Players Need More Control Over Justice System Choices

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

So just in the past couple hours, the justice system that I've wanted nothing to do with is making a mess out of my game. First, I thought I'd help heal someone who was fighting the werewolf (for the quest) in Daggerfall, not realizing that the reason they were failing was because there was a Daggerfall guard in the mix. Luckily, I died and didn't take the rep hit because of that. Ok, so now I guess I won't help any of my 'allies' which is a pity because some folks who choose to be healers really like helping others when they can, especially newbies. Heck, for all I know, she probably accidentally hit the guard while trying to attack the werewolf.

Shortly afterward, I was trying to click on an npc merchant to check their wares, but accidentally right clicked an item on the cart behind them and stole it... no dialog box confirming or anything and now there's a bounty on my head. Sooo sooo sooo not cool at all for that to happen so easily. I also almost accidentally stole while trying to talk to the banker moments before, but since it was a chest, I was able to cancel. Seriously? Honest players shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and get tagged as a thief when they ARE NOT. The justice system is failing when it works against folks like this, unless you want to say that Tamriel's system is quite crooked and fond of incriminating/framing innocent citizens.

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

Edit: Title for clarification -- also, I want to point out that I'm not looking to remove the justice system at all, but I do want it to be implemented in a way that honors the choices players make!

Ashigaru · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

So just in the past couple hours, the justice system that I've wanted nothing to do with is making a mess out of my game. First, I thought I'd help heal someone who was fighting the werewolf (for the quest) in Daggerfall, not realizing that the reason they were failing was because there was a Daggerfall guard in the mix. Luckily, I died and didn't take the rep hit because of that. Ok, so now I guess I won't help any of my 'allies' which is a pity because some folks who choose to be healers really like helping others when they can, especially newbies. Heck, for all I know, she probably accidentally hit the guard while trying to attack the werewolf.

Shortly afterward, I was trying to click on an npc merchant to check their wares, but accidentally right clicked an item on the cart behind them and stole it... no dialog box confirming or anything and now there's a bounty on my head. Sooo sooo sooo not cool at all for that to happen so easily. I also almost accidentally stole while trying to talk to the banker moments before, but since it was a chest, I was able to cancel. Seriously? Honest players shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and get tagged as a thief when they ARE NOT. The justice system is failing when it works against folks like this, unless you want to say that Tamriel's system is quite crooked and fond of incriminating/framing innocent citizens.

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

You can opt out, there is a option to not attack npc's or such in options and the same for stealing, you can turn the auto loot off for stolen items.

kherzaheb17_ESO · March 2015

lol

starkerealm · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server.

Believe me, we complained about this, and got shouted down by people posting Jim Carey shots from Liar Liar.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Solution 1: Be more careful.

Solution 2: Don't be more careful, and cough up the paltry sum of gold for your bounty.

The Justice System is absolutely necessary in an Elder Scrolls game. I hate that they even have an opt out option for attacking innocents, because "opting out" should be done by not attacking innocents.

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

Ashigaru wrote: »

You can opt out, there is a option to not attack npc's or such in options and the same for stealing, you can turn the auto loot off for stolen items.

Good to know! Thanks! I did not see this in options but I'll check again later when servers are back up.

Govalon · March 2015

Welcome to Elder Scrolls. This is exactly how it is supposed to work if the intention is to make thieving-system like in single player games.

starkerealm · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

Ashigaru wrote: »

You can opt out, there is a option to not attack npc's or such in options and the same for stealing, you can turn the auto loot off for stolen items.

Good to know! Thanks! I did not see this in options but I'll check again later when servers are back up.

Yeah... that doesn't work the way you'd hope. The "no auto loot" option only governs owned containers. It does not affect things that are out on display. Also, the civilian safety only protects you from accidentally harming innocents. It does not protect you against getting a bounty for healing someone who currently has a bounty. Which could have been the real reason you got wanted in the scuffle with the werewolf.

