Nerf Resistance scaling or tanking

Expert · November 2019

Since everyone falls back on TLDR, or OP died by this or that. or a nerf this thread.

Lets see your constructive criticism

Want specifics? Okay, healing power has increased a lot lately. Defile options has been nerfed a lot in the past, and now we have a gap of immortality when it comes to trying to outplay the strong healing power it has. Maybe templars... maybe you'll just get offended. Tanks happen to live through because of strong healing power, it's easier to stack resistances than it is to stack penetration. Change my mind.

Cheers

Nerftheforums · November 2019

Expert wrote: »

Since everyone falls back on TLDR, or OP died by this or that. or a nerf this thread.

Lets see your constructive criticism

Want specifics? Okay, healing power has increased a lot lately. Defile options has been nerfed a lot in the past, and now we have a gap of immortality when it comes to trying to outplay the strong healing power it has. Maybe templars... maybe you'll just get offended. Tanks happen to live through because of strong healing power, it's easier to stack resistances than it is to stack penetration. Change my mind.

Cheers

It is also extremely easier to have access to minor maim (low lash, shade, sets, etc) and minor protection (psijic ult, res buffs for Wardens, templar passives, etc) than it is to have access to minor berserker (evil hunter and slimecraw, and warden obviously cuz warden cannot have evrry buff in the game) and minor vulnerability (concussion, ambush/lotus, warden flies cuz again warden must have everything). Same for major mending, which is accessible from class skills by dks and Wardens (and necros?), whereas major defile comes only from 1 set, warden skills (again, lol), necro blast bones, standard (for whoever is crazy enough to use that skill) and soul harvest.

juhislihis19 · November 2019

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Expert wrote: »

Since everyone falls back on TLDR, or OP died by this or that. or a nerf this thread.

Lets see your constructive criticism

Want specifics? Okay, healing power has increased a lot lately. Defile options has been nerfed a lot in the past, and now we have a gap of immortality when it comes to trying to outplay the strong healing power it has. Maybe templars... maybe you'll just get offended. Tanks happen to live through because of strong healing power, it's easier to stack resistances than it is to stack penetration. Change my mind.

Cheers

It is also extremely easier to have access to minor maim (low lash, shade, sets, etc) and minor protection (psijic ult, res buffs for Wardens, templar passives, etc) than it is to have access to minor berserker (evil hunter and slimecraw, and warden obviously cuz warden cannot have evrry buff in the game) and minor vulnerability (concussion, ambush/lotus, warden flies cuz again warden must have everything). Same for major mending, which is accessible from class skills by dks and Wardens (and necros?), whereas major defile comes only from 1 set, warden skills (again, lol), necro blast bones, standard (for whoever is crazy enough to use that skill) and soul harvest.

Hmm, I don't think Necro's have Major Mending..?

But yeah, it's crazy how Warden has access pretty much to every meaningful buff in the game.. and it's not like they asked for them..

Nerftheforums · November 2019

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Expert wrote: »

Since everyone falls back on TLDR, or OP died by this or that. or a nerf this thread.

Lets see your constructive criticism

Want specifics? Okay, healing power has increased a lot lately. Defile options has been nerfed a lot in the past, and now we have a gap of immortality when it comes to trying to outplay the strong healing power it has. Maybe templars... maybe you'll just get offended. Tanks happen to live through because of strong healing power, it's easier to stack resistances than it is to stack penetration. Change my mind.

Cheers

It is also extremely easier to have access to minor maim (low lash, shade, sets, etc) and minor protection (psijic ult, res buffs for Wardens, templar passives, etc) than it is to have access to minor berserker (evil hunter and slimecraw, and warden obviously cuz warden cannot have evrry buff in the game) and minor vulnerability (concussion, ambush/lotus, warden flies cuz again warden must have everything). Same for major mending, which is accessible from class skills by dks and Wardens (and necros?), whereas major defile comes only from 1 set, warden skills (again, lol), necro blast bones, standard (for whoever is crazy enough to use that skill) and soul harvest.

Hmm, I don't think Necro's have Major Mending..?

But yeah, it's crazy how Warden has access pretty much to every meaningful buff in the game.. and it's not like they asked for them..

