A fix for OP builds of all kinds

Cogo

Hehe, I read the addon section yesterday (I dont use a single addon and do not plan on it), that there already is a well working simulation of any build you can do. I know WoW have several of these.

I played wow total 5-6-7 years and I have never used or even seen one being used. I simply dont find any usefulness in them. but thats me. I like to learn by experience.

But yep! You got me. Both MMOs have this softwhere (which wasnt in either case made by the game maker) and was probebly used alot.

You got me there!

However, for the devs to use some tool in a very complexed blanace calculation, consideration and add all kinds of possible ways to blanace the best. I highly doubt they use a software and then patch accordingly. Because these softwares are "char" specific. In ESO case, they would have to run thousands of these tests.

I dont know what they are using, but they have managers who are respondsible for specific areas, who work together, to iron out what the best solution for the game would be...not just in this case, the class.

vicNBitis

Cogo wrote: »

However, for the devs to use some tool in a very complexed blanace calculation, consideration and add all kinds of possible ways to blanace the best. I highly doubt they use a software and then patch accordingly. Because these softwares are "char" specific. In ESO case, they would have to run thousands of these tests.

I dont know what they are using, but they have managers who are respondsible for specific areas, who work together, to iron out what the best solution for the game would be...not just in this case, the class.

I don't mean an addon. Here's an example from 5 years ago from WoW. It's a complex simulation created by...a player. Run 50,000 times by...a player.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/47830-simulationcraft-for-warlocks-403a-numbers-at-80-and-85/

I refuse to believe Zenimax is just willynilly plugging in changes with their fingers crossed. They have simulations they can run. There's no excuse for the imbalances and failed attempts to correct them.

alexj4596b14_ESO

vicNBitis wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

However, for the devs to use some tool in a very complexed blanace calculation, consideration and add all kinds of possible ways to blanace the best. I highly doubt they use a software and then patch accordingly. Because these softwares are "char" specific. In ESO case, they would have to run thousands of these tests.

I dont know what they are using, but they have managers who are respondsible for specific areas, who work together, to iron out what the best solution for the game would be...not just in this case, the class.

I don't mean an addon. Here's an example from 5 years ago from WoW. It's a complex simulation created by...a player. Run 50,000 times by...a player.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/47830-simulationcraft-for-warlocks-403a-numbers-at-80-and-85/

I refuse to believe Zenimax is just willynilly plugging in changes with their fingers crossed. They have simulations they can run. There's no excuse for the imbalances and failed attempts to correct them.

i think its more along the line of they just have not tested every combination, which is why we still have OP builds. Another thing too look at is player skill those programs cant account for the human element.

vicNBitis

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

i think its more along the line of they just have not tested every combination, which is why we still have OP builds. Another thing too look at is player skill those programs cant account for the human element.

If they haven't then they're seriously negligent.

Player skill really doesn't matter. A simulation is going to be ideal--zero delay, zero lag, zero DOT clipping/overwriting, etc. No player no matter how good should ever be able to consistently duplicate it. It just lets you know that this number right here is the best you will ever see. If someone somehow does better then you know something's seriously wrong. It's why Zeni's "we're looking into it" or "we're watching this closely" is BS. They either know it or they don't. Hell, there's not even any RNG in this game. If a skill hits for 281 the first time you use it it's going to hit for 281 the next time and the 3,498th time.

Thechemicals

I prefer dynamics in a game. Op builds are an indicator that you can do something amazing with the right ideas. However, exploitation means something is being used improperly or against its intended use for an advantage over others. Caltrops is an exploitation and bolt escape is not. Dragon standard is a dynamic and stacking damage on vampire bats ultimate was an exploitation.

Players who have great ideas and look for special and unique ways to play, create these builds and enjoy them. Players whose personal builds are destroyed by dynamics are responsible to improve, not ask for help nerfing.

