Undaunted Silver...

P3ZZL3

Just a general question to @ZOS_RichLambert and Co.

The silver run is pretty basic and standard, but the benefits gained from it are Decon Trash at best....

Is there any chance that whilst re-working the gold pledge items/chests you could maybe put in a scaling system where it would recognise your level and at least give you a chance for something half decent. Even if it were Tempors/Resins, maybe a batch of 20 Potions...*shrugs* Get a little more inventive with it rather than what it gives now?

As far as I can see some are running it as 2 mans just for the laugh, but outside of that, once your are a "semi-seasoned" player it's just not worth doing....

Minor Update / Edit to the Core Post:
When thinking about the changes that could be made, or adjustments to the reward structure, please take into account the following:

• Think about mechanics already used in the game. If something else can be re-worked or used to make silver better, without having to rework core mechanics or implementing totally new ones, then the concept has far more chance of being considered
• Keep the suggestions on topic and in line with the core post. Again, the more it stays on topic, the more chance of it being taken seriously

Zsymon

I agree, doing silver and gold the first time is a lot of fun, but after having done it three or four times with alts, it could really use some rewards to make you forget the grind.

Emma_Overload

I think they need to go a lot farther. There is literally no point whatsoever to doing normal pledges except for the tiny amount of advancement of your Undaunted skill line.

Not only should the silver keys drop better loot, I believe they should drop Undaunted gear like the gold keys, but at a lower drop rate. I'm not talking about the crappy 7 piece armor sets, I'm talking about the juicy 2 piece helm/shoulder gear that everyone wants.

Furthermore, normal dungeon bosses should have a chance of dropping GOOD sets like Adroitness. It sucks that only Vet dungeons have this kind of gear, because solo players are screwed (as usual).

P3ZZL3

Thing is, I know they have to take in to account the new players arriving at it for the first time.

Hence the thoughts of Scaling when you do it v14. The tech is there as the system knows if you are not v14 running the vet dungeons. Surely it wouldn't be to hard (in the big scheme of things) to do it.

As for the Undaunted gear.....well, to be honest, that's all a waste as well. I don't know anyone who runs it at all when you get up to v10+ .... Crafted make far more sense, unless you have the cash to buy the other gear... *shrugs*

ZOS_RichLambert

We'll take a look!

Turelus

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We'll take a look!

Thank you! I have felt the same as the OP for a while, most of my guild friends won't waste their time with silver key and PUGs are somewhat uncommon. I want the achievement for it and miss playing some of the part 1 dungeons.

Not really sure what could be added to these myself however, I wouldn't want to see anything which outweighs the current gold key items/sets however.

olemanwinter

I want to chime in and say I agree.

I literally never did a single normal pledge EVER after I learned there was zero chance to get monster shoulders from Silver Keys.

I expected Silver keys to have a reduced change, not zero.

I agree 100% that the regular dungeons scaled to VR need better rewards and silver keys need at least a small chance to result in a monster piece.

The monster pieces could even be blue instead of purple. And instead of perhaps 20% chance with gold keys it could be 10%.

I would think the reduced quality and reduced chance would still make the extra effort of the Gold key well worth the time.

Pman85

I dont mind the extra quests, but the thing that bugs me the most, is that I take my guild to battle in Cyrodiil, but just before that I was saving the Elf Queen or getting back the HIgh Kings soul. I think it takes away from the overall story soo much.

Robbmrp

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We'll take a look!

Hello @ZOS_RichLambert, would it also be possible to change the chest difficulty for the Veteran Zones as well? IMO any chests found in a Veteran Zone shouldn't be easy. The zone's not supposed to be so why are we given a quick easy chest? Craglorn should never have a chest easier than Advanced or higher.

Also, shouldn't the loot be better based on chest difficulty? Anything below an Advanced chest should contain white and green armor, blue for Advanced and purple for all higher levels of difficulty.

MissBizz

I agree, unless I'm just bored and really having a good time with the group I'm with, I don't bother doing the normal pledge. The gear just doesn't excite me in any way. Maybe even if they don't want to add the 2 pc sets to silver.. let us trade in X # of silver keys for a gold key.

