Templars, this is how you counter dark talon + standard

Baphomet

So, got in a fight with a cunning templar last night with my dragonknight. Had him locked up in a good talon+inhale+standard rotation but instead of panicking, this templar just sat it through while casting blazing shield and some healing.

When the zerg finally got me down, I could tell from death recap that all the damage absorbed by his blazing shield was being returned for ~800 damage while he was able to just sit through the standard using his sun shield.

Normally I would be reluctant to share too many good tactics but one derserves to be known in order to reduce a lot of people's frustration with DKs.

Niffo

I can't tell if this is a joke post or not. It took a zerg to kill you, if they hadn't been there how would the Templar have killed you? Sun Shield stops magicka recovery, so it's not sustainable.

Baphomet

Badly phrased then. I had the templar pretty isolated until the zerg arrived and soul shreded me. Combat log read something like this:

2. Blazing shield - 749 dmg
3. Blazing shield - 489 dmg
4. Soul assault - 1080 dmg
5. Light attack - 102 dmg

The templar was fully capable of sustaining through my talon+inhale+lava whip+standard assault using blazing shield, healing (and blocking i'm assuming).

Jeremy_gelber_ESO

Baphomet wrote: »

Badly phrased then. I had the templar pretty isolated until the zerg arrived and soul shreded me. Combat log read something like this:

2. Blazing shield - 749 dmg
3. Blazing shield - 489 dmg
4. Soul assault - 1080 dmg
5. Light attack - 102 dmg

The templar was fully capable of sustaining through my talon+inhale+lava whip+standard assault using blazing shield, healing (and blocking i'm assuming).

Dont worry. This will be stealth nerfed soon. Cant have templars doing anything other than healing.

so the wonderfull tactic is stand there and get hit and hope your dumb enough to kill yourself on his shield.

Axer

Baphomet wrote: »

The templar was fully capable of sustaining through my talon+inhale+lava whip+standard assault using blazing shield, healing (and blocking i'm assuming).

NO he was not.

As another poster mention, sun shield disables all magicka regen.
Templars also don't have insane passives that allow them to constantly regenerate all 3 stats. 1v1 they have zero way to up stamina fast. So blocking, theyd run out and die. Magick runs out they die too.

Templars have ZERO chance in pvp against a smart DK now. Even ones going full *** defensive like that guy (Which would grant him zero ability to actually kill you since so many slots were used on defensive abilities)

PvP is retardedly unbalanced. If you aren't a DK or Sorcerer, it's just not even any fun. NB may be fun after the 1.2 fixes.. Templars seem to be on the road to no where in pvp land. Aside from healing, they just can't do anything useful out there.

Baphomet

Quite opinionated for a guy who wasn't there. And wrong, too. If you can't kill anything with a templar, clearly you have no idea what you're doing. But I guess I don't have to point that out. Your post does that well enough on its own.

JacobJ

Actually @Axer i'm a NB, and I constantly kill all the classes and have quite a bit of fun. Yes a lot of NB abilities are broken so it makes it hard for some builds to work, but that shouldn't stop you from having fun playing the class you want to play. If you really enjoy a class you will figure out a way to play it which works and produces results.

@Baphomet That is really interesting that the Templar chose to do that. Hats off to him for sticking it out for what was probably a very surprising turn of events as most people run as far away as possible once Standard is dropped. It is nice to see people using their own abilities to counter other the other class' "op" abilities. Also, hats off to you for recognizing this guy for a good plan other than whining about how it's somehow "op" if someone manages to beat them in an unexpected way as most other people do on the forums.

Kevaliji

JacobJ wrote: »

Actually @Axer i'm a NB, and I constantly kill all the classes and have quite a bit of fun. Yes a lot of NB abilities are broken so it makes it hard for some builds to work, but that shouldn't stop you from having fun playing the class you want to play. If you really enjoy a class you will figure out a way to play it which works and produces results.

^This

Ive had no trouble in pvp with my nightblade. I primarily solo gank (which is great for NB) but when i do run with groups i always have a resto staff ready. This worked even before the patch.

pecheckler

If a templar is using blazing shield and healing to live through that then they have no mana left and had to be using a resto staff. Any any resto staff wielding templar using blazing shield is an idiot. If you factor in the lost mana regeneration then blazing shield costs over 600 mana when not broken from damage. While being slapped with the signature DK overpowered stupidity manuver, using cleansing ritual + healing ritual would be a far more intelligent decision as it will heal for more, cleanse, and especially since it aids allies.

Baphomet

So this guy found a viable alternative to cleanse, and a possible counter to the long lamented dark talons rotantion, and he is an idiot for it? His strategy might not work every time, and maybe he got lucky this time, but credit goes to him pulling it off whoever he was.

