Alliance War change to Rapid Maneuvers

pieratsos

johnebrown wrote: »

No its not 5 hours. Skill has nothing to do with earning AP. It's literally just a few BG matches, win or lose the AP is pouring in.

The skill is locked behind a PVP skill line. The fact that u are complaining about non wanting to pvp at all to get it shows exactly that it was essentially given to u. Not earned it.

[snip]

1) If I had to do something I did not want to do to get something (go to Cyrodiil and do anything), then I earned it. [snip]

2) You don't get to define what constitutes real playing for me. I wasn't judging any other player, don't know why you think you are the authority to publicly judge me. I have my own reasons for having that many toons & I'm the one who payed for them. Just because I have 50 toons doesn't mean I need to play them all in any set period of time. I was just offering my opinion about the game and what I didn't like - I though that was one of the reasons for the forum.

[snip]

2. I am not defining what constitutes playing time for you neither am I judging u for having 50 characters. You can have 500 for all I care. That's ur choice. The problem is when u use those 50 characters and ur playing time as an argument to create a hyperbole and say that u have to spend 100+ hours at best to get rapids on all of them which is not a minor inconvenience. We'll I'm sorry but for it to not be a minor inconvenience u would actually have to play those characters and when I say play I don't mean less than 5 minutes a day. Cause that's exactly the playing time u get for 50 toons with 4 hours a day.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

pieratsos

DarcyMardin wrote: »

People keep saying stuff like “it’s just a few BG matches.” So, for someone like me who has never even been in a BG and sucks at PvP, I should just go into a bunch of BG matches, get myself killed, lose the match, and collect AP? How is that fair to the other 3 players I get grouped with?? I would of course *try* to fight, but past PvP experience have shown that I’m terrible at PvP. Again, how is that fair to the players on my team who actually *want* to win their matches?

I just started a third account (because I’ve got this alt obsession). I have zero CP and 3 brand new about-to-be level 10 alts. Their horses barely move above a walk. I need Rapids, and it’ll be the first thing I do at lvl 10–go to Cyrodiil and get that skill. After which I will do a lot of things in the game that in no way involve PvP. But if this change goes live, I’ll be doing it at a crawl for at least 2 months until my horse speed is maxed.

As many others have already suggested, move Rapids to the first skill in support instead of swapping it with Vigor. Move Vigor to the first skill in Whatever the other Alliance line is called. Easy. Done (unless there’s some weirdness with the code). Everybody’s happy.

Not arguing that both abilities couldn't be accessible easier. They could. But seriously u don't have to be a skilled pvp player to do pvp content. There are people with thousands of hours of pvp playing time and they are still terrible at pvp. Same applies for PvE. That doesn't mean it's fair or unfair.

Elvenheart

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

ZOS puts a battlefield taxi in the crown store.

ZOS creates demand for that battlefield taxi by taking Rapids away from a lot of people.

I love this post! 😂

johnebrown

[Quoted post was removed]

Initially I basically said Rapids was not merely given to me - I actually had to do something to get it (54 times) & that to have to do that 50 times all over again was "not a minor inconvenience". I was explaining how I felt & I didn't attack or insult or belittle you in any way. [snip]

But sorry if I hurt your feelings or something. [snip] Best wishes, [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Nyteshade

I'm fine with it. Most games have a start to them that takes time. Having insta speed isn't required, it's a luxury, almost spoiling players. Nothing wrong with a new character facing a few tests and challenges.

