A few KISS ways to make vampires better.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Right now vampires advantages are nothing compared to the disadvantages they face anyone who PvPs especially solo can see this.

Bats good as it is but the tooltip needs updating as base and devouring do not make you invisible

Drain: decent and the expedition morph benefits those with low mobility. Should not be "missing health" the percent is too low for a channel and leaves you wide open yet still gets nerfed in cyrodiil the only real use for this is the CC especially with Templars just changing it to max health in general will help

Mist form: change to a special toggle that drains magicka over time if you do anything besides walk the effect is broken. Allow sprinting with the elusive morph and allow faster tics for the poison morph. Also sometimes I swear it is less than 75% being mitigated.

Savage feeding: lets feeding deal damage

Supernatural recovery: get rid of the "must slot vamp skill" nerf as unlike WW weaknesses are always up and/or add 1 2 3/ 2 4 6 additional recovery at lower stages regardless of skills slotted to encourage feeding now stage 4 is the only stage I see.

undeath: does this even work? I am on PS4 so I can't see the numbers but it doesn't feel like it. seems nice on paper against PvE mobs but doesn't fit well with the meta in PvP

unnatural resistance: I see no change again, is this working? Whatever it is next to useless anyways in the current meta.

Dark stalker: good as is

General: Reverse stage timers.

what do you think? @GreenSoup2HoT

LBxFinalDeath · January 2016

Dat moment when you realize that when Vampires use Werewolves as a reason as to why they need a buff.....its clear they have never pvp'd solo or in a group as a werewolf...or actually use the form in actual pvp.

A Vampires bats will for the Werewolf feel like an instakill regardless of how good the werewolf is if the Vampire is at least decent due to the ability of stun locking said werewolf with gap closes and stuns in the clouding swarm while the bats do 30K.

Best thing a Werewolf can do against a good Vampire is run away...WW needs a buff so it doesn't play second fiddle to Vampire if its gonna be used as an excuse to buff Vampire.

I mean honestly mark target the werewolf then sit on it with bats/spam gap closes if it tries to run and its a guaranteed dead wolf.

Vampires are in an amazing place atm, I mean bats is essential for most zerg busting builds.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

LBxFinalDeath wrote: »

Dat moment when you realize that when Vampires use Werewolves as a reason as to why they need a buff.....its clear they have never pvp'd solo or in a group as a werewolf...or actually use the form in actual pvp.

A Vampires bats will for the Werewolf feel like an instakill regardless of how good the werewolf is if the Vampire is at least decent due to the ability of stun locking said werewolf with gap closes and stuns in the clouding swarm while the bats do 30K.

Best thing a Werewolf can do against a good Vampire is run away...WW needs a buff so it doesn't play second fiddle to Vampire if its gonna be used as an excuse to buff Vampire.

I mean honestly mark target the werewolf then sit on it with bats and its a guaranteed dead wolf.

I never used werewolves as an example other than to point out the weakness all the time even if you use zero passives or skills which werewolves do not have once they shift it is gone. I agree they need a buff too I just haven't thought of a good way to buff them yet stay true to the mechanics and not be OP. their abilities cost way too much if you ask me though that may be a start...

Gilvoth · January 2016

allow us to face our enemy, grab them, and force feed them on thier neck. causing both stunn and also serious damage.
if they allow us to continue and do not "break free" then thier life is completely drained out.

leepalmer95 · January 2016

Werewolf is so strong in 1v1 though, that instant 14k howl with insane dots dmg from la and defile .

I usually 3 hit people in ww.

GreenSoup2HoT · January 2016

Hey @RAGUNAnoOne glad you mentioned me in this post!

First of all i'd like to say i'm very passionate about this skill line. I was lucky enough to get a bite after the second day of console release from a pc transfer, i have yet to cure myself and never will.

Balance is something i think should be prioritized over everything else (expect game breaking bug's). Performance is always going to be tweaked and modified so i have decided to keep this one at the side line's for this discussion.

Vampire's are great. I do personally believe the disadvantage's out weight the advantage's. There's only a couple area's that i believe need change's to make this skill line much more desirable. Any change's i think are required as well as problem's i have while being a vampire will be listed below.

Vampire Feeding, Stage Bonuses and Timer's:

Vampire's have a "feeding" mechanic to reduce their "stage's" of Vampirism. You sneak up behind someone and get a prompt to drain a humanoid enemy's blood thus reducing your stage. You slowly overtime get hungry and gain increased disadvantage's while gaining specific advantage's as well.

I believe there are 3 problem's with this system.

1: There is no insensitive to be stage 1 (full) compared to stage 4 (starving).

As a vampire you get reduced cost on abilities the longer you go without "feeding". Which scale's from stage 2 down to 4. The only thing you get for being stage 1 ("satisfied"/"not hungry") is no health regeneration penalty.

I personally believe there need's to be better benefit's for stage 1. Some example's: Reduced damage from Fighter's guild skill's, Increased sneak detection or Increased Health Regeneration instead of the health regeneration penalty from other stage's returning to 0% once at stage 1.

2: Vampire Stage Timer's

If you want to stay stage 1, you need to feed every 30 minute's. Time fly's in Eso.... this need's to be addressed. Swap the stage timer's and everything will be fine.

Current Stage decay time's_____________________Fixed Stage decay times:
Stage 1 : 30 minute's____________________________Stage 1: 90 Minute's
Stage 2 : 60 minute's____________________________Stage 2: 60 Minute's
Stage 3 : 90 minute's____________________________Stage 3: 30 Minute's
Stage 4 : No time________________________________Stage 4: No time

All Zos need's to do is switch these stage timer's around. This will make feeding a lot less bothersome. You can now maintain stage 1 in a long dungeon run or vMA etc.

