Healers/Ballgroups/Premades Are Outperforming in Dragonhold

SoixanteNeuf

This rant is coming from a perspective where healers and their respective premade groups are optimized for healing and are coordinated for ult dumps.

Healers are a problem and offer too much group utility in Dragonhold/pvp in general. In the last few patches, you could pick off healers within a premade with well-timed stamina bursts or attrition via damage.

However, in Dragonhold - the defensive skill ceiling has been lowered via lowering key burst damage like dizzy swing/ult cast times and overall damage, via dots - so healers that are well-built but not necessarily good players, now have a much easier time staying alive (slower reaction time required to block/break free and given how much less damage players do now).

Premades/Ball groups are overperforming

There just isn't sufficient damage to kill premades with decently built healers without coordinated ult dumps (ideally with a colossus). Some recent unwarranted changes to popular classes like magsorcs with matriarchs/power surge are compounding this healing problem. Additionally, existing things like healing monster sets like Bogdan/Chokethorn/Earthgore add to the advantage that premade ballgroups already have.

Solution : Experiment with a Battle Spirit healing debuff, where healing from 3rd parties have diminishing returns. Something more needs to be implemented to incentivize groups to NOT stick together while stacking heals.

Healing monster are overperforming in PvPs

There's a need for healing in PvE but when it comes to PvP, healing sets in ballgroups overperform. For example, Chokethorn heals someone for 20k hp over 4 seconds every 10 seconds - that hps is far more than the dps from damage sets such as Valkyn/Selene/Grothdarr because it isn't mitigated by resists/blocking/shields. Yes, you can bash it but by the time you do that, your main target is likely at full hp because you have to waste one global cooldown and walk towards the chokethorn. Additionally, the utility from the burst heal from Earthgore/Chokethorn on top of healing skills is derived from the ability to quickly pull someone out of execution range/outheal ult dumps.

Solution : Implement the Battle Spirit healing debuff or tone down the healing/utility from these sets : for example, reducing Chokethorn's insane range - I think it's currently 20m+.

Bursting healers is harder than ever

With the nerf to healer counters aka stamina dizzy burst/overall dps/fast break requirement cc's like dizzy, healers now have an easier time staying alive because their natural predators are now nerfed. Healing outperforms almost everything except colossus ults.

Solution : Reimplement dizzy stun

Implement Solo Queue/Group Queue

Given all the above mentioned issues with healing, premades compound that issue against solo queuers because there is little chance/margin to solo burst down their healer with the normalization/nerfs to stamina burst/overall damage. So what usually ends up happening is, the premade survives/tanks damage from pug groups before they coordinate ult dumps. In previous patches, solo queuers had the ability to pick off their healers but now they don't.

tl;dr - this meta REALLY rewards the worst things about bgs : healers/premades/magsorcs/tankier builds. In the previous meta, dots were unbalanced but the game was much faster and fun, damage actually felt meaningful. Nowadays, just throwing on a sufficiently tanky build and running with a competent healer guarantees survival, which wasn't the case in any of the previous patches.

A meaningful solution would be to reduce the heals from 3rd parties because self sufficiency/proper resource management should be rewarded - not relying on a tanky healbot/voice comms.

OG_Kaveman

People working together in a mmo? Heaven forbid.

SoixanteNeuf

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

People working together in a mmo? Heaven forbid.

Note : Overperforming relative to previous patches

Qbiken

Solution : Experiment with a Battle Spirit healing debuff, where healing from 3rd parties have diminishing returns. Something more needs to be implemented to incentivize groups to NOT stick together while stacking heals

This is how you kill smallscale btw, just saying. And stamina cross-healing is already garbage as it is (echoing vigor is not really worth it unless you're in a really big group).

I'd rather go with your suggestion about improving how premades should face other premades. I too hate facing 3-4 man premades, but I'd rather not punish people for playing organized than fixing the mmr/matchmaking system.

ChunkyCat

Healing in PvP is overturned and has been for a few years now.

