Was time wasted putting out Craglorn, when core game fixes were needed more?

Carnage2K4 · May 2014

Yes, they should have focused on Class balance, Bots, PvP, Bugs, Gold Sink, etc

leave the many behind to give the few more to do, IMO they sacrificed the normal speed players to satisfy the 10% who have maxed out their characters, for the sake of being able to advertise more... Craglorn, Craglorn, Craglorn is all we have heard about the last month... what info do we have on what the hell is being done about bots? "we are working on it" means nothing if they get worse after a major update...

Maleficus · May 2014

I do not agree with either 1 nor 2, but shall respond with my thoughts.

It is pretty stupid to assume an MMO, a game that is going to support likely hundreds of thousands to millions of players is going to be perfect at launch. No MMO to my knowledge has ever had tons of end game content and a bug free launch. NONE..

By now you would think these people that just have to get to the highest level as fast as possible would have learned. It takes most games of this size/scope a year or 2 to mature into something with as much content and bug free play as an existing MMO...

Think about all the time it took to design the maps, then design the quests and the questing system, design the crafting system, ect then develop 6 million in game assets, create thousands of quests with full voice acted cut scenes.

The same thing happened to SWTOR.. You are suppose to take your time and enjoy the damn story and work on your crafting etc.. The end game content is not gonna be there right away at least not much of it, is it ever? This is why they took the time to fully voice act the damn questing system/story etc...

This game has been in development for years, it has millions of things that had to be created to make it happen. There is no way that every single one of the problems could have been found or fixed prior to .launch. They could have never anticipated what the mob was gonna like and what it was not going to like...

At least ZOS had the damn forethought to announce and have a content update ready to appease the stupid as# competitive players that think they have to be the FIRST or the BEST to do something....

I have been taking my time playing this game and have had almost no issues playing it, yeah sure a quest bug here and there; the client crashes every now and then. I have not had anything but a good time playing this game....

TLDR..

Mablung · May 2014

Yes, they should have focused on Class balance, Bots, PvP, Bugs, Gold Sink, etc

I keep seeing this 'stop having expectations about a game at launch' argument.

I have 2 questions for those who like this argument:

When is it ok to start having expectations?
When does launch officially end?

Preachan · May 2014

No we really needed Craglorn, I am happy with how things were implemented.

New content is important.
Fixing a game for month and month won't keep the players.
New content does.
(Look at TSW - some fixes, but not enough, and no new content for ages - no wonder no one playes it before the next major update *lol*)

And I guess there is a team for fixes, who don't work on new content.
So both should be possible.

gurluasb16_ESO · May 2014

No we really needed Craglorn, I am happy with how things were implemented.

No, Craglorn is a lifesafer with the Anomaly spots.
I finally managed to catch up and not be underleveled anymore.

Mablung · May 2014

Yes, they should have focused on Class balance, Bots, PvP, Bugs, Gold Sink, etc

gurluasb16_ESO wrote: »

No, Craglorn is a lifesafer with the Anomaly spots.
I finally managed to catch up and not be underleveled anymore.

Catch up to who? The other 50 of you who are VR12? It's not a race folks.

gurluasb16_ESO · May 2014

No we really needed Craglorn, I am happy with how things were implemented.

Mablung wrote: »

gurluasb16_ESO wrote: »

No, Craglorn is a lifesafer with the Anomaly spots.
I finally managed to catch up and not be underleveled anymore.

Catch up to who? The other 50 of you who are VR12? It's not a race folks.

I was in a VR2 zone as a VR1 for a quarter of the zone.

Maleficus · May 2014

I do not agree with either 1 nor 2, but shall respond with my thoughts.

Mablung wrote: »

I keep seeing this 'stop having expectations about a game at launch' argument.

I have 2 questions for those who like this argument:
When is it ok to start having expectations?

When does launch officially end?

It is always ok to have expectations, just not un friggin realistic ones.
An mmo is like an ever evolving organism, launch never ends...

Mablung · May 2014

Yes, they should have focused on Class balance, Bots, PvP, Bugs, Gold Sink, etc

Maleficus wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

I keep seeing this 'stop having expectations about a game at launch' argument.

I have 2 questions for those who like this argument:
When is it ok to start having expectations?

When does launch officially end?

It is always ok to have expectations, just not un friggin realistic ones.
An mmo is like an ever evolving organism, launch never ends...

So who defines 'realistic' expectations? It is illogical to assume launch never ends. Developers know that there is a point a, point b, point c, etc, so yes it most definitely ends.

Zarkaz · May 2014

No we really needed Craglorn, I am happy with how things were implemented.

There was nothing to do at V10.

