Wondering why?

Vorkk8383

-Why are you putting in more content when what you have is already broken?
-Why did you patch the EU server when you knew how many negative things happened after patching the NA server?

Who's in charge of those decisions? You guys need to stop with any new content and stop with silly stuff like armor color. If it's not game breaking at this point, you shouldn't touch it. Cosmetics can wait.

Please stop adding to the game and focus on a) bugs b) balance c) bots d) more communication with the players. Those should be your 4 main priorities atm.

You can do it. Step by step. I do want to see you succeed but right now it's like there's a bunch of heads and everyone is doing a bit of this and a bit of that. Have a meeting. Regroup. Come up with everything that needs fixing NOW so people can play the game. No new stuff. New stuff=area for more screw ups and bugs. You have enough as it is. You got rid of some, created a lot more and fixed some things that were totally trivial.

Trust me. Prioritize properly. Tell players what you are doing. You will see a lot less nagging, less canceled subs, more happy people. You will also feel better about your game knowing that it's working as intended or close to. You can't fix everything in one patch. Fix a few big things, see how it goes.

Have the team create threads also. Ask players what the bugs are. Delete anything that's not talking about bugs. It's not a want thread. It's a thread for you to base yourself on and decide which is the biggest issue atm and work on that. In that thread, update the players REGULARLY!! We think this is the biggest issue atm so we're working on this. We will let you guys know when the fix is ready and then have a thread for the issue(s) you fixed and asked the players how it's going...is it fixed? Are there still errors? Don't go playing with other stuff until it's fixed. Then move on to the next most important set of things. Why create your own threads? Because those will be the official ones. Sticky them up top. Right now, there's a ton of threads here and there. Having mods filter through them all as the forums are a mess is wasting time. Time that you really can't afford to waste. You also need a thread for balance issues only and one official thread for bots. Only if people have ideas and want to discuss this. That way, you have 3 threads to check all the time and it makes it MUCH easier on you than to have to check everywhere on the forums. More efficient for you and for the players. Efficiency is KEY at this point.

Face it, what you're doing now isn't working and the main issue is a HUGE lack of communication within your own team and with the community.

Sit down, plan smart. You can do it that way. Realize that going in every direction to try to please everyone isn't working. It's causing more issues. So go to A B C D. BUGS, BALANCE, BOTS, MORE COMMUNICATION WITH PLAYERS.

Take a deep breath and do it!

ZiRM

Nice post OP, agree.

Liquid_Time

"-Why are you putting in more content when what you have is already broken?"
Yes this.

wafffllesss

"Why are you putting in more content when what you have is already broken?"

I think they were already working on that content before launch, and after launch people started to find bugs and glitches so they put another part of the team to fix that. They probably are still working on all the fixes.

You've got to understand that programing isn't easy at all, it takes time. Also, not everything can be done by more than one programer...

I'm not saying we don't need those fixes asap. but we gotta try to understand that they don't have a button named "Fix bugs", "Balance Classes".

BBSooner

Likely, more content is still being worked on because not everybody is assigned to debugging. And rightfully so, the concept artists, dungeon designers, quest writers etc have no business making sure X skill doesn't cause an undesired effect. Simply throwing more people at the problem would likely slow it down, especially when they have to wrap their heads around code they might have never seen before while at the same time being unaware if progress on bug somebody else is fixing will adjust the results that they are working on.

Reinmard

Nice post indeed, respectful and insightful.

JessieColt

Liquid_Time wrote: »

"-Why are you putting in more content when what you have is already broken?"
Yes this.

Because clearly neither of you understand that there are 2 completely different teams involved with 2 completely different skill sets that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

People who write dialog for quests do not deal with code issues/bug fixes and they shouldn't be expected to either.

Want to get an understanding of what different people do within the company, go read the job postings and look at the Job Duties and Skill Requirements for each.

Maybe then posts like this that show an utter and complete lack of understanding in how games are created and maintained will stop showing up.

Maulkin

JessieColtub17_ESO wrote: »

Liquid_Time wrote: »

"-Why are you putting in more content when what you have is already broken?"
Yes this.

Because clearly neither of you understand that there are 2 completely different teams involved with 2 completely different skill sets that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

People who write dialog for quests do not deal with code issues/bug fixes and they shouldn't be expected to either.