If I were a betting man, I would say that at some point ZoS made a conscious decision to appeal to a players desire to stay alive as long as possible. No one likes losing in a video game. If ZoS can’t placate everyone, they can certainly placate the average player by helping him/her not die so often.

That’s the only way I can explain a nerf to “defiles” with a buff to healing.

mague

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Healing in PvP is overturned and has been for a few years now.

If I were a betting man, I would say that at some point ZoS made a conscious decision to appeal to a players desire to stay alive as long as possible. No one likes losing in a video game. If ZoS can’t placate everyone, they can certainly placate the average player by helping him/her not die so often.

That’s the only way I can explain a nerf to “defiles” with a buff to healing.

Its neither nor. As it is balanced at the moment it is giving the illusion of survivability but at the same time there are no tools to win. Its just like cat and mouse, the longer the prey lives the more fun. A good example is to give heal but destroy Purifying Light. Just fresh meat into the zombie cage.

ChunkyCat

No, it’s not balanced.

Healing X amount of damage is easier than Dealing X amount of damage.

Kadoin

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

T
Solution : Reimplement dizzy stun

So you wrote all of that just to throw this in here. Really...?

Kadoin

"Healing is overtuned"

Yet won't name what skills are. I can tell what heals are definitely overtuned:

[skills] : matriarch, healing ward (as long as BRP resto exists with no downside), rapid regen AND radiating, vigor, ALL HP % heals, living dark

sets: Earthgore, Bogdan, Trinimac, Chokethorn

As for healing ults, only one will make my list really: Life Giver

Skills and sets that are not there are not there for a concrete reason.

Also, if we wanna talk about healing in a CP environment, can't forget to talk about vengence CP passive, critical leech that still procs sets, cost reduction passives in the line, etc.

And don't get me started on the sets that are defensive that I think give too much. Yeah, let's stop here...

MartiniDaniels

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

People working together in a mmo? Heaven forbid.

To read more then thread caption before triggering? Heaven forbid.

nsmurfer

1vxers using toxic builds are the actual thing overperforming and the main cause of all nerfs

Kadoin

nsmurfer wrote: »

1vxers using toxic builds are the actual thing overperforming and the main cause of all nerfs

It's true, people will be surprised at what's possible and just how much "carry" you can build into your builds this patch...

BNOC

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

Bursting healers is harder than ever

With the nerf to healer counters aka stamina dizzy burst/overall dps/fast break requirement cc's like dizzy, healers now have an easier time staying alive because their natural predators are now nerfed. Healing outperforms almost everything except colossus ults.

Solution : Reimplement dizzy stun

Implement Solo Queue/Group Queue

Given all the above mentioned issues with healing, premades compound that issue against solo queuers because there is little chance/margin to solo burst down their healer with the normalization/nerfs to stamina burst/overall damage. So what usually ends up happening is, the premade survives/tanks damage from pug groups before they coordinate ult dumps. In previous patches, solo queuers had the ability to pick off their healers but now they don't.

1. Stamina burst and overall damage is absolutely massive. Stam DK's comboing ~25k Hp in <1s, Stam Wardens and Stam Sorcs doing just about the same, what game are you playing?
2. Why is the solution to bring back dizzying swing stun? What about Magicka characters?

nsmurfer wrote: »

1vxers using toxic builds are the actual thing overperforming and the main cause of all nerfs

Don't chat waffle, I don't know what a "toxic build" is lmao but that's hilarious, you guys at the bottom will literally slap a buzz word in front of anything these days.

The root cause of nerfs is to help all of you, they implement these kind of sets and changes to dumb down combat for all of the donuts - It's funny that when donuts use "toxic" sets, and just do average(but better than normal), it's totally cool and a fun game - But when the big boys get them and actually use them effectively, you all get the picket signs out.

Everyone knows BG Queues and matchmaking is ***, that's another issue - But these groups aren't a problem in Cyrodil, stay away from them and you won't get lit up.

iCaliban

Dizzy should have the stun back and the cast time reverted to 1 second. Dont have any argument with that. Destructive reach should stun again as well.

Regardless, dizzy was not a realistic ball group buster. It was trivially easy for most teams to simply lock down melee players preventing them from getting off sufficient damage.

