BoP vs BoE + Achievement-based equipability

spoqster

There seem to be two different factions in the ESO community, one supporting the BoP model and the other calling for a change to remove BoP from the game. Both factions have valid arguments.

This poll is to find out what the community thinks about one particular solution that I originally saw voiced by @Dagoth_Rac, and that I believe nicely solves the main issues for both factions.


The suggestion is to replace BoP (Bind on Pickup) by BoE (Bind on Equip), but to couple the equipability of these former BoP items to new and existing dungeon/trial achievements. That would mean that anyone can buy these items, but only people who have completed the associated content are able to actually equip those items.


Here is a simple example: Let's say the Valkyn Skoria set will be coupled to an achievement that requires you to finish the 30 min run 5 times. In this case you could buy the Valkyn Skoria pieces any time you wanted, but you wouldn't be able to equip them until you've gotten the achievement, much like you can't equip a lvl 45 item when you are lvl 40. For trials there could be multiple achievements - each of a different difficulty - that award different sets. The details would have to be fleshed out, obviously, but I see some potential for some great challenges.


Which do you prefer?

Ruben

I would keep bind on pickup, but add a trade window in the end so people can offer anyone in the instance any piece of loot they got. So maybe Bind on Instance End.

Making everything tradeable would "force" ZoS to make the best items even harder to get (like in korean MMOs where some items have a 0.00001% chance to drop).

spoqster

The suggested BoE + achievement-based equipability model

Ruben wrote: »

I would keep bind on pickup, but add a trade window in the end so people can offer anyone in the instance any piece of loot they got. So maybe Bind on Instance End.

Making everything tradeable would "force" ZoS to make the best items even harder to get (like in korean MMOs where some items have a 0.00001% chance to drop).

That is another much discussed approach and not a bad one at that. But this poll is only about the two options listed above. Maybe I'll do another poll where I'll put up the winner of this poll against your suggestion.

This poll is not about finding the absolute best solution to the problem in question, but to hear the community's thoughts on the particular solution that I suggested.

DDuke

The current BoP model

This would simply mean complete content X times & never return.

Not ideal for the long term health of a MMO, and makes it just a grind towards point X (this being the amount of times you have to run it).
Nor does it solve the "issues" these solo grinders, or whatever they call themselves have. They'd still have to do the group content to get access to the best gear (which is fine, btw, it's a MMO after all).

Some randomness is good & makes things exciting, but having no control over the loot is bad (e.g. you're in a group & player A keeps finding what player B needs & simply ends up deconstructing the item).

I'm still of the opinion that Need/Greed would solve this nicely. Need/Greed, or the loot becoming tradable for X amount of time if it can be made sure that no outside parties (people who weren't present) get access to it.

spoqster

The suggested BoE + achievement-based equipability model

DDuke wrote: »

This would simply mean complete content X times & never return.
Not ideal for the long term health of a MMO, and makes it just a grind towards point X (this being the amount of times you have to run it).

I don't think so. The replayability of the content depends on the achievement structure. I f you create an exponential achievement structure that introduces one or two extremely hard achievements for every dungeon, then the replayability would be even higher than currently.

And most importantly, opening these items up for trade will improve replayability. a) Power players are incentivized to run the dungeons over and over to earn money to purchase even more rare items. b) Casual players are less deterred by the unpredictability of the RNG, and thus potentially more inclined to do rund to get the achievements.

If done right, the BoE + equipability model will be less frustrating, because it gives players more control over the acquisition process without making making it easier to get items.

spoqster

The suggested BoE + achievement-based equipability model

DDuke wrote: »

Nor does it solve the "issues" these solo grinders, or whatever they call themselves have. They'd still have to do the group content to get access to the best gear (which is fine, btw, it's a MMO after all).

I agree that BoE + ABE would not solve the problem of the solo players.

I am torn between thinking that is alright, since ESO is an MMO and it is good to have some game mechanics that encourage players to group, but at the same time I enjoy solo play a lot and I would personally love to see a solo version of DSA. There is one quest in Reaper's March that does that, and that was a lot of fun to play!

Especially trial content can be difficult to get from an organizational perspective. I am in a good guild, and it is a lot of fun to run trials with my guild mates, but I have very little time to play and hardly ever at those times when beginner raids are organized. So while I have been in the top tier of the leaderboards a couple of times (all thanks to my guildmates, I had nothing to do with it), looking back at the past year I only got 3 trials items in total - simply because I don't have the flexibility to do the runs at the organized times.