This change is needed however problem #1 need's to be addressed also so there is a reason to be stage 1.

Zos... do you ever look at the data with all player's that have Vampirism and say "Wow everyone's stage 4"? LIKE COMMON, throw us Vampire's a blood bag here, were all starving because there's no reason to eat!

3: No benefit to feeding in PvP.

Feeding in PvP at the moment is more of a insult instead of something worth trying. Your enemy can CC-break while your feeding (this should be the case, i've seen the video's before when you couldn't).... however i do think there need's to be a de-buff applied for feeding to be "worth".

Since you are giving up your "stealth damage modifier" using this mechanic, i suggest feeding applie the "minor mangle" de-buff. I just sucked blood from your body, you would think the player would loose maximum health or something somewhere right? There are a variety of de-buff's you could use, mine is only a suggestion.

This would make maintaining stage 1 a lot more enjoyable as well.

Zos if you change these 3 thing's i've listed, playing a Vampire would be SO SO much better.

Vampire Skill's

I will talk about each skill since there's not many (cough cough).

1: Bat Swarm.

A great Ultimate. One of two reason's why most player's are Vampire's (other being Dark Stalker).

Clouding Swarm: My only concern with this ability is you can maintain invisibility while in the radius of Radiant Mage Light. Since Radiant Mage Light uses's a pulse mechanic, you cannot see people in Clouding Swarm even though Radiant Mage Light state's it can see invisible player's.

Devouring Swarm: It's great. Nothing really to say. A good option.

2: Mist Form

THIS ABILITY NEED'S TO BE FIXED ASAP. This ability need's to be immune to all CC and control effect's. Your a mist! How can someone slow you or immobilize you. You do get magicka regen or healing while in use of this ability. I see no reason to not let mist form gain this ability.

Poison Mist (Fart Mist)- This ability stink's so much it's comical. This ability need's a huge damage boost or just scrap the mechanic entirely.

3: Drain Essence

I think this is a good ability however stamina user's deal no damage with it. It would be nice if stamina user's could utilize this ability if it scaled off your highest stat. (Not sure if it does scale or not but the damage is just pathetic to use in general). I'm all about making skill's viable, i would gladly accept this ability getting a damage buff to see more vampire's in Eso (Sorry Alcast

)

Vampire Passive's

-Savage Feeding : I think this is where Minor Mangle should be applied. Since this is one of the topic's i discussed already.

-Supernatural Recovery : I like the change making player's use vampire ability's. HOWEVER the ability's need to be fixed to reflect this change. If anything were to be changed, i'd change the value's when it's day or night (-5% during the day, 15% during the night).

I want player's to fear Vampire's at Night. I also want Vampire's to be vulnerable during the day. There really need's to be a day/night thing with Vampire's and Werewolf's. Let both gain more hp/hp regen at night.

-Blood Ritual : 7 day cooldown eh..... every time i feed reduce cool-down by 2 hour's? Now where getting somewhere.

-Undeath : I hear this passive work's? Doesn't work? Not really sure how i feel about this passive. It's kinda just there. It's not a lot of mitigation anyway's

-Unnatural Resistance : This passive i feel is a place holder. Not well thought out and just something to fill in the spot. Player's who are stage 4 don't care about health regeneration to begin with. You get 75% reduction to your health regeneration while stage 4, this passive only mitigated a tiny bit of this.

Recommended change: At stage one gain 25% increased health recovery. Remove the tiny increase of health regen during stage 2-4 that barely touches the huge de-buff anyway's.

-Dark Stalker : This is the second saving grace of vampire's. Sneak speed! Nothing wrong with this passive, it's the only reason why vampire's are vampire's it seem's (also the ultimate).

The one thing i would change is to either increase your player's ability to detect enemy's or decrease your own player's detection radius. ( I have also recommended this detection change work with vampire stage's. I would rather this change go with the vampirism stage's and leave dark stalker unchanged if i had to pick one or the other).

Vampire Counter's

Let's just look at what vampire's have to deal with. Now, honest opinion... do you think this is fair?

Permanent 25% vulnerability to fire which we need to mitigate. Not so bad.

Fighter's Guild Skill's/Passive's:

-Flawless Dawnbreaker: The staple to broken weapon damage build's. Glad to know this skill's passive scale's off all weapon damage instead of base weapon damage. GJ Zos!
-Dawnbreaker of Smiting: Deal's more damage and add's knockdown! YAY Zos..... Literally the most used Ultimate for an entire class... Sorcerer's!

Did i forget to mention?! Dawnbreaker deal's 60% more damage to Undead/Werewolf's and Daedra

This is not a QQ about this ability, i know it's the counter to vampire's. HOWEVER there is this passive also.

Slayer: Increases Weapon and Spell Damage by 9% when attacking Daedra and undead/werewolf's.

Now i know what your thinking, i'm a vampire i should be penalized for having this curse etc. Now here's my issue.

What is so great about Vampire's that warrant's the extra 60% damage with dawnbreaker. You already get 9% extra weapon damage just for putting skill point's into this passive... seriously...vampire's are not that scary.

Please do not say "Well you have Bat Swarm BOMB's!"....... did you know... you can ult bomb with more then just bat swarm and be just as effective?

All vampire's get is a good ultimate ( there are alternative's for ult bombing ) and sneak speed.

In my opinion, the fighter's guild line was balanced for pve. Why do i think this? I think this because of Camouflage Hunter. The only true pvp oriented morph was broken for year's! It make's sense these ability's are great for pve. However i think Dawnbreaker and only Dawnbreaker need's to be addressed. All the other ability's are great against vampire's (camouflage hunter included....if it was working properly that is and not insta-gibbing player's.).

