The Champion System: Its Problems and a Proposed Solution

Jando

The Problems With Champion System:

1. The system is an endless grind because each point is too expensive (in xp), each point is too weak in what it offers, and there are too many points in total.

2. The conversion of VR level to Champion points is fundamentally flawed because it fails to consider completed quest content. As such, there is no way for many Veteran players to participate in the system because they have exhausted the quest content that grants the chunks of xp needed to advance in the system.

3. There's too much inconsistency in the way that XP is gained and therefore the way that CP's are granted. This, coupled with the other problems, forces players to endlessly grind PVE mobs to maximize CP gain.

4. The team that designed the Champion System has failed if their goal was to replace Veteran Ranks with a system that felt less grindy and caused less player separation. The Champion System is much worse that the VR system in both respects.

The bottom line is that it's too slow to be engaging or even fun

A Proposed Solution

I think the Champion System would be quite fun, engaging, even addictive if they made the following changes:

1. Reduced the number of Champion Points from 3600 to 1200. This reduction in total number of points would make each point feel more powerful and exciting.

2. Reduce the cost of each CP to somewhere between 10,000 -20,000 XP - not accounting for enlightenment. Why 10-20K xp per CP? If you take the total number of XP needed to go from VR1 to VR14 (13,000,000 xp), and divide that by 1,200 - the total number of Champion Points I propose - you get: 10,833. I believe the amount of time it takes to "max your character out" in the VR system is an appropriate amount of xp to base the Champion System on.

In short, I am proposing that they break up the current Veteran Rank progression - which we all know feels horribly grindy and unrewarding - into 1200 micro installments, each a Champion Point. Champion Points might also be given out as rewards for completing certain in-game goals in PVP and PVE content. At the end of the system your character is a "Champion of Tamriel".

I see nothing wrong with the fact that it would be relatively easy for people to become a Champion. In fact, that's exactly what I am going for. I do not want an endless system. Endless systems are not viable because they also have to be worthless in order to avoid extensive player separation. I would rather have a system that I can complete in a reasonable amount of time, one that is constantly rewarding me with powerful passives, and that pushes me to become a Champion. This will also have the added benefit of reducing player separation which will allow developers to properly balance end-game content.

Will there still be “grinders” that burn through the system in a couple of days or a week? Yes, but if that’s what they want to do, then so be it. *Edit* Based on some feedback in this thread, it makes sense that there might be a cap on the daily Champion Point gain. A very high cap, like 50-100 a day to keep the grinders reasonably in check makes sense to me.

Should this system be account wide? I haven’t made up my mind yet. I’m leaning towards no.

Is it too late to make the change? No.

For those people that think I am "missing the point" of the Champion System because it is supposed to support a revenue model based on ESO+ Subs and XP Booster Sales, I say "shame on you for supporting the grind". Instead, the revenue model for the game should be based on sales of reasonably priced new PVE and PVP content, player services like: barbershop, race changes, alliance transfers (limited of course), and some limited items that are purely for convenience like: inventory upgrades, mount leveling, and research boosters.

BugCollector

A cap at 100 Champion points would be good, so to prevent grinders from becoming better than other players. Players should be better than other players cause of skill, not CP points.

Jinkins

Great idea

Lionxoft

Or attach them to feats/achievements associated with excelling at end game content. I think the base of the flawed system is that it's based on XP as a method of gaining points. Simply lowering the cost of a point doesn't fix the problem.

Chesimac

BugCollector wrote: »

A cap at 100 Champion points would be good, so to prevent grinders from becoming better than other players. Players should be better than other players cause of skill, not CP points.

This is a little extreme.. A lot of people have already gotten past 100 lol so this change would be too radical

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

The Problems With Champion System:

1. The system is an endless grind because each point is too expensive (in xp), each point is too weak in what it offers, and there are too many points in total.

2. The conversion of VR level to Champion points is fundamentally flawed because it fails to consider completed quest content. As such, there is no way for many Veteran players to participate in the system because they have exhausted the quest content that grants the chunks of xp needed to advance in the system.

3. There's too much inconsistency in the way that XP is gained and therefore the way that CP's are granted. This, coupled with the other problems, forces players to endlessly grind PVE mobs to maximize CP gain.

4. The team that designed the Champion System has failed if their goal was to replace Veteran Ranks with a system that felt less grindy and caused less player separation. The Champion System is much worse that the VR system in both respects.

