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Templars: Jack of No Trades, Master of None?
NordJitsu
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Ah Templars, the red headed stepchild of the Elder Scrolls Online.
The class that seems to get nerfed each patch, despite already being relatively weak.
There are plenty of complains about Night Blades, but their issues are mostly bug related. The class itself is extremely powerful when its working.
Templars on the other hand have several mechanical issues that make the class under powered when things are working "as intended".
They have good healing skills and the only healing abilities that don't require a resto staff. You'd think that'd give them the ability to be unique off healers and support. Well, it would, if they had any magicka regen. Their best passive, Restoring Spirit, was nerfed late in the Beta process. It may have been OP in its past state, but the change almost certainly went to far.
Another problem is that so many of their abilities are easy to avoid due to long cast times and slow animations making them subpar damage dealers and support in PvP.
They also have poor stamina regen making them inferior choices to tank (in addition to the cast times on the heals.)
Basically, I think Templars could use some love. Here are my ideas for improvements and some feedback on existing skills.
Restoring Spirit
Templars are a magicka intensive class. Their spells are expensive. In order to be effective, they need to heal a lot and try to wear people down. They simply can't match the burst of a NB, Sorc, or DK.
Restoring Spirit was an awesome passive before. It used to return 4% of your maximum magicka each time you activated a skill. Now granted, that was kinda OP. It gave Templars better magicka regen than every other class without requiring them to even slot a skill for it. In high magicka builds with 2,000+ magicka it was pretty crazy. Especially since it returned magicka on all abilities. People would spam Flying Blade for a Stamina dump and get 80 magicka back each time they cast it. So you could alternate between Stam and Magicka like no other class.
That said, there were plenty of reasonable options to bring this skill into balance besides making it a 4% flat cost reduction, which is fairly insignificant. You could have made the 4% return only work on Dawn's Wrath abilities. You could have made it work only with class abilities. You could have made it work only with magicka. You could have made it work only with Stamina (preserving the magicka battery option but making it less OP overall.) There were lots of options. The chosen one was the worst and needs to be reverted.
If you want to learn more about this particular ability I suggest you read this Reddit thread by a really dedicated tester/player who quit ESO in part in response to this change:
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/1zwa6u/an_in_depth_look_at_the_restoring_spirit_nerf/
Suggested Solution Change restoring spirit so that it returns 2-4% of magicka either when activating a Dawn's Wrath ability or when activating an ability that costs Stamina.
The first solution would bring this skill in line with the DKs crazy Stamina regen passive Helping Hands, which returns 5% of Stamina when activating an Earthen Heart ability. The second solution would preserve the "Balanced Warrior" thing that seems to be a theme of the Templar class. Both would help a lot with fixing a major problem with Templars.
Backlash
Back Lash is an amazing ability. I'm not gonna say it isn't. Its the best call target ability in the game, bar none. This makes Templar's a uniquely good support/utility class in group situations. And it should be.
However, it is also plagued by a recurring problem with Templars: long cast times.
This ability's 1.5 sec cast time makes it easy to interrupt in PvP. If you're in an organized group situation, with two good groups fighting each other, its quite easy for a Bow user to stop your Templar with Venom Arrow or a D-staff use to pop them with Force Shock. Even a ranged CC will do.
This is bad. Most other mark type abilities in the game are Instant or have a morph option to make them instant. I'm talking about things like Mark Target, Weakness to Elements, and Quick Siphon (Force Siphon and Siphon Spirit are not) which can be used to indicate to your group who you want them to attack.
My problem is, Back Lash doesn't do damage on its own. It shouldn't be so easy to counter. The counter in group play should be that you run away, block, hide, use your heals or armor buffs, ect. while you wait for Back Lash to wear off.
Suggested Solution Either remove or reduce the cast time of this ability so it isn't quite so easy to interrupt in group PvP.
Eclipse
This is a great ability. At first glance it might look like a poor man's reflective scales, since its single target. When you realize it reflects all spell damage, not just projectiles, it starts to look better. The morphs that debuff the enemy or deal damage make it really good skill.