All i ask, reduce the increased damage modifier against "Player's" to 25% instead of 60%.

Werewolf's have a passive that grant's them 18% weapon damage while transformed. I can easily see why dawnbreaker need's to be strong. Werewolf's seem in a great place against the current FG damage.

BUT!

Vampire's do not get any bonus like this. If the reduction to dawnbreaker cannot happen, be ready for a buff to Vampire's in some way or another. I talk to Wrobel through inbox, he has said he would much rather buff then nerf... so if you don't mind a Vampire buff to off set this DB damage by all mean's give them a buff (to note, the buff cannot improve bat swarm since that would be to much). The buff would have to be greater mitigation at low health to survive this damage, that's the only thing that i could think of to fix the problem i have with FG Dawnbreaker.

These are my opinion's after all, please take them all with a grain of salt.

Thank's for reading!!!

You asked what i thought and i delivered

Later!

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2016

LBxFinalDeath wrote: »

Dat moment when you realize that when Vampires use Werewolves as a reason as to why they need a buff.....its clear they have never pvp'd solo or in a group as a werewolf...or actually use the form in actual pvp.

A Vampires bats will for the Werewolf feel like an instakill regardless of how good the werewolf is if the Vampire is at least decent due to the ability of stun locking said werewolf with gap closes and stuns in the clouding swarm while the bats do 30K.

Best thing a Werewolf can do against a good Vampire is run away...WW needs a buff so it doesn't play second fiddle to Vampire if its gonna be used as an excuse to buff Vampire.

I mean honestly mark target the werewolf then sit on it with bats/spam gap closes if it tries to run and its a guaranteed dead wolf.

Vampires are in an amazing place atm, I mean bats is essential for most zerg busting builds.

Ummm Both my Stamina DPS Templar and Stamina DPS Dragon Knight are wolves and that howl is just sick plus WW resistance buffs give me tank defense with glass canon DPS heals can use some major love... but one build shouldn't have it all.

So wolves are in a great place if you actually shifted.

GreenSoup2HoT · January 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Werewolf is so strong in 1v1 though, that instant 14k howl with insane dots dmg from la and defile .

I usually 3 hit people in ww.

Exactly what i tried to point out in my previous comment. Werewolf is very strong, however most people only use it in certain scenario's. Most of these scenario's being small scale combat where your not a bullseye for archer's and dawnbreaker's.

Werewolf's get 18% extra weapon damage. Insane.

As a vampire, we don't really get any huge benefit like that. We get moderate benefit's with permanent drawback's. I believe the Vampire skill line in general need's a lot of work. We have broken ability's and possibly broken passive's (undeath/Dark Stalker: sometimes turn's off).

All i'd like to see is some of the change's i've proposed in my previous comment but also a buff to deal with this FG damage. Since vampire's are always branded as easy kill's for people with these ability's, i feel it's a little unfair compared to what we have in our pocket's.

This discussion can be very biased and usually lead's to just QQ about bat-swarm. I look at Vampirism as a whole though. Werewolf is a perfect example of balanced game-play. At least you can choose when you are vulnerable to Fighter's Guild skill's/passive's.

Vampire's just need some minor tweak's and mechanic change's to really make the skill line much more enjoyable to play.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Werewolf is so strong in 1v1 though, that instant 14k howl with insane dots dmg from la and defile .

I usually 3 hit people in ww.

Exactly what i tried to point out in my previous comment. Werewolf is very strong, however most people only use it in certain scenario's. Most of these scenario's being small scale combat where your not a bullseye for archer's and dawnbreaker's.

Werewolf's get 18% extra weapon damage. Insane.

As a vampire, we don't really get any huge benefit like that. We get moderate benefit's with permanent drawback's. I believe the Vampire skill line in general need's a lot of work. We have broken ability's and possibly broken passive's (undeath/Dark Stalker: sometimes turn's off).

All i'd like to see is some of the change's i've proposed in my previous comment but also a buff to deal with this FG damage. Since vampire's are always branded as easy kill's for people with these ability's, i feel it's a little unfair compared to what we have in our pocket's.

This discussion can be very biased and usually lead's to just QQ about bat-swarm. I look at Vampirism as a whole though. Werewolf is a perfect example of balanced game-play. At least you can choose when you are vulnerable to Fighter's Guild skill's/passive's.

Vampire's just need some minor tweak's and mechanic change's to really make the skill line much more enjoyable to play.

You're almost completely right but remember you have to take the FG passive to affect WW and not everyone gets it so even when you hit with FG powers you have great chances of them not having that passive.

Chrlynsch · January 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Hey @RAGUNAnoOne glad you mentioned me in this post!

First of all i'd like to say i'm very passionate about this skill line. I was lucky enough to get a bite after the second day of console release from a pc transfer, i have yet to cure myself and never will.

Balance is something i think should be prioritized over everything else (expect game breaking bug's). Performance is always going to be tweaked and modified so i have decided to keep this one at the side line's for this discussion.

Vampire's are great. I do personally believe the disadvantage's out weight the advantage's. There's only a couple area's that i believe need change's to make this skill line much more desirable. Any change's i think are required as well as problem's i have while being a vampire will be listed below.

Vampire Feeding, Stage Bonuses and Timer's:

Vampire's have a "feeding" mechanic to reduce their "stage's" of Vampirism. You sneak up behind someone and get a prompt to drain a humanoid enemy's blood thus reducing your stage. You slowly overtime get hungry and gain increased disadvantage's while gaining specific advantage's as well.

I believe there are 3 problem's with this system.

1: There is no insensitive to be stage 1 (full) compared to stage 4 (starving).

