Do Champion Points Really Help Players Get More Powerful?

Personofsecrets

I'm having a hard time understanding the effects of champion points. I'm told that my stats, regeneration, and penetration will all go up if I invest champion points into certain specifications.

I really don't understand how that happens though. Is it really true that I will be more powerful with more champion points? Becoming more powerful due to have more champion points would have tons of repercussions. I mean, I would be doing more damage, doing more healing, and taking less damage. I just have a hard time accepting that.

Personofsecrets

I'm really hoping that you all can explain to me how champion points make a player more powerful. I just am not getting it.

RoyJade

Yes

You got some good increase with CP (more healing, more damage, more regen, less cost) from 15 to 25% depending of the star, plus the constellation bonus (12% critical mainly). But the main change is that each time you spend a CP, you get some stat. I don't remember how many exactly, perhaps a +25 for each CP (red = life, blue = magicka, green = stamina).

ontheleftcoast

Yes

There's a reason people grind CP and it isn't to have a cool hairstyle or pink horse. It's because it buffs your toons -- all of them. If done right it buffs them a lot. You can get advantages like 10% less magicka per spell cast which means you stay in a fight longer, or 10% extra damage means you don't need to. ;D And 10% faster recovery means you're ready for the next one sooner. Each point gained/spent may have diminishing returns but added together it's a powerful effect. I recently clicked over 200 CP and as an experiment respec'd one of my toons to run with and without those points. It makes a significant difference.

Groggpuffar

Yes

Isn't it pretty self-explanatory? Better physical/spell resistance, reduced magicka/stamina cost, better heal, better regeneration.

I'm a total rookie at champion points as I do only have two (lol) but yes, it does make you more powerful

Personofsecrets

Groggpuffar wrote: »

Isn't it pretty self-explanatory? Better physical/spell resistance, reduced magicka/stamina cost, better heal, better regeneration.

I'm a total rookie at champion points as I do only have two (lol) but yes, it does make you more powerful

Well that is some peoples opinions, but really champion points can't be that big of a deal. It's not like players with champion points are better off than players without. Right?

Personofsecrets

RoyJade wrote: »

You got some good increase with CP (more healing, more damage, more regen, less cost) from 15 to 25% depending of the star, plus the constellation bonus (12% critical mainly). But the main change is that each time you spend a CP, you get some stat. I don't remember how many exactly, perhaps a +25 for each CP (red = life, blue = magicka, green = stamina).

Yea, I just added a point and got 18 magic. I don't get how that makes me more powerful though.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Yes

You get increased stats/other bonuses without any downside. How would this not make you stronger?

ontheleftcoast

Yes

Personofsecrets wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

You got some good increase with CP (more healing, more damage, more regen, less cost) from 15 to 25% depending of the star, plus the constellation bonus (12% critical mainly). But the main change is that each time you spend a CP, you get some stat. I don't remember how many exactly, perhaps a +25 for each CP (red = life, blue = magicka, green = stamina).

Yea, I just added a point and got 18 magic. I don't get how that makes me more powerful though.

One point isn't as much as one level of XP, granted. But a little more magicka means your spells are a little more powerful. Not a lot, but some. And you also made the other toons in your stable stronger. Because it doesn't matter which toon gains the CP, all them can use it. So a sorcerer can use his points to buff his staff light attacks and his magicka regen and light armor and your stamina NB can use theirs to buff bladed weapon damage, stamina regen, and medium armor. That's pretty amazing. Grind on one toon and make up to 8 of them better? Umm, what's not to love about that?

Personofsecrets

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

You get increased stats/other bonuses without any downside. How would this not make you stronger?

Well, really it comes down to player skill. It's not like a group of players that have many champion points, but are unskilled, are going to be better off than players who have few champion points, but are very skilled.

Tell me one thing. When you see someone on the top of the leader boards do you think that they must be skilled or do you think that they must have some small champion point advantage over other players. I mean, in a group of 12 people, so what if one of them has 1000 champion points - that one player couldn't make the raid a higher score just by themselves. Could they?

Flameheart

Yes

Although your remarks to your vote sound pretty unhonest to me (you behave like a suprised child, that just realized that there is no Santa Claus, sorry this hard to believe for a 5-star-poster...), because just having a look on the system and investing some points into it makes it clear.