Biiiiiii

The suggested BoE + achievement-based equipability model

That solution seems good

maryriv

The suggested BoE + achievement-based equipability model

I like the idea of achiemvent based because it means you did the thing at least ONCE but you don't have to do it a billion times and get NOTHING. You can actually trade for the exact one you want.

Very good idea!

maryriv

The suggested BoE + achievement-based equipability model

DDuke wrote: »

This would simply mean complete content X times & never return.

Not ideal for the long term health of a MMO, and makes it just a grind towards point X (this being the amount of times you have to run it).
Nor does it solve the "issues" these solo grinders, or whatever they call themselves have. They'd still have to do the group content to get access to the best gear (which is fine, btw, it's a MMO after all).

Some randomness is good & makes things exciting, but having no control over the loot is bad (e.g. you're in a group & player A keeps finding what player B needs & simply ends up deconstructing the item).

I'm still of the opinion that Need/Greed would solve this nicely. Need/Greed, or the loot becoming tradable for X amount of time if it can be made sure that no outside parties (people who weren't present) get access to it.

This is false. I have achieved my helmet so I will not do it again. Why? Because I will get helmets that my friends and party members need and have to decon it.

With BoE I would do it all day every day helping everyone who needed or wanted one because I could just trade them mine if I get one.

Emma_Overload

Didn't vote because the 2nd option is way too complicated and won't solve all the problems BoP creates. Just make everything BoE and no one will complain anymore after a week or two. Once the BoP snobs figure out they can make millions of gold from their hand-me-down loot, they'll quit their crying.

lolo_01b16_ESO

The current BoP model

I think your idea is much too complicated. I'll just give you three things to think about:
1. Archivements are bound to character and not account wide. So I would have to run a dungeon again on my alt even tough I did it 100 times on my main char?
2. If you're lucky and get some gear on your first try, would you get a message like "you can't use that item without completing this dungeon 5 times"? Sounds very frustrating to me.
3. What about the gear you get as pvp rewards. It is the same gear that drops in trials, so how would you manage that?

The change I'd like to see to the current system is to allow swapping gear in the dungeon with your group members.

NewBlacksmurf

The current BoP model

Some things should only be avilable to those who are in the encounter who get the drop while others can be more open.

If everything is BoE, then what's the point of doing the encounters. Just buy it

Which then causes ppl to complain about not being able to sell stuff outside of a guild or that a few guilds are controlling the market.

maryriv

The suggested BoE + achievement-based equipability model

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Didn't vote because the 2nd option is way too complicated and won't solve all the problems BoP creates. Just make everything BoE and no one will complain anymore after a week or two. Once the BoP snobs figure out they can make millions of gold from their hand-me-down loot, they'll quit their crying.

I totally agree, BoP is a very bad idea. No one has any actual good arguments for keeping it.

Rook_Master

The current BoP model

Achievements tied to equipment doesn't sound good to me.

Some achievements are extremely grindy, and I want to transfer gear to an alt that hasn't completed that content.

maryriv

The suggested BoE + achievement-based equipability model

Rook_Master wrote: »

Achievements tied to equipment doesn't sound good to me.

Some achievements are extremely grindy, and I want to transfer gear to an alt that hasn't completed that content.

The achievement would be to have done the objective to get the item.

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO

I think there is already too much gear that is BOE. All dungeon bosses should drop parts of sets that are BOP only and can only be gotten by doing the dungeons. Same for the pledge chests...it should all be BOP. This would at least give the game some kind of progression for your character gear wise.

maryriv

The suggested BoE + achievement-based equipability model

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO wrote: »

I think there is already too much gear that is BOE. All dungeon bosses should drop parts of sets that are BOP only and can only be gotten by doing the dungeons. Same for the pledge chests...it should all be BOP. This would at least give the game some kind of progression for your character gear wise.

Another illogical, incoherent "argument".

Saturn

I highly doubt they will change the current Bind on Pickup bs nor add a trait-swapping system to stop us from having to grind for a specific piece. I mean the replayability at the moment comes from the gear grind, since there has not been added any actual content since Undaunted and CoA six months ago. I have personally done every dungeon in the game about thirty times and more, but I still don't have the exact pieces I want because they either have a low drop chance or because the loot-table includes every trait and armour type version. For example I am still running with a freaking Sturdy Light Valkyn Skoria hat that I got about 4 months ago and I have not been able to find a better version since.