So really I don't think it needs any buffs on its own.
However, there is currently a crippling problem with this skill. I desperately hope its a bug or not working as intended because it basically makes the skill trash.
I'm not going to go into detail, because I'm hoping its considered an exploit and is changed, but myself and others have reported ZOS about it in game.
Healing Ritual
Here we have another good ability that is plagued by the cast time. 2 seconds is simply too long. A sword and shield user has enough time to get up, go to the bath room, make a sandwich, come back and eat that sandwich, shield charge, and then interrupt the Templar.
The buff to Lingering Ritual was nice an much needed. This heal is now close to on par with Green Dragon's Blood as a self heal, when you are actually able to use it.
Ritual of Rebirth is still a joke. A 0.3 sec reduction in cast time is a joke. Like really, that's just stupid.
Suggested Solution Lower the cast time on the base ability to 1.5 secs and have Ritual of Rebirth lower that to 1 sec.
Biting Jabs
This was a really solid ability. The nerf/delay on 1.1.2 was bad. Jessica Folsom said in another thread that she's investigating it though, so I'll hold off on giving feedback there for now.
Conclusion
I think the Templar could be a really great and fun class. I think there are already some decent builds out there, but there's also no doubt in my mind that the class overall is under powered compared to DKs, Sorcs, and properly working NBs.
I think the changes I suggested above are moderate enough that they won't make Templars OP and just strong enough to bring them on par with what they should be.
What do you think?
Edited by NordJitsu on 23 May 2014 17:08 The class that seems to get nerfed each patch, despite already being relatively weak.
There are plenty of complains about Night Blades, but their issues are mostly bug related. The class itself is extremely powerful when its working.
Templars on the other hand have several mechanical issues that make the class under powered when things are working "as intended".
They have good healing skills and the only healing abilities that don't require a resto staff. You'd think that'd give them the ability to be unique off healers and support. Well, it would, if they had any magicka regen. Their best passive, Restoring Spirit, was nerfed late in the Beta process. It may have been OP in its past state, but the change almost certainly went to far.
Another problem is that so many of their abilities are easy to avoid due to long cast times and slow animations making them subpar damage dealers and support in PvP.
They also have poor stamina regen making them inferior choices to tank (in addition to the cast times on the heals.)
Basically, I think Templars could use some love. Here are my ideas for improvements and some feedback on existing skills.
Restoring Spirit
Templars are a magicka intensive class. Their spells are expensive. In order to be effective, they need to heal a lot and try to wear people down. They simply can't match the burst of a NB, Sorc, or DK.
Restoring Spirit was an awesome passive before. It used to return 4% of your maximum magicka each time you activated a skill. Now granted, that was kinda OP. It gave Templars better magicka regen than every other class without requiring them to even slot a skill for it. In high magicka builds with 2,000+ magicka it was pretty crazy. Especially since it returned magicka on all abilities. People would spam Flying Blade for a Stamina dump and get 80 magicka back each time they cast it. So you could alternate between Stam and Magicka like no other class.
That said, there were plenty of reasonable options to bring this skill into balance besides making it a 4% flat cost reduction, which is fairly insignificant. You could have made the 4% return only work on Dawn's Wrath abilities. You could have made it work only with class abilities. You could have made it work only with magicka. You could have made it work only with Stamina (preserving the magicka battery option but making it less OP overall.) There were lots of options. The chosen one was the worst and needs to be reverted.
If you want to learn more about this particular ability I suggest you read this Reddit thread by a really dedicated tester/player who quit ESO in part in response to this change:
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/1zwa6u/an_in_depth_look_at_the_restoring_spirit_nerf/
Suggested Solution Change restoring spirit so that it returns 2-4% of magicka either when activating a Dawn's Wrath ability or when activating an ability that costs Stamina.
The first solution would bring this skill in line with the DKs crazy Stamina regen passive Helping Hands, which returns 5% of Stamina when activating an Earthen Heart ability. The second solution would preserve the "Balanced Warrior" thing that seems to be a theme of the Templar class. Both would help a lot with fixing a major problem with Templars.