Ye idk about necro, not sure, I never played or had issues in fighting that class, so I never investigated it properly.
On warden I agree, what triggers me most is the fact that they receive buffs that were defining of other classes (major mending from templars and dks, minor berserker from nb, vulnerability from nb with dragonhold, etc) without ever asking for them, while the original classes saw their toolkit becoming poorer and poorer in favour of warden. I believe it now has all buffs in the game except major maim? Not sure. Surely this does not contribute to make it one of the tankiest classes in the game

iCaliban · November 2019

Resistances are not the reason for the "tank meta." Sword and board is about 80% of the reason, and cross healing being too strong is the other 20%.

S/B blocking needs to be added to battlespirit. Not only does it massively buff block mitigation, but it also reduces the cost too much.

Tommy_The_Gun · November 2019

I am not surprised by tanky meta, since everything that was meant to counter tanks (Werewolves, bleed dmg mechanics, oblivion dmg, defile, etc.) was vote-nerfed to oblivion.

It is hilarious to see people who previously were bragging about those things and how those were broken, now that those things are gone are like: "We dont have counter to tanks"

This is how blind call for nerfs ends. With broken game balance eco-system... lol ?

Nerftheforums · November 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am not surprised by tanky meta, since everything that was meant to counter tanks (Werewolves, bleed dmg mechanics, oblivion dmg, defile, etc.) was vote-nerfed to oblivion.

It is hilarious to see people who previously were bragging about those things and how those were broken, now that those things are gone are like: "We dont have counter to tanks"

This is how blind call for nerfs ends. With broken game balance eco-system... lol ?

Well, those "counters" you mentioned were more damaging to less tanky characters than to the tanks. I am not saying that they weren't good against tanks, but a low resistance to on had definitely more issue in dealing with heavy defile spam (typical of snb setups ironically) and bleeds than a tank with massive healing capacity and resistances against other types of damage.
ZoS simply doesn't know exactly how to balance the situation here.

MartiniDaniels · November 2019

Just throw debuff to healing done in battle spirit. Something like -15% to healing done. Adjust higher/lower depending on feedback.

Expert · November 2019

They need to enlarge the resistance cap just like they did with shield cap. Change my mind

Ragnarock41 · November 2019

The answer is to LITERALLY nerf healing. The reason heals were buffed was because dots were also buffed. Now dots are WORSE than what it was before the buff. So the only logical answer is to nerf healing by at least %20-30.

Nord_Raseri · November 2019

Another garbage nerf thread

NBrookus · November 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am not surprised by tanky meta, since everything that was meant to counter tanks (Werewolves, bleed dmg mechanics, oblivion dmg, defile, etc.) was vote-nerfed to oblivion.

All of these were a lot stronger against non-tanks than tanks. Onslaught is closer but misses the mark as well.

Lokey0024 · November 2019

How about healers heal, dps do damage. I heard a decent suggestion on making max stat scale healing and WD/SD scale abilities and both scale heavy/light attacks. Defensive abilities can scale WD/SP or Max stat and health.

I'm sick of fighting a group of 9 healers that just use AoE heals and run the entire fight until ult dumps. Their health barely moves unless you ball group too.

But this late in implementing might *** off a bunch of players, especially on the heels of so much change already.

Lokey0024 · November 2019

iCaliban wrote: »

Resistances are not the reason for the "tank meta." Sword and board is about 80% of the reason, and cross healing being too strong is the other 20%.

S/B blocking needs to be added to battlespirit. Not only does it massively buff block mitigation, but it also reduces the cost too much.

It would damage 1v1 fighting to much. It's the only option for classes that can't kite. Imo closer to 90% cross healing with almost no access/weak defile mechanics. Blocking chews Stam fast, it has to be built into, sacrificing damage/regen of primary focus stats.

Lughlongarm · November 2019

Well if you go over ZOS recent changes, this is exactly the theme they are going with.
Protective trait has been nerfed from 1844 to 1190 last patch
Fortified Brass has bee nefed this patch to be in line with the value of 3 protective traits(3460 ).
Proceeding with the same mathematical logic , they should also nerf tons of other stuff(defensive sets/race passives etc...) to maintain consistency.

For example - Nord bonus resistances is now > Fortified Brass 5 bonus and the value of 3 protective traits. This is a "rule breaker" if you compare it directly to other races and the way races were balanced.

Not sure how they will proceed, but it is funny how they put a lot of effort in standardize values in the game, just mess up their work a patch after.