Majic · March 2015

Taking A Bite Out Of Crime

Ashigaru wrote: »

You can opt out, there is a option to not attack npc's or such in options and the same for stealing, you can turn the auto loot off for stolen items.

That doesn't apply to stealable items that aren't in containers, such as food and beverages sitting on tables or crates, which can be found right next to many merchants, and which can easily be stolen by accident when NPCs move or due to the dodgy way the cursor behaves in third-person view.

A proper solution would be to offer an option that simply doesn't allow stealing at all, and so far there hasn't been a single sensible argument against doing so posted in these forums.

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

Checked briefly right before server booted me and couldn't find any options pertaining to justice system

meh. Will poke around again later.

And I'm not saying they should remove the justice system altogether... I'm sure plenty of people love it. Just not the way I was playing the game before and not something I'm excited about personally when it's so easy to accidentally screw up. The whole point is that we're supposed to have a choice and face the consequences of that.

EinionYrth · March 2015

If I take something, unobserved by anyone, how would anyone know it was stolen? We aren't talking family heirlooms here but random crap. Weird and a tad annoying. 4/10 ZOS, needs work.

Kragorn · March 2015

Ashigaru wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

So just in the past couple hours, the justice system that I've wanted nothing to do with is making a mess out of my game. First, I thought I'd help heal someone who was fighting the werewolf (for the quest) in Daggerfall, not realizing that the reason they were failing was because there was a Daggerfall guard in the mix. Luckily, I died and didn't take the rep hit because of that. Ok, so now I guess I won't help any of my 'allies' which is a pity because some folks who choose to be healers really like helping others when they can, especially newbies. Heck, for all I know, she probably accidentally hit the guard while trying to attack the werewolf.

Shortly afterward, I was trying to click on an npc merchant to check their wares, but accidentally right clicked an item on the cart behind them and stole it... no dialog box confirming or anything and now there's a bounty on my head. Sooo sooo sooo not cool at all for that to happen so easily. I also almost accidentally stole while trying to talk to the banker moments before, but since it was a chest, I was able to cancel. Seriously? Honest players shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and get tagged as a thief when they ARE NOT. The justice system is failing when it works against folks like this, unless you want to say that Tamriel's system is quite crooked and fond of incriminating/framing innocent citizens.

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

You can opt out, there is a option to not attack npc's or such in options and the same for stealing, you can turn the auto loot off for stolen items.

This does NOT prevent 'stealing' of items on display in a vendor's stall. I have both options set as you indicate and I STILL managed to steal something in Ebonheart over the weekend when the NPC moved and I ended up targeting a shield when I clicked!

starkerealm · March 2015

EinionYrth wrote: »

If I take something, unobserved by anyone, how would anyone know it was stolen? We aren't talking family heirlooms here but random crap. Weird and a tad annoying. 4/10 ZOS, needs work.

Fun trivia: In Morrowind items that you stole were secretly marked for their owners. If you ever tried to sell those back to their rightful owner, you'd get a bounty. But you could otherwise sell to anyone. Oh, and if you picked up something that was owned, everything in that stack would also be marked as owned by the same person. There was also no indicator on what was or was not owned.

Oblivion streamlined it with the red hand in the inventory, a single stolen tag instead of "this is the rightful owner of all your soul gems" and forced you to deal with specific fences to move your hot goods. On the whole? I like this system a lot better because there's actual player feedback.

Adoryn wrote: »

Checked briefly right before server booted me and couldn't find any options pertaining to justice system meh. Will poke around again later.

The only systems are one that will keep you from accidentally injuring "innocents" and livestock, and the setting that will keep you from autolooting any owned container you interact with. That's it. There is nothing else.

Endurance · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

So just in the past couple hours, the justice system that I've wanted nothing to do with is making a mess out of my game. First, I thought I'd help heal someone who was fighting the werewolf (for the quest) in Daggerfall, not realizing that the reason they were failing was because there was a Daggerfall guard in the mix. Luckily, I died and didn't take the rep hit because of that. Ok, so now I guess I won't help any of my 'allies' which is a pity because some folks who choose to be healers really like helping others when they can, especially newbies. Heck, for all I know, she probably accidentally hit the guard while trying to attack the werewolf.

