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Tanking with the LT - How Armor Values Work in 1.6 for Tanks

Personofsecrets
Personofsecrets
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Greetings everyone. I saw a few people talking about how armor works and what kind of damage mitigation they could get for their armor. For this reason I am pleased to present the following graphic.

Az1O4sK.jpg

What I did was harass a lonely troll while I changed my armor values in order to find out what kind of damage mitigation I could expect to get. What I learned from this is that the percentage of damage mitigation you get from your armor value is close to .0015 times your armor value. This has some interesting implications that I note in the following graphic.

iWqEDPx.jpg

With higher costs, proportionally to resource respective resource pools, on skills like Inner Rage it is tempting to go for infused on gear. Let's say that we choose to take infused over reinforced. In the case of the image we would gain 336 health and 127 stamina. That is fine, but in the terms of patch 1.5 those stats would be very tiny. What we gain by not having infused is 1459 extra armor. By finding the % damage mitigation of 1459 armor we can theory craft a little bit. Let's say that we test our 1459 armor (2.2% mitigation) against a certain mantikora. The monstrous physical damage of that specific creature is so great that 2.2% damage mitigation can cause net resource gains compared to the resource gains from having infused.

Let's briefly think about skills.

P71csiu.jpg

What skill should we use? Well, it depends the fight. Major Ward from Hardened armor can give us about 7.7% damage mitigation. Heroic Slash can give an enemy Minor Maim and prevent 15% of the enemies damage. At a steep cost, Ring of Preservation can reduce the damage we take by 8% with a minor ward buff. These could all stack with each other and prevent quite a bit of incoming damage, but remember you only have so many skill spots so pick what is best for the content you are doing and has the best group synergies. Don't forget that diminishing returns on mitigation effect the tank more than the rest of the group.

Finally, I must comment on the implications of switching from infused to reinforced. Many people put good effort into building their dream setup. As you see, I've put effort into re-crafting gear I already have because I now want to use the reinforced trait. This only cost me a 100k or so which is a ton of gold to some people, but small potatoes compared to the following.

guk2RI3.jpg

I know that I've heard one goal of the ESO R&D is to have players feel good with the end game gear that they achieve. It would be hard to find a single thing that has made players collectively feel worse than the current situation with randomly rolled traits on uncraftable gear. It is rare to complete VDSA or an Undaunted pledge and have someone excited for getting just what they needed and this is because of the random trait roles and random armor type roles. It is about time that this system is changed and that players can progress their gear and game play with trait changes.

I invite everyone to comment and especially point out errors that I may have made.

Check out Tanking with the LT - champion points and block cost reduction!

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/158960/tanking-with-the-lt-champion-points-and-block-cost-reduction-for-tanking.
Edited by Personofsecrets on July 9, 2015 2:10AM
Don't tank

"In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
  • Mos-De-Atmo
    Mos-De-Atmo
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    Nice testing, thanks! I agree that some kind of trait change would be good to see, perhaps tied to crafting level or traits researched?
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  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    Nice testing, thanks! I agree that some kind of trait change would be good to see, perhaps tied to crafting level or traits researched?

    Sure thing. It also doesn't necessarily have to be easy to do. I think the goal of development should be people completing content because it is enjoyable, not because they are after something that has a degenerate drop rate.
    Don't tank

    "In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
  • Tabre
    Tabre
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    Excellent information! I re-crafted several pieces to hit that 30,000 physical resist mark, and noted a significant improvement in my tanking. Thanks for the help, LT!
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  • Jitterbug
    Jitterbug
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    Where does your research leave tanking with 5 pieces of light / 2 heavy?
  • Hogzknuckle
    Jitterbug wrote: »
    Where does your research leave tanking with 5 pieces of light / 2 heavy?
    If I'm looking for a tank for my group and you come with 5 pieces of light armor, I am still going to need a tank. My opinion, but hey, hope that works out for you and your group.
  • Jitterbug
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    Jitterbug wrote: »
    Where does your research leave tanking with 5 pieces of light / 2 heavy?
    If I'm looking for a tank for my group and you come with 5 pieces of light armor, I am still going to need a tank. My opinion, but hey, hope that works out for you and your group.

    Thanks for the completely jaded response, but that wasn't at all what I was asking...
  • Tabre
    Tabre
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    Jitterbug wrote: »
    Where does your research leave tanking with 5 pieces of light / 2 heavy?