Backlash
Back Lash is an amazing ability. I'm not gonna say it isn't. Its the best call target ability in the game, bar none. This makes Templar's a uniquely good support/utility class in group situations. And it should be.
However, it is also plagued by a recurring problem with Templars: long cast times.
This ability's 1.5 sec cast time makes it easy to interrupt in PvP. If you're in an organized group situation, with two good groups fighting each other, its quite easy for a Bow user to stop your Templar with Venom Arrow or a D-staff use to pop them with Force Shock. Even a ranged CC will do.
This is bad. Most other mark type abilities in the game are Instant or have a morph option to make them instant. I'm talking about things like Mark Target, Weakness to Elements, and Quick Siphon (Force Siphon and Siphon Spirit are not) which can be used to indicate to your group who you want them to attack.
My problem is, Back Lash doesn't do damage on its own. It shouldn't be so easy to counter. The counter in group play should be that you run away, block, hide, use your heals or armor buffs, ect. while you wait for Back Lash to wear off.
Suggested Solution Either remove or reduce the cast time of this ability so it isn't quite so easy to interrupt in group PvP.
Eclipse
This is a great ability. At first glance it might look like a poor man's reflective scales, since its single target. When you realize it reflects all spell damage, not just projectiles, it starts to look better. The morphs that debuff the enemy or deal damage make it really good skill.
So really I don't think it needs any buffs on its own.
However, there is currently a crippling problem with this skill. I desperately hope its a bug or not working as intended because it basically makes the skill trash.
I'm not going to go into detail, because I'm hoping its considered an exploit and is changed, but myself and others have reported ZOS about it in game.
Healing Ritual
Here we have another good ability that is plagued by the cast time. 2 seconds is simply too long. A sword and shield user has enough time to get up, go to the bath room, make a sandwich, come back and eat that sandwich, shield charge, and then interrupt the Templar.
The buff to Lingering Ritual was nice an much needed. This heal is now close to on par with Green Dragon's Blood as a self heal, when you are actually able to use it.
Ritual of Rebirth is still a joke. A 0.3 sec reduction in cast time is a joke. Like really, that's just stupid.
Suggested Solution Lower the cast time on the base ability to 1.5 secs and have Ritual of Rebirth lower that to 1 sec.
Biting Jabs
This was a really solid ability. The nerf/delay on 1.1.2 was bad. Jessica Folsom said in another thread that she's investigating it though, so I'll hold off on giving feedback there for now.
Conclusion
I think the Templar could be a really great and fun class. I think there are already some decent builds out there, but there's also no doubt in my mind that the class overall is under powered compared to DKs, Sorcs, and properly working NBs.
I think the changes I suggested above are moderate enough that they won't make Templars OP and just strong enough to bring them on par with what they should be.
What do you think?
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Liquid_Time✭✭✭✭✭Well as NB user I provide you with my support. I have not played a Temp, but I have fought many. They seem to be in par with my NB more often then none. That being said.. Once NB's receive many of their fixes.. I imagine it will be at the bottom of the totem poll at that point. So well done on this post and good luck!¸.•¨)
¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•` Liquid_Time'*-.¸.-•-.¸_¸.-•-.¸_¸.-•-.¸_¸.-•-.¸_¸.-•-.¸_¸.-••¤
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IGN: Liquid Past || Rank: V14 || Class: Nightblade || World Skill: Vampire
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Reinmard✭✭✭That I liked the game and I liked the templar even if it was....well, not very useful apart from healing.
Now than is broken coz biting jabs, I just un-sub.
I guess they will fix it, if not, I wont complain more at the forums, I just wont pay more.3 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Master of Healing.
More like Master of Reviving. Pretty much the only thing they do better than any other class and it got nerfed this patch.