UrQuan

Pman85 wrote: »

I dont mind the extra quests, but the thing that bugs me the most, is that I take my guild to battle in Cyrodiil, but just before that I was saving the Elf Queen or getting back the HIgh Kings soul. I think it takes away from the overall story soo much.

Um, I think perhaps you're talking about Cadwell's Silver, while this thread is about the silver keys for completing non-vet Undaunted pledges.

Turelus

Robbmrp wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We'll take a look!

Hello @ZOS_RichLambert, would it also be possible to change the chest difficulty for the Veteran Zones as well? IMO any chests found in a Veteran Zone shouldn't be easy. The zone's not supposed to be so why are we given a quick easy chest? Craglorn should never have a chest easier than Advanced or higher.

Also, shouldn't the loot be better based on chest difficulty? Anything below an Advanced chest should contain white and green armor, blue for Advanced and purple for all higher levels of difficulty.

Rewards are already better from higher difficulty, this is why you find more simple chests than the harder ones as it's a balance of the loot drops. Also given max legerdomain and skill investment you can auto-pick most chests with 80% chance negating the harder chests difficulty.

Simple will never give you a set item unless you have the CP passive.
All higher tiers will give a chance of a set item for that level/zone as well as more gold/items.

IIRC some higher level chests also give blue/purple items? Though I may have dreamt this one.

I would love to see some more rewards/sets/choices from chests however as I feel exploration and even opening chests when you find them outside of Cyrodiil becomes pointless seeing as no one wants less than max VR items.

olemanwinter

Pman85 wrote: »

I dont mind the extra quests, but the thing that bugs me the most, is that I take my guild to battle in Cyrodiil, but just before that I was saving the Elf Queen or getting back the HIgh Kings soul. I think it takes away from the overall story soo much.

?????

Caldwell's Silver ...VS.....Undaunted Silver

Perhaps?

UrQuan

MissBizz wrote: »

I agree, unless I'm just bored and really having a good time with the group I'm with, I don't bother doing the normal pledge. The gear just doesn't excite me in any way. Maybe even if they don't want to add the 2 pc sets to silver.. let us trade in X # of silver keys for a gold key.

I'd like that. I think a 3:1 ratio would probably be reasonable.

Robbmrp

Turelus wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We'll take a look!

Hello @ZOS_RichLambert, would it also be possible to change the chest difficulty for the Veteran Zones as well? IMO any chests found in a Veteran Zone shouldn't be easy. The zone's not supposed to be so why are we given a quick easy chest? Craglorn should never have a chest easier than Advanced or higher.

Also, shouldn't the loot be better based on chest difficulty? Anything below an Advanced chest should contain white and green armor, blue for Advanced and purple for all higher levels of difficulty.

Rewards are already better from higher difficulty, this is why you find more simple chests than the harder ones as it's a balance of the loot drops. Also given max legerdomain and skill investment you can auto-pick most chests with 80% chance negating the harder chests difficulty.

Simple will never give you a set item unless you have the CP passive.
All higher tiers will give a chance of a set item for that level/zone as well as more gold/items.

IIRC some higher level chests also give blue/purple items? Though I may have dreamt this one.

I would love to see some more rewards/sets/choices from chests however as I feel exploration and even opening chests when you find them outside of Cyrodiil becomes pointless seeing as no one wants less than max VR items.

For me it's all about chest placement and difficulty. Why place a simple chest in a Vet area? The areas are supposed to be more difficult as they increase so why not chests? People constantly complain about the crap gear the game drops over and over again. At least make it worth peoples time to stop and get a chest in the higher areas. I'd never pass up a chest in the higher zones if it had the hardest difficulty. You want more set items from chests, this is a perfect opportunity to make that happen. Remove every chest from Vet zones under Advanced and increase the drop rate for set items.

Turelus

Robbmrp wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We'll take a look!

Hello @ZOS_RichLambert, would it also be possible to change the chest difficulty for the Veteran Zones as well? IMO any chests found in a Veteran Zone shouldn't be easy. The zone's not supposed to be so why are we given a quick easy chest? Craglorn should never have a chest easier than Advanced or higher.