Of course they do, but not every CP slot makes sense for every build and if you start to stack CPs in certain, favored slots diminishing returns will kick in after a 5% power increase and and will even more severely kick in after a 10% power increase.

In addition CPs will increase your health, magicka and stamina somewhat according to the number of points you invested into the "red", "green" and "blue" areas.

It's called horizontal power increase instead of vertical power increase (gain levels).

I have to admit I like the system, because it's an alternative to further character developement other MMOs do not offer (there the system is called -> get max lvl -> grind gear mostly by raiding -> wait for lvl cap raise and cry on the forum because all your hard earned gear is worthless now), but I see disadvantages too.

There needs to be some sort of catch up mechanic for totally new players and you might have issues with content difficulty scaling as a developer.

Etaniel

Yes

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Groggpuffar wrote: »

Isn't it pretty self-explanatory? Better physical/spell resistance, reduced magicka/stamina cost, better heal, better regeneration.

I'm a total rookie at champion points as I do only have two (lol) but yes, it does make you more powerful

Well that is some peoples opinions, but really champion points can't be that big of a deal. It's not like players with champion points are better off than players without. Right?

How do you not understand it? Every CP you place grants you a tiny bit of stats in the according colour (green stamina, red health, blue magicka) in addition to giving you a small bonus in the star that you placed it in. A player with 300 CP will have something like 2k of every stats more than someone with zero CP, and will have higher regens, lower costs, and more damage. How is this hard to understand?

Personofsecrets

It isn't like champion points lower the skill ceiling that players must reach in order to trump certain content.

Asmael

Yes

Totally not a troll poll without a rhetorical question.

Personofsecrets

Etaniel wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Groggpuffar wrote: »

Isn't it pretty self-explanatory? Better physical/spell resistance, reduced magicka/stamina cost, better heal, better regeneration.

I'm a total rookie at champion points as I do only have two (lol) but yes, it does make you more powerful

Well that is some peoples opinions, but really champion points can't be that big of a deal. It's not like players with champion points are better off than players without. Right?

How do you not understand it? Every CP you place grants you a tiny bit of stats in the according colour (green stamina, red health, blue magicka) in addition to giving you a small bonus in the star that you placed it in. A player with 300 CP will have something like 2k of every stats more than someone with zero CP, and will have higher regens, lower costs, and more damage. How is this hard to understand?

It really just boils down to skill. I have a hard time believing that if any skilled players champion points were shuffled around tomorrow that they would notice a change in their ability to clear content.

BuggeX

No

No, still the Playerskill and Gear will do more than 1000 CPs

Personofsecrets

Asmael wrote: »

Totally not a troll poll without a rhetorical question.

Please do not derail the conversation.

RoyJade

Yes

I have an example : I have 350 cp, a friend of me has 700 cp. Our sorc have exactly the same gear. With all my buff, I have 2600 spell damage and 38k magicka, he has 3000 spell damage and 42k magicka. Why ?
For the magicka, he has more life, so more attribute point spend in magicka for the same life, and more magicka with cp. With all our boost, the difference is huge.
For the spell damage, I have some trouble for substain, so I have magicka recovery and cost decrease enchant on my jewel. He hasn't any problem because of CP, so he has spell damage enchant.

With 350 more cp, he does roughly 15% more damage.

Personofsecrets

Flameheart wrote: »

Although your remarks to your vote sound pretty unhonest to me (you behave like a suprised child, that just realized that there is no Santa Claus, sorry this hard to believe for a 5-star-poster...), because just having a look on the system and investing some points into it makes it clear.

Of course they do, but not every CP slot makes sense for every build and if you start to stack CPs in certain, favorited slots diminishing returns will kick in after a 5% power increase and and will even more severely kick in after a 10% power increase.

In addition CPs will increase your health, magicka and stamina somewhat according to the number of points you invested into the "red", "green" and "blue" areas.

It's called horizontal power increase instead of vertical power increase (gain levels).

I have to admit I like the system, because it's an alternative to further character developement other MMOs do not offer (there the system is called -> get max lvl -> grind gear mostly by raiding -> wait for lvl cap raise and cry on the forum because all your hard earned gear is worthless now), but I see disadvantages too.

There needs to be some sort of catch up mechanic for totally new players and you might have issues with content difficulty scaling as a developer.

I don't get why we need a catch up mechanic if there are diminished returns per champion point investment. I mean, wont everyone be mostly the same in power level because of those diminished returns?