A NB or a Sorc can be a better healer than a Templar.2 -
Calgrissom✭✭And from the Dev Posts it looks like the Jabs Nerf was intended they just didn't list it on the patch notes.2 -
p.hurst1b16_ESO✭✭✭You need to experiment with skill calculators and plan Templar build carefully,
I have one that is a dual resto staff healer. Awesome heal power and has a few tricks for a bit if damage and cc when not in critical situations too.
I have a *secret* build too. If it works how I think then I will put it up in the guides. Game changer and only Templar can be what I am planning to build. The patch 1.1.2 does not affect my plans !<Enigmatic Name> Is poaching new guild members again ! Apply on our webby with your CV and proof of identity and we can arrange an interview with a panel of our officers.1 -
Phantax✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have to say I hope you're wrong on some of this, having pretty much given up on my Sorc I chose to go Templar. Only reaching VR2 with this class but up till now had no issues, in fact found it even easier than Sorc.
(Haven't played since patch tho as still downloading so yet to see if it is this bad !)
A rotation of-
Dark Flare - Reflective Light - Explosive Charge - Biting Jabs
One rotation pretty much killed everything in solo or pairs (3's took a bit longer)
Armor - 7 piece Light (all with health glyph and reinforced trait)
Points - (41 points magicka / rest health)
Trinkets - Warlock set (for the magicka boost)
Passives- (for magicka)
Restoring Spirit (Templar)
Evocation (Light Armor)
Recovery (Light Armor)
Like I said not online yet (hopefully within the hour) so will let you know how I get on
High Elf Sorcerer VR12 - Destro / Resto Staff
I'm a werewolf. If you vamps don't like it.... Bite me !
We're not retreating... we're advancing in a different direction !0 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Phantax
Other than the Biting Jabs thing and the Resurrection thing, there's nothing about this patch that really changes the Templar for the worse.
If you're still leveling, I think you won't notice a thing.
Also, Templars are worse off in PvP than in PvE. Cast times don't matter that much in PvE because dumb mobs won't interrupt you and you can get your casts off as openers.
In PvP it means all of your attacks can be very easily countered by competent players.0 -
Phantax✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Phantax
Other than the Biting Jabs thing and the Resurrection thing, there's nothing about this patch that really changes the Templar for the worse.
If you're still leveling, I think you won't notice a thing.
Also, Templars are worse off in PvP than in PvE. Cast times don't matter that much in PvE because dumb mobs won't interrupt you and you can get your casts off as openers.
In PvP it means all of your attacks can be very easily countered by competent players.
Luckily I only PvP for fun or a diversion from PvE. Even so if a weak class gets nerfed even more then that doesn't help with balancing.High Elf Sorcerer VR12 - Destro / Resto Staff
I'm a werewolf. If you vamps don't like it.... Bite me !
We're not retreating... we're advancing in a different direction !1 -
grizzbi✭✭✭@ NordJitsu
Thanks a lot for your constructive post. Your proposals are good and reasonable enough. The templar is an interesting class and should not be reduced to healing.
As a Templar, I've spent a lot of time trying many different builds. Honestly, most of them were under-performing. Because we are a magicka intensive class as you explained. And because several key abilities from the templar tree are not strong or reliable enough.
- Blinding light and its morphs should be added to your list. It's an interesting skill but its cost, duration, radius and random factor prevent many of us to use it.
I would slightly increase the radius so that you don't have to first take a hit to use it. And I would extend the duration to 6 sec. With 4 ticks instead of 3 for the concerned morph.
- Sun shield has a major drawback. It "gives you" HP but nullify your armor and spell resistance. So it doesn't last enough (1 or 2 sec.) and can be dangerous to use. I like this ability because it has great potential: depending on its morph, it can be used for a tank build or a DPS build.
Slightly increase the cost. And increase the life percentage used to 50% instead of 33%
- Spear shards and its morphs don't seem to scale well. The damage is not high enough. The disorient/stun is too short. It's too light and the only way to use it is to "spam it" 2 or 3 times. It's not "magicka efficient". And It can always be replaced by a better ability from another skill line (like volcanic runes).