The bottom line is that it's too slow to be engaging or even fun

A Proposed Solution

I think the Champion System would be quite fun, engaging, even addictive if they made the following changes:

1. Reduced the number of Champion Points from 3600 to 1200. This reduction in total number of points would make each point feel more powerful and exciting.

2. Reduce the cost of each CP to somewhere between 10,000 -20,000 XP - not accounting for enlightenment. Why 10-20K xp per CP? If you take the total number of XP needed to go from VR1 to VR14 (13,000,000 xp), and divide that by 1,200 - the total number of Champion Points I propose - you get: 10,833. I believe the amount of time it takes to "max your character out" in the VR system is an appropriate amount of xp to base the Champion System on.

In short, I am proposing that they break up the current Veteran Rank progression - which we all know feels horribly grindy and unrewarding - into 1200 micro installments, each a Champion Point. Champion Points might also be given out as rewards for completing certain in-game goals in PVP and PVE content. At the end of the system your character is a "Champion of Tamriel".

I see nothing wrong with the fact that it would be relatively easy for people to become a Champion. In fact, that's exactly what I am going for. I do not want an endless system. Endless systems are not viable because they also have to be worthless in order to avoid extensive player separation. I would rather have a system that I can complete in a reasonable amount of time, one that is constantly rewarding me with powerful passives, and that pushes me to become a Champion. This will also have the added benefit of reducing player separation which will allow developers to properly balance end-game content.

Will there still be “grinders” that burn through the system in a couple of days or a week? Yes, but if that’s what they want to do, then so be it.

Should this system be account wide? I haven’t made up my mind yet. I’m leaning towards no.

Is it too late to make the change? No.

For those people that think I am "missing the point" of the Champion System because it is supposed to support a revenue model based on ESO+ Subs and XP Booster Sales, I say "shame on you for supporting the grind". Instead, the revenue model for the game should be based on sales of reasonably priced new PVE and PVP content, player services like: barbershop, race changes, alliance transfers (limited of course), and some limited items that are purely for convenience like: inventory upgrades, mount leveling, and research boosters.

This is an awesome idea, you can tell this is very well thought out
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno

Ysne58

1. Max out the number of cp a player can get in a day to 4 or 5 as a temporary hot fix. Until this balance thing can be figured out, this issue is that big.
2. Let people start getting cp gain at level 1 so that new players can feel like they will catch up at some point.
3. How are they going to manage to remove vet levels? I just can see a fair way to do it.

Jando

BugCollector wrote: »

A cap at 100 Champion points would be good, so to prevent grinders from becoming better than other players. Players should be better than other players cause of skill, not CP points.

I like the idea of some kind of daily cap of CP granted. This will help limit the grinders. But I think it should be pretty high. If people want to grind it out...then so be it.

Ysne58

Grinding should be a viable option. I do see lots of people complaining that it's not.

Also, exp gain in PvP seems to be uneven at best. I don't PvP so I don't have first hand knowledge of that.

I'd like to see inspiration gain go toward cp gain as well, but that probably won't help most vets who have all crafting skills maxed out.

Chesimac

Ysne58 wrote: »

Grinding should be a viable option. I do see lots of people complaining that it's not.

Also, exp gain in PvP seems to be uneven at best. I don't PvP so I don't have first hand knowledge of that.

I'd like to see inspiration gain go toward cp gain as well, but that probably won't help most vets who have all crafting skills maxed out.

PVP xp is ridiculously slow compared to any pve content

Jando

Ysne58 wrote: »

1. Max out the number of cp a player can get in a day to 4 or 5 as a temporary hot fix. Until this balance thing can be figured out, this issue is that big.
2. Let people start getting cp gain at level 1 so that new players can feel like they will catch up at some point.
3. How are they going to manage to remove vet levels? I just can see a fair way to do it.

I think 4 or 5 per day is way too low. I was thinking closer to 100. That means it would take a minimum of 12 days in my proposed system to max it out. Who knows maybe it should be more.

Having Champion points start at level 1 is interesting. Hmm...but maybe just for accounts where you have at least 1 Champion already?

removing vet levels is an entirely separate discussion

Jando

Lionxoft wrote: »

Or attach them to feats/achievements associated with excelling at end game content. I think the base of the flawed system is that it's based on XP as a method of gaining points. Simply lowering the cost of a point doesn't fix the problem.