Want to get an understanding of what different people do within the company, go read the job postings and look at the Job Duties and Skill Requirements for each.

Maybe then posts like this that show an utter and complete lack of understanding in how games are created and maintained will stop showing up.

Actually, it's you who shows a complete lack of understanding of roll out procedures and software development practices.

He didn't ask for everyone to stop what they're doing and just fix bugs. The teams working on new content can keep doing that.

He asked that no new content is released until the current is fixed. Releasing more content at the moment puts even more stress on Testers and Devs working with current game mechanics. It means more bugs are seeping through unfound or untested like todays VR difficulty increase.

The new content can be worked on and stacked for future releases. Just don't release new features while your current ones are broken and your customers in uproar.

Turelus

If they cancel production on future content however they're going to lose subscribers because everyone wants more content.
It took less than a month for the first threads about people bored without anything to do to start appearing on the forums so content development isn't a bad thing.

So far it hasn't got in the way of any bug fixes though and we have had a steady stream of patches which fixed important issues while minor issues were put into one larger patch with the content release.

Liquid_Time

@JessieColtub17_ESO
Must I show a "clear understanding" of development to make a suggestion? Not sure why this is a requirement, but I currently "DO" work in a development company that supports many areas of development. The creation, test breaks, fixes, updates, and etc... No I do not code, but I have had my fair share of C# and Java to have a "basic understanding" of the code itself.

Also, as @mike.gaziotisb16_ESO stated.. Adding more breaks to an already broken game is not good. Common sense 101. How do you prevent that? Delay the added content that may contain the additional problems is a perfectly reasonable way to achieve this.

I am simply making a suggestion. Have a nice day

KitLightning

@Liquid_Time You should well know that the team needs to keep the snooker-ball running ... More content means more (or be it new) customers. If the team stopped adding new content, there will not be an influx in customers, since new content means that the game is not in a standstill. However if the team was to solely stop adding new content and address the BUGs full time, the current player-base would drop significantly since they then would rage over a lack of new content. See the evil circle...

JessieColt

Liquid_Time wrote: »

@JessieColtub17_ESO
Must I show a "clear understanding" of development to make a suggestion? Not sure why this is a requirement, but I currently "DO" work in a development company that supports many areas of development. The creation, test breaks, fixes, updates, and etc... No I do not code, but I have had my fair share of C# and Java to have a "basic understanding" of the code itself.

I am simply making a suggestion. Have a nice day

It helps to understand the difference.

99.9999999% of requests in threads/posts regarding stopping new releases in exchange for fixing existing issues do not seem to understand that those 2 have absolutely nothing to do with each other, have no direct impact on each other, and stopping one will do absolutely nothing to address issues in the other.

The only way stopping new releases could have any impact on fixing existing issues if the company fires everyone who works on new content and uses money that was used to pay for those employees and hires developers instead.

Which, as I said, will have problems in the long run, because now the company will have developers, but no one to create new content.

Making suggestions or offering creative criticism has a far greater impact when you understand the real impact/issue.

As someone who works in a development environment, such as I do, we should be in a better position to understand the differences in the teams.

Sure, you know some code, but based on your comments, you are not a dedicated coder for your company.

Based on the "suggestion" that new content should be stopped in exchange for fixing current content/issues, would be akin to tell you that you are now laid off and not getting a paycheck, so that your company can dedicate more time to
doing stuff with the code.

You do not code, your job is not coding, laying you off would have no impact on what the coders are doing, and in the end, would only delay work that you are doing, for no benefit.

Liquid_Time

@KitLightning
Oh I know both directions has its own benefits

I am not saying the move that was made was wrong by all means, but it does trouble me to think that maybe there could have been a better way?

What is done is done. Lets just hope the old/new problems we see are put on the top shelf for the next few weeks. I really don't want to see the bugs that have been around since launch stay here until the next content update. Now I do expect to see more moving forward, but that will continue to happen years from now. It's expected.

Phantax

patrick.loiselleb16_ESO wrote: »

-Why are you putting in more content when what you have is already broken?
-Why did you patch the EU server when you knew how many negative things happened after patching the NA server?

Who's in charge of those decisions? You guys need to stop with any new content and stop with silly stuff like armor color. If it's not game breaking at this point, you shouldn't touch it. Cosmetics can wait.