Also, shouldn't the loot be better based on chest difficulty? Anything below an Advanced chest should contain white and green armor, blue for Advanced and purple for all higher levels of difficulty.

Rewards are already better from higher difficulty, this is why you find more simple chests than the harder ones as it's a balance of the loot drops. Also given max legerdomain and skill investment you can auto-pick most chests with 80% chance negating the harder chests difficulty.

Simple will never give you a set item unless you have the CP passive.
All higher tiers will give a chance of a set item for that level/zone as well as more gold/items.

IIRC some higher level chests also give blue/purple items? Though I may have dreamt this one.

I would love to see some more rewards/sets/choices from chests however as I feel exploration and even opening chests when you find them outside of Cyrodiil becomes pointless seeing as no one wants less than max VR items.

For me it's all about chest placement and difficulty. Why place a simple chest in a Vet area? The areas are supposed to be more difficult as they increase so why not chests? People constantly complain about the crap gear the game drops over and over again. At least make it worth peoples time to stop and get a chest in the higher areas. I'd never pass up a chest in the higher zones if it had the hardest difficulty. You want more set items from chests, this is a perfect opportunity to make that happen. Remove every chest from Vet zones under Advanced and increase the drop rate for set items.

Simply because VR area are not hard for VR14 characters or the VR characters running those areas.
This is the same as saying pre-vet areas are hard for pre-vet characters and should have better rewards, sadly you can't have higher end chests only in an area as none of them are challenging enough to warrant it. Additionally as chests have a static spawn location players could in theory farm and receive only high-end items from them (already happens that way with CP passive).

Also the value of the items in VR zones will never really be that high simply because they cap out below the games level cap. The only places to get max VR items is VR14 dungeons/trials or Cyrodiil.
Now say if they changed the CP passive from treat all chests as one level higher to something like "add a 25% chance to gain a level scaled item from a chest" it might be worth opening them, however then people would just run around farming chests in low level zones for their VR14 items.

Any way we should stay on topic here before people get upset.

HeroOfNone

A simple fix:

Dungeon bind on pick up armor sets like Worm cult, ebony armor, savior armor, various dungeon rings and weapon sets should have a chance to drop in silver chests.

It shouldn't be a high percentage, but it would give better rewards without having to add a lot, give a chance to get some gear that seems to have a very small dungeon drop rate but still requires you run through a dungeon to do it. For a scaled up version it may be better than others.

If this isn't enough, start dropping various leveled and quality runes (green, blue, purple, even gold) to give folks something to use, collect, or break down.

HeroOfNone

Oh, and @Shunravi @yodased and other dungeon dwellers might want to add their 2 cents

UrQuan

HeroOfNone wrote: »

A simple fix:

Dungeon bind on pick up armor sets like Worm cult, ebony armor, savior armor, various dungeon rings and weapon sets should have a chance to drop in silver chests.

It shouldn't be a high percentage, but it would give better rewards without having to add a lot, give a chance to get some gear that seems to have a very small dungeon drop rate but still requires you run through a dungeon to do it. For a scaled up version it may be better than others.

Yeah, I'd like that too. If you combined this idea with the idea of being able to turn in X number of silver keys for a gold key, I think a lot more people would do the non-vet pledges.

Dagoth_Rac

I do enjoy 3-manning the normal dungeon pledges. But yeah, the rewards are garbage. I think the chests should all drop the same gear at the same rates, but the silver chests should max at blue and VR15, while the gold chests max at purple and VR16. Kind of like the Master Weapons from normal versus veteran DSA. True min/max players will want to run the gold pledges for the VR16 versions, but many players would enjoy the chance at slightly less powerful VR15 versions from silver keys.

DerpyShadowz

I personally feel there is more than could be done regarding dungeons in general.