ThatHappyCat

Blazing Shield has two problems. The most obvious one which everyone has pointed out is it stops all magicka regeneration. The other problem is the range of its blast is short, so much so that minor differences in elevation can cause it to miss on adjacent targets. If you're getting hit by Blazing Shield's damage, you're doing it wrong.

JoyEnergiser

Who says blazing shield would last the full 6 seconds, it is probably dispelled after 2-3 seconds effectively HEALING you the amount AND returning damage. to the attacker.

Hell the shield could be dispelled in the first second if you use it at the right time you wouldn't lose more than 2 seconds of mana regen. Abilities like Blazing shield and eclipse are quite underrated.

Axer

Kevaliji wrote: »

^This

Ive had no trouble in pvp with my nightblade. I primarily solo gank (which is great for NB) but when i do run with groups i always have a resto staff ready. This worked even before the patch.

Lke I said, Nighblade, maybe. especially after the 1.2. This threads topic is not NB, its tmeplars.

Templars are horribly garbage at PvP.

And I play one with the best gear in the game (pre craglorn), run pvp raid groups of 24 players with players wearning full ebon, wormcult, and do everything in my power to really try.

So do thousands of others.

Yet look at the most active pvp campaign:
wabbajack:
Look at the new by class leaderboards:
DKs:
10 million+ points for many
Sorcs:
Same 10million+ for many many
NBs:
Lots sit in the 6-7 mil range. one or two have 9 million. The guys with the highest scores? They know for a fact they got their primarily because some very skilled DKs and Sorcerers helped them. Sure NB can destroy noobs too with the right build, but they can't survive, cc, range, aoe or escape battle like their DK and sorcerer breathern.

Templars:
Laughably behind.
The highest is 5million.

There is a reason DKs have more then DOUBLED templars average scores in this game. If you dont believe that, you have no clue about pvp.

Yes player skill > class. A great templar WILL beat a really badly played DK. I've killed DKs 2 on 1 on my templar a few times. They were insanely horrible players that had no idea how to play their class.

But any player with a functional brain, basic pvp experience and a vr12 DK will not lose to any templar, not matter how good that templar is.

Still_Mind

Axer wrote: »

But any player with a functional brain, basic pvp experience and a vr12 DK will not lose to any templar, not matter how good that templar is.

It's this kind of defeatist behaviour that both, poisons communities, and provides unrealistically skewed feedback to the developers.

Why? It's easy to pick up, because it's easy to justify personal shortcomings with external factors (even if they are indeed present, but massive exaggeration ensues), and because playing the victim is a popular (and thus, something with which many people identify) means to achieve an end. An avalanche of complaining and angst sweeps through a forum, and leads to developers making rushed balancing decisions.

Also, something that eludes too many people. This isn't a 1v1 tournament fighting game. This is an MMO. Some classes are *always* stronger 1v1. But other classes have utility that makes them more efficient force multipliers.


To summarize. Templars do need buffs (they have some cool mechanics, but they need to be capitalized on in class design, kinda like they did with the DKs as choke point class), but stomping feet, screaming and rolling over in a feat of showoff weakness isn't the way to provide feedback.

Nox_Aeterna

Still_Mind wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

But any player with a functional brain, basic pvp experience and a vr12 DK will not lose to any templar, not matter how good that templar is.

It's this kind of defeatist behaviour that both, poisons communities, and provides unrealistically skewed feedback to the developers.

Why? It's easy to pick up, because it's easy to justify personal shortcomings with external factors (even if they are indeed present, but massive exaggeration ensues), and because playing the victim is a popular (and thus, something with which many people identify) means to achieve an end. An avalanche of complaining and angst sweeps through a forum, and leads to developers making rushed balancing decisions.

Also, something that eludes too many people. This isn't a 1v1 tournament fighting game. This is an MMO. Some classes are *always* stronger 1v1. But other classes have utility that makes them more efficient force multipliers.


To summarize. Templars do need buffs (they have some cool mechanics, but they need to be capitalized on in class design, kinda like they did with the DKs as choke point class), but stomping feet, screaming and rolling over in a feat of showoff weakness isn't the way to provide feedback.

Probably what will cost zen the most subs in the long run , is exactly that.

Because this game is so open , players only grasp where their classes stand after a LOT of hours in the game and i mean a LOT.

Zen never said to the players which classes should be used for each play style , instead they keep up that lie "play the way you like ...".

Player come into the game and believe most classes will be able to aim for the same results with the right builds , which will not happen now and maybe never.

After someone notices this they either reroll , complain to zen to balance things out or leave the game.

Im in the complain phase , which usually is followed by the quit phase.

Still_Mind

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

But any player with a functional brain, basic pvp experience and a vr12 DK will not lose to any templar, not matter how good that templar is.

It's this kind of defeatist behaviour that both, poisons communities, and provides unrealistically skewed feedback to the developers.