Please stop adding to the game and focus on a) bugs b) balance c) bots d) more communication with the players. Those should be your 4 main priorities atm.

You can do it. Step by step. I do want to see you succeed but right now it's like there's a bunch of heads and everyone is doing a bit of this and a bit of that. Have a meeting. Regroup. Come up with everything that needs fixing NOW so people can play the game. No new stuff. New stuff=area for more screw ups and bugs. You have enough as it is. You got rid of some, created a lot more and fixed some things that were totally trivial.

Trust me. Prioritize properly. Tell players what you are doing. You will see a lot less nagging, less canceled subs, more happy people. You will also feel better about your game knowing that it's working as intended or close to. You can't fix everything in one patch. Fix a few big things, see how it goes.

Have the team create threads also. Ask players what the bugs are. Delete anything that's not talking about bugs. It's not a want thread. It's a thread for you to base yourself on and decide which is the biggest issue atm and work on that. In that thread, update the players REGULARLY!! We think this is the biggest issue atm so we're working on this. We will let you guys know when the fix is ready and then have a thread for the issue(s) you fixed and asked the players how it's going...is it fixed? Are there still errors? Don't go playing with other stuff until it's fixed. Then move on to the next most important set of things. Why create your own threads? Because those will be the official ones. Sticky them up top. Right now, there's a ton of threads here and there. Having mods filter through them all as the forums are a mess is wasting time. Time that you really can't afford to waste. You also need a thread for balance issues only and one official thread for bots. Only if people have ideas and want to discuss this. That way, you have 3 threads to check all the time and it makes it MUCH easier on you than to have to check everywhere on the forums. More efficient for you and for the players. Efficiency is KEY at this point.

Face it, what you're doing now isn't working and the main issue is a HUGE lack of communication within your own team and with the community.

Sit down, plan smart. You can do it that way. Realize that going in every direction to try to please everyone isn't working. It's causing more issues. So go to A B C D. BUGS, BALANCE, BOTS, MORE COMMUNICATION WITH PLAYERS.

Take a deep breath and do it!

Agreed on all points. Especially -
-Why did you patch the EU server when you knew how many negative things happened after patching the NA server?
I made that very same point in the hourly hours this morning as soon as we started getting feedback from the NA server. (They still went ahead and launched 1.1.2 on the EU) now the whole forum / both servers are up in arms !

Liquid_Time

@JessieColtub17_ESO
Not sure where to start, but lets begin with the root of my "suggestion". You can continue to develop new content without adding it to the existing game. Now I was not trying to suggest putting a hold on the development part, just simply the implementation of it.

(Keep in mind I am not arguing in any way, I am actually enjoying this. Weird right??)

If this was done.. (Just bouncing ideas around)
The current focus that is being directed at todays "bugs" and "mistakes" could possibly have been focused on the old "bugs" which may speed up those fixes.

However.. I imagine there is a break/fix team that is simply dedicated to the new content that knows its code, so having those resources makes my point invalid. meh haha.

Not sure why my employment status was brought up, but I will bite an reply to that as well.. Still hired, but I currently manage an IT Support team elsewhere within the company. Not related to code, just the troubleshooting support side.

Tarwin

Great post, but my guess is different teams and the high demand for bored Vet players

Wish they could recruit Sanya as a regular posting community mod. I never got tired of her bluntness, wit, and sometimes verbal assaults ..

Reinmard

Tarwin wrote: »

Great post, but my guess is different teams and the high demand for bored Vet players

Wish they could recruit Sanya as a regular posting community mod. I never got tired of her bluntness, wit, and sometimes verbal assaults ..

Well, in that case the team in charge of fixing the bugs are absolutly incompetent and they should change it or add more members.
But
The developer team doesnt seem to care about what the support team is doing, they act like "Wathever, is not my job"

KitLightning

@Liquid_Time‌ A better way you say, *turn dialogue upside down* not sure if it would be better to torrent the build instead since the torrent is validated consistently against the repository and have any additional patches added with their individual packages.

BBSooner

Liquid_Time wrote: »

@JessieColtub17_ESO
Not sure where to start, but lets begin with the root of my "suggestion". You can continue to develop new content without adding it to the existing game. Now I was not trying to suggest putting a hold on the development part, just simply the implementation of it.