Winterpsy

No

It creates a welcome deversity.

But I dont find them (even the unlockable ones) so powerful that it would make a difference.
Actually if I encounter a player who is obviously not a rookie anymore, likely have enough champion points already too.
Once you achieved a decent ammount, you already became more skillful due to practice.

It's a theory of course, having no means to get the exact numbers on console.

Hm, gives me an idea to run a test with and without CPs in a campaign for a set duration of time, minimizing all the possible variables to see what end results I'd get. Heh, too bad I just dont care about this that much to bother myself with it.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

Yes

UMM Real easy, Mighy in the Ritual, under the MAGE in the CP system, you put 100 pts in, get 24% more damage when is comes to melee/weapon damage. That is a Huge amount. HUGE, and I know people who have it maxed..

Jultzy

Yes

Personofsecrets wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

You get increased stats/other bonuses without any downside. How would this not make you stronger?

Well, really it comes down to player skill. It's not like a group of players that have many champion points, but are unskilled, are going to be better off than players who have few champion points, but are very skilled.

Tell me one thing. When you see someone on the top of the leader boards do you think that they must be skilled or do you think that they must have some small champion point advantage over other players. I mean, in a group of 12 people, so what if one of them has 1000 champion points - that one player couldn't make the raid a higher score just by themselves. Could they?

When I see someone on top of the ladder I just think. Oh boy he/she must really spend all his time in this game

But more on topic, champion points give an advantage and with few it may be hard to see, but imagine a new player coming in with 0 point going up against someone whose managed to grind all 3000 points. I really cant see how the guy with 0 points should ever beat the guy with 3000 unless the skill difference is unimaginable huge.

Besides the champion points probobly affects pve more than pvp. Pve is more about damage rotations and avoiding fire. With those champion points you will not only passively do more damage in pve but also passively take less damage. Same goes for the healers and the group with more champion points will just have such a huge advantage towards the ones with less (ofc the champion point difference matters. 1 more champion point wont do much, but 100 will)

Personofsecrets

BuggeX wrote: »

No, still the Playerskill and Gear will do more than 1000 CPs

Exactly! Players get much more from their gear than they could possibly get from champion points.

Personofsecrets

Winterpsy wrote: »

It creates a welcome deversity.

But I dont find them (even the unlockable ones) so powerful that it would make a difference.
Actually if I encounter a player who is obviously not a rookie anymore, likely have enough champion points already too.
Once you achieved a decent ammount, you already became more skillful due to practice.

It's a theory of course, having no means to get the exact numbers on console.

Hm, gives me an idea to run a test with and without CPs in a campaign for a set duration of time, minimizing all the possible variables to see what end results I'd get. Heh, too bad I just dont care about this that much to bother myself with it.

Well, you don't really need to test. We all know that player skill is the most important factor in this game and that is regardless of what your test may find.

Personofsecrets

Jultzy wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

You get increased stats/other bonuses without any downside. How would this not make you stronger?

Well, really it comes down to player skill. It's not like a group of players that have many champion points, but are unskilled, are going to be better off than players who have few champion points, but are very skilled.

Tell me one thing. When you see someone on the top of the leader boards do you think that they must be skilled or do you think that they must have some small champion point advantage over other players. I mean, in a group of 12 people, so what if one of them has 1000 champion points - that one player couldn't make the raid a higher score just by themselves. Could they?

When I see someone on top of the ladder I just think. Oh boy he/she must really spend all his time in this game

But more on topic, champion points give an advantage and with few it may be hard to see, but imagine a new player coming in with 0 point going up against someone whose managed to grind all 3000 points. I really cant see how the guy with 0 points should ever beat the guy with 3000 unless the skill difference is unimaginable huge.

Besides the champion points probobly affects pve more than pvp. Pve is more about damage rotations and avoiding fire. With those champion points you will not only passively do more damage in pve but also passively take less damage. Same goes for the healers and the group with more champion points will just have such a huge advantage towards the ones with less (ofc the champion point difference matters. 1 more champion point wont do much, but 100 will)

Wow, I guess that is why my raid leader has been telling everyone to have at least 40 points into thick skinned. You have brought up a really interesting perspective.

Winterpsy

No

Well yeah, it'd just solve the endlessly upcoming moaning about champ points.