Maleficus · May 2014

I do not agree with either 1 nor 2, but shall respond with my thoughts.

Mablung wrote: »

Maleficus wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

I keep seeing this 'stop having expectations about a game at launch' argument.

I have 2 questions for those who like this argument:
When is it ok to start having expectations?

When does launch officially end?

It is always ok to have expectations, just not un friggin realistic ones.
An mmo is like an ever evolving organism, launch never ends...

So who defines 'realistic' expectations? It is illogical to assume launch never ends. Developers know that there is a point a, point b, point c, etc, so yes it most definitely ends.

I was just being a smart ass.. a Games launch is nothing more than them letting the public play the game finally in it's (for the lack of better term) launch day state..

Every MMO is undergoing regular change and I would wager no group has ever had everything perfect when they first start letting the public play their creation...

I would look at an MMO's launch as more of a 'Hey are game is mostly playable at this point, the story is done, all the initial leveling quests are in and for the most part everything works'. With that said you should look at an MMO launch as more of a chance to check out the game and help the devs then turn it into what the community was hoping it was gonna be....

That is pretty much what happens is it not?

Celurian · May 2014

Yes, they should have focused on Class balance, Bots, PvP, Bugs, Gold Sink, etc

Mablung wrote: »

Maleficus wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

I keep seeing this 'stop having expectations about a game at launch' argument.

I have 2 questions for those who like this argument:
When is it ok to start having expectations?

When does launch officially end?

It is always ok to have expectations, just not un friggin realistic ones.
An mmo is like an ever evolving organism, launch never ends...

So who defines 'realistic' expectations? It is illogical to assume launch never ends. Developers know that there is a point a, point b, point c, etc, so yes it most definitely ends.

I really like you.

Arreyanne · May 2014

Yes, they should have focused on Class balance, Bots, PvP, Bugs, Gold Sink, etc

Zarkaz wrote: »

There was nothing to do at V10.

And now there is nothing to do at VR12

wrlifeboil · May 2014

No we really needed Craglorn, I am happy with how things were implemented.

Craglorn had to released before Wildstar launched so the VR10s could be convinced to stick around.

Also, ZOS did say they were going to bring out Craglorn soon after launch. It would have been dumb to let content that was ready to be released just sit idle on some dev's computer.

Korah_Eaglecry · May 2014

Yes, they should have focused on Class balance, Bots, PvP, Bugs, Gold Sink, etc

TicToc wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

It really doesn't matter to the paying customer that there are multiple teams working on the game. I think most understand that. It is what the paying customer perceives that should be most important to the company. In this case it appears that they are catering to an invisible crowd of end gamers.

People have rushed to get to end game PvE content only to come here and complain about how lackluster the content is. Players are still rushing to get to the highest rank because that is what trained monkeys do in MMOs (and then come here to complain about end game content).

My belief is that customer retention (dollars) is more important than appeasing any sense of internal or external politics and we should have seen more fixes and balances in place before the marketing and release of Craglorn.

The perception is Zenimax does not care about the paying customer. They are going to put out what they want to put out, how they want, when they want. This perceived attitude is what destroys games and sends them to the F2P graveyard.

Perception is everything.

If the paying customer wants to remain ignorant that is their business, but if you have different teams working on different things, perceptions is irrelevant, especially if said paid customers are told their are different teams working on them. Were they supposed to just sit on the content and not release because certain people cannot grasp simple concepts?

"Invisible crowd of endgamers"? i don't even know what that means. Endgamers are a big part of every MMO, and despite what your comments seem to suggest, they are paying customers too.

Ignoring your ignorant insults for the moment, people race to the highest rank because for many people the end-game content is what is most important. People enjoy raiding and PvP. That does not make them worse customers than you.

Craglorn was initially supposed to be in at release, but didn't make the cutoff. It was, however, promised that it would be released about a month after launch. They weren't marketing Craglorn, they were delivering on their promise, a promise made to their "paying customers". I'm not sure how keeping a promise shows that you don't care.

Agreed, fixes should be made before future content is added, but Craglorn was already a guaranteed addition that had been in the works for a very long time.

Did you ignore what he wrote?

Its not that people dont understand the difference. But that doesnt mean that they had to release 1.1.2 when they did. Or that 1.1.2 had to contain Craglorn.

They could of simply put Craglorn on the back burner for another month. While they tried new tactics/took another swing at the bugs before adding a new layer of content (which is more code) to the game.

Now we have Post-1.1.2 Bugs mixed in with the Pre-1.1.2 Bugs.

Obviously you cant squash all bugs. But with the severity of the current issues. New Content shouldnt be on the top of the list for priority. The bugs, gold spammers and exploitive gaps which allow bots should be.