But Based on the description of your observations, resistances are probably the last offender.
resistances are in a good spot ATM if you ask me , if anything they should revoke the changes to 'Fortified Brass', it doesn't make any scene if you leave the rest of the values as is.

The obvious first offender is the way heals scale in this game.
If SP/WP / max stats sets can do the same damage as a pen set and also boost your heals, it is obviously an issue. A glass cannon in ESO is also the strongest healer. It is a strange design. There is also the crit problem, offensive crits in pvp are basically 28% weaker due to the impen armor trait(which is a basically almost a free stat). Heals on the other hand get the full benefit critical healing, this is a massive discrepancy between damage and healing potential.

Second offender is dots vs block topic.
When donts are weak, burst is king. burst is weak vs prema block builds.

Abyssmol · November 2019

How about heals would only apply to the caster in PVP... That would take care of the unkillable ball groups spamming heals and healing each other.

iCaliban · November 2019

Lokey0024 wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Resistances are not the reason for the "tank meta." Sword and board is about 80% of the reason, and cross healing being too strong is the other 20%.

S/B blocking needs to be added to battlespirit. Not only does it massively buff block mitigation, but it also reduces the cost too much.

It would damage 1v1 fighting to much. It's the only option for classes that can't kite. Imo closer to 90% cross healing with almost no access/weak defile mechanics. Blocking chews Stam fast, it has to be built into, sacrificing damage/regen of primary focus stats.

No not really. Every single class in the game has access to speed now due to race against time and quick cloak/roll dodge with bow or mistform.

I am not saying S/B should be gutted, simply that the blame for the tank meta lies squarely with that weapon set. Ive seen single players tank multiple opponents in no cp bgs and nearly always they have s/b equipped.

Off healing and self heals are not too strong unless stacked with s/b.

NBrookus · November 2019

Abyssmol wrote: »

How about heals would only apply to the caster in PVP... That would take care of the unkillable ball groups spamming heals and healing each other.

Right, because screw those people who like to play healers.

Xvorg · November 2019

iCaliban wrote: »

Resistances are not the reason for the "tank meta." Sword and board is about 80% of the reason, and cross healing being too strong is the other 20%.

S/B blocking needs to be added to battlespirit. Not only does it massively buff block mitigation, but it also reduces the cost too much.

why?

Xvorg · November 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am not surprised by tanky meta, since everything that was meant to counter tanks (Werewolves, bleed dmg mechanics, oblivion dmg, defile, etc.) was vote-nerfed to oblivion.

It is hilarious to see people who previously were bragging about those things and how those were broken, now that those things are gone are like: "We dont have counter to tanks"

This is how blind call for nerfs ends. With broken game balance eco-system... lol ?

Pretty much this

Xvorg · November 2019

Abyssmol wrote: »

How about heals would only apply to the caster in PVP... That would take care of the unkillable ball groups spamming heals and healing each other.

Why?

Xvorg · November 2019

Ok, first of all, nerfing block is not going to solve any issue since there are classes that live on blocking dmg, Do you want to nerf it? Ok, then give something to those classes to compensate.

Healing should be tuned down a little. It is way too strong and there are a lot sources that increase healing done and healing received/taken. But more important than that, it is the use of defile. It was a good debuff, quite useful, BUT it was too easy to get over 50% through CP. The biggest offender wasnt' defile, the biggest offender was the befoul star on CP.

The solution was quite simple but instead of that, ZoS tried to reinvent the wheel (as they have done it once and again during the last 5 years) and now we have one of the most boring patches ever.

While healing + block/purge is a great combo to negate dmg, DoT + defile is not a good combo to counter that.

Iskiab · November 2019

When people say people are too tanky are they talking about small scale?

Ult dumps/assisting has been a pvp thing forever, it’s just how group combat works and I don’t think you can get around it.

If the issue is 1v1 someone is too tanky, are you also in a tanky spec? Maybe up your damage. If two people are in tanky specs so can’t kill each other well... working as intended.

jcm2606 · November 2019

Abyssmol wrote: »

How about heals would only apply to the caster in PVP... That would take care of the unkillable ball groups spamming heals and healing each other.

That would kill dedicated healing in PvP, so no. There just needs to be a bigger trade off between selfish and selfless healing. The problem right now is cross and off healing being too strong. Group healing options are too strong, even on builds that aren't at all focused on healing (a magicka DPS running Radiating Regen, for instance), which means a group can support themselves by just flooding off heals, without even needing a dedicated healer.