    I've seen a Templar in 7 pieces of light armor tank Praxin and everything after in Spindle Clutch, which I find impressive, however, I just don't see anyone doing main tank on end-game content like VDSA or SO with anything more than 2 pieces of light. I could be wrong and I would absolutely love to see someone prove me wrong (because that would be amazing)... or ATTEMPT to prove me wrong (because that would be funny). :smile:
    "You sleep rather soundly for a murderer. That's good. You'll need a clear conscience for what I'm about to propose."
  • Bfish22090
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    Great setup! Would you go reduced cost of block/bash enchantment on jewlery or increase armor now?
  • Clutch
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    You could probably get away with tanking in light assuming you're using armor increase values for your armor pieces as well as skills. Blur's Morph (armor amplification) coupled with say Momentum or something as a Nord tends to push some high numbers. Granted I use heavy because I've been on a The Hound binge who makes Heavy Armor look sweet! That being said, wearing majority of heavy gear will just give you higher rating regardless so it depends on the encounter I suppose and how it scales.
  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    Jitterbug wrote: »
    Where does your research leave tanking with 5 pieces of light / 2 heavy?

    Something like the Axes in AA, the Warriors 1000 cuts, or the Manticora Hemorhage makes tanking with light armor, imo, not viable. Not only is there less damage mitigation, but you also lose Bracing, the second most powerful effect for reducing the cost of blocking.

    I did try Warlock/histbark (2 pieces of light overall) against the Warrior and Manticora. Warrior was doing an uncomfortable amount of damage and Manticoras bleed + attack combo was killing me similarly to a one-shot.
    Tabre wrote: »
    Excellent information! I re-crafted several pieces to hit that 30,000 physical resist mark, and noted a significant improvement in my tanking. Thanks for the help, LT!

    Thanks!
    Don't tank

    "In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
  • SafiyerAmitora
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    Hmm... Just wondering, what were you using to test this? 'Cause I was trying to figure out why in the world I was getting .012 instead of .0015 when comparing two different armor setups (though in my total stupidity I was doing this with ALL pieces purple, but one set was 6 reinforced/2 divines and the other was 4 infused/4 divines (yeah... calculating with different traits... stupid, I know)). Then I realized that 1.) reinforced and 2.) the fact that I was trying it with 5 Hist (2pc offers armor)/5 Footman (3pc and 4pc offer armor/spell resist and 5pc offers 12% mitigation)/2 Seducer might have messed with that. Not to mention Champion points involving armor or spell resist. What exactly did you use for this? Just kinda getting confused with the difference in calculations and all.

    Also... *sigh* The joys of having footman; only traits available are divines or exploration. :(
    Edited by SafiyerAmitora on March 21, 2015 6:36AM
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  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    Hmm... Just wondering, what were you using to test this? 'Cause I was trying to figure out why in the world I was getting .012 instead of .0015 when comparing two different armor setups (though in my total stupidity I was doing this with ALL pieces purple, but one set was 6 reinforced/2 divines and the other was 4 infused/4 divines (yeah... calculating with different traits... stupid, I know)). Then I realized that 1.) reinforced and 2.) the fact that I was trying it with 5 Hist (2pc offers armor)/5 Footman (3pc and 4pc offer armor/spell resist and 5pc offers 12% mitigation)/2 Seducer might have messed with that. Not to mention Champion points involving armor or spell resist. What exactly did you use for this? Just kinda getting confused with the difference in calculations and all.

    Hello SafiyerAmitora. What I did is the following.

    1. I started by equipping a sword and shield and then blocked a trolls light attack. I assumed that the starting armor of 42 was so low that it mitigation was negligible or 0.
    2. I equipped a piece of armor. blocked a new attack. noted the new damage that i took.
    3. I repeated step 2 some number of times. I made sure not to use the footman because of the 12% damage reduction. I forget the exact armor and jewelry that I used, but it shouldn't matter.
    4. I found the % difference in damage taken at each armor value. Remember, I assumed 42 armor to give no damage mitigation. This % difference is the % of damage blocked.
    5. I constructed a graph to show my data points. In the way I constructed the graph, it literally shows the %damage mitigation you get per armor point that you have.
    6. The data points appear to give a diagonal line and the equation for diagonal lines is y=mx + b. Y is % damage mitigation. X is an armor value. M is some factor that we can find with rise over run. b turns out to be a very small negligible number. Overall % damage reduction = some factor (.0015) times the armor value.

    I hope this helped. If you can't get the same value as me, then it is possible I have done something incorrect or, like you write, there is some other factor that wasn't accounted for. There are so many passive effects that one could have slipped my mind. Regardless, I am confident that my multiplier is close to being the right number, but please let me know if you still find a different value.

    Also please comment on my other current tanking thread and send me a message if there is something you'd like to see me write on.

    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/158960/tanking-with-the-lt-champion-points-and-block-cost-reduction-for-tanking.

