Lets Make Interactive Defensives and then DISABLE THEM!

ksimpscnub18_ESO

So I play a NB and have logged a lot of hours DC side on this toon. I try to not do the run of the mill NB builds. So increasing dodgeroll cost and no regen while blocking on a class that has no self shield and crap self heals in the current meta. You made a game with interactive defensive capabilities (dodgeroll, block, sprint) and since people cant seem to figure out how to play against say blockers or dodge rollers then you just nerf it completely?

Blocker, throw a lot of dots and CC to try and burn their pool. They obviously are sacrificing a lot of damage to be able to do that. If there are multiple people, kill the friends of the blocker because he will obviously not kill you.

Dodgeroller, use non dodgeroll abilities like ground placed AOE, beam, meteor. Again they are dodgrolling not damaging so stay on top of them and they will eventually burn themselves out. Some nice stam DKs can combo you or some nbs will combo you but if they are dodgeing they arent damaging.

I just hate how people QQ about ult gen so you just take it out of the game. YOU CREATED IT TO START WITH. so the bads cant figure out how to gen ult like everyone else? OK thats fine I get it.

This is crossing the line though. I am playing a high stam regen nb a bit more tanky (the snapping turtle i like to call it) hold up be smart and then combo people and go back to it. I am sacrificing HUGE amounts of damage for stam regen. So again, no regen stam while blocking, increase cost of dodge, a few casts of cloak, no class shield and no self heals worth a crap as stam. So I guess i just go bow? Just go magicka and spam cloak and proxy det?

This just makes no sense to me. So people QQ about time to kill being too fast. Why would you nerf defensive moves? And then to make it easy and act like you addressed problems you just slap a flat damage reduction (a very large one at that) in pvp to act like that solved issues. We are creating so many more.

I will likely quit if these changes come live. I know a lot of people feel the same as me. Help me see the light!

IxSTALKERxI

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

So I play a NB.

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

Help me see the light!

Out of all classes affected by these changes, Nb's are the least affected imo. Nightblades are such a versatile class that there are always work arounds to any proposed changes.

ToRelax

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

So I play a NB and have logged a lot of hours DC side on this toon. I try to not do the run of the mill NB builds. So increasing dodgeroll cost and no regen while blocking on a class that has no self shield and crap self heals in the current meta. You made a game with interactive defensive capabilities (dodgeroll, block, sprint) and since people cant seem to figure out how to play against say blockers or dodge rollers then you just nerf it completely?

Blocker, throw a lot of dots and CC to try and burn their pool. They obviously are sacrificing a lot of damage to be able to do that. If there are multiple people, kill the friends of the blocker because he will obviously not kill you.

Dodgeroller, use non dodgeroll abilities like ground placed AOE, beam, meteor. Again they are dodgrolling not damaging so stay on top of them and they will eventually burn themselves out. Some nice stam DKs can combo you or some nbs will combo you but if they are dodgeing they arent damaging.

I just hate how people QQ about ult gen so you just take it out of the game. YOU CREATED IT TO START WITH. so the bads cant figure out how to gen ult like everyone else? OK thats fine I get it.

This is crossing the line though. I am playing a high stam regen nb a bit more tanky (the snapping turtle i like to call it) hold up be smart and then combo people and go back to it. I am sacrificing HUGE amounts of damage for stam regen. So again, no regen stam while blocking, increase cost of dodge, a few casts of cloak, no class shield and no self heals worth a crap as stam. So I guess i just go bow? Just go magicka and spam cloak and proxy det?

This just makes no sense to me. So people QQ about time to kill being too fast. Why would you nerf defensive moves? And then to make it easy and act like you addressed problems you just slap a flat damage reduction (a very large one at that) in pvp to act like that solved issues. We are creating so many more.

I will likely quit if these changes come live. I know a lot of people feel the same as me. Help me see the light!

Did you try out Caltrops+Sipphoning Attacks?
NB will be the only class able to perma block, you know.
Besides that, I agree ^^.

themdogesbite

Oh please stop pretending that NBs ever had to make comprimises and sacrifices compareable to Templars and DKs in 1.6. And stamina regen whilst blocking... yeah i didnt like playing my DK solo anyways anymore lmao.

Bromburak

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

I am playing a high stam regen nb a bit more tanky (the snapping turtle i like to call it) hold up be smart and then combo people and go back to it. I am sacrificing HUGE amounts of damage for stam regen.