Group heals need to be reduced a bit, while self heals need to remain about as they are (exceptions being adjusted alone, of course). DPS should be able to keep themselves going through a fight, but they should not be able to do that while also keeping the rest of their group going through a fight, while still dealing the same amount of damage they usually do. That's really the problem, not healing itself, not block, not mitigation, but cross and off healing.

Luckylancer · November 2019

ZoS: buffs heals and dots
ZoS:nerfs dots only
OP: nerf heals as well
Forums: OMG! ThiS iS a NerF tReAd!

Buffed heals needs nerf.

technohic · November 2019

Lokey0024 wrote: »

How about healers heal, dps do damage. I heard a decent suggestion on making max stat scale healing and WD/SD scale abilities and both scale heavy/light attacks. Defensive abilities can scale WD/SP or Max stat and health.

I'm sick of fighting a group of 9 healers that just use AoE heals and run the entire fight until ult dumps. Their health barely moves unless you ball group too.

But this late in implementing might *** off a bunch of players, especially on the heels of so much change already.

Healers healing and DPS doing DPS would just benefit those groups more as they have dedicated healers and bombers. It would kill more rounded builds and we' all have to run a version of a ball group.

Let's face it. The balance changes to address ball groups has just made them switch from 10-12 to a full raid balled up. If there are super strong solid builds, well go find it and use it. if they keep swinging wildly at everything someone considers OP, the worse it gets.

This is why they shouldn't listen to us as much as they do; yet some of their bone head ideas like extreme DOT buffs and DOT nerfs are well outside anything anyone asked for.

iCaliban · November 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

Ok, first of all, nerfing block is not going to solve any issue since there are classes that live on blocking dmg, Do you want to nerf it? Ok, then give something to those classes to compensate.

Healing should be tuned down a little. It is way too strong and there are a lot sources that increase healing done and healing received/taken. But more important than that, it is the use of defile. It was a good debuff, quite useful, BUT it was too easy to get over 50% through CP. The biggest offender wasnt' defile, the biggest offender was the befoul star on CP.

The solution was quite simple but instead of that, ZoS tried to reinvent the wheel (as they have done it once and again during the last 5 years) and now we have one of the most boring patches ever.

While healing + block/purge is a great combo to negate dmg, DoT + defile is not a good combo to counter that.

No class "lives and dies" by s/b. S/b is a crutch abused by many players in pvp.

I am not calling for it to be gutted, simply have some of the overwhelming defensive power it provides reduced. When combined with HOTS, and block casted burst heals, a s/b user is all but unkillable even if they are in mulitple damage sets. Ive seen good players tank entire teams in BGs far longer than they should using it.

In terms of sheer performance, no weapon line gives as much raw value in pvp as s/b.

Iskiab · November 2019

I think S&B’s fine really. I don’t run any S&B builds but someone should be able to make themselves tanky, I think that’s where I disagree with other players.

When S&B had defile and a great stun yea it was out of line because it could be used offensively.

I don’t really get the tanky complaints. If someone wants to be tanky then why not let them? As long as they aren’t offensive powerhouses seems balanced.

DocFrost72 · November 2019

I want clarification before I continue.

You are concerned that the amount of healing is overtuned, so we should nerf resistances?

visionality · November 2019

Much easier solution: connect tankyness to movement speed. The tankier a character becomes, the slower he moves. ALWAYS. While walking, while running, while mistforming around a rock. Make it DECIDEDLY slower, not just 1%.
(I would be willing to overlook riding, though.)

As soon as tankyness has a real price, ppl will start thinking whether they prefer being hard to kill to being hard to catch and builds will start normalizing.

Kadoin · November 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

The answer is to LITERALLY nerf healing. The reason heals were buffed was because dots were also buffed. Now dots are WORSE than what it was before the buff. So the only logical answer is to nerf healing by at least %20-30.

Remember to say "HoTs" and not healing.

It won't matter anyway when HoTs will continue to be overtuned even after nerfs as long as you get more in than damage in, and thanks to a certain staff and DW combination that is possible on every build in the game and will continue to do so.

There's so many ways to either reduce, negate, or absorb damage and heal that a flat nerf will do nothing but nerf some specs, leave others untouched, make balance worse and then we'll see more crying in the forums when said specs all run to full damage builds.