Most of this is coming off the top of my head (And perhaps half out my arse)

Its finding a balance between the difficulty of the content, and the award given to the player.
At the moment, with a competitive group, you can easily breeze through the veteran dungeons in an extremely short time. This is where i think issues arise and things get tricky, The loot should be improved yes, and make it feel like your achieving something (instead of a completely basic purple decon item) And also not have this RNG feel with the undaunted stuff (Where it can take 2-3 months to get the set you wanted but you got the worst trait, This really is disheartening)

But the issue is, how do you fix that? Going back to what i said, The dungeons themselves are extremely short to complete and offering great/worthwhile loot for this short time also feels a bit iffy, because then its not like you really worked for it and it doesn't make it nearly as unique as it should be if its achievable in under 10 minutes. (possibly add an extra Veteran + mode? )

Sanctum Ophidia, A 12 man trial yes, But i feel 4 man group dungeons should be along the same wave length as this trial, By that i mean, of the same size and scale (if not even better) of what you need to do in order to finish it (Obviously within the means of a 4 man group scale) (And yes CoA is a start, but its still extremely short for what it is also) Item sets could be linked to key achievements within the dungeon, This way you have a progression, something to work towards over time but also not complete RNG crap.

You could do this by adding new elements into dungeons, Like DSA for example, Having to keep the fire lit or you die from the cold, Obviously not exactly the same mechanic, but im sure you understand where im going with this, create optional parts to a dungeon that you have to complete X while doing X fight within a certain time ect ect, (Hel Ra horn another example, Your given an optional way, and it completely changes the mechanic/way the dungeon works and adds new elements) Also, In this age of gaming, RNG spawn points should really be a thing, spawns are too linear and predictable pattern to follow, makes content alot less fun in a much faster time frame. Something like that to spice things up. It would feel more rewarding to gain worthwhile loot with things along these lines.

One could argue "Well thats what gold pledges are for!" Well, yes. But lets be real here, the requirements for these daily quests are extremely trivial a 3 year old child could grasp what to do to complete it. Im talking on a much wider scale, not just a simple part for the entire dungeon, but create unique key optional steps through-out the entire dungeon from start to finish.


Feel free to pick apart my wall of text or criticize whatever you want, i literally typed this off the top of my head bored at work. And dont take it too seriously, i used things as examples of what could be done on a much broader scale than currently.

-Derp

P3ZZL3

Agreed @Dagoth_Rac

I've run a v13 Masters Inferno for a while - and I know it's not the v14 and it does Irk me a little, but I dropped it on my first DSA run, so it has some sentimental meaning

I do like the idea of trading in the keys, irrelevant of ratio. MY only concern with that concept is that the core code/capability is not already in the game as far as I know. If there is a process that could be used to simulate this, then do post it.

I'm trying to think of ways that in reality are very little input to the code structure or massive re-works. More thought goes in to that, then there is much more chance of it being slated for technical review

I think the Blue scaled items for Silver make sense. I also quite like the idea of them being "non Bound". IT allows people the chance to sell them in the market place and create a market again for Silver gear.

@ZOS_RichLambert Thanks for the response - and good to see you on Twitch last Friday.

Turelus

HeroOfNone wrote: »

A simple fix:

Dungeon bind on pick up armor sets like Worm cult, ebony armor, savior armor, various dungeon rings and weapon sets should have a chance to drop in silver chests.

It shouldn't be a high percentage, but it would give better rewards without having to add a lot, give a chance to get some gear that seems to have a very small dungeon drop rate but still requires you run through a dungeon to do it. For a scaled up version it may be better than others.

THIS PLEASE! I am so tired of trying to get the parts I need of these sets and this would give me a good reason to run silver every day.

Nahz

HeroOfNone wrote: »

A simple fix:

Dungeon bind on pick up armor sets like Worm cult, ebony armor, savior armor, various dungeon rings and weapon sets should have a chance to drop in silver chests.

It shouldn't be a high percentage, but it would give better rewards without having to add a lot, give a chance to get some gear that seems to have a very small dungeon drop rate but still requires you run through a dungeon to do it. For a scaled up version it may be better than others.

If this isn't enough, start dropping various leveled and quality runes (green, blue, purple, even gold) to give folks something to use, collect, or break down.

I was just about to suggest this! I'm lucky enough to have gotten a vr12 staff of thorn (the set increases healing by 8%), and would really like to get the complete set to make my sorcerer healer more effective.

Attorneyatlawl

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

We'll take a look!