(Keep in mind I am not arguing in any way, I am actually enjoying this. Weird right??)

If this was done.. (Just bouncing ideas around)
The current focus that is being directed at todays "bugs" and "mistakes" could possibly have been focused on the old "bugs" which may speed up those fixes.

However.. I imagine there is a break/fix team that is simply dedicated to the new content that knows its code, so having those resources makes my point invalid. meh haha.

Not sure why my employment status was brought up, but I will bite an reply to that as well.. Still hired, but I currently manage an IT Support team elsewhere within the company. Not related to code, just the troubleshooting support side.

The halting of the release of content stops what is, ideally imo, a development cycle of:

- Development team (which includes more than just coders) passes along content to be tested and begins new content
- initial debuggers find preliminary bugs/make fixes and then passes to the PTS or open testing as they receive the next bundle of new content/address PTS and live version bugs
- PTS finds and reports bugs which, when a certain level of comfortability is reached is sent to live
- live players find and report bugs for fixes

Halting the development team in the name of "#commonsense" as some have alluded to in this thread does more harm than good to the cycle by setting the development team stationary. Especially when the majority of current issues people have in this game is balancing and class related, bot/RMT, or feature (AH, pvp, etc) - which (with the exception of some feature requests) are separate entirely to the development of new content/zones.

Phantax

BBSooner wrote: »

- Development team (which includes more than just coders) passes along content to be tested and begins new content
- initial debuggers find preliminary bugs/make fixes and then passes to the PTS or open testing as they receive the next bundle of new content/address PTS and live version bugs
- PTS finds and reports bugs which, when a certain level of comfortability is reached is sent to live
- live players find and report bugs for fixes.

That would be great if it were true. Unfortunately we've already had PTS members openly admit on these forums that they are using the PTS to discover ways/exploits that will help their guilds to achieve more and faster.

Firstly, PTS should be subject to the NDA
Second, anybody found abusing (inc not reporting issues) should be removed from the PTS.

The PTS should be primarily (and exclusively) for those people who want to contribute to the betterment of the game !

JessieColt

Liquid_Time wrote: »

@JessieColtub17_ESO
Not sure where to start, but lets begin with the root of my "suggestion". You can continue to develop new content without adding it to the existing game. Now I was not trying to suggest putting a hold on the development part, just simply the implementation of it.

(Keep in mind I am not arguing in any way, I am actually enjoying this. Weird right??)

If this was done.. (Just bouncing ideas around)
The current focus that is being directed at todays "bugs" and "mistakes" could possibly have been focused on the old "bugs" which may speed up those fixes.

However.. I imagine there is a break/fix team that is simply dedicated to the new content that knows its code, so having those resources makes my point invalid. meh haha.

Not sure why my employment status was brought up, but I will bite an reply to that as well.. Still hired, but I currently manage an IT Support team elsewhere within the company. Not related to code, just the troubleshooting support side.

I agree, we have kept this civil and informative to both sides of the situation A very nice change indeed from flame threads LOL.

In a game environment, of which while I do earn a paycheck from a game company, in no way means that the way we do things is the same as other companies do them, there are a large variety of teams, all who depend upon each other, but work in different areas with completely different skill sets.

So here are the basic breakdowns from where I sit in this discussion:

Dev Team - This is the group of people dedicated to creating the code for a particular subset of the game. You can, and do, have a large number of different Dev Teams. With regards to TESO, there may be a Dev Team that deals strictly with dungeons. There may be another team that deals strictly with World Bosses (although based on how long it took to fix the ones that were broke, I doubt that there is a dedicated team just to them, but will still use this as an example lol). To keep it simple, I will stick with using just those 2 examples, but keep in mind that there may be separate teams dedicated to the UI, Guilds, etc.

QA - This is your Quality Assurance Team. This group will usually also be broken up into multiple teams dedicated to a particular subset of the game. So, in keeping with the Dev Team example above, you will have a set number of employees on the QA team that works with the Dungeon Team to try to make sure that dungeons work the way they are supposed to. You will also have a team that works with the World Boss Dev Team to make sure that the World Bosses work the way they are supposed to. (now you see why I think these really aren't 2 separate teams LOL, no set people dedicated to making sure the world bosses were working correctly). The sole role of the QA team is to test the code that the Dev Team has created. These tests are usually narrow in scope. They look at the changes that the code team has created, and they test those changes against areas of the system that should/may be impacted by those changes and they do their best to make sure that nothing bad gets broken. This in no way means that the code doesn't have, or couldn't have, an impact on other areas of the game. But in large code bases where everything cannot be tested, they narrow their scope of testing to the changes that will be made with the new code.