Tricky is to set them apart, skill and CPs, since they usually are advancing hand in hand. (even if you are totally untalented, spending -that- much time in game, would make you become somewhat better, but then again if you are that untalented, no 23% extra damage would save your hide)

Personofsecrets

Winterpsy wrote: »

Well yeah, it'd just solve the endlessly upcoming moaning about champ points.

Tricky is to set them apart, skill and CPs, since they usually are advancing hand in hand. (even if you are totally untalented, spending -that- much time in game, would make you become somewhat better, but then again if you are that untalented, no 23% extra damage would save your hide)

Yea, you would figure that someone who knows how to grind is far enough into the game that those grind points wouldn't become a crutch for them or enable them to do that much more than what they could do without the points.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Yes

Personofsecrets wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

You get increased stats/other bonuses without any downside. How would this not make you stronger?

Well, really it comes down to player skill. It's not like a group of players that have many champion points, but are unskilled, are going to be better off than players who have few champion points, but are very skilled.

Tell me one thing. When you see someone on the top of the leader boards do you think that they must be skilled or do you think that they must have some small champion point advantage over other players. I mean, in a group of 12 people, so what if one of them has 1000 champion points - that one player couldn't make the raid a higher score just by themselves. Could they?

The point is that high CP and low skill means you're bad, but on a higher level. If you have two equally skilled groups and one has higher CP, this group will be better without question.

And as for the argument that you get much more from your gear than from your CP, you have to see the whole picture. More CP allows for OTHER gear choices, making you stronger than the person without this choice. For example, CP increase your sustain, lower your costs and increase healing/damage of your skills. You get much more effective, and since you don't have to get sustain from your gear anymore you can go for higher damage.

How anyone can see this as everything but a gain in power...

Rosveen

Yes

You have higher stats with champion points than without. You're more powerful by way of pure mathematical advantage. How substantial the advantage is and if it can be a substitute for player skill, equipment etc., that's a whole different question.

Personofsecrets

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

You get increased stats/other bonuses without any downside. How would this not make you stronger?

Well, really it comes down to player skill. It's not like a group of players that have many champion points, but are unskilled, are going to be better off than players who have few champion points, but are very skilled.

Tell me one thing. When you see someone on the top of the leader boards do you think that they must be skilled or do you think that they must have some small champion point advantage over other players. I mean, in a group of 12 people, so what if one of them has 1000 champion points - that one player couldn't make the raid a higher score just by themselves. Could they?

The point is that high CP and low skill means you're bad, but on a higher level. If you have two equally skilled groups and one has higher CP, this group will be better without question.

And as for the argument that you get much more from your gear than from your CP, you have to see the whole picture. More CP allows for OTHER gear choices, making you stronger than the person without this choice. For example, CP increase your sustain, lower your costs and increase healing/damage of your skills. You get much more effective, and since you don't have to get sustain from your gear anymore you can go for higher damage.

How anyone can see this as everything but a gain in power...

I think that I am starting to come around. Answer me this though.

Could this champion point "power gain" effect be seen in a group or raid? I mean, a dungeon like Veteran White Gold Tower is easy and I can't imagine that champion points could possibly make a difference for a group that is trying to complete it. It's not like 40 points into elemental defender is really going to protect a lesser skilled player against any of the bosses in that dungeons.

BuggeX

No

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

You get increased stats/other bonuses without any downside. How would this not make you stronger?

Well, really it comes down to player skill. It's not like a group of players that have many champion points, but are unskilled, are going to be better off than players who have few champion points, but are very skilled.

Tell me one thing. When you see someone on the top of the leader boards do you think that they must be skilled or do you think that they must have some small champion point advantage over other players. I mean, in a group of 12 people, so what if one of them has 1000 champion points - that one player couldn't make the raid a higher score just by themselves. Could they?

The point is that high CP and low skill means you're bad, but on a higher level. If you have two equally skilled groups and one has higher CP, this group will be better without question.

And as for the argument that you get much more from your gear than from your CP, you have to see the whole picture. More CP allows for OTHER gear choices, making you stronger than the person without this choice. For example, CP increase your sustain, lower your costs and increase healing/damage of your skills. You get much more effective, and since you don't have to get sustain from your gear anymore you can go for higher damage.

How anyone can see this as everything but a gain in power...

Do you think 25% max Magicka Regen and lower cost will help you sustain a fight for longer without Gear wich do the same?
Since CP increes % and not Flat numbers, it only push you in one direction,