Shortly afterward, I was trying to click on an npc merchant to check their wares, but accidentally right clicked an item on the cart behind them and stole it... no dialog box confirming or anything and now there's a bounty on my head. Sooo sooo sooo not cool at all for that to happen so easily. I also almost accidentally stole while trying to talk to the banker moments before, but since it was a chest, I was able to cancel. Seriously? Honest players shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and get tagged as a thief when they ARE NOT. The justice system is failing when it works against folks like this, unless you want to say that Tamriel's system is quite crooked and fond of incriminating/framing innocent citizens.

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

deal with it.. its the exact same in morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim.. why would they change that in ESO? if an item has a red name on it then it doesnt belong to you, if you misclicked it then thats your fault the AI has always been like that when it comes to stealing property

starkerealm · March 2015

Endurance wrote: »

deal with it.. its the exact same in morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim..

Well, you know, except for Morrowind... and Skyrim... and, come to think of it, Oblivion. But other than being different, you're right, it's completely the same.

Endurance wrote: »

why would they change that in ESO?

Maybe the inability to quickload? I don't know, it's just a thought.

Endurance wrote: »

if an item has a red name on it then it doesnt belong to you, if you misclicked it then thats your fault

Because there is no such thing as lag. That's a myth.

Endurance wrote: »

the AI has always been like that when it comes to stealing property

Well, you know, except for that time before 1.6 when the AI was completely cool with you stealing stuff from under their noses. So, yes, it's always been that way... since last month.

lightz39 · March 2015

I personally love it. Feels as close to the single player games as it can I'd say. I play thief and really enjoy trying to sneak around without getting caught. I would almost make the punishment worse than a few gold coins.

starkerealm · March 2015

lightz39 wrote: »

I personally love it. Feels as close to the single player games as it can I'd say. I play thief and really enjoy trying to sneak around without getting caught. I would almost make the punishment worse than a few gold coins.

Don't get me wrong. I like the justice system. But there should be setting that locks you out of interacting with owned items. Interacting with locked doors because trespassing is necessary for some quests? I can understand. But, all the random detritus getting scattered around? Yeah, there needs to be a safety on that crap.

WhimsyDragon · March 2015

Endurance wrote: »

deal with it.. its the exact same in morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim.. why would they change that in ESO? if an item has a red name on it then it doesnt belong to you, if you misclicked it then thats your fault the AI has always been like that when it comes to stealing property

Just because previous games had a poorly designed mechanic doesn't mean dealing with it henceforth is a reasonable solution. Again, not saying remove it, I'm saying tweak it to be, you know, just.

utbackpacker911b14_ESO · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

So just in the past couple hours, the justice system that I've wanted nothing to do with is making a mess out of my game. First, I thought I'd help heal someone who was fighting the werewolf (for the quest) in Daggerfall, not realizing that the reason they were failing was because there was a Daggerfall guard in the mix. Luckily, I died and didn't take the rep hit because of that. Ok, so now I guess I won't help any of my 'allies' which is a pity because some folks who choose to be healers really like helping others when they can, especially newbies. Heck, for all I know, she probably accidentally hit the guard while trying to attack the werewolf.

Shortly afterward, I was trying to click on an npc merchant to check their wares, but accidentally right clicked an item on the cart behind them and stole it... no dialog box confirming or anything and now there's a bounty on my head. Sooo sooo sooo not cool at all for that to happen so easily. I also almost accidentally stole while trying to talk to the banker moments before, but since it was a chest, I was able to cancel. Seriously? Honest players shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and get tagged as a thief when they ARE NOT. The justice system is failing when it works against folks like this, unless you want to say that Tamriel's system is quite crooked and fond of incriminating/framing innocent citizens.