I would remove the damage and make it an AOE CC: disorient, short stun or immobilize.Or a nice debuff
As you said, templars are the red headed stepchild of the Elder Scrolls Online. But with the current state of DK, the pressure from the NB community, and the growing population of Sorcerer, I'm afraid that templars will not be considered before a long time.
The templar community is probably the most discreet, reasonable and patient. It's good and I'm glad to be part of it. Sadly, it won't help the templar to be reviewed and balanced as it should.Edited by grizzbi on 23 May 2014 18:140 -
VagabondAngel✭✭✭✭I like my Templar but I feel its a somewhat lamentable build I have, particularly when attempting to solo anything even 2 or 3 levels below me; taking seemingly forever to deal with 2 groups of 3 NPCs then seeing a sorcerer or DK take out similar groups in a couple of seconds. To be honest, I've mostly enjoyed the challenge of running solo but feel woefully inadequate next to the speed and power of the aforementioned classes. Usual scenario in a dungeon is - I set my skill line, get ready with Dark Flare and am still mid-cast when someone else runs in and kills everything before my fire-ball even arrives.
The only time my char has seemed to come into their own is as a healer, so of course relies on group play. This is fun, a different challenge but not always workable depending on what group you end up being thrown in with when random grouping (I'm sure every healer has had the backlash of being blamed for multiple deaths when the group you're with all run in with their eyes shut and die as soon as you've used all your magicka spamming everything to keep them alive for a few more seconds.), or waiting for your guild-mates...
So being good at only one thing, which incidentally is a skill-set entirely to help others and therefore requires much selfless use of skill points to make the most of, has somehow made us deserving of coming under fire from the nerf gun:
Why exactly? Was that OP somehow and I missed it? It was probably the best quick-fire AoE ability a Templar has and you've killed it.Cleansing Ritual: This ability’s Purify synergy will now only appear to allies that have a negative debuff that can be removed.
What? This must have been planned since its in the patch notes but I fail to see how removing any advantage to have a Templar healer in your group is fair. There has to be some advantage to being a Templar Healer or having one in your group otherwise the build becomes utterly pointless, seeing as Templars are mediocre when soloing and only useful as Healer. Running around avoiding death while healing everyone and trying to resurrect is not easy you know - being able to do it faster is a small advantage but we're not even allowed that? Ridiculous decision.Master Ritualist:
Decreased this ability’s resurrection cast speed bonus.
Those who have spent Skill Points in the Master Ritualist passive will have those points returned to their overall skill point pool. You may place those Skill Points back in this ability if you wish, or invest them elsewhere.
Well thank you I guessRite of Passage:
Slightly increased in healing done.
Meh.Ritual of Rebirth (Healing Ritual morph): Increased the self-healing on this Healing Ritual morph.
We're the support crew really - we need our tiny advantages.Edited by VagabondAngel on 23 May 2014 18:37~ Níamh ~
~ Ebonheart Pact ~
~ SatGNU - PC - EU ~2 -
Cheatingdeath23✭✭✭I like my Templar build but somehow got overleveled for the quests I am doing, so I can easily take out the PvE content lower level than me.
I have no idea how it compares to other classes but I would like it to be strengthened a tad.0 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Eclipse
This is a great ability. At first glance it might look like a poor man's reflective scales, since its single target. When you realize it reflects all spell damage, not just projectiles, it starts to look better. The morphs that debuff the enemy or deal damage make it really good skill.
So really I don't think it needs any buffs on its own.
However, there is currently a crippling problem with this skill. I desperately hope its a bug or not working as intended because it basically makes the skill trash.
I'm not going to go into detail, because I'm hoping its considered an exploit and is changed, but myself and others have reported ZOS about it in game.
What you mean by this bold part?
My unstable core (eclipse morph) only return projectiles spells.
It wont return AoE...
I saw this has a suppotive reflective scales , which all there is to it , i can toss on an enemy and dont matter who they hit , the projectiles are returned , all there is to this.
Like always the templar is a supportive form of the DK , which is just plain better when it comes to standing alone."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Nox_Aeterna
It will also return non-projectile single target spells like Daedric Curse.