As a vampire you get reduced cost on abilities the longer you go without "feeding". Which scale's from stage 2 down to 4. The only thing you get for being stage 1 ("satisfied"/"not hungry") is no health regeneration penalty.

I personally believe there need's to be better benefit's for stage 1. Some example's: Reduced damage from Fighter's guild skill's, Increased sneak detection or Increased Health Regeneration instead of the health regeneration penalty from other stage's returning to 0% once at stage 1.

2: Vampire Stage Timer's

If you want to stay stage 1, you need to feed every 30 minute's. Time fly's in Eso.... this need's to be addressed. Swap the stage timer's and everything will be fine.

Current Stage decay time's_____________________Fixed Stage decay times:
Stage 1 : 30 minute's____________________________Stage 1: 90 Minute's
Stage 2 : 60 minute's____________________________Stage 2: 60 Minute's
Stage 3 : 90 minute's____________________________Stage 3: 30 Minute's
Stage 4 : No time________________________________Stage 4: No time

All Zos need's to do is switch these stage timer's around. This will make feeding a lot less bothersome. You can now maintain stage 1 in a long dungeon run or vMA etc.

This change is needed however problem #1 need's to be addressed also so there is a reason to be stage 1.

Zos... do you ever look at the data with all player's that have Vampirism and say "Wow everyone's stage 4"? LIKE COMMON, throw us Vampire's a blood bag here, were all starving because there's no reason to eat!

3: No benefit to feeding in PvP.

Feeding in PvP at the moment is more of a insult instead of something worth trying. Your enemy can CC-break while your feeding (this should be the case, i've seen the video's before when you couldn't).... however i do think there need's to be a de-buff applied for feeding to be "worth".

Since you are giving up your "stealth damage modifier" using this mechanic, i suggest feeding applie the "minor mangle" de-buff. I just sucked blood from your body, you would think the player would loose maximum health or something somewhere right? There are a variety of de-buff's you could use, mine is only a suggestion.

This would make maintaining stage 1 a lot more enjoyable as well.

Zos if you change these 3 thing's i've listed, playing a Vampire would be SO SO much better.

Vampire Skill's

I will talk about each skill since there's not many (cough cough).

1: Bat Swarm.

A great Ultimate. One of two reason's why most player's are Vampire's (other being Dark Stalker).

Clouding Swarm: My only concern with this ability is you can maintain invisibility while in the radius of Radiant Mage Light. Since Radiant Mage Light uses's a pulse mechanic, you cannot see people in Clouding Swarm even though Radiant Mage Light state's it can see invisible player's.

Devouring Swarm: It's great. Nothing really to say. A good option.

2: Mist Form

THIS ABILITY NEED'S TO BE FIXED ASAP. This ability need's to be immune to all CC and control effect's. Your a mist! How can someone slow you or immobilize you. You do get magicka regen or healing while in use of this ability. I see no reason to not let mist form gain this ability.

Poison Mist (Fart Mist)- This ability stink's so much it's comical. This ability need's a huge damage boost or just scrap the mechanic entirely.

3: Drain Essence

I think this is a good ability however stamina user's deal no damage with it. It would be nice if stamina user's could utilize this ability if it scaled off your highest stat. (Not sure if it does scale or not but the damage is just pathetic to use in general). I'm all about making skill's viable, i would gladly accept this ability getting a damage buff to see more vampire's in Eso (Sorry Alcast )

Vampire Passive's

-Savage Feeding : I think this is where Minor Mangle should be applied. Since this is one of the topic's i discussed already.

-Supernatural Recovery : I like the change making player's use vampire ability's. HOWEVER the ability's need to be fixed to reflect this change. If anything were to be changed, i'd change the value's when it's day or night (-5% during the day, 15% during the night).

I want player's to fear Vampire's at Night. I also want Vampire's to be vulnerable during the day. There really need's to be a day/night thing with Vampire's and Werewolf's. Let both gain more hp/hp regen at night.

-Blood Ritual : 7 day cooldown eh..... every time i feed reduce cool-down by 2 hour's? Now where getting somewhere.

-Undeath : I hear this passive work's? Doesn't work? Not really sure how i feel about this passive. It's kinda just there. It's not a lot of mitigation anyway's

-Unnatural Resistance : This passive i feel is a place holder. Not well thought out and just something to fill in the spot. Player's who are stage 4 don't care about health regeneration to begin with. You get 75% reduction to your health regeneration while stage 4, this passive only mitigated a tiny bit of this.

Recommended change: At stage one gain 25% increased health recovery. Remove the tiny increase of health regen during stage 2-4 that barely touches the huge de-buff anyway's.

-Dark Stalker : This is the second saving grace of vampire's. Sneak speed! Nothing wrong with this passive, it's the only reason why vampire's are vampire's it seem's (also the ultimate).

The one thing i would change is to either increase your player's ability to detect enemy's or decrease your own player's detection radius. ( I have also recommended this detection change work with vampire stage's. I would rather this change go with the vampirism stage's and leave dark stalker unchanged if i had to pick one or the other).

Vampire Counter's

Let's just look at what vampire's have to deal with. Now, honest opinion... do you think this is fair?

Permanent 25% vulnerability to fire which we need to mitigate. Not so bad.

Fighter's Guild Skill's/Passive's:

-Flawless Dawnbreaker: The staple to broken weapon damage build's. Glad to know this skill's passive scale's off all weapon damage instead of base weapon damage. GJ Zos!
-Dawnbreaker of Smiting: Deal's more damage and add's knockdown! YAY Zos..... Literally the most used Ultimate for an entire class... Sorcerer's!