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

Not sure where you get "disaster" out of this,but you have to be cognitive of your surrounds,pay a little more attention to what you are doing and everything will be fine . Simple as that!

starkerealm · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

Endurance wrote: »

deal with it.. its the exact same in morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim.. why would they change that in ESO? if an item has a red name on it then it doesnt belong to you, if you misclicked it then thats your fault the AI has always been like that when it comes to stealing property

Just because previous games had a poorly designed mechanic doesn't mean dealing with it henceforth is a reasonable solution. Again, not saying remove it, I'm saying tweak it to be, you know, just.

Ironically, having just savaged Endurance a minute ago... I am inclined to defend the system from Oblivion and Skyrim... in their context.

For a single player game, where you have an auto save everytime you walk through a door, and can recover from an accident like this without losing anything more than a few minutes of progress. With the added bonus of it providing a coherent way to roleplay as a thief? That system works pretty well.

The problem is with ESO, we're looking at a system where there is no way to roll back from an accident. The items we're picking up have a much larger targeting box. And lag creates the possibility that you will in fact interact with something you didn't intend.

Again, the solution should be as simple as a toggle that prevents you from interacting with owned objects... but... we don't have that. $:\$

Lava_Croft · March 2015

You criminal scum!

Majic · March 2015

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

utbackpacker911b14_ESO · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

Endurance wrote: »

deal with it.. its the exact same in morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim.. why would they change that in ESO? if an item has a red name on it then it doesnt belong to you, if you misclicked it then thats your fault the AI has always been like that when it comes to stealing property

Just because previous games had a poorly designed mechanic doesn't mean dealing with it henceforth is a reasonable solution. Again, not saying remove it, I'm saying tweak it to be, you know, just.

Ironically, having just savaged Endurance a minute ago... I am inclined to defend the system from Oblivion and Skyrim... in their context.

For a single player game, where you have an auto save everytime you walk through a door, and can recover from an accident like this without losing anything more than a few minutes of progress. With the added bonus of it providing a coherent way to roleplay as a thief? That system works pretty well.

The problem is with ESO, we're looking at a system where there is no way to roll back from an accident. The items we're picking up have a much larger targeting box. And lag creates the possibility that you will in fact interact with something you didn't intend.

Again, the solution should be as simple as a toggle that prevents you from interacting with owned objects... but... we don't have that. $:\$

Quintessential gamer! Blame it on the lag! lol

starkerealm · March 2015

utbackpacker911b14_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Adoryn wrote: »

Endurance wrote: »

deal with it.. its the exact same in morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim.. why would they change that in ESO? if an item has a red name on it then it doesnt belong to you, if you misclicked it then thats your fault the AI has always been like that when it comes to stealing property

Just because previous games had a poorly designed mechanic doesn't mean dealing with it henceforth is a reasonable solution. Again, not saying remove it, I'm saying tweak it to be, you know, just.

Ironically, having just savaged Endurance a minute ago... I am inclined to defend the system from Oblivion and Skyrim... in their context.

For a single player game, where you have an auto save everytime you walk through a door, and can recover from an accident like this without losing anything more than a few minutes of progress. With the added bonus of it providing a coherent way to roleplay as a thief? That system works pretty well.

The problem is with ESO, we're looking at a system where there is no way to roll back from an accident. The items we're picking up have a much larger targeting box. And lag creates the possibility that you will in fact interact with something you didn't intend.

Again, the solution should be as simple as a toggle that prevents you from interacting with owned objects... but... we don't have that. $:\$

Quintessential gamer! Blame it on the lag! lol

It's the server load from the B2P relaunch. The last couple of days the servers have been downright weird at times.

Knootewoot · March 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Endurance wrote: »

deal with it.. its the exact same in morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim..

Well, you know, except for Morrowind... and Skyrim... and, come to think of it, Oblivion. But other than being different, you're right, it's completely the same.

