Official Discussion Thread for "Dark Brotherhood Deep-Dive: Grouping Tool Improvements"

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official discussion thread for the blog article Dark Brotherhood Deep-Dive: Grouping Tool Improvements. Check it out to see the features we've added to the Grouping Tool in the upcoming Dark Brotherhood update!

Birdovic

@ZOS_GinaBruno Hey there,

"We're sorry, the page you're looking for can not be found."

Link broken?

Pyr0xyrecuprotite

works for me

ZOS_GinaBruno

Give it a few minutes, might be a caching thing.

Pyr0xyrecuprotite

This is not specifically a Grouping tool question, but I notice that one of the example group members shows as having 695 Champion Points. I understand that in the new update we will see the CP rank of other players, rather than their Veteran rank, but... do we really get to see their TOTAL champion points, rather than a) their being at the max CP160 rank, or b) their being at the current usable cap of 501 CP?

Dagoth_Rac

You should have added extra rewards for doing the current normal/vet pledge through the Group Finder. It still takes forever to get a pledge group via Group Finder because there is no added incentive. It is faster to just spam zone chat near the Undaunted Enclave. But I don't want to spam zone chat for 20 minutes. Nor do I want to wait 3 hours for the pledge group to form via the Group Finder.

Basically the Silver/Gold keys and Undaunted XP are incentives to do pledges. But there is no incentive to do pledges via the Group Finder. The fact that everyone eschews the Group Finder tool to do the most commonly run group content in the game is ... weird. The 15 minute cooldown feels like a stick. The Group Finder needs more carrots, not more sticks.

MopeyHat

I see really frustrating 15-minute waits in my future. Not that I'm leaving any groups - just that I tend to play with guildies and weird glitches are inevitable Maybe we queued for the wrong dungeon and want to requeue. What if a group kicks someone for a reason unrelated to them being a good group member? (I have kicked people because the group finder glitched while my guildie was offline and found two extra players.) Do they have to wait 15 minutes?

Birdovic

Working now

NBrookus

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

You should have added extra rewards for doing the current normal/vet pledge through the Group Finder. It still takes forever to get a pledge group via Group Finder because there is no added incentive. It is faster to just spam zone chat near the Undaunted Enclave. But I don't want to spam zone chat for 20 minutes. Nor do I want to wait 3 hours for the pledge group to form via the Group Finder.

Basically the Silver/Gold keys and Undaunted XP are incentives to do pledges. But there is no incentive to do pledges via the Group Finder. The fact that everyone eschews the Group Finder tool to do the most commonly run group content in the game is ... weird. The 15 minute cooldown feels like a stick. The Group Finder needs more carrots, not more sticks.

Agreed.

ZOS seems intent on removing tanks from the game judging from the most recent group content and tank nerfs. And tanks are the players least like to use the Group Finder. Yet the grouping tool requires a tank. Adding optional group configurations seems like a more important upgrade than adding 15 minute waits.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Pyr0xyrecuprotite wrote: »

This is not specifically a Grouping tool question, but I notice that one of the example group members shows as having 695 Champion Points. I understand that in the new update we will see the CP rank of other players, rather than their Veteran rank, but... do we really get to see their TOTAL champion points, rather than a) their being at the max CP160 rank, or b) their being at the current usable cap of 501 CP?

We're actually planning on capping the display at CP 501, or whatever the current usable cap is in-game. This is live on the PTS now as of the latest update, and is what we're planning to go live with.

Soleya

It would be nice if the group tool had an option for the current pledges so that you know the group you are joining is planning to do the pledge instead of just a dungeon complete.

SpiritedBlaize

Are you planning to put the trials back into the group finder?

DerAlleinTiger

Man, I foresee a lot of 15-minute waits when I get thrown into a group for ICP or WGT with a level 10, 12, and 17...

But I think that's fair enough for the people who just randomly join and leave a perfectly fine, simple dungeon with a solid group. Or the people who supposedly leave the moment they see a sorc-tank in the group without seeing that they have over 40K health, full heavy armor, and a sword and shield because clearly a sorc set for tank has to be some kind of dress tank...