The game is unique and each class presents a unique way of playing. Each class has a different approach to engaging enemies and access to additional skill trees and special gear. DragonKnight is a very in your face class so you will see powerful effects and survivability. Sorcerers are a powerful dps burst class but dont rush into battle like Dk's, but instead have escapes like bolt escape. Nightblades have invisibility, and defense shredding skills, and powerful dps. Templars have shields/heals/low cost debuff spells/ and smart counter spells like backlash and eclipse. You wont always see the other enemies hitting you because they dont engage like a DK, so you may believe they are overpowered when in most cases, youre being hit by multiple enemies and reflects.

Obscure

Best DPS spec: Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Tank spec: Dragonknight, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Healer spec: Templar/Nightblade/Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Hmmm, I just can't seem to figure out where the problem might be coming from... If only there was some kind of common element that I could narrow down as a root cause...oh I give up it's too hard, let's spend three months developing a system that arbitrarily applies a debuff to certain combinations of skills.

alexj4596b14_ESO

Obscure wrote: »

Best DPS spec: Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Tank spec: Dragonknight, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Healer spec: Templar/Nightblade/Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Hmmm, I just can't seem to figure out where the problem might be coming from... If only there was some kind of common element that I could narrow down as a root cause...oh I give up it's too hard, let's spend three months developing a system that arbitrarily applies a debuff to certain combinations of skills.

first off your "BEST" is so horribly wrong. people need too stop putting classes in category for the love of the gods. Iv seen Templar do 1k dps, and Scorc tanks that don't take damage from bosses or adds. Its DUMB too categorize Classes in this game. Also the only thing Scorc have for healing that helps is endless mana poll, however they also offer the group the lest we can not buff or augment group damage in the slightest, DK,Templars, and NBs offer more group orientated ability's then scorc

Obscure

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Best DPS spec: Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Tank spec: Dragonknight, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Healer spec: Templar/Nightblade/Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Hmmm, I just can't seem to figure out where the problem might be coming from... If only there was some kind of common element that I could narrow down as a root cause...oh I give up it's too hard, let's spend three months developing a system that arbitrarily applies a debuff to certain combinations of skills.

first off your "BEST" is so horribly wrong. people need too stop putting classes in category for the love of the gods. Iv seen Templar do 1k dps, and Scorc tanks that don't take damage from bosses or adds. Its DUMB too categorize Classes in this game. Also the only thing Scorc have for healing that helps is endless mana poll, however they also offer the group the lest we can not buff or augment group damage in the slightest, DK,Templars, and NBs offer more group orientated ability's then scorc

Go find (or make) the videos the the best DPS, Tanks, and Healers you can find, then post them here. I'll then compare them to the video evidence I have and we'll see who's horribly wrong. Hell I'll even bet you 25k gold that I'm right. You think your right? Well let's put some gold on it.

Go on. I'll wait.

alexj4596b14_ESO

Obscure wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Best DPS spec: Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Tank spec: Dragonknight, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Healer spec: Templar/Nightblade/Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Hmmm, I just can't seem to figure out where the problem might be coming from... If only there was some kind of common element that I could narrow down as a root cause...oh I give up it's too hard, let's spend three months developing a system that arbitrarily applies a debuff to certain combinations of skills.

first off your "BEST" is so horribly wrong. people need too stop putting classes in category for the love of the gods. Iv seen Templar do 1k dps, and Scorc tanks that don't take damage from bosses or adds. Its DUMB too categorize Classes in this game. Also the only thing Scorc have for healing that helps is endless mana poll, however they also offer the group the lest we can not buff or augment group damage in the slightest, DK,Templars, and NBs offer more group orientated ability's then scorc

Go find (or make) the videos the the best DPS, Tanks, and Healers you can find, then post them here. I'll then compare them to the video evidence I have and we'll see who's horribly wrong. Hell I'll even bet you 25k gold that I'm right. You think your right? Well let's put some gold on it.

Go on. I'll wait.

first my point was there is NO best all viable, elitism is not going too in courage different play styles, or builds. that was my point, right now DKs have ability that syngerize with almost everything in the game, that is going too change, ZoS will not allow a GOD class too persist. Scorcs have INSANE amount of dps with 1 type of single target build that is going too change. People need too stop demanding that you play 1 class too do 1 type of thing in this game, that was my point.