The only combo ive seen take out well built teams with a healer all center around ult dumps with a necro. Even without a healer, the amount of cross healing templars put out (and to an extent mag wardens) makes even non premade teams nigh unkillable.

There isnt a simple solution. Burst damage from multiple players spikes very high. Bringing dots back isnt the answer, and the previous very unequal distribution of defile isnt either.

SoixanteNeuf

BNOC wrote: »

2. Why is the solution to bring back dizzying swing stun? What about Magicka characters?

iCaliban wrote: »

Regardless, dizzy was not a realistic ball group buster. It was trivially easy for most teams to simply lock down melee players preventing them from getting off sufficient damage.

My overall point wasn't that pre-nerf dizzy's damage/cc was a ballgroup buster - my point was, it was a useful tool to focus key targets aka: healers. The cc from dizzy is so highly telegraphed now and the damage negligible to well-built healers. They have a lot more time to react via blocking/healing/purging etc.

Healers are usually well-protected by their teams and the trade off for the chance at picking them off was a 0.8-1 second channel, which made those stam players easier to lock down in turn. With that nerfed, healers are unchecked while they stack aoe heals/chokethorns etc - leading to stalemates if teams have healers.

Anyways, something needs to be done about stacking heals per second from 3rd parties - hps isn't mitigated by blocking/resistances but dps is, there's the major difference.

Urzigurumash

@Kadoin

You think Trinimac's Valor is overperforming? That's interesting, can you share why? I've seen little discussion or use of this set since its recent improvement. It seems as though it's tailor-made for DK Healers, an uncommon and underpowered spec.

It makes a really nice sound.

Iskiab

I find it hilarious that someone would say skill has been removed because they can’t spam one button (dizzy swing) repeatedly and do well. I guess people have different opinions on what skill is.

To be honest small scalers/solo don’t stand a chance. Doesn’t matter what the game or platform is, if you get two groups one one builds unselfishly to complement each other and the other only builds for their own power the selfish group will get steamrolled over and over again.

You’re complaining about a life lesson and attributing it to the game. Though the rationales small scalers think the other groups are using are always interesting, wrong, but interesting.

Dusk_Coven

The problem is not "XYZ is outperforming".
The real problem is that in an environment with so many options for individual characters, multipled by options for how to put together a team, someone will eventually hit on a really good combination.
It is futile to try to "balance" anything in such a system.

The best way is to just let it be and let the community either come up with a counter, or play the same thing and accept a stalemate.

Taleof2Cities

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Kadoin

You think Trinimac's Valor is overperforming? That's interesting, can you share why? I've seen little discussion or use of this set since its recent improvement. It seems as though it's tailor-made for DK Healers, an uncommon and underpowered spec.

It makes a really nice sound.

When ZOS “buffed” Trinimac they forgot about buffing its tiny proc radius ... but I agree with you, @Urzigurumash, there are better PvP healer sets even on a DK.

I have not met one NA PC PvP healer using the set after the patch.

Overall, though, I think the OP will need to share the exact situations where they perceive they are having issues ... because a fix to Dizzying Swing probably isn’t going to change the landscape much.

PhoenixGrey

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

People working together in a mmo? Heaven forbid.

Garbage players getting carried by healers ? Heaven forbid

buttaface

Not having separate random queues and premade queues in an MMO game pvp arena system is a catastrophic, crucial error. Always has been, always will be. I don't want to play in such a system as a random nor as a premade, and will wager there are more like me than not.

OG_Kaveman

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

People working together in a mmo? Heaven forbid.

Garbage players getting carried by healers ? Heaven forbid

they garbage because they are getting help from their teammate, in a team game? what great logic there.

Major_Lag

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

People working together in a mmo? Heaven forbid.

Garbage players getting carried by healers ? Heaven forbid

they garbage because they are getting help from their teammate, in a team game? what great logic there.

The problem is that in the extreme case of ballgroups, there is so much cross healing that everyone is 100% invincible.
A simple back-of-the-envelope estimate points to >20k healing per second, that's just insane.