Why? It's easy to pick up, because it's easy to justify personal shortcomings with external factors (even if they are indeed present, but massive exaggeration ensues), and because playing the victim is a popular (and thus, something with which many people identify) means to achieve an end. An avalanche of complaining and angst sweeps through a forum, and leads to developers making rushed balancing decisions.

Also, something that eludes too many people. This isn't a 1v1 tournament fighting game. This is an MMO. Some classes are *always* stronger 1v1. But other classes have utility that makes them more efficient force multipliers.


To summarize. Templars do need buffs (they have some cool mechanics, but they need to be capitalized on in class design, kinda like they did with the DKs as choke point class), but stomping feet, screaming and rolling over in a feat of showoff weakness isn't the way to provide feedback.

Probably what will cost zen the most subs in the long run , is exactly that.

Because this game is so open , players only grasp where their classes stand after a LOT of hours in the game and i mean a LOT.

Zen never said to the players which classes should be used for each play style , instead they keep up that lie "play the way you like ...".

Player come into the game and believe most classes will be able to aim for the same results with the right builds , which will not happen now and maybe never.

After someone notices this they either reroll , complain to zen to balance things out or leave the game.

Im in the complain phase , which usually is followed by the quit phase.

I get what you're saying, but, once again, it's an MMO. It cannot be balanced, by definition. Especially one so open. The game is _VERY_ young, which means there's a _LOT_ of fixing and balancing ahead.

Also, nothing forbids you to *play* what you like (my latest project is a 100% weapon\FG-based Nightblade-gimped by definition, which is taking his first steps into VR content. By my estimations, shouldn't have any trouble against anything but cc-immune group bosses. Does pretty well in 1v1 pvp, too, but I do use class stealth and Ultimate). Yes, some of those "what-you-like" options will be considerably less powerful. But that is what balancing is for. Give it time. Let them fix broken classes and mechanics, then let them polish the balance.

Teevesnacks

Axer wrote: »

Kevaliji wrote: »

^This

Ive had no trouble in pvp with my nightblade. I primarily solo gank (which is great for NB) but when i do run with groups i always have a resto staff ready. This worked even before the patch.

Lke I said, Nighblade, maybe. especially after the 1.2. This threads topic is not NB, its tmeplars.

Templars are horribly garbage at PvP.

And I play one with the best gear in the game (pre craglorn), run pvp raid groups of 24 players with players wearning full ebon, wormcult, and do everything in my power to really try.

So do thousands of others.

Yet look at the most active pvp campaign:
wabbajack:
Look at the new by class leaderboards:
DKs:
10 million+ points for many
Sorcs:
Same 10million+ for many many
NBs:
Lots sit in the 6-7 mil range. one or two have 9 million. The guys with the highest scores? They know for a fact they got their primarily because some very skilled DKs and Sorcerers helped them. Sure NB can destroy noobs too with the right build, but they can't survive, cc, range, aoe or escape battle like their DK and sorcerer breathern.

Templars:
Laughably behind.
The highest is 5million.

There is a reason DKs have more then DOUBLED templars average scores in this game. If you dont believe that, you have no clue about pvp.

Yes player skill > class. A great templar WILL beat a really badly played DK. I've killed DKs 2 on 1 on my templar a few times. They were insanely horrible players that had no idea how to play their class.

But any player with a functional brain, basic pvp experience and a vr12 DK will not lose to any templar, not matter how good that templar is.

You are talking about scores that are pre-patch btw, We'll see after the campaign restarts to see who is top dog and by what margin, but in saying that players will probably pay a large guild to farm and up their score

Tankqull

Teevesnacks wrote: »

You are talking about scores that are pre-patch btw, We'll see after the campaign restarts to see who is top dog and by what margin, but in saying that players will probably pay a large guild to farm and up their score

it will be comparable - DKs and sorcs top notch, NB played by enthusiasts as the lonewolf class, and templars extinct beside a few healers far behind.

cris13crossb16_ESO

Baphomet wrote: »

Badly phrased then. I had the templar pretty isolated until the zerg arrived and soul shreded me. Combat log read something like this:

2. Blazing shield - 749 dmg
3. Blazing shield - 489 dmg
4. Soul assault - 1080 dmg
5. Light attack - 102 dmg

The templar was fully capable of sustaining through my talon+inhale+lava whip+standard assault using blazing shield, healing (and blocking i'm assuming).

I could be totally wrong here but something about these numbers doesn't seem right (could be a bug with the skill I suppose). To my knowledge blazing shield shields you for 30% of your HP and then reflects, a maximum, of 53% damage back to the target.

So for blazing shield to do 749 dmg the Templar would have had to have approximately 4500hp (feel free to correct my math). Even at 489 damage it would have been a very well geared Templar having around 3000hp on top of doing the other things that you suggest.

I'm not saying this isn't possible, it just seems very unlikely to me. Of course if he was in fact the emperor this is possible.