This just makes no sense to me. So people QQ about time to kill being too fast. Why would you nerf defensive moves? And then to make it easy and act like you addressed problems you just slap a flat damage reduction (a very large one at that) in pvp to act like that solved issues.

That you have a reason to play with a shield or playing a real burst DD.

If you want a defensive or last man standing type class your reg is a great trade of.
Of course this decision must sacrifice damage peaks and will have huge drops on stamina based burst while your focus is on defense.

Help me see the light!

Since classic trinity concepts are obsolete in most games you are able to play a hybrid or specialize on a specific role.

Casuals that copy builds from youtube etc.. usually all under performing because they don't understand their class. They make themselves dependent of builds without trying out other things and they have a hard time adapting other playstyles and then they wonder why they gimp them self.

Best example are the NBs that want to play burst but then skilling more reg than actually required.
Thats because they expect to perma dodge and have some fall backs just in case they panic and screw up triggers for actives. In other words they are not skilled enough to fulfill a specific role no matter what the game will offer.

DDuke

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

So I play a NB and have logged a lot of hours DC side on this toon. I try to not do the run of the mill NB builds.

Says he doesn't play run of the mill NB build.

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

I am playing a high stam regen nb a bit more tanky (the snapping turtle i like to call it) hold up be smart and then combo people and go back to it. I am sacrificing HUGE amounts of damage for stam regen.

Plays a run of the mill NB build.


Moving on:

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

Blocker, throw a lot of dots and CC to try and burn their pool. They obviously are sacrificing a lot of damage to be able to do that. If there are multiple people, kill the friends of the blocker because he will obviously not kill you.

I have come across multiple permablockers abusing CC immunity potions, immovability etc to have infinite regen, while tanking multiple people without running out of stamina (even after minutes of full DPS rotations on them).

One that stands out is a DK whom I saw tanking every single NPC at a resource (not kidding). I happened across that, turned into WW (sadly his infinite CC immunity prevented the fear combos from working) and started doing damage to him. One minute 12 seconds later, he was dead.

Not because of running out of stamina (he was blocking right until the end, un-CCable), but because he ran out of magicka to heal through my WW damage and 9-10 NPCs hitting him.

These people you'll never be able to kill in a 1v1 fight, no matter what you do.
If that sounds balanced to you, I dont know what to tell you.

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

Dodgeroller, use non dodgeroll abilities like ground placed AOE, beam, meteor. Again they are dodgrolling not damaging so stay on top of them and they will eventually burn themselves out. Some nice stam DKs can combo you or some nbs will combo you but if they are dodgeing they arent damaging.

Let's be honest, infinite roll dodging had to go. I'm saying this as a stamina NB since beta.

I don't think the ability was ever meant to be a pro-active defense that you spam, spam and spam (much like spamming dmg shields, or holding right mouse button forever), and I'm happy to see this change.

Bromburak

DDuke wrote: »

I'm saying this as a stamina NB since beta.

Imo a very painful but necessary experience.

I guess we will never forget how mechanics forced players to wear light armor and carry a stick to make everyone look like a magicka puppy. It took forever to fix core skills and synergies of this class and bringing more options to the game.

Today we finally can decide how to play. In comparison during and after beta this feels like paradise.
But this doesn't mean that we have a right turning into superman when running around with a hybrid build.

We still should make a decision what type of class including resource we want to play,
no matter if Burst Assasin , Tanky or whatever.
If we want it all without sacrificing damage or defense its not acceptable from design perspective.

ksimpscnub18_ESO

ToRelax wrote: »

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

So I play a NB and have logged a lot of hours DC side on this toon. I try to not do the run of the mill NB builds. So increasing dodgeroll cost and no regen while blocking on a class that has no self shield and crap self heals in the current meta. You made a game with interactive defensive capabilities (dodgeroll, block, sprint) and since people cant seem to figure out how to play against say blockers or dodge rollers then you just nerf it completely?

Blocker, throw a lot of dots and CC to try and burn their pool. They obviously are sacrificing a lot of damage to be able to do that. If there are multiple people, kill the friends of the blocker because he will obviously not kill you.

Dodgeroller, use non dodgeroll abilities like ground placed AOE, beam, meteor. Again they are dodgrolling not damaging so stay on top of them and they will eventually burn themselves out. Some nice stam DKs can combo you or some nbs will combo you but if they are dodgeing they arent damaging.