That being said I think ZOS might be more inclined to implementing a system sort of similar to what WoW ended up doing, i.e. every BoP item you find in a dungeon or trial could be traded to group members within three hours after completion, which honestly would alleviate the majority of these problems (at least for me) since it seems like my friends always get the pieces that I want and I get what they want.

I also did not use your poll since it is quite limited:
Do you like A?
No.
Do you like this very specific B that is essentially the OP's personal opinon?
No..

Polls should be way more inclusive, since otherwise it is just really onesided and does not offer any other possible solutions. I personally think an achievement system tied in with the BoE would be confusing and probably not simple to implement to the entire game.

maryriv

The suggested BoE + achievement-based equipability model

Saturn wrote: »

I highly doubt they will change the current Bind on Pickup bs nor add a trait-swapping system to stop us from having to grind for a specific piece. I mean the replayability at the moment comes from the gear grind, since there has not been added any actual content since Undaunted and CoA six months ago. I have personally done every dungeon in the game about thirty times and more, but I still don't have the exact pieces I want because they either have a low drop chance or because the loot-table includes every trait and armour type version. For example I am still running with a freaking Sturdy Light Valkyn Skoria hat that I got about 4 months ago and I have not been able to find a better version since.

That being said I think ZOS might be more inclined to implementing a system sort of similar to what WoW ended up doing, i.e. every BoP item you find in a dungeon or trial could be traded to group members within three hours after completion, which honestly would alleviate the majority of these problems (at least for me) since it seems like my friends always get the pieces that I want and I get what they want.

I also did not use your poll since it is quite limited:
Do you like A?
No.
Do you like this very specific B that is essentially the OP's personal opinon?
No..

Polls should be way more inclusive, since otherwise it is just really onesided and does not offer any other possible solutions. I personally think an achievement system tied in with the BoE would be confusing and probably not simple to implement to the entire game.

While I agree with you mostly, if you or they think BoP is making people replay you are both mistaken. BoE would make me replay, BoP makes people either

A. Get frustrated and stop trying

or

B. Get their helm or shoulder they want and have zero reason to do it again.

If you make gear BoE then I will do it again and again helping whoever needs it because I can trade or sell any helms or shoulders etc that I get.

Elloa

The current BoP model

Loot hunting is for a lot of player the ESSENCE of the game and the VERY REASON why they play it. If they have no gear to farm, they are not doing said content anymore.

As I want to be sure players including those that are not playing for fun, but playing for gear, have a great reason and motivation to come back to the game, again....and again...and again...and again.

Beside I think there is enough gear BOE in the game, including very interesting sets to be sold, exchanged, given away like that. I think its very important to keep some rare loot exclusively BOP.
Also, we have really great crafting gear. Those that do not want to farm have enough alternative to gear themselves up.

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO

maryriv wrote: »

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO wrote: »

I think there is already too much gear that is BOE. All dungeon bosses should drop parts of sets that are BOP only and can only be gotten by doing the dungeons. Same for the pledge chests...it should all be BOP. This would at least give the game some kind of progression for your character gear wise.

Another illogical, incoherent "argument".

Actually it makes perfect sense. If everything in the game is BOE, then people will just buy the gear. If everyone just buys it, then why do the dungeons? In the end the game will suffer as everyone has the best gear and would not have to grind for it and people will stop playing. You need to earn the gear. BOP makes the most sense.

Tankqull

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO wrote: »

maryriv wrote: »

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO wrote: »

I think there is already too much gear that is BOE. All dungeon bosses should drop parts of sets that are BOP only and can only be gotten by doing the dungeons. Same for the pledge chests...it should all be BOP. This would at least give the game some kind of progression for your character gear wise.

Another illogical, incoherent "argument".

Actually it makes perfect sense. If everything in the game is BOE, then people will just buy the gear. If everyone just buys it, then why do the dungeons? In the end the game will suffer as everyone has the best gear and would not have to grind for it and people will stop playing. You need to earn the gear. BOP makes the most sense.

because someone has to sell it. the items with the correct trait and armor type do not fall from the sky.
add in a sytem of gear erosion and open all sets to all armor types with random trait evoila perfect incentive(items are going to be destroyed) you may have to look a while for the set in the armor type and with the trait you want. and someone who is into raiding has to farm the items.
perfect for everybody.