Not everything ought to be easy street.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After reivew we have had to edit or remove several posts for Baiting and Non-Constructive Back and Forth. Please ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive and within the rules. Baiting and or fighting other users does not lead to constructive discussions.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

lP01NTBR3AKl

I wish they would just make lvling mount speed, stam and inv an account or specific mount based lvling system not a individual toon thing.
For example I spent a ton of time lvling my main's ride speed and stam when I create a new toon, the speed and stam carries over either for a specific mount or carries over to the new toon all together because its account bound. Even if they raised the cost of the skill to offset it or make it unlockable at a certain lvl.

nk125x

Prob done to sell more of those double mounts so the slow ones can be carried by the fast ones around Cyrodiil

Maleforge

If Vigor has to be easier to get for Stamina classes for their gaming experience, it just means that this skills has nothing to do in the PVP skill tree and should be in the fighter guild tree or, better, replaced by an equivelent stamina option in every class skills.
Vigor is very specific for a PVP general skill tree.

Tranquilizer

Maleforge wrote: »

If Vigor has to be easier to get for Stamina classes for their gaming experience, it just means that this skills has nothing to do in the PVP skill tree and should be in the fighter guild tree or, better, replaced by an equivelent stamina option in every class skills.
Vigor is very specific for a PVP general skill tree.

Agree 100%. If ZOS has to mess up with a dedicated pvp tree to cater pve folks, something's terribly wrong.

merevie

If vigor and rapid riding are essential for pve players then that content should not be locked up in pvp.

Relevant skills =relevant zones.

aetherial_heavenn

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

ZOS puts a battlefield taxi in the crown store.

ZOS creates demand for that battlefield taxi by taking Rapids away from a lot of people.

Please prove us wrong.

Just put vigour no 1 in support and rapids no 1 in assault.

Rapids has had the snare removal nerf already. Won't hurt anyone to make it easier to get and will make a bunch of players from PvP and PvE happy.

Vigor gives stam access to another self heal/group heal. If you can get it by doing the tutorial, all well and good. It's not a bad thing to get early in game, since later on, every class has enough self heals to solo most stuff. Iit wouldn't change much in the way of balance. The OP self heals direction has been set for a long time.

Placing them lower is still an incentive for people to try PvP but doesn't engender outright hostility in those who hate PvP but need these skills for PvE end game or soloing hard content, or farming surveys or doing world bosses.

Making some things easier to get (without going to the store) as the game gets bigger and bigger is sometimes a good thing, IMO. It promotes customer goodwill without breaking the game It also demonstrates ESO is not slipping down the pay-to-win, micro transaction, slope at any opportunity. The stench of that latter approach has ruined many a good game.

Woozywyvern

DarcyMardin wrote: »

People keep saying stuff like “it’s just a few BG matches.” So, for someone like me who has never even been in a BG and sucks at PvP, I should just go into a bunch of BG matches, get myself killed, lose the match, and collect AP? How is that fair to the other 3 players I get grouped with?? I would of course *try* to fight, but past PvP experience have shown that I’m terrible at PvP. Again, how is that fair to the players on my team who actually *want* to win their matches?

I just started a third account (because I’ve got this alt obsession). I have zero CP and 3 brand new about-to-be level 10 alts. Their horses barely move above a walk. I need Rapids, and it’ll be the first thing I do at lvl 10–go to Cyrodiil and get that skill. After which I will do a lot of things in the game that in no way involve PvP. But if this change goes live, I’ll be doing it at a crawl for at least 2 months until my horse speed is maxed.

As many others have already suggested, move Rapids to the first skill in support instead of swapping it with Vigor. Move Vigor to the first skill in Whatever the other Alliance line is called. Easy. Done (unless there’s some weirdness with the code). Everybody’s happy.

Yes you should. That is exactly what I have had to do to get Vigor on all my Stam characters I enjoy playing. [snip] And seriously, as someone else who *sucks* at PVP, and is not their primary focus of the game - you can blitz getting to Assault 5 in well under a week without any real effort.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

richo262

This was a mildly irritating change for me.

So to pre-empt it, I just did BG's on the characters I had that were not level 5. Scored a whole load of style pages, transmutes and AP. Needed transmutes anyway, so I chose to do BG on the characters that had not yet hit level 5.

Probably played 10-15 BG's on each character to get to level 5. From level 0.