Did i forget to mention?! Dawnbreaker deal's 60% more damage to Undead/Werewolf's and Daedra

This is not a QQ about this ability, i know it's the counter to vampire's. HOWEVER there is this passive also.

Slayer: Increases Weapon and Spell Damage by 9% when attacking Daedra and undead/werewolf's.

Now i know what your thinking, i'm a vampire i should be penalized for having this curse etc. Now here's my issue.

What is so great about Vampire's that warrant's the extra 60% damage with dawnbreaker. You already get 9% extra weapon damage just for putting skill point's into this passive... seriously...vampire's are not that scary.

Please do not say "Well you have Bat Swarm BOMB's!"....... did you know... you can ult bomb with more then just bat swarm and be just as effective?

All vampire's get is a good ultimate ( there are alternative's for ult bombing ) and sneak speed.

In my opinion, the fighter's guild line was balanced for pve. Why do i think this? I think this because of Camouflage Hunter. The only true pvp oriented morph was broken for year's! It make's sense these ability's are great for pve. However i think Dawnbreaker and only Dawnbreaker need's to be addressed. All the other ability's are great against vampire's (camouflage hunter included....if it was working properly that is and not insta-gibbing player's.).

All i ask, reduce the increased damage modifier against "Player's" to 25% instead of 60%.

Werewolf's have a passive that grant's them 18% weapon damage while transformed. I can easily see why dawnbreaker need's to be strong. Werewolf's seem in a great place against the current FG damage.

BUT!

Vampire's do not get any bonus like this. If the reduction to dawnbreaker cannot happen, be ready for a buff to Vampire's in some way or another. I talk to Wrobel through inbox, he has said he would much rather buff then nerf... so if you don't mind a Vampire buff to off set this DB damage by all mean's give them a buff (to note, the buff cannot improve bat swarm since that would be to much). The buff would have to be greater mitigation at low health to survive this damage, that's the only thing that i could think of to fix the problem i have with FG Dawnbreaker.

These are my opinion's after all, please take them all with a grain of salt.

Thank's for reading!!!

You asked what i thought and i delivered

Later!

Werewolves may gain weapon damage, but they are also stripped of weapon passives and most class/guild passives, inability to stealth, resurrect allies, inability to purge negative effects, ridiculous expensive abilities.

GreenSoup2HoT · January 2016

@kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

That's kind of hit or miss. Your lucky there's people out there who don't take that passive.

@Prothwata

Yeah i see what you mean. I wouldn't know much about werewolf's since i've only played vampire. Even though they do have similar drawback's, it's not really the same.

Your stripped of your weapon's but werewolf's still have a great kit to work with. Your werewolf passive's more then make up for any passive's your loosing while transforming. You can also buff your werewolf form before you transform. Molag Kena 2 piece and Shield Breaker compliment werewolf very well also.

All of the thing's you said are not really that big of deal. When you go werewolf form, you don't stealth, you don't revive, you don't purge, you kill. You go berserk and become a power house. To me your job is to kill once you activate your ultimate. Other people can technically do the thing's you can't in the mean time for the duration of your ultimate.

I do not wan't to turn this into a Werewolf VS Vampire comparison thread.

Both skill-lines's are effected by fighter's guild but they are effected differently. Both have up's and down's but i'd like to focus on Vampire. Since they are in more need of balance then Werewolf's.

If i'm not mistaken, Steel Tornado is going to get tweaked soon. This will be a huge blow to the one combo vampire's have. Not that i disagree, it's cheesy.

If it take's a nerf to bat swarm to get this skill-line fixed up i'd gladly take it. People assume when people request balance it's a buff and vampire's will become to strong etc. It's more about giving vampire's more option's to just that one ability.

Volkodav · January 2016

What's "KISS ways"??

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2016

@GreenSoup2HoT Most don't think they will fight a WW so they don't get it but as a player of both Vampires and Werewolves Wolf is better yea I lose Cloak, Dragon leap, Streak and Jabs but I gain a powerful HoT DoT and a 15k instant cast burst damage knock down with like 15k more armor and spell resistance and armor bonuses are still running WW is only missing a good heal and honestly it can't have it all.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

What's "KISS ways"??

Keep It Simple Stupid
basically changes that aren't drastic but still have a noticeable effect

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Hey @RAGUNAnoOne glad you mentioned me in this post!

First of all i'd like to say i'm very passionate about this skill line. I was lucky enough to get a bite after the second day of console release from a pc transfer, i have yet to cure myself and never will.

Balance is something i think should be prioritized over everything else (expect game breaking bug's). Performance is always going to be tweaked and modified so i have decided to keep this one at the side line's for this discussion.

Vampire's are great. I do personally believe the disadvantage's out weight the advantage's. There's only a couple area's that i believe need change's to make this skill line much more desirable. Any change's i think are required as well as problem's i have while being a vampire will be listed below.

Vampire Feeding, Stage Bonuses and Timer's:

Vampire's have a "feeding" mechanic to reduce their "stage's" of Vampirism. You sneak up behind someone and get a prompt to drain a humanoid enemy's blood thus reducing your stage. You slowly overtime get hungry and gain increased disadvantage's while gaining specific advantage's as well.

I believe there are 3 problem's with this system.

1: There is no insensitive to be stage 1 (full) compared to stage 4 (starving).

As a vampire you get reduced cost on abilities the longer you go without "feeding". Which scale's from stage 2 down to 4. The only thing you get for being stage 1 ("satisfied"/"not hungry") is no health regeneration penalty.

I personally believe there need's to be better benefit's for stage 1. Some example's: Reduced damage from Fighter's guild skill's, Increased sneak detection or Increased Health Regeneration instead of the health regeneration penalty from other stage's returning to 0% once at stage 1.