Endurance wrote: »

why would they change that in ESO?

Maybe the inability to quickload? I don't know, it's just a thought.

Endurance wrote: »

if an item has a red name on it then it doesnt belong to you, if you misclicked it then thats your fault

Because there is no such thing as lag. That's a myth.

Endurance wrote: »

the AI has always been like that when it comes to stealing property

Well, you know, except for that time before 1.6 when the AI was completely cool with you stealing stuff from under their noses. So, yes, it's always been that way... since last month.

1: It is the same as in previous TES game.
- you can pickpocket and get caught - CHECK
- you can "accidently" steal an item not belonging to you - CHECK
- Except for Morrowind in Oblivion and Skyrim when indicated as red it means not yours - CHECK

2: Quickload? Never used that when caught stealing in previous TES games. It is part of your story and you just reverse time. Never understood this in RPG. It is what makes the game, bad or good choices.

3: Lag. We have lots of lag now. But I never accidenrly stole something because of it. So due to lag you press "e" grab all?

4: He ment the AI from the previous TES games. And now it's in TESO since 1.6. So yes it has always been like that in previous TES games.

Audigy · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

So just in the past couple hours, the justice system that I've wanted nothing to do with is making a mess out of my game. First, I thought I'd help heal someone who was fighting the werewolf (for the quest) in Daggerfall, not realizing that the reason they were failing was because there was a Daggerfall guard in the mix. Luckily, I died and didn't take the rep hit because of that. Ok, so now I guess I won't help any of my 'allies' which is a pity because some folks who choose to be healers really like helping others when they can, especially newbies. Heck, for all I know, she probably accidentally hit the guard while trying to attack the werewolf.

Shortly afterward, I was trying to click on an npc merchant to check their wares, but accidentally right clicked an item on the cart behind them and stole it... no dialog box confirming or anything and now there's a bounty on my head. Sooo sooo sooo not cool at all for that to happen so easily. I also almost accidentally stole while trying to talk to the banker moments before, but since it was a chest, I was able to cancel. Seriously? Honest players shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and get tagged as a thief when they ARE NOT. The justice system is failing when it works against folks like this, unless you want to say that Tamriel's system is quite crooked and fond of incriminating/framing innocent citizens.

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

You can opt out if you don't act like a newbie

Its a clear user error here, nothing else. If someone fights a guard then just don't assist, and stealing is bad anyways - at least if you are spotted.

Keron · March 2015

The only issue I have in this regard are the "grey craps equipment" that have been introduced at some point, you know those that are supposed to add flavour but only fill up inventory? Yeah, you can pick them up anywhere without any kind of warning/confirmation even if it is considered stealing.

Sometimes, you get tagged thief at locations that allow looting of containers without stealing, which really baffles me.

All of my very few deaths to guards come from that.

Gorthax · March 2015

in real life if you were to help a robber get away from the cops would you also get in trouble? If you aided a murderer running from the law, would you get in trouble?

The answer are yes. They implemented this FANTASTIC system to give those choices to people. Also to give joy to people on the forums watching people complain about getting in trouble for aiding the bad guys lol both are fun to watch

starkerealm · March 2015

Knootewoot wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Endurance wrote: »

deal with it.. its the exact same in morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim..

Well, you know, except for Morrowind... and Skyrim... and, come to think of it, Oblivion. But other than being different, you're right, it's completely the same.

Endurance wrote: »

why would they change that in ESO?

Maybe the inability to quickload? I don't know, it's just a thought.

Endurance wrote: »

if an item has a red name on it then it doesnt belong to you, if you misclicked it then thats your fault

Because there is no such thing as lag. That's a myth.

Endurance wrote: »

the AI has always been like that when it comes to stealing property

Well, you know, except for that time before 1.6 when the AI was completely cool with you stealing stuff from under their noses. So, yes, it's always been that way... since last month.