I just hate how people QQ about ult gen so you just take it out of the game. YOU CREATED IT TO START WITH. so the bads cant figure out how to gen ult like everyone else? OK thats fine I get it.

This is crossing the line though. I am playing a high stam regen nb a bit more tanky (the snapping turtle i like to call it) hold up be smart and then combo people and go back to it. I am sacrificing HUGE amounts of damage for stam regen. So again, no regen stam while blocking, increase cost of dodge, a few casts of cloak, no class shield and no self heals worth a crap as stam. So I guess i just go bow? Just go magicka and spam cloak and proxy det?

This just makes no sense to me. So people QQ about time to kill being too fast. Why would you nerf defensive moves? And then to make it easy and act like you addressed problems you just slap a flat damage reduction (a very large one at that) in pvp to act like that solved issues. We are creating so many more.

I will likely quit if these changes come live. I know a lot of people feel the same as me. Help me see the light!

Did you try out Caltrops+Sipphoning Attacks?
NB will be the only class able to perma block, you know.
Besides that, I agree ^^.

I have tried a build like this in the past. Interesting for sure, guess siphoning attacks is back into the meta!

ksimpscnub18_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

So I play a NB and have logged a lot of hours DC side on this toon. I try to not do the run of the mill NB builds.

Says he doesn't play run of the mill NB build.

ksimpscnub18_ESO wrote: »

I am playing a high stam regen nb a bit more tanky (the snapping turtle i like to call it) hold up be smart and then combo people and go back to it. I am sacrificing HUGE amounts of damage for stam regen.

Plays a run of the mill NB build.

I see a handful of NBs doing what I am doing currently in build set up

ksimpscnub18_ESO

The issue for me is I found the interactive defensive capabilities like dodge roll and block some of the MAIN reasons I enjoy the pvp in this game as it is not just bar v bar and we go at it. Yes, we will need to adapt like we did for 1.6 obviously but I just hate that they made a system that I rather enjoyed and then broke it down because people cant L2P.

This isnt going to give people more options it is going to pigeon hole people into one or two builds. Yea I could go magicka and spam cloak and proxy det from stealth but honestly that build is cheese and would rather not support that.

I have clearly stated that I am not running a high weap dmg build and am sacrificing considerable damage compared to other people for the ability to tank and be defensive when needed. I felt like there was not an issue with blockers. I guess a DK can block and spam molten whip hits for like 8k so that is pretty tough but we need an entire block nerf to deal with DKs?

Snit

Active defenses (dodge, block, bolt, shield, heal) are too complicated for many players. Therefore, these skills are being nerfed. The emphasis is now on a massive, always-on passive defense (battle spirit).

It's just a bit of dumbing-down for folks who aren't as keen on having to slot stuff and time when they push buttons.

(sigh)

ksimpscnub18_ESO

Snit wrote: »

Active defenses (dodge, block, bolt, shield, heal) are too complicated for many players. Therefore, these skills are being nerfed. The emphasis is now on a massive, always-on passive defense (battle spirit).

It's just a bit of dumbing-down for folks who aren't as keen on having to slot stuff and time when they push buttons.

(sigh)

lel i mean i know there are a lot of rpers and a lot of potatoes out there but cmon. This is going to make it harder for groups that are out numbered as well. Best combat system I have ever seen broken down because people learned to use it proper and now we will have even larger zergs and even less small scale fighting

ksimpscnub18_ESO

Snit wrote: »

Active defenses (dodge, block, bolt, shield, heal) are too complicated for many players. Therefore, these skills are being nerfed. The emphasis is now on a massive, always-on passive defense (battle spirit).

It's just a bit of dumbing-down for folks who aren't as keen on having to slot stuff and time when they push buttons.

(sigh)

It just blows my mind because lets compare this combat system to say something like wow or a traditional MMO.

Wow we had defensive abilities on cool down timers and offensive abilities on timers. This forced you to manage your defensive cooldowns in line with someone using an offensive or trying to use an offensive while catching someone defenseless. Even then there are active abilities that allow you to escape or evade or heal.