2: Vampire Stage Timer's

If you want to stay stage 1, you need to feed every 30 minute's. Time fly's in Eso.... this need's to be addressed. Swap the stage timer's and everything will be fine.

Current Stage decay time's_____________________Fixed Stage decay times:
Stage 1 : 30 minute's____________________________Stage 1: 90 Minute's
Stage 2 : 60 minute's____________________________Stage 2: 60 Minute's
Stage 3 : 90 minute's____________________________Stage 3: 30 Minute's
Stage 4 : No time________________________________Stage 4: No time

All Zos need's to do is switch these stage timer's around. This will make feeding a lot less bothersome. You can now maintain stage 1 in a long dungeon run or vMA etc.

This change is needed however problem #1 need's to be addressed also so there is a reason to be stage 1.

Zos... do you ever look at the data with all player's that have Vampirism and say "Wow everyone's stage 4"? LIKE COMMON, throw us Vampire's a blood bag here, were all starving because there's no reason to eat!

3: No benefit to feeding in PvP.

Feeding in PvP at the moment is more of a insult instead of something worth trying. Your enemy can CC-break while your feeding (this should be the case, i've seen the video's before when you couldn't).... however i do think there need's to be a de-buff applied for feeding to be "worth".

Since you are giving up your "stealth damage modifier" using this mechanic, i suggest feeding applie the "minor mangle" de-buff. I just sucked blood from your body, you would think the player would loose maximum health or something somewhere right? There are a variety of de-buff's you could use, mine is only a suggestion.

This would make maintaining stage 1 a lot more enjoyable as well.

Zos if you change these 3 thing's i've listed, playing a Vampire would be SO SO much better.

Vampire Skill's

I will talk about each skill since there's not many (cough cough).

1: Bat Swarm.

A great Ultimate. One of two reason's why most player's are Vampire's (other being Dark Stalker).

Clouding Swarm: My only concern with this ability is you can maintain invisibility while in the radius of Radiant Mage Light. Since Radiant Mage Light uses's a pulse mechanic, you cannot see people in Clouding Swarm even though Radiant Mage Light state's it can see invisible player's.

Devouring Swarm: It's great. Nothing really to say. A good option.

2: Mist Form

THIS ABILITY NEED'S TO BE FIXED ASAP. This ability need's to be immune to all CC and control effect's. Your a mist! How can someone slow you or immobilize you. You do get magicka regen or healing while in use of this ability. I see no reason to not let mist form gain this ability.

Poison Mist (Fart Mist)- This ability stink's so much it's comical. This ability need's a huge damage boost or just scrap the mechanic entirely.

3: Drain Essence

I think this is a good ability however stamina user's deal no damage with it. It would be nice if stamina user's could utilize this ability if it scaled off your highest stat. (Not sure if it does scale or not but the damage is just pathetic to use in general). I'm all about making skill's viable, i would gladly accept this ability getting a damage buff to see more vampire's in Eso (Sorry Alcast )

Vampire Passive's

-Savage Feeding : I think this is where Minor Mangle should be applied. Since this is one of the topic's i discussed already.

-Supernatural Recovery : I like the change making player's use vampire ability's. HOWEVER the ability's need to be fixed to reflect this change. If anything were to be changed, i'd change the value's when it's day or night (-5% during the day, 15% during the night).

I want player's to fear Vampire's at Night. I also want Vampire's to be vulnerable during the day. There really need's to be a day/night thing with Vampire's and Werewolf's. Let both gain more hp/hp regen at night.

-Blood Ritual : 7 day cooldown eh..... every time i feed reduce cool-down by 2 hour's? Now where getting somewhere.

-Undeath : I hear this passive work's? Doesn't work? Not really sure how i feel about this passive. It's kinda just there. It's not a lot of mitigation anyway's

-Unnatural Resistance : This passive i feel is a place holder. Not well thought out and just something to fill in the spot. Player's who are stage 4 don't care about health regeneration to begin with. You get 75% reduction to your health regeneration while stage 4, this passive only mitigated a tiny bit of this.

Recommended change: At stage one gain 25% increased health recovery. Remove the tiny increase of health regen during stage 2-4 that barely touches the huge de-buff anyway's.

-Dark Stalker : This is the second saving grace of vampire's. Sneak speed! Nothing wrong with this passive, it's the only reason why vampire's are vampire's it seem's (also the ultimate).

The one thing i would change is to either increase your player's ability to detect enemy's or decrease your own player's detection radius. ( I have also recommended this detection change work with vampire stage's. I would rather this change go with the vampirism stage's and leave dark stalker unchanged if i had to pick one or the other).

Vampire Counter's

Let's just look at what vampire's have to deal with. Now, honest opinion... do you think this is fair?

Permanent 25% vulnerability to fire which we need to mitigate. Not so bad.

Fighter's Guild Skill's/Passive's:

-Flawless Dawnbreaker: The staple to broken weapon damage build's. Glad to know this skill's passive scale's off all weapon damage instead of base weapon damage. GJ Zos!
-Dawnbreaker of Smiting: Deal's more damage and add's knockdown! YAY Zos..... Literally the most used Ultimate for an entire class... Sorcerer's!

Did i forget to mention?! Dawnbreaker deal's 60% more damage to Undead/Werewolf's and Daedra

This is not a QQ about this ability, i know it's the counter to vampire's. HOWEVER there is this passive also.

Slayer: Increases Weapon and Spell Damage by 9% when attacking Daedra and undead/werewolf's.

Now i know what your thinking, i'm a vampire i should be penalized for having this curse etc. Now here's my issue.