So that then leads to ballgroup members using "very unusual" builds, such as the ballgroup "purge monkey", which would be obliterated in an instant when fought completely outside the ballgroup's protection.

It also leads to the "DPS" members using no-skill AoE spam builds with 0 built-in survivability, again because they are 100% carried by the ballgroup's cross-healing.

IMO, a good way to deter such no-skill gameplay without deleting the healer role entirely, would be to implement diminishing returns on each additional outside (non-self) source of healing.
For example:
- you get healed by 1 healer = 100% effectiveness (100% total healing)
- heals from a 2nd healer get diminished by 25% (175% total healing)
- from a 3rd healer, heals are 50% less effective (225% total healing)
- heals from the 4th healer are 75% less effective (250% total healing)
- etc. (you get the point)

Mojomonkeyman

Agreed, healing is overperforming. I mean, it's a logical consequence of buffing heals and making major defile harder to access. No major defile on target healer means endless reset opportunity for the target even in current bg/nocp environment.

I don't consider the loss of cheesy dizzy stun a bad thing. Make major defile more accessible again or (preferably) tone healing down. It's just insane how much healing value certain classes can get out of each point of ressources spent.

Kadoin

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Kadoin

You think Trinimac's Valor is overperforming? That's interesting, can you share why? I've seen little discussion or use of this set since its recent improvement. It seems as though it's tailor-made for DK Healers, an uncommon and underpowered spec.

It makes a really nice sound.

I use it with stendarr to proc free cleanse in zerg. With more than one person using that combination you can save lots of magicka, and its a very useful combination in noCP and CP despite the long CD of Stendarr. It actually gets more useful the more targets you have to heal.

I actually use that combination + bogdan on my DK healer in noCP open world and BGs before the set was buffed, but now for certain because it offers a predictable AoE heal and that AoE heal can generate a free rotating cleanse exactly because of ZOS' CD mechanic on Stendarr.

Bobby_V_Rockit

So you want to nerf premade groups? How does one even do that? I mean, you COULD impose the dungeon finder logic (2xDD, 1x Tank 1x Healer) but fake DDs and Tanks would just join anyway and you’d have that to whine about.

The counter to well organised premade groups is to join or host a well organised premade group of your own.

technohic

I think a lot is to do with purge spam in groups. You xant get any status effects to stick. Make efficient purge self only and slightly cheaper and the other morph group but require a synergy.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Awe, is this thread gonna nerf PvE again?

Xvorg

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Kadoin

You think Trinimac's Valor is overperforming? That's interesting, can you share why? I've seen little discussion or use of this set since its recent improvement. It seems as though it's tailor-made for DK Healers, an uncommon and underpowered spec.

It makes a really nice sound.

When ZOS “buffed” Trinimac they forgot about buffing its tiny proc radius ... but I agree with you, @Urzigurumash, there are better PvP healer sets even on a DK.

I have not met one NA PC PvP healer using the set after the patch.

Overall, though, I think the OP will need to share the exact situations where they perceive they are having issues ... because a fix to Dizzying Swing probably isn’t going to change the landscape much.

In fact, I see it more useful on an organized ball group, with that DK being a buffer tank

Xvorg

technohic wrote: »

I think a lot is to do with purge spam in groups. You xant get any status effects to stick. Make efficient purge self only and slightly cheaper and the other morph group but require a synergy.

Bingo.

As long as purge cleanses DoTs instead of cleasing effects (mostly debuffs), dmg will not be as noticeable as healing. I'm OK with the way how purge works, but I disagree with the fact taht is a direct counter to DoTs (or delayed burst like curse)

Major_Lag

technohic wrote: »

I think a lot is to do with purge spam in groups. You xant get any status effects to stick. Make efficient purge self only and slightly cheaper and the other morph group but require a synergy.

Yes, any decent ballgroup will have a dedicated "purge monkey" (or even more than 1!) whose only job is to spam Purge every GCD.

For fun I once tried to apply Soul Splitting Trap to a ballgroup - no dice, it was being purged faster than I could reapply it.