New Content - This team will be made up of employees who write the quest dialog, in international games, like TESO, there will usually be members of this team who speak the various supported languages so that the dialog can be localized. So, English, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, etc. A HUGE plus to this team is people who are fluent in more than one language.

Graphics Team - This may, or may not be, a separate team, but may be dedicated members of the New Content Team or the Dev Team, that is strictly hired to create mountains, rocks, totems, caves, cities, creatures, players, armor, etc.

Animation Team - This team makes sure that your characters and NPC's and Monsters can walk, shoot, run, dodge, block, etc. The animation team members usually work very closely with the Graphics Team because because they have to try to make sure that if the only way to make a player run causes armor clipping, that the graphics team can hopefully fix the armor before it is released.

So leaving out Customer Support, Forum Moderation, and all of the other teams that can and do exist within a company, I will work with the 5 teams outlined above.


New Content creates the storyboard (this is where they lay out what happens, when, how, and what is said).
Graphics creates the pretty.
Animation makes it move.
Dev writes the code that calls the pretty and the animations and makes them do things in game that result in a preferred outcome.
QA tests to try to make sure that what Graphics, Animation.

Each team relies heavily on the others, but each team is separate from the others too.

Those who write dialog, while an individual member of the team may understand how code works (as in your case) they are not on the Dev Team and they do not work with the intricacies of the code day in and day out.

A member of the Dev Team may be rock solid in understanding how the code for this particular game works, but may have only a passing understanding of how to make the pretty.

While team members on each team may have passing knowledge of how the other team does their job, they usually do not have dedicated knowledge that will make them an asset to that team.

So, now we have a problem. QA finds an issue in the code, and kicks it back to the Dev Team to fix. There would be no reason to send it to the Dialog team, since the dialog team doesn't code.

So to pull ALL of this back to the topic of the thread. Stopping New Content to fix old content has a very negative affect on the game.

Sure, you prevent new issues from happening, but you would end up putting those employees out of work, since you cannot shift them to another team to help, since they do not code.

Sure, you can pull some Dev members from the Dungeon Team to help them fix code for the world boss, but then those members are not dealing with the dungeon code and are no longer dealing with coding the new content.

Shifting resources happens ALL the time in games, sometimes on a small level where users do not know, like having one Dev from the Dungeon Team work on the World Boss team for 1-2 weeks to help out with a major issue that needs more help. But that person is still a Dev.

Sometimes it happens on large scales, where entire offices for a company are shut down. Some employees physically move to another office, and some are simply let go.

Shifting resources has to happen on some level to keep the employee. If the dungeons are being coded and the QA team isn't needed to test anything, those members may temporarily work on the World Boss testing so that they have something to do during their own downtime (very rare for an entire team to shift, usually it is one or 2 employees)

So stopping production on the New Content doesn't help fix the existing issues, because those employees cannot be shifted to those teams and new content could take months to flesh out. So you could have one team working on Craglorn and one working on the next release, and one working on the release after that. Stopping any of which wont help fix the current issues any faster.

The end result is a stagnant game with vast amounts of time between releases, resulting in loss of users due to lack of content.

Sure, we fixed an issue that was affecting 100 level 10 players, but lost 250 capped players because now there was nothing for them to do in the game.

TL;dr

In a game environment like TESO, you cannot really cut back on one team in the hopes it benefits another, because in the end, the chosen teams to cut back on have no direct affect on the issues that need to be fixed, and only end up delaying future releases that help to keep players interested in the game.

Liquid_Time

@JessieColtub17_ESO
Well you may have won me over in this debate . I will still hold firm on my belief, but that is just me being stubborn and annoyed with bugs. I have lost patience with the amount of bugs I have had to deal with these past few weeks. (I am by no means alone of course) The NB/Vampire passives requiring the need to log out and back in after death is just.. ugh. Enough said I do not want to change the subject. Also, glad to see some civil adults still browse these forums.
-tips hat-

Bhakura

I really dont get where all this negativity is coming from. Im having fun with the game? So there are bugs, nothing i faced is totally game breaking? What game doesnt have bugs at launch?
With every new MMO release complaining and moaning gets louder, what the hell do you people want then? if its that much of an issue, QUIT GAMING or make your own perfect MMO and see how easy it is.
21st century generation the complain generation, jeezes christ

Liquid_Time

@Bhakura
Who's post is this regarding? OP's or someone else's?