On another note, the above classes you listed make the EASIEST of each roll too fill for the most part

Obscure

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Best DPS spec: Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Tank spec: Dragonknight, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Healer spec: Templar/Nightblade/Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Hmmm, I just can't seem to figure out where the problem might be coming from... If only there was some kind of common element that I could narrow down as a root cause...oh I give up it's too hard, let's spend three months developing a system that arbitrarily applies a debuff to certain combinations of skills.

first off your "BEST" is so horribly wrong. people need too stop putting classes in category for the love of the gods. Iv seen Templar do 1k dps, and Scorc tanks that don't take damage from bosses or adds. Its DUMB too categorize Classes in this game. Also the only thing Scorc have for healing that helps is endless mana poll, however they also offer the group the lest we can not buff or augment group damage in the slightest, DK,Templars, and NBs offer more group orientated ability's then scorc

Go find (or make) the videos the the best DPS, Tanks, and Healers you can find, then post them here. I'll then compare them to the video evidence I have and we'll see who's horribly wrong. Hell I'll even bet you 25k gold that I'm right. You think your right? Well let's put some gold on it.

Go on. I'll wait.

first my point was there is NO best all viable, elitism is not going too in courage different play styles, or builds. that was my point, right now DKs have ability that syngerize with almost everything in the game, that is going too change, ZoS will not allow a GOD class too persist. Scorcs have INSANE amount of dps with 1 type of single target build that is going too change. People need too stop demanding that you play 1 class too do 1 type of thing in this game, that was my point.

On another note, the above classes you listed make the EASIEST of each roll too fill for the most part

My point is that there is, whether you or I like it or not. You also seem to be concedeing the point. Wager to rich for your blood? How about just a friendly wager, loser owes the winner an apology?

Even in the unlikely event I lose the bet, I'd make a side bet that all of the best builds we'd compare are light armor and Magicka specialized. Which was the actual point of my initial post before you detailed it concerning some idealistic "any class any play style" tangent. Irrelevant. There currently is a best DPS, a best Tank, and any class except DK can be a best healer. I anxiously await being proven "horribly wrong". I'm a big boy, I can take it.

alexj4596b14_ESO

Obscure wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Best DPS spec: Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Tank spec: Dragonknight, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Healer spec: Templar/Nightblade/Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Hmmm, I just can't seem to figure out where the problem might be coming from... If only there was some kind of common element that I could narrow down as a root cause...oh I give up it's too hard, let's spend three months developing a system that arbitrarily applies a debuff to certain combinations of skills.

first off your "BEST" is so horribly wrong. people need too stop putting classes in category for the love of the gods. Iv seen Templar do 1k dps, and Scorc tanks that don't take damage from bosses or adds. Its DUMB too categorize Classes in this game. Also the only thing Scorc have for healing that helps is endless mana poll, however they also offer the group the lest we can not buff or augment group damage in the slightest, DK,Templars, and NBs offer more group orientated ability's then scorc

Go find (or make) the videos the the best DPS, Tanks, and Healers you can find, then post them here. I'll then compare them to the video evidence I have and we'll see who's horribly wrong. Hell I'll even bet you 25k gold that I'm right. You think your right? Well let's put some gold on it.

Go on. I'll wait.

first my point was there is NO best all viable, elitism is not going too in courage different play styles, or builds. that was my point, right now DKs have ability that syngerize with almost everything in the game, that is going too change, ZoS will not allow a GOD class too persist. Scorcs have INSANE amount of dps with 1 type of single target build that is going too change. People need too stop demanding that you play 1 class too do 1 type of thing in this game, that was my point.

On another note, the above classes you listed make the EASIEST of each roll too fill for the most part

My point is that there is, whether you or I like it or not. You also seem to be concedeing the point. Wager to rich for your blood? How about just a friendly wager, loser owes the winner an apology?