No matter how much content they add. As long as they ignore or casually go about swatting the current issues. Newcomers will not be willing to stick around and drop 15 dollars on this. The only reason this game was popular in the first place was because Elder Scrolls was in the title. That wont mean a **** thing when this game hits PS4/XboxOne and people get a really good look at how poorly managed this game and its issues are.

ForTheRealm · May 2014

Yes, they should have focused on Class balance, Bots, PvP, Bugs, Gold Sink, etc

rattbagrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Celurian wrote: »

All of the People voted "NO" are obvioesly Dragonknights or Nightblades.

Not at all, the people voting No are the ones that understand the new content team is separate from those who fix bugs. Meaning new content has nothing to do with bug fixing, making this thread and it's poll invalid.

It does not matter if the teams are separate or no.
What is important that ZoS is adding a new content on top of a broken mechanics - you don't add another level to a building if its base is broken.
Craglorn itself maybe excellent, but it will not shine if it surrounded by bugs.

Grao · May 2014

I do not agree with either 1 nor 2, but shall respond with my thoughts.

Lets put it like this, Craglorn was definitely not a waste of time, but its release could have been delayed by a week or two if that meant better game stability and more essential bug fixes.

The new area is very good for a few reasons. The main one being those interested in forcing their level up to enjoy late content can do so far more easily in Craglorn then in the veteran areas. It eliminates the need to grind quest (which was the only way to level at the high veteran ranks).

On the other hand, bugs to classes at this point should have been addressed. Its been nearly two months since the release and we still have a ridiculous amount of bugs with nightblades; it is testing the players patience. As for balancing, that is a on going process. No MMO ever stops balancing skills, it is normal that certain classes will, for a while, be stronger, then be patched and become weaker; it is the nature of the beast.

What I am hoping for now from ZoS - Better choices from the development team. Bugs with skill have to be patched, that is urgent. Skill Trees that are clearly weak need small tweaks and buffs. Classes that are too strong have to be toned down a little - simple number shifting. Game stability needs to be addressed as well, both in PvE and PvP.

Selstad · May 2014

I do not agree with either 1 nor 2, but shall respond with my thoughts.

Class balancing and such is something that will go on for years. WoW has been running for 10 years and they still haven't figured it out. Imagine if we had to wait for Craglorn until they'd balanced the classes, now that wouldn't be a smart move.

As for fixing the problems, they are, but what I think they really need to do is get their QA department working again. Some obvious flaws are left in the game that should have been easy to see, such as Kardala grinding. Other errors are a bit more complex. I do however think that Zenimax is struggling with the balance of running an MMO and developing one. They can develop one, but I'm not convinced they have the expertise to run one.

Turelus · May 2014

I do not agree with either 1 nor 2, but shall respond with my thoughts.

Okay. Apparently people have missed what's been said many times on this forums.

They have been working on issues since day one of early access.
Let me write that again in bold and caps.
THEY HAVE BEEN WORKING ON ISSUES SINCE DAY ONE OF EARLY ACCESS.

If they had devoted all their time to Craglorn you would have seen no patches. Take a look at where this game is now to where it was on day one of early access and tell us how it's not a great deal better.
Most major quest issues are fixes, a duping exploit fixed and abusers banned, bank bug fixed, many tiny issues fixed.

Craglorn was announced and hinted at before the game shipped, meaning they were already working on it then. Throwing more developers at an issue doesn't mean it's going to get fixed faster, in fact most programmers or developers will tell you it works the other way around, and they start to trip each other up or get in the way.

Now unless anyone on these forums has a friend working at or works themselves at ZOS we don't 100% know how their development teams are split up, but I go back and say again they have been working on issues since day one of early access. They haven't ignored any issues we have put forward, Craglorn didn't seem to stop the month of bug fixes we got before than and the 1.1.2 update for all its own issues fixed a lot more issues with the game.

Also what do you want this thread and poll to achieve, we can't go back in time and fix it even if they did devote every resource to Craglorn. Instead of more threads complaining about things which can't be fixed start making long constructive threads about aspects of the game you're uphappy with and how to fix them!
Give numbers, show your working, give reasons for and against your ideas and help make the game better.

Posting "They wasted dev time on something rahhhhh!!!!" has done nothing to fix anything and just creates more annoying polls and whine threads on the forums.

(Yes I'm in a bad mood this morning).

Lovely · May 2014

I do not agree with either 1 nor 2, but shall respond with my thoughts.

Well, basically I think both were needed. Content for those who wanted that type of content and bug fixing.
I actually think they did try both, but it worked as it did.