What is so great about Vampire's that warrant's the extra 60% damage with dawnbreaker. You already get 9% extra weapon damage just for putting skill point's into this passive... seriously...vampire's are not that scary.

Please do not say "Well you have Bat Swarm BOMB's!"....... did you know... you can ult bomb with more then just bat swarm and be just as effective?

All vampire's get is a good ultimate ( there are alternative's for ult bombing ) and sneak speed.

In my opinion, the fighter's guild line was balanced for pve. Why do i think this? I think this because of Camouflage Hunter. The only true pvp oriented morph was broken for year's! It make's sense these ability's are great for pve. However i think Dawnbreaker and only Dawnbreaker need's to be addressed. All the other ability's are great against vampire's (camouflage hunter included....if it was working properly that is and not insta-gibbing player's.).

All i ask, reduce the increased damage modifier against "Player's" to 25% instead of 60%.

Werewolf's have a passive that grant's them 18% weapon damage while transformed. I can easily see why dawnbreaker need's to be strong. Werewolf's seem in a great place against the current FG damage.

BUT!

Vampire's do not get any bonus like this. If the reduction to dawnbreaker cannot happen, be ready for a buff to Vampire's in some way or another. I talk to Wrobel through inbox, he has said he would much rather buff then nerf... so if you don't mind a Vampire buff to off set this DB damage by all mean's give them a buff (to note, the buff cannot improve bat swarm since that would be to much). The buff would have to be greater mitigation at low health to survive this damage, that's the only thing that i could think of to fix the problem i have with FG Dawnbreaker.

These are my opinion's after all, please take them all with a grain of salt.

Thank's for reading!!!

You asked what i thought and i delivered

Later!

these are pretty much similar ideas and they are good and EXTREMELY well thought out but but my two cents on a few. I don't agree with the maim for feeding as any destruction staff user can inflict it on a group and at the same time not leave themselves open for 4 seconds plus I think it can be purged. the penalty should be more severe especially if they feed on you longer. Increased health regeneration is nothing as you can get healed so that incentive for being fed is not much of an incentive. The FG reduction is good but I am not even sure it is possible to program that as it applies a base additional effect if the undead Daedra or WW keyword is there or not. in order to do this they would have to add a lot more keywords and scripting and even if they do succeed we may end up with broken skills. Not sure about the day penalty it is fine for single player games but this is a MMO plus as of now the game can't detect indoors VS outdoors or oblivion realms (no sun) for these immersion effects and may limit those who can only play for so long at certain times... Blood ritual idea never going to happen in fact when they announced crown bites I feared they were going to remove this option completely....

Hamfast · January 2016

First, I like my Vamp NB, he used to be able to sneak faster then he could run... but that was nerfed... even if vampires should be able to sneak faster and quieter.

I sort of disagree with one point made that has to do with feeding:

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Current Stage decay time's_____________________Fixed Stage decay times:
Stage 1 : 30 minute's____________________________Stage 1: 90 Minute's
Stage 2 : 60 minute's____________________________Stage 2: 60 Minute's
Stage 3 : 90 minute's____________________________Stage 3: 30 Minute's
Stage 4 : No time________________________________Stage 4: No time

I am not sure if I agree on reversing the stages, I think I do, but I think the time should be doubled or tripled.

The only other thing I would add is purely cosmetic, I think at stage 1 our appearance should be as close to our original appearance as possible to stage 4 where we look horrendous...

Otherwise I agree...

DRXHarbinger · January 2016

Are WW stripped of passives? I have dual daggers on my WW build and I get the crit bonus for it. Do you get the enchants too? I run weapon damage boost and disease damage on the other. Seems to cut down DKs without fail.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Are WW stripped of passives? I have dual daggers on my WW build and I get the crit bonus for it. Do you get the enchants too? I run weapon damage boost and disease damage on the other. Seems to cut down DKs without fail.

They don't loose passives I think as you said enchantments do work you can't have enchantments without weapons.

Chrlynsch · January 2016

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Are WW stripped of passives? I have dual daggers on my WW build and I get the crit bonus for it. Do you get the enchants too? I run weapon damage boost and disease damage on the other. Seems to cut down DKs without fail.

They don't loose passives I think as you said enchantments do work you can't have enchantments without weapons.

Werewolves loose weapon passives

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2016

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Are WW stripped of passives? I have dual daggers on my WW build and I get the crit bonus for it. Do you get the enchants too? I run weapon damage boost and disease damage on the other. Seems to cut down DKs without fail.

They don't loose passives I think as you said enchantments do work you can't have enchantments without weapons.

We loose passives bet the trade off is worth it.

RAGUNAnoOne · January 2016

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Are WW stripped of passives? I have dual daggers on my WW build and I get the crit bonus for it. Do you get the enchants too? I run weapon damage boost and disease damage on the other. Seems to cut down DKs without fail.

They don't loose passives I think as you said enchantments do work you can't have enchantments without weapons.

We loose passives bet the trade off is worth it.

Now I know.

MrGigglypants · January 2016

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

LBxFinalDeath wrote: »

Dat moment when you realize that when Vampires use Werewolves as a reason as to why they need a buff.....its clear they have never pvp'd solo or in a group as a werewolf...or actually use the form in actual pvp.

A Vampires bats will for the Werewolf feel like an instakill regardless of how good the werewolf is if the Vampire is at least decent due to the ability of stun locking said werewolf with gap closes and stuns in the clouding swarm while the bats do 30K.

Best thing a Werewolf can do against a good Vampire is run away...WW needs a buff so it doesn't play second fiddle to Vampire if its gonna be used as an excuse to buff Vampire.

I mean honestly mark target the werewolf then sit on it with bats and its a guaranteed dead wolf.