Seriously, I just don't get some people. Sit in the group finder for 20 minutes, get a group, leave immediately without a word. Just... why? At least when I get into a group for WGT or ICP I'll say something and let them know why I am not down for those dungeons, even on regular with my VR16's. Doesn't matter if the rest of them are V16 (I have seen a V16 templar healer do nothing but spam rapids and every couple minutes throw up a single healing shield while saying "We need to rez faster!" whenever wiped), I'm really not down for WGT or ICP with anyone but guildies. And I'll happily let the group know, whether they're VR16 or level 16. But the people who join in on a group for, say, Wayrest Sewers and just immediately leave without a word... I just don't get that.

Hopefully this change will go towards reducing that a bit.

dpgirl

Why can't we choose group make up? What if we don't want a tank, or healer or whatever? I often am on DPS only in group finder Random normal dungeons for like 2 or 3 hours... when on Healer or Tank its like instant to 5 minutes. Something needs to be done more than just 2 DPS and a tank and a healer... because now people are lying just to get a group, then if found out leave. This makes the groups very bad sometimes.

LearnThis

So... I did not read anything about the grouping tool actually working better. I only noticed changes to the grouping tool. @ZOS_GinaBruno Were there any changes to actually improve performance of the grouping tool? I stayed in queue for around 50 minutes over the weekend for a random dungeon just to be placed in the dungeon that was the same as the daily pledge. They were stuck at the final boss. I went in, we killed the boss, and I left. Had I not already completed the pledge, I would have had to run that again. Worse than that though is the fact I waited for around 50 minutes for a random. Are there actually that few people using activity finder that it takes almost an hour for me to join a group?

To everyone else that said they foresee a lot of 15 minutes wait times, I understand. The best comment was the one about having low levels appear in your White Gold Tower runs. I give those groups a try, but if it looks like a waste of time shortly after a few efforts, I get out.

How hard is it for the grouping tool to actually work? If three people all queue up for the grouping tool and are not placed in a group, then why are they not grouped together? If two are dps and one is not, then start making a group instead of trying to fill a group. Better than that, have a lobby or something that you can see groups and just join up. I personally find a lobby to be way outside of the lore but at this point I will take it. I think I am just getting really frustrated with the changes that come out that are not improving the game but just changing it. I read post after post about why Maelstrom weapons are the strongest in the game when it is solo content in an MMO, and what is with poison enchants?!

lithgorin

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Are we ever going to get a fix for having to wait in the queue for ages when we have a full 4 man group already formed? That seems like an easy grouping tool fix. If the group has 4, there is no reason to have a 10-15 minute queue for the dungeon? All we want to do is play with our friends, and this is how we have to battle level folks. :-(

Tsai-NZ

The 15-min cooldown is good idea, but only if the grouping system works. I'm currently at VR11, I get randomly group up with all level 10s often. Can the group finder at least place me with similar level players? Or similar Champion Rank players since vet ranks are being removed. Please consider high level players as well, we're part of the community too!

Edit: Does Alliance War group finder work at all? I've been trying to use that for months now and does nothing except being Queued 100% of the time, I'm on PS4, maybe it works fine on PC I don't know.

Right now the only way to get into a PVP group is wait and hope someone ask.. can we at least have a Quick Chat for console "I need a group please!"

Pyr0xyrecuprotite

Is there any plan to fix the current production bug with the grouping tool, where you cannot queue as a group for WGT or ICP? (You can queue as a solo player, just not if there is more than one person in your group). As far as I know, only those two dungeons are affected by this bug. (PC, NA server - I have no idea whether this affects consoles or not).

Kaspy

Very much agreeing with seeing mostly sticks rather than carrots in all the 'improvements' to the tool. None of these adress the more prominent issues with long queue times (inflexibility of grouping), bugs with joining button often not responding until 20 clicks or such,bugs with larger groups getting created, queue time predition indicator making generally no sense etc.

The 15 minutes cooldown does not solve any real issue imo, will just make queue times even longer for DD's. In my experience a DD will rarely leave a group after a wait of 1+ hour. The one's leaving the newly formed group are usually tanks or healers. Does anyone think those will wait 15 minutes to requeue or rather simply post a LFG message in de chat and get a new group nearly instantly? And if the do decide to wait and requeue so is everyone waiting the extra 15 minutes (or until other tank/healer queues). Doesn't look like a change that will make the LFG tool more attractive to be honest.

What is the point of the ready check really? Will it really stop people who want to rush ahead like headless chickens when others aren't ready? People now often enough don't even react to wait-messages in the chat, why would they pay attention to such a check (unless it stops you from doing anything?)