Also, why wouldn't anyone want to speed farm out those BG's? The first few alliance ranks are easy to get and give you skill points.

I'm not saying it isn't inconvenient, it is, I'm saying just hammer out some BG's to level 5 and you actually get transmutes, styles, ap, and the knowledge that ZOS changing the order of these skills have 0 effect on you whatsoever.

I now know that when level a new alt, when I hit level 10, spam BG's until I get to level 5 alliance so I can have a horse that is not a potato. Annoying, but if it was a stam character, I was going to do that anyway for Vigor, just means I have to do the BG's sooner in my leveling plan to get Rapids.

MinuitPro

After reading all the concerns over using it for mounted travel, perhaps what should be done here is to take off the Major Gallop from that skill and give it as a permanent buff when mounted after you have X amount in the stamina riding skill (i.e. when your mount can support sprinting for a while). It still gates the Major Expedition (which you can obtain via other skills and potions) but it seems that is less of a concern than the mount in this thread.

Just a thought for ZOS if they need to pursue this change.

richo262

MinuitPro wrote: »

After reading all the concerns over using it for mounted travel, perhaps what should be done here is to take off the Major Gallop from that skill and give it as a permanent buff when mounted after you have X amount in the stamina riding skill (i.e. when your mount can support sprinting for a while). It still gates the Major Expedition (which you can obtain via other skills and potions) but it seems that is less of a concern than the mount in this thread.

Just a thought for ZOS if they need to pursue this change.

I've always held the view that Alliance skills should be merged into 1 tree with Aggressive Horn / Barrier as the morph options for ulti given there is only one clear choice for either (Or alternatively, move Horn to Undaunted). With 5 or 6 skills in that 1 tree. They could also remove Reveal from the game and buff Mage Light and the Fighters Guild one so they are better.

Remove rapids entirely as a skill and have it so that if you double tap shift, it performs a rapids.
20 Speed = 10%
40 Speed = 20%
60 Speed = 30%
20 Stam = 10 seconds
40 Stam = 20 seconds
60 Stam = 30 seconds

However, that would annoy people further given it would take 40 days to get 20 on each. Unless they removed the 1 per day nonsense.

Edit: or
0 Speed = 10%
20 Speed = 20%
40 Speed = 25%
60 Speed = 30%
0 Stam = 10 seconds
20 Stam = 20 seconds
40 Stam = 25 seconds
60 Stam = 30 seconds

That way people start with the ability to HEEYAR! their horse. Essentially making Assisted Rapids addon a default thing without needing to run the addon and risk getting in combat with the skill on the bar.

Zer0_CooL

My crafter now runs cowards and fijords with 3x swift. Problem solved.

Hurbster

I am still gobsmacked that a committee of people thought it was a good idea to swap vigour with rapids. Just swap it with siege shield instead. Everyone wins, everyone is happy.

I really, really would love to hear an explanation as to why this is not being considered. Apart from the usual conspiracy 'double mounts' theories that is.

johnebrown

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

My crafter now runs cowards and fijords with 3x swift. Problem solved.

Hmm... That is a valid thought, though it wouldn't help me personally as all my toons are crafters - so my fighters would either be fast & weak or strong & slow. Good thought though - I run Cowards/Fiords on toons specialized for just doing surveys or Antiquities & It's a great combo.

Obsidian3

Thanks for taking away a skill I have had for six years, and make me regrind for hours to get it back. What is the thinking behind this? We're just gonna bend over and silently take it. Of all the idiotic changes that have been made through the years, this one is the absolute worst.

blackpool9

pieratsos wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Do people seriously find it that hard to do a few BGs to unlock it?

MincVinyl wrote: »

It only takes 10 bg matches to unlock it assuming no kills....on low mmr toon that is barely a grind. Or in cyrodil most farming players easily make the 100k ap in an hour.....I'm sure anyone can manage to get it in two hours if they had to farm it.