I never used werewolves as an example other than to point out the weakness all the time even if you use zero passives or skills which werewolves do not have once they shift it is gone. I agree they need a buff too I just haven't thought of a good way to buff them yet stay true to the mechanics and not be OP. their abilities cost way too much if you ask me though that may be a start...

Werewolves are weak to poison at all times

Chrlynsch · January 2016

MrGigglypants wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

LBxFinalDeath wrote: »

Dat moment when you realize that when Vampires use Werewolves as a reason as to why they need a buff.....its clear they have never pvp'd solo or in a group as a werewolf...or actually use the form in actual pvp.

A Vampires bats will for the Werewolf feel like an instakill regardless of how good the werewolf is if the Vampire is at least decent due to the ability of stun locking said werewolf with gap closes and stuns in the clouding swarm while the bats do 30K.

Best thing a Werewolf can do against a good Vampire is run away...WW needs a buff so it doesn't play second fiddle to Vampire if its gonna be used as an excuse to buff Vampire.

I mean honestly mark target the werewolf then sit on it with bats and its a guaranteed dead wolf.

I never used werewolves as an example other than to point out the weakness all the time even if you use zero passives or skills which werewolves do not have once they shift it is gone. I agree they need a buff too I just haven't thought of a good way to buff them yet stay true to the mechanics and not be OP. their abilities cost way too much if you ask me though that may be a start...

Werewolves are weak to poison at all times

Werewolves are only weak to poison in werewolf form.

silky_soft · January 2016

Console vamps cry a lot. Just give them 100% mitigation at 100% and be done with it.

MornaBaine · January 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Vampire Feeding, Stage Bonuses and Timer's:

Vampire's have a "feeding" mechanic to reduce their "stage's" of Vampirism. You sneak up behind someone and get a prompt to drain a humanoid enemy's blood thus reducing your stage. You slowly overtime get hungry and gain increased disadvantage's while gaining specific advantage's as well.

I believe there are 3 problem's with this system.

1: There is no insensitive to be stage 1 (full) compared to stage 4 (starving).

As a vampire you get reduced cost on abilities the longer you go without "feeding". Which scale's from stage 2 down to 4. The only thing you get for being stage 1 ("satisfied"/"not hungry") is no health regeneration penalty.

I personally believe there need's to be better benefit's for stage 1. Some example's: Reduced damage from Fighter's guild skill's, Increased sneak detection or Increased Health Regeneration instead of the health regeneration penalty from other stage's returning to 0% once at stage 1.

2: Vampire Stage Timer's

If you want to stay stage 1, you need to feed every 30 minute's. Time fly's in Eso.... this need's to be addressed. Swap the stage timer's and everything will be fine.

Current Stage decay time's_____________________Fixed Stage decay times:
Stage 1 : 30 minute's____________________________Stage 1: 90 Minute's
Stage 2 : 60 minute's____________________________Stage 2: 60 Minute's
Stage 3 : 90 minute's____________________________Stage 3: 30 Minute's
Stage 4 : No time________________________________Stage 4: No time

All Zos need's to do is switch these stage timer's around. This will make feeding a lot less bothersome. You can now maintain stage 1 in a long dungeon run or vMA etc.

This change is needed however problem #1 need's to be addressed also so there is a reason to be stage 1.

Zos... do you ever look at the data with all player's that have Vampirism and say "Wow everyone's stage 4"? LIKE COMMON, throw us Vampire's a blood bag here, were all starving because there's no reason to eat!

3: No benefit to feeding in PvP.

Feeding in PvP at the moment is more of a insult instead of something worth trying. Your enemy can CC-break while your feeding (this should be the case, i've seen the video's before when you couldn't).... however i do think there need's to be a de-buff applied for feeding to be "worth".

Since you are giving up your "stealth damage modifier" using this mechanic, i suggest feeding applie the "minor mangle" de-buff. I just sucked blood from your body, you would think the player would loose maximum health or something somewhere right? There are a variety of de-buff's you could use, mine is only a suggestion.

This would make maintaining stage 1 a lot more enjoyable as well.

Zos if you change these 3 thing's i've listed, playing a Vampire would be SO SO much better.

THIS RIGHT HERE!!!!! I have literally been BEGGING for this for over a year and hardly anyone ever says anything. SO GLAD to see someone else who "gets it!" Now if ZOS would just finally "get it!!!!!"

Anhedonie · January 2016

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Right now vampires advantages are nothing compared to the disadvantages they face anyone who PvPs especially solo can see this.

Bats good as it is but the tooltip needs updating as base and devouring do not make you invisible

Drain: decent and the expedition morph benefits those with low mobility. Should not be "missing health" the percent is too low for a channel and leaves you wide open yet still gets nerfed in cyrodiil the only real use for this is the CC especially with Templars just changing it to max health in general will help

Mist form: change to a special toggle that drains magicka over time if you do anything besides walk the effect is broken. Allow sprinting with the elusive morph and allow faster tics for the poison morph. Also sometimes I swear it is less than 75% being mitigated.

Savage feeding: lets feeding deal damage

Supernatural recovery: get rid of the "must slot vamp skill" nerf as unlike WW weaknesses are always up and/or add 1 2 3/ 2 4 6 additional recovery at lower stages regardless of skills slotted to encourage feeding now stage 4 is the only stage I see.

undeath: does this even work? I am on PS4 so I can't see the numbers but it doesn't feel like it. seems nice on paper against PvE mobs but doesn't fit well with the meta in PvP

unnatural resistance: I see no change again, is this working? Whatever it is next to useless anyways in the current meta.

Dark stalker: good as is

General: Reverse stage timers.

what do you think? @GreenSoup2HoT

Unnatural resistance works, undeath doesn't.