Even in the unlikely event I lose the bet, I'd make a side bet that all of the best builds we'd compare are light armor and Magicka specialized. Which was the actual point of my initial post before you detailed it concerning some idealistic "any class any play style" tangent. Irrelevant. There currently is a best DPS, a best Tank, and any class except DK can be a best healer. I anxiously await being proven "horribly wrong". I'm a big boy, I can take it.

Still missing the point, Example right now im setting up a dps spec for my scorc tank, im vet 6, all my gear is broken, i have no bounces for the amour occuring atm and im still hitting 400-500 single target dps, and AoE is 1k. Its so Easy as a Dps scorc its not funny, im melting stuff before they even are within 1m of me. Scorc DPS is easy which makes it more viable and much stronger because MORE people can achive the same result with this class. The same goes for DK's that class is a easy tanking class. they have a cheep CC + synergy, they have shields, a self heal with stamina regin, a Ult that makes tanking stuff even easy if they can generate Ult quickly, Templar's are the easy support class/healer, they have many debuffs, vary strong heals, and damage enhancers. As long as you set your stats up half correct you can achieve amazing results with each roll, however NB healers are better over all they don't run out of mana, they add over all damage too the group and such, Templar DPS AoE or Single is achieved by using the correct Power UP skill together with there weapon skills and can achieve amazing DPS Number across the board but its not EASY. That is MY point, just because people have not put videos up or screen shots dose not mean the above classes are best at anything, they just easily achieve those rolls. just saying....and on the betting part LOL im way too broke too bet 100 gold! which is why my amour is still broken lol

ShedsHisTail

Obscure wrote: »

Best DPS spec: Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Tank spec: Dragonknight, light armor, Magicka specialized

Best Healer spec: Templar/Nightblade/Sorcerer, light armor, Magicka specialized

Hmmm, I just can't seem to figure out where the problem might be coming from... If only there was some kind of common element that I could narrow down as a root cause...oh I give up it's too hard, let's spend three months developing a system that arbitrarily applies a debuff to certain combinations of skills.

You left off the weapon of choice.
I'm gonna guess it's Staff (either Destro of Resto).

Obscure

@alexj4596b14_ESO
When it comes to the term BEST, there's little room for interpretation. Based solely on game mechanics there's class skills that are the BEST option for a role making that class the BEST at performing it. Whether or not you can fill a role successfully or not with your build and ability doesn't make it the BEST, hell it may just be flat out sub optimal. Just because it works doesn't make it the BEST. There's only one first place trophy in each category and class skills (active and passive) most certainly contribute to them. Every class is DPS/Tank/Healer optional, but they are not all DPS/Tank/Healer optimal.

@ShedsHisTail
Kinda falls into the whole "Magicka specialized" segment, but yeah. Every one of the Top Slot builds is running around with a destro stick, a resto stick, or both.

Lepratul

This forum is full of weepy whine kids and this kids knows only one solution nerf others not me. Problem is only between monitor and chair.

ShedsHisTail

Lepratul wrote: »

This forum is full of weepy whine kids and this kids knows only one solution nerf others not me. Problem is only between monitor and chair.

It's the desk!
I knew it was the desk. That ***.

mssunlight1974neb18_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

The only thing Sorc needs is a fix for the Daedric Summoning line and a few other random skills that are just bad (Daedric Mines, Rune Prison). Problem with Sorcs is, they can be really good but only if built in a few certain ways. There's little diversity because they have so many skills that are garbage and others that are really good.

Daedric Mines are great, especially when morphed to Daedric Minefield. They're an absolute staple on my Sorc Tank. 5 mines = 25% self-heal, a bit of damage and a good chance your next hit is going to crit. Happy days! Plus they last 36 seconds, so you can cast them shortly before combat and let your magicka regenerate before pulling to make them essentially free. (This is assuming you have a full set of Dark Magic passives of course, but why wouldn't you eh?)

Monkeyshoeslive

This is the worst idea in the history of worst ideas