Does this logic not also apply to Vigor where it is now? If it's not that big a deal to get to Rank 5 what does it matter either way? Having access to a heal in just a few hours isn't going to make or break anyone's build in the long run, it's a matter of convenience, same with having Rapids. I have no strong opinion either way, but I can see how convenience for a majority of players, regardless of playstyle, is something people feel much stronger about as opposed to convenience that suits only Stam builds that rely on Vigor (aka Classes that don't have their own Stam heal or builds that don't use the heals that DW and 2H have) as their heal.

Its not that big of a deal indeed. Thats why u dont really see anyone complaining about not having vigor. But if u were to compare the two abilities and which one u need earlier then vigor is arguably more essential than rapids. Vigor is essential from a gameplay pov since its the main heal for the majority of stam classes and it also makes the learning experience for new players easier and more enjoyable. Rapids is mostly quality of life. Its very much needed but its still quality of life. Its not needed in combat. So technically if i wanted to have both abilities i would choose to have vigor first to perform better in combat and therefore get rapids easier.

I've leveled 36 characters across two accounts and three servers. Most of those are stam characters. Not once have I ever been playing a level 12 stam character and thought "boy, this sure would be better if I had Vigor right now". But every single time I started a new character, I thought "boy, I can't wait to get to L10 so I can unlock Rapids, because this slow as molasses horse [snip]". And don't give me this "it will only take a couple of hours to unlock Rapids again". 1) I [snip] HATE PvP, and why would I want to spend my valuable free time doing something that I hate, and 2) that's a couple of hours...for 36 CHARACTERS EACH. Including mag characters who have no use for Vigor.

So AFAIAC this is a massive fail from ZoS, it's just a money grab, and I'm cancelling the renewal of my ESO+.

[Edited for Inappropriate Content]

jorasupay

This change obviously affects many of us, and from what I read, not only those of us who prefer PvE ...
(I'm translating, sorry for the mistakes)

I think it is more than obvious that it is a commercial tactic that comes from the hand of the mounts with companions. It is not the first time that they change some mechanics and happen to offer a product that can be bought with money. We have already paid for the game, and some of us have paid for DLCs and subscribed! ... And the irony is that there are many other ways to get money from us and make it happy, like buying bards for our houses or bringing back out of print outfits that new players don't have.

I have 19 characters and after almost 3 years playing only 2 of them have advanced to level 5 of the Assault branch. Sure, some people are recent. Now I'm going to have to go to level up in Cyrodiil "by force" to be able to use an ability that I had been using for years with them ...

Quick Maneuvers is a key skill so that going from one side to the other does not become tedious. In Cyrodiil having this ability or not makes the difference between playing with a group and being relegated running alone in the middle of the field while the battles are defined ...

There are many alternatives to preserve Quick Maneuvers and "bring" Vigor or whatever. They could even have considered changing the learning mechanics of the mount and the speeds. My Nightblade runs faster on the Shadow Road than on horseback!

The question is not whether it is more or less easy to level up, the question is that it is another of so many times that decisions are made knowingly that will harm the gaming experience. Because changing the level for Quick Maneuvers is not a buff or nerf that breaks the gameplay, it just makes it more tedious to go around with new characters.

Uudrost

As someone who's invested much time (5 years) and money I'm extremely disappointed by the change in Rapid Maneuver.
I've never been into PVP and progress towards the new Rapid Maneuver is excruciatingly slow.
But in fairness (as a retired IT worker) I understand that ZOS has to deal with a huge increase in players since many people are staying home due to Covid-19. I'm sure the changes reflected this problem.
I say give them ZOS some time to make adjustments for people not big on PVP.
My ESO subscription is up in December 2020. If nothing changes I'll probably let my subscription lapse.
In the mean time I found Sorcerers, Warden, DragonKnight all have options like Bolt Escape, Falcons and Fiery Grip will help speed things up.
I'm out of luck with my Knightblade, Templar and Necromancer toons.
Good luck and stay safe.