In ESO we do not have cool down timers so I understand everyones beef with "spamming" but like I have always said in a 5 ability bar you have at most 2 to 3 actual damaging abilities the rest are defensive or toggles or things to round out your build. We do not have 15-20 abilities like in wow so inevitably people will "spam" something to do damage and kill you. But from a combat standpoint I enjoyed that you can be versatile in how you evade damage. You can block some damages, dodge roll out of red and so forth. This nerf is going to hurt magicka builds even more than stam builds.

A sorc that is mid battle even now with say 75% of his stam bar will block an attack and dodgeroll twice in between streaks and he is nearly out of stam depending on their set up. Now they will not regen stam while blocking, will see even higher increases to dodge roll as they have a low stam pool and no reduction to dodge via medium armor and only be able to dodge roll once or twice at most, and good OOM from streaking. I agree sorcs that run away are annoying but at the same token it makes me respect the ones that stand and fight even more.

What is a magicka templar going to do now against a wrecking blow spamming nightblade or dk? He can't block that long as he will be out of stam instantly. He can dodgeroll a couple times but go out of stam. Both instances end in him getting wrecking blowed in the face and dead from executioner. Again I know it is annoying that DK and templar can hold block and have the capability to regen stamina with their abilities but honestly what else can they do? They have been given no class disengage as the sorc or NB. Those classes were given class shields as they are fighter type classes. So we nerf their ability to brawl, nerf sorc escape, buff NB cloak. I have been calling for a nb cloak fix but honestly feel there are better ways to go about fixing issues than breaking the battle mechanics that set this game apart @ZOS

Zanen

I don't know guys, I'm really not seeing these as nerfs to active defenses.

It's not as if we can't block anymore, or dodgeroll.

The end of infinite X means you've got to XYZ instead.

More active, not less.

As I've said in many other threads the nirn/mace nerfs will have a huge impact on balance that people seem to be overlooking, just because these aren't class skills doesn't mean they impact every class equally. Shields don't benefit from mitigation.

The excessive sustain people seem to think (nerfing)would better address the problem is going to be needed with the increased TTK.

The only thing I'm 100% sure about balance wise is NB tanks are going to be good next patch.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Use counters not nerfs. I have never had a problem with catching dodge roll spammers but I have good counters to dodge roll as a sorc. Inevitable detonation is available to everyone and its good if not better than curse.

I'm not sure about the other classes or how the fixes to cloak will affect the use of curse and ID on NBs. But if you need more abilities that go through dodge roll, THEN ADD THEM TO THE GAME!!!! Stop nerfing things.

Even the nerf to dragonscale could have been prevented with a single target offensive dispel spell. Same thing with shields.

This game needs more counters, and more people explaining existing counters to new players before they cry on the forums and get every useful ability and tactic nerfed.

Hears_Bright_Colors

Spamming dodge roll or holding down block is pretty much the opposite of active defense. This is a welcome change that will force people to choose what to block and what to dodge, instead of being able to dodge/block nearly everything.

ToRelax

Hears_Bright_Colors wrote: »

Spamming dodge roll or holding down block is pretty much the opposite of active defense. This is a welcome change that will force people to choose what to block and what to dodge, instead of being able to dodge/block nearly everything.

It's also a nerf to everyone already using these active defenses situational, though eventually several times in succession or for more than 2 seconds.
Besides that blocking was fine.
Investing in blocking as your main active defense mechanism already included some heavy tradeoffs.

eliisra

Snit wrote: »

Active defenses (dodge, block, bolt, shield, heal) are too complicated for many players. Therefore, these skills are being nerfed. The emphasis is now on a massive, always-on passive defense (battle spirit).

It's just a bit of dumbing-down for folks who aren't as keen on having to slot stuff and time when they push buttons.

(sigh)

Probably a bit like that lol. But in all fairness, it's also being nerfed because overall dmg is being nerfed.

You cant take 30-50% less dmg in PvP(or whatever they values will be) while keeping today's defence mechanics untouched.

I'm worried about these changes, while not even playing "perma" dodge or block builds. Even as a situational user, you will suffer.

I always have to dodge roll 2-3 times in succession to get out of AoE clusterfks when playing magicka templar or DK without mobility/escape, for example. Or take a max radius Steel Tornado zerg blob sporting Rapid Maneuvre. You cant just dodge it "once" and reactively to get enough distance. With 33% cost penalty and already limited stamina and recovery that stuff will be suicide or even impossible to avoid. Mist Form for life I guess