1: It is the same as in previous TES game.
- you can pickpocket and get caught - CHECK
- you can "accidently" steal an item not belonging to you - CHECK
- Except for Morrowind in Oblivion and Skyrim when indicated as red it means not yours - CHECK

And just like in Oblivion all of the criminals are hanging out in an underground base... no, wait. Um, just like Skyrim you can sell your stolen goods to any merchant you've invested in, no, wait, crap... I'll get this right one of these times. I know, just like in the single player games you get to pick what you lift off someone... no... hmm... maybe the invisible detection columns are the same? Oh well, at least you can only sell your goods to the thieves' guild members... oh, no, wait.

The system's iterated pretty seriously between all of the releases. ESO's no different in that regard.

Knootewoot wrote: »

2: Quickload? Never used that when caught stealing in previous TES games. It is part of your story and you just reverse time. Never understood this in RPG. It is what makes the game, bad or good choices.

By that logic, I never really used spellcrafting in Morrowind, so it must not be a part of that game, and by extension must not be a part of the franchise. Right?

Knootewoot wrote: »

3: Lag. We have lots of lag now. But I never accidenrly stole something because of it. So due to lag you press "e" grab all?

I haven't accidentally deleted a character yet. But, I'm sure it's happened to someone. I have seen the game instantly change my detection status while stealing however. So, you know, just because it doesn't happen to you must mean that's not really a thing, right?

Knootewoot wrote: »

4: He ment the AI from the previous TES games. And now it's in TESO since 1.6. So yes it has always been like that in previous TES games.

No, what he meant was, "shut up; you're making it harder for me to troll newbies," only, you know, without punctuation.

EDIT: or it's possible he's a salt vampire... who knew?

Lord_Bidr · March 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

So just in the past couple hours, the justice system that I've wanted nothing to do with is making a mess out of my game. First, I thought I'd help heal someone who was fighting the werewolf (for the quest) in Daggerfall, not realizing that the reason they were failing was because there was a Daggerfall guard in the mix. Luckily, I died and didn't take the rep hit because of that. Ok, so now I guess I won't help any of my 'allies' which is a pity because some folks who choose to be healers really like helping others when they can, especially newbies. Heck, for all I know, she probably accidentally hit the guard while trying to attack the werewolf.

Shortly afterward, I was trying to click on an npc merchant to check their wares, but accidentally right clicked an item on the cart behind them and stole it... no dialog box confirming or anything and now there's a bounty on my head. Sooo sooo sooo not cool at all for that to happen so easily. I also almost accidentally stole while trying to talk to the banker moments before, but since it was a chest, I was able to cancel. Seriously? Honest players shouldn't have to walk on eggshells and get tagged as a thief when they ARE NOT. The justice system is failing when it works against folks like this, unless you want to say that Tamriel's system is quite crooked and fond of incriminating/framing innocent citizens.

I want to opt out so badly, some sort of toggle, because this really isn't my play style and I'm baffled as to how this got past the test server. Please remedy this, ZOS!

Sigh...I have 2 options for you:

1) If it was an accident, just pay the fine to the guard, the fee shouldn't be so high that you absolutely cannot pay it. It's your fault you were careless, now pay the damn price.

2) Go to your settings and turn the justice system off. Yes, the option is ALREADY there. No need to wonder how this got past the test server, cause it didn't.

Keron · March 2015

Does no one read post text anymore?

Healing is NOT disabled by the option. Stealing stuff by rightclick without confirmation just because that damn NPC in the booth moved from under your reticle just at the moment you press "E" and there just happens to be one of those pick-up-able junk items within line of sight is NOT disabled by the option.

While the healing thing may be a point of discussion and appreciated to stop the bank-healing-springs-spam, the other one is just idiotic.

So this wonderful piece of advice:

sc_prabhu1986rwb17_ESO wrote: »

2) Go to your settings and turn the justice system off. Yes, the option is ALREADY there. No need to wonder how this got past the test server, cause it didn't.

is so completely useless and inappropriate I can't even find words for it.