JessieColt

Liquid_Time wrote: »

@JessieColtub17_ESO
Well you may have won me over in this debate . I will still hold firm on my belief, but that is just me being stubborn and annoyed with bugs. I have lost patience with the amount of bugs I have had to deal with these past few weeks. (I am by no means alone of course) The NB/Vampire passives requiring the need to log out and back in after death is just.. ugh. Enough said I do not want to change the subject. Also, glad to see some civil adults still browse these forums.
-tips hat-

Not really trying to win you over, just explain the differences in the teams and how they do not really help the others with resolving current issues.

And I do wholeheartedly agree with your NB/Vamp issues, as I am, and they affect me.

The only saving grace that I have is that I am a provisioner and make my own food.

Each time I zone with a load screen (into and out of instances, but not wayshrines) I lose my Stam buff from the food. Meaning I have to eat more food.

Something that should last 2 hours might last me 15 minutes.

I try to work around the passive issue by sticking to single target burst damage with interrupts to try to keep them from hitting me back.

So while this usually works on most enemies, I am pwned if there are 3 or more, and I am seriously looking forward to the fixes that will be coming down the pipe.

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO

Bhakura wrote: »

I really dont get where all this negativity is coming from. Im having fun with the game? So there are bugs, nothing i faced is totally game breaking? What game doesnt have bugs at launch?
With every new MMO release complaining and moaning gets louder, what the hell do you people want then? if its that much of an issue, QUIT GAMING or make your own perfect MMO and see how easy it is.
21st century generation the complain generation, jeezes christ

Look, people understand that others haven't been affected by the bugs as much as many of us... we get that, really.

Why then do you feel it necessary to even post on such a thread on the forums?

less-than-effectively "trolling" people with issues? Is your lack of bug-related problems somehow more important than our bug infested experiences?

Or are you actually trying to "tip the scales" in some odd way to show that not everyone is experiencing game-breaking bugs?

If the latter is the case, I'm sorry to tell you, the weight of people with multiple issues & this game far outclasses your singular experience.

Leonardo

I concur 100%.

Liquid_Time

Bhakura wrote: »

I really dont get where all this negativity is coming from. Im having fun with the game? So there are bugs, nothing i faced is totally game breaking? What game doesnt have bugs at launch?
With every new MMO release complaining and moaning gets louder, what the hell do you people want then? if its that much of an issue, QUIT GAMING or make your own perfect MMO and see how easy it is.
21st century generation the complain generation, jeezes christ

Well despite the complaints being annoying and redundant.. Many of them have been helpful in identifying the bugs we are seeing. I will not defend all posts regarding bugs as there are very few productive ones. Now I could have misread your post and responded incorrectly, so if I did. Sorry

Bhakura

Im NB, trust me, i know all about game breakers. So its bugged, wait for a *** fix and have some patience instead of making one thread after the other.
We get it by now, you not happy, usually if im not happy with a situation i change it, cant change it, like games and such, i leave em behind instead of moaning non stop.
And yes i have delays on skills, and yes i had bugged quests i had to leave behind because of not being able to finish, not like theres nothing else to do.
But i guess im some sort of delinquent because im like the only person left alive with some patience apparently.

Liquid_Time

Bhakura wrote: »

Im NB, trust me, i know all about game breakers. So its bugged, wait for a *** fix and have some patience instead of making one thread after the other.
We get it by now, you not happy, usually if im not happy with a situation i change it, cant change it, like games and such, i leave em behind instead of moaning non stop.
And yes i have delays on skills, and yes i had bugged quests i had to leave behind because of not being able to finish, not like theres nothing else to do.
But i guess im some sort of delinquent because im like the only person left alive with some patience apparently.

I do not see this going anywhere. Ranting about rants is no more productive then the original rants.

^ That kind of makes sense haha

Bhakura

As are all rants. So we agree, its useless