Definitely... other than helping to speed up leveling a new character's Undaunted rank, there's not much reason for most people to go back to them, which is a shame because those "normal mode" dungeons have the same quality as, and in most of them the first part of the story even, that continues on in the "veteran mode" versions.

Direfrost Keep is still my favorite .

leeux

No exactly on-topic on this, so sorry in advance... but I thought about adding my two cents here

While you're at it, can you pleeeease add more drops for Warlock rings? Even if they're not as good as the blue Vr12 ones dropping from Trials, but ANYTHING better than the green VR1 we're forced to use due to the lack of drops.

Maybe a chance for a VR11/13 drops in craglorn, so the quests and content are worth doing? (Asuming, ofc, that with the next patch the best ones will be VR15/16... we'll have to see about that.)

Thank you!!

Shunravi

I think they could do a fun mix of these two.

MissBizz wrote: »

I agree, unless I'm just bored and really having a good time with the group I'm with, I don't bother doing the normal pledge. The gear just doesn't excite me in any way. Maybe even if they don't want to add the 2 pc sets to silver.. let us trade in X # of silver keys for a gold key.

HeroOfNone wrote: »

A simple fix:

Dungeon bind on pick up armor sets like Worm cult, ebony armor, savior armor, various dungeon rings and weapon sets should have a chance to drop in silver chests.

It shouldn't be a high percentage, but it would give better rewards without having to add a lot, give a chance to get some gear that seems to have a very small dungeon drop rate but still requires you run through a dungeon to do it. For a scaled up version it may be better than others.

If this isn't enough, start dropping various leveled and quality runes (green, blue, purple, even gold) to give folks something to use, collect, or break down.

Maybe have those sets come from silver keys, but also be able to trade in silver's for a gold. And the gold chests wouldn't have those sets. So there is a choice.

Attorneyatlawl

Nahz wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

A simple fix:

Dungeon bind on pick up armor sets like Worm cult, ebony armor, savior armor, various dungeon rings and weapon sets should have a chance to drop in silver chests.

It shouldn't be a high percentage, but it would give better rewards without having to add a lot, give a chance to get some gear that seems to have a very small dungeon drop rate but still requires you run through a dungeon to do it. For a scaled up version it may be better than others.

If this isn't enough, start dropping various leveled and quality runes (green, blue, purple, even gold) to give folks something to use, collect, or break down.

I was just about to suggest this! I'm lucky enough to have gotten a vr12 staff of thorn (the set increases healing by 8%), and would really like to get the complete set to make my sorcerer healer more effective.

I'm busy hoping we get a VR16 version of the Thorn staff available in the Imperial City patch when the veteran dungeons are raised . The flat 5% healing bonus is an easy (and good) slot combination as the third piece with that staff otherwise, since the two-piece from just the rings is a magicka one. In the Imperial City patch, though, VR16 legendary staves will (unless they don't follow the same scaling used now) end up with around 86 spellpower higher than a VR12 drop one when factoring in the 20% spell power buff and its effect on the base stat difference. That muddies the water significantly as to whether it would still be a useful set , so my fingers are crossed that these drops are also scaled to VR16 like the Monster/Undaunted helmet and shoulder sets are.

yodased

Something that I've always wondered about:

Do people actually do the silver key run? lol.

I sure don't. I mean I'll run any dungeon at any time so maybe I actually DO run the silver pledge, but I don't actually go and get the pledge and the key etc.

I think that the gold and the silver should be the same thing with gold being the hard mode and silver being the normal run. This will at least give the opportunity to get the gold and you wont be hurt too bad if you can't finish it.

As far as the rewards, thats up to the higher ups to change it lol

P3ZZL3

yodased wrote: »

As far as the rewards, thats up to the higher ups to change it lol

Is there REALLY higher up that @ZOS_RichLambert ?

I mean sure, @ZOS_MattFiror holds the big title, but I think we all know who really rules the roost now

Preyfar

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Shunravi @yodased and other dungeon dwellers might want to add their 2 cents

As a person who runs a lot of Undaunted pledges there's zero reason to run non-vet dungeons for Silver Keys UNLESS you're trying to level Undaunted. If you've maxed out the Undaunted skill line there's zero reason to do it.