Curse, Force Shock, ect are not projectiles so they work as counters to Reflective Scales but not Unstable Core.0 -
grizzbi✭✭✭I've just done a few tests but Eclipse seems to have been "fixed":
- Npcs don't "stand dead" anymore with a chunk of life ( now you can loot them..)
- The damage is applied in time, and not at the end of the spell duration like it used to be in some case.
- Projectile are visually reflected. (they weren't before the patch)
From my experience, Eclipse doesn't work for AOE and ground targeted spells.
Also, Backlash III wasn't doing anything when I tested it a while ago. I reported it and even opened a discussion about it (and eclipse). But I got no answer. I don't know if it has been corrected with the last patch.
As for our passives, I wonder if anyone has ever tested all of them.0 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@grizzbi
That's not the Eclipse issue I'm referring to.
I'm not gonna post it because I don't want people to start doing it. I'm assuming its unintended, because its just too dumb to be intentional.
Not trying to be coy...sorry. I maybe should have just not mentioned anything about it to begin with.
Exploits are best reported in private so people don't start taking advantage of them.0 -
skarvika✭✭✭✭It does seem that way. I love playing my templar. I can do a little bit of everything, which I love...it's a very challenging class to play but with some improvements I could see it becoming a very useful one.
I definitely feel that next to nightblades, we're the unappreciated underdogs of the ESO world. We're not nearly as useful in pvp as we should be; I'm always feeling like I'm kind of a "support" player, like cannon fodder or something. I die easily and my skills are fairly weak. I'd like to be able to charge to the front line of an attack without needing to put a wave of allies ahead of me first.QQing is a full time job0 -
grizzbi✭✭✭@grizzbi
That's not the Eclipse issue I'm referring to.
I'm not gonna post it because I don't want people to start doing it. I'm assuming its unintended, because its just too dumb to be intentional.
Not trying to be coy...sorry. I maybe should have just not mentioned anything about it to begin with.
Exploits are best reported in private so people don't start taking advantage of them.
I was not referring to the exploit (that I don't know myself). It was just to show how buggy was this skill (and other ones).
You're right: let's forget about the possible exploit!
We don't need this kind of attention.
Edited by grizzbi on 23 May 2014 19:300 -
NordJitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Also:ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.
In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.
This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.
It already costs enough...1 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Nox_Aeterna
It will also return non-projectile single target spells like Daedric Curse.
Curse, Force Shock, ect are not projectiles so they work as counters to Reflective Scales but not Unstable Core.
Ic , i dont PvP that much , reason i have not noticed this at all.
In any case , good to know it has extra perks."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
grizzbi✭✭✭Also:ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »Thank you all for your patience as we tracked this one down. We have an answer for you.
In patch 1.1.2, we increased the internal cooldown of Biting Jabs from 0.5 seconds to 1.2 seconds. Unfortunately, this change was not documented in the patch notes. This was not intended, and we do apologize.
This change was made to balance the ability's high single target damage. However we have been reading your feedback, and agree that the ability feels too unresponsive now. We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible), and instead will slightly increase the ability's resource cost.
It already costs enough...
Sure.
By the way, It saddens me. ZOS just have to revert the skill back to what it was yesterday and everybody will say: "templar are fine now. Let's move back to more important things".2 -
Why no mention of Nova being subpar to NB veil of blades and dragonknight standard, which apples to apples are very similar abilities, but nova costs 300 ult and does less dmg.
Also, reflective scales for DK is far superior to eclipse. There are mobs that are immune to eclipse and in PvP it can be broken out of with a simple right+left click. DK's scales however reflects all incoming spells AND sends them back with +20% dmg.1 -
Blackwidow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ah Templars, the red headed stepchild of the Elder Scrolls Online.
What do you think?
I do apologize, but I did not read your post except what I copied above.
My only point I would like to make is, I play a templar as my main. I love that character.
Templars may not be your cup of tea if you feel they are weak or broken.
Thank you.3