The vote kick option: so with that change, what is the point of there still being a group leader? What can the group leader still do what other players cannot? Will the vote kick apply to all (partially) formed groups? Assuming majority of vote means 3 players, how will vote kick work if 2 players are AFK for long time or players crahed? Is a person forced to vote or can they ignore it and what is the effect? I have my doubts that this will fix the problem of 'lying tanks/healers' as well since, well, how many DD's (who, again, waited for 1+ hour already) are willing to votekick a member to wait even longer? Which will have the predictable effect on the atmosphere in the group. In general I'm unsure if this change is really an improvement either (aside of rare cases of 'leaders' purposefully destroying someone's run by disbanding a group but how often did that really happen?)

SanTii.92

Not exactly on-topic but are you planning to add the grouping tool functionality for groups who are looking for one or two members for Wgt or Icp or wants to scale any of their members? On live you can queue if you are solo for these but you can't with 2 or more. Thanks @ZOS_GinaBruno

James-Wayne

I would love to see a group finder list of available spots with dungeon selected, total members, their level/class and maybe even if they are starting fresh at the start or is this a group where someone has bailed on the last boss (ie how long has that group been a group for) because I too can spend hours in the group finder and get nothing OR at the very least a option to join both Normal and Vet finder at the same time because sometimes I just want to play one or two dungeons, I don't care which one or who its with... I just want to play and the faster I can do that the faster I can go on with other jobs.

OR

even a counter to see how many people are actually using the finder so I'm not sitting there waiting but there isn't anyone actually using it, being in Australia with the time zones and all this is super important knowing if I should come back later in the night instead.

Kiara88

I always run in dungeons with my guildies and very often we use the dungeon finder, so all the members are scaled to VR16. This for a couple of reasons:
- we can even play with low level characters in a way that is funny for everyone: not too easy for the high levels, to to tricky for the low levels;
- each player gets the loot at his own level.
So, we usually create our group of 4 guildies, then use the dungeon finder to be put in a dungeon (random or specific dungeons): this way we are all scaled to VR16.

I don't understand why, with a group already formed and ready to start, we have to wait at least 5 mins to be put in a dungeon with the dungeon finder...

NewBlacksmurf

@ZOS_GinaBruno
Please add a ready check prior to forming the group.

This is a prompt to accept the activity finder group invite rather than just grouping ppl.

The purpose is so those who join the group are all members who aren't away from the keyboard or game.
This should pop-up just like the group invites and allow up to 60-90 secs to accept.

This removes any need to kick a player or wait for a player who is away and maybe not coming back for a while.

WolfWarrior84

lithgorin wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Are we ever going to get a fix for having to wait in the queue for ages when we have a full 4 man group already formed? That seems like an easy grouping tool fix. If the group has 4, there is no reason to have a 10-15 minute queue for the dungeon? All we want to do is play with our friends, and this is how we have to battle level folks. :-(

I was running 4 man groups and doing the random queue over the weekend and last week the longest we waited was 2 to 3 min. not related to this comment but i like the fact it makes you have a proper group to get in the dungeon but what i hate is the dps saying they are a tank just to get into something, understand why they do it there are so many dps in game and not many support players i love healing and tanking way more fun than going dps in my opinion. it should be an option if you want a correct group or not that way people can queue for what they want and not lie about their role just to get a fast queue.
also @ZOS_GinaBruno if we do a random queue and it is for a dungeon we dont want to do and we leave that will we be punished for it there are some dungeons i dont want to do with random people.

RomansXXI

PLEDGES IN THE GROUP TOOL PLEASE! I once waited 2 hours to get into a group just so I could complete a pledge. I'm on console so text chat isn't an option and waiting for the specific dungeon in group finder takes for ever.

Also when getting into a group the option for "travel now or later" needs to be fixed. If I select later and I need like a minute to stop at a merchant and clear my inventory or finish picking a lockbox please let me! I've been auto ported to the dungeon 30 seconds after selecting later and have missed out of turning in a quest (specifically a main story which you have to repeat if you leave the zone) or am doing thievery and am just one more pick away from loot.

Please extend this timer to at least 3-5 minutes! This would make a huge difference especially since the wait for the group finder is so ridiculously long that I do other things while I'm waiting which means I'm not always ready to port to the dungeon within a minute.