    Edit: Additionally, the traits you use to test or your mundus stone shouldn't matter. I did do this entire test while blocking attacks. Perhaps you are not blocking with a shield? It could also be that I had defensive posture on my bar and that will mitigate some damage. I will have to go back and see if that was the case or not - hopefully I wasn't so foolish. Maybe there is an alliance bonus that you had, I honestly am not sure about those bonuses x_x.
    Edited by Personofsecrets on March 21, 2015 7:01AM
    Don't tank

    "In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
  • spoqster
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    Thanks a lot for the work! I personally would prefer if BoP were removed and the items made tradeable instead of a trait change.
    Edited by spoqster on March 21, 2015 6:59AM
  • DeLindsay
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    Jitterbug wrote: »
    Jitterbug wrote: »
    Where does your research leave tanking with 5 pieces of light / 2 heavy?
    If I'm looking for a tank for my group and you come with 5 pieces of light armor, I am still going to need a tank. My opinion, but hey, hope that works out for you and your group.

    Thanks for the completely jaded response, but that wasn't at all what I was asking...
    Pre-1.6 there was a Sorc who made a video Tanking VDSA successfully. That Sorc iirc had also Tanked some Trial content as well. Post 1.6 we will probably have to wait until Players are deeper into the CS before 5 LA / 2 HA becomes the norm again. Once Players have so many points in Block cost reduction, Light Armor Focus, Stamina cost reduction, Stamina regen, etc I can 100% guarantee people will be Tanking in LA again as you'll be able to hit Hard Cap while also having Block not cost a fortune. Don't listen to people like @Hogzknucle they really have no idea what they're talking about.

  • SafiyerAmitora
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    Edit: Additionally, the traits you use to test or your mundus stone shouldn't matter. I did do this entire test while blocking attacks. Perhaps you are not blocking with a shield? It could also be that I had defensive posture on my bar and that will mitigate some damage. I will have to go back and see if that was the case or not - hopefully I wasn't so foolish. Maybe there is an alliance bonus that you had, I honestly am not sure about those bonuses x_x.

    Thanks for your response; rest assured, it did help. :) Yes, I blocked each attack with a shield, but I didn't have absorb magic (I chose the other morph) on my bar, so that could be part of it. Another thing I thought of was, you were testing this with a DK, right? I was testing all this with my DK, and there's this one passive, Iron Skin, that blocks an additional 10% dmg. Another example of a factor that would need accounting for, I suppose. I was in my home campaign while testing and it was all yellow (and I'm AD), so I had all the buffs from that.

    I'd love to take a look at the thread, thanks! :smiley:
    Edited by SafiyerAmitora on March 21, 2015 7:52AM
    Legend || Mizery Records || Black Market Wares
    Aeilith ~ AD L50 Khajiit magicka NB dps/max crafter (NA)
    Naraiya ~ AD L50 Altmer magicka Sorc dps (NA)
    Dont Die Like I Did ~ DC L50 Khajiit magicka Templar heals (NA)
    Bring The Pain ~ AD L50 Dunmer magicka DK tank (NA)
    An Achílles Heal ~ AD L50 Breton magicka Templar heals (NA)
    One Two Gank A Few ~ EP L50 Bosmer stam NB dps (NA)
    Your Lást Mistáke ~ DC L50 Altmer magicka NB dps (NA)
    Rekts All Noobs ~ DC L50 Redguard stam DK dps (NA)
    Reaper of Salt ~ EP L50 Khajiit stam Sorc dps
    The Réktoning ~ AD L8 Dunmer magicka DK dps
    Avaraiya ~ AD L25 Altmer magicka Warden tank
    Nafatiri ~ EP L24 Argonian magicka Warden heals
    Once Upon An OP Magden ~ EP L3 Altmer magicka Warden dps (NA)
    Updated: 08/01/2018
    ***
    759 Champion Points || ESO Member since Apr 2014
  • ArnoTerranova
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    Cheers for the good work, your post is very helpful and I was asking myself if there was a "cap" to reach for armor / damage mitigation and I see that there is no cap but a y=ax + (a small b) curve.

    your gear testing was very helpful as well, I noticed myself the reinforced/infused traits are ideal for tanks.

    I would like to ask you your opinion about having some armor pieces with other traits, like the "Divine" trait.
    Do you have such, and if yes, which bonus do you consider most interesting? (for instance, I tried to get some additional Armor using Mundus stone, but I am not sure if this is truly efficient).(would like to test but I can't log in game now).

    Best,

    Arno

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  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
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    Cheers for the good work, your post is very helpful and I was asking myself if there was a "cap" to reach for armor / damage mitigation and I see that there is no cap but a y=ax + (a small b) curve.

    your gear testing was very helpful as well, I noticed myself the reinforced/infused traits are ideal for tanks.

    I would like to ask you your opinion about having some armor pieces with other traits, like the "Divine" trait.
    Do you have such, and if yes, which bonus do you consider most interesting? (for instance, I tried to get some additional Armor using Mundus stone, but I am not sure if this is truly efficient).(would like to test but I can't log in game now).

    Best,

    Arno

    to the best of my knowledge the reinforced trait gives more armor, even on small pieces of armor, than the lady stone will give thanks to the divine trait.

    The difference is negligible and, for pve, only really matters when picking out what pieces of footman armor you want.
    Don't tank

    "In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
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