Zephiran23

Another thread with no actual response to the concerns raised. Is there a point to the PTS if feedback does not see a response?

Nirntrotter

While I'm completely in favor of the swap with siege shield, upping the atrocious base speed of a new mount just a little might also be worth discussing?

JoeCapricorn

Surprise surprise! EVERYONE HATES THIS CHANGE for the most part.

ZOS, you didn't even give these people time of day. They were trying to tell you since July.

&$*#&$*#&$*#$&#$*#&$*#&$#*$&#*$&#$*&#*$&#$*&#$*#&$*#&$#*&$#*$&#*$&#*$&#$*&#$*#&$*#&$*#&$*#&#*$&*&#$*&#*$&#*&$*&#$*&#$&#$*&#*$&

114 days left. If an effort to reconcile with the community over this stupid change isn't made, I will cancel my subscription.

OldManJim

I’ve already cancelled 2 subs over this.

They really need to start showing their customers some respect or I’m uninstalling the game.

OG_Kaveman

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Surprise surprise! EVERYONE HATES THIS CHANGE for the most part.

ZOS, you didn't even give these people time of day. They were trying to tell you since July.

&$*#&$*#&$*#$&#$*#&$*#&$#*$&#*$&#$*&#*$&#$*&#$*#&$*#&$#*&$#*$&#*$&#*$&#$*&#$*#&$*#&$*#&$*#&#*$&*&#$*&#*$&#*&$*&#$*&#$&#$*&#*$&

114 days left. If an effort to reconcile with the community over this stupid change isn't made, I will cancel my subscription.

OldManJim wrote: »

I’ve already cancelled 2 subs over this.

They really need to start showing their customers some respect or I’m uninstalling the game.

just get over it, zos is not going to change because you guys have/are threatening to stop giving them money.

OldManJim

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Surprise surprise! EVERYONE HATES THIS CHANGE for the most part.

ZOS, you didn't even give these people time of day. They were trying to tell you since July.

&$*#&$*#&$*#$&#$*#&$*#&$#*$&#*$&#$*&#*$&#$*&#$*#&$*#&$#*&$#*$&#*$&#*$&#$*&#$*#&$*#&$*#&$*#&#*$&*&#$*&#*$&#*&$*&#$*&#$&#$*&#*$&

114 days left. If an effort to reconcile with the community over this stupid change isn't made, I will cancel my subscription.

OldManJim wrote: »

I’ve already cancelled 2 subs over this.

They really need to start showing their customers some respect or I’m uninstalling the game.

just get over it, zos is not going to change because you guys have/are threatening to stop giving them money.

I'm a dissatisfied customer who is letting Zenimax know in a language they understand...money. I'm not going to pay them to ignore our issues & treat us like ***.

If you don't like it, then you can "just get over it".

OG_Kaveman

OldManJim wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

Surprise surprise! EVERYONE HATES THIS CHANGE for the most part.

ZOS, you didn't even give these people time of day. They were trying to tell you since July.

&$*#&$*#&$*#$&#$*#&$*#&$#*$&#*$&#$*&#*$&#$*&#$*#&$*#&$#*&$#*$&#*$&#*$&#$*&#$*#&$*#&$*#&$*#&#*$&*&#$*&#*$&#*&$*&#$*&#$&#$*&#*$&

114 days left. If an effort to reconcile with the community over this stupid change isn't made, I will cancel my subscription.

OldManJim wrote: »

I’ve already cancelled 2 subs over this.

They really need to start showing their customers some respect or I’m uninstalling the game.

just get over it, zos is not going to change because you guys have/are threatening to stop giving them money.

I'm a dissatisfied customer who is letting Zenimax know in a language they understand...money. I'm not going to pay them to ignore our issues & treat us like ***.

If you don't like it, then you can "just get over it".

Bye Felicia- ZoS, probably.