Can we also please have text chat for groups on console??? It's very hard to communicate if you don't have a headset or don't want to use one

Soleya

Tsai-NZ wrote: »

The 15-min cooldown is good idea, but only if the grouping system works. I'm currently at VR11, I get randomly group up with all level 10s often. Can the group finder at least place me with similar level players? Or similar Champion Rank players since vet ranks are being removed. Please consider high level players as well, we're part of the community too!

Don't be quick to judge low levels.

When I was level 24 with my Templar, with battle leveling I had 30k health and 42k magicka, with 2500 regen. I couldn't run out of magicka to heal if I tried. It also helps when you have 400 champion points, which you can't tell by looking at someones non vet level.


What I want to know is what happens when you end up in a group of five and can't join the dungeon because the group finder doesn't work properly (Happened to me last night https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2986520 ). Does this mean when you leave the group since you can't join (if it even lets you leave, see my other post), will you have to sit through a cooldown?

Sansoul

Having played nearly every MMO since Merdian 59 and MUDs for years before that.... the problems I see with grouping in this game stem from farm deeper places than anything these low-hanging fruit changes will fix.

Once again, I find myself leaving this game because of the poor end-game and grouping experience.

Mostly because of these younger, self-entitled. bratty generations but also due to just plain poor game design and lack of vision.

Tsai-NZ

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Tsai-NZ wrote: »

The 15-min cooldown is good idea, but only if the grouping system works. I'm currently at VR11, I get randomly group up with all level 10s often. Can the group finder at least place me with similar level players? Or similar Champion Rank players since vet ranks are being removed. Please consider high level players as well, we're part of the community too!

Don't be quick to judge low levels.

When I was level 24 with my Templar, with battle leveling I had 30k health and 42k magicka, with 2500 regen. I couldn't run out of magicka to heal if I tried. It also helps when you have 400 champion points, which you can't tell by looking at someones non vet level.


What I want to know is what happens when you end up in a group of five and can't join the dungeon because the group finder doesn't work properly (Happened to me last night https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2986520 ). Does this mean when you leave the group since you can't join (if it even lets you leave, see my other post), will you have to sit through a cooldown?

I should probably ask, what happens when I get into a group on Normal with all level 10s, which I literally did last night, but left. Does the dungeon scale up to VR16 because of me? does that mean dungeon mobs/bosses are harder to kill for the level 10s? I'm not sure if anyone does, but I just don't feel good being a VR11 with level 10 and making the dungeon harder for them because of me, rather I left and they grab another level 10, 20 or 30 and enjoy their dungeon experience.

Edit: Can we also have Quick Chat text on console for "Thank you" :P I've had some nice players that gave me gear at the end of dungeon runs and I feel terrible not being able to say Thank you

Dagoth_Rac

Tsai-NZ wrote: »

I should probably ask, what happens when I get into a group on Normal with all level 10s, which I literally did last night, but left. Does the dungeon scale up to VR16 because of me? does that mean dungeon mobs/bosses are harder to kill for the level 10s? I'm not sure if anyone does, but I just don't feel good being a VR11 with level 10 and making the dungeon harder for them because of me, rather I left and they grab another level 10, 20 or 30 and enjoy their dungeon experience.

If you are using the Group Finder tool, all players and all monsters are essentially scaled to VR16. Whether it is four Level 10, or three Level 10 and one VR16, or a Level 10 and a Level 20 and a Level 30 and a Level 40. While those low level players may be at a disadvantage due to having fewer skills/passives unlocked or having less gameplay experience, their stats are buffed by the Group Finder to be just as good if not better than a "true" VR16. The enemies in dungeon would have same strength whether your VR16 character is there or not. The other players in dungeon would have same strength whether your VR16 character is there or not.

Tsai-NZ

Oh ok, thats good then, thanks! I guess it can still be difficult. It shows that the dungeon is scale to vr16, never really say if the party was, the text on console isn't great either, no text log to see what's been previously announced.. text just shows up for a second and gone forever. We need some sort of text log on console

Soleya

Tsai-NZ wrote: »

Oh ok, thats good then, thanks! I guess it can still be difficult. It shows that the dungeon is scale to vr16, never really say if the party was, the text on console isn't great either, no text log to see what's been previously announced.. text just shows up for a second and gone forever. We need some sort of text log on console

Stat wise, my level 20's character was buffed higher than any V16 I have. Not having some skills can make it harder (for example templar not having radiant destruction for burning bosses).

It also matters if the players know what they are doing. I'll take 3 level 10s who have V16's alts and completed every dungeon, over 3 V16's that never completed a single dungeon any day.