I absolutely agree. I think Champion points should also be given out for PVP and PVE accomplishments: capturing keeps, Completing Pledges, Achievements, Trials, Major Quest Rewards.

Jando

Ysne58 wrote: »

Grinding should be a viable option. I do see lots of people complaining that it's not.

Also, exp gain in PvP seems to be uneven at best. I don't PvP so I don't have first hand knowledge of that.

I'd like to see inspiration gain go toward cp gain as well, but that probably won't help most vets who have all crafting skills maxed out.

I'm also not a big PVP'er but from what i hear, that issue needs to be addressed as well.

Inspiration Gain? Sure! I'm sure someone can figure out a fair way to handle it.

Morshire

Most of the OP I can agree with. There should be some form of regulating CP gains. But daily caps and the like seem to restrictive. Wouldn't it be better if we could on get say 360. Period. Then when they released new DLC, they could lift it to 720. (Or some lower or higher number) This would let the grinders get there points quickly so they can get back to doing what they want to do, but they wouldn't be so far ahead that others couldn't catch up. The daily cap would actually frustrate me, as a casual player. I have no problem with people being ahead of me, but when I do get time off, I game and try to catch up to people. This would limit my ability to catch up because of the daily limit. (3600 points ahead just seems daunting, but I believe that players who play more, be it grinding or whatever, deserve to have their efforts reflected) The daily limit hurts the casual player:

John Grinder - Plays every day and gets the max CP everyday. (4 to whatever)
Me - Only can play 2-3 days a week for 10 hours each day. (still only getting 4-whatever a day)

One months time
John G. (4 CP x 30 days = 120CP)
Me (4 CP x 10 days = 40)

Next month is worse, John G. has 240, I have 80. See where I am going? If, we had smaller portions of CP, then John G. may get to that 360 in two weeks, but on my days off, I might be able to grind out 10-20 CP each of those days.

One months time
John G (360 cause he raced through)
Me (100-200)

Second month
John G. (Still at 360 and happily doing other things)
Me (200-360)

Now we have gotten to the ceiling, we both are relatively equal, PVP isn't a slaughter house, John and I run dungeons, etc. Then 4 or 5 months, when new DLC comes out, we rinse and repeat, then go and explore the expansion. Win/win in my books, and never is that gap insurmountable.

As it stands, John G. will max out the CP in say 3 months, I will get frustrated, hack is IP, and go and wipe his account. But even that would still hurt me, cause then he would just do it again in 3.5 months and I still won't have caught up. (All of that is just a joke, so if your name is really John Grinder - well change your name cause it is dumb - and then forgive me as I was being dumb)

Jando

Morshire wrote: »

Most of the OP I can agree with. There should be some form of regulating CP gains. But daily caps and the like seem to restrictive. Wouldn't it be better if we could on get say 360. Period. Then when they released new DLC, they could lift it to 720. (Or some lower or higher number) This would let the grinders get there points quickly so they can get back to doing what they want to do, but they wouldn't be so far ahead that others couldn't catch up. The daily cap would actually frustrate me, as a casual player. I have no problem with people being ahead of me, but when I do get time off, I game and try to catch up to people. This would limit my ability to catch up because of the daily limit. (3600 points ahead just seems daunting, but I believe that players who play more, be it grinding or whatever, deserve to have their efforts reflected) The daily limit hurts the casual player:

John Grinder - Plays every day and gets the max CP everyday. (4 to whatever)
Me - Only can play 2-3 days a week for 10 hours each day. (still only getting 4-whatever a day)

One months time
John G. (4 CP x 30 days = 120CP)
Me (4 CP x 10 days = 40)

Next month is worse, John G. has 240, I have 80. See where I am going? If, we had smaller portions of CP, then John G. may get to that 360 in two weeks, but on my days off, I might be able to grind out 10-20 CP each of those days.

One months time
John G (360 cause he raced through)
Me (100-200)

Second month
John G. (Still at 360 and happily doing other things)
Me (200-360)

Now we have gotten to the ceiling, we both are relatively equal, PVP isn't a slaughter house, John and I run dungeons, etc. Then 4 or 5 months, when new DLC comes out, we rinse and repeat, then go and explore the expansion. Win/win in my books, and never is that gap insurmountable.

As it stands, John G. will max out the CP in say 3 months, I will get frustrated, hack is IP, and go and wipe his account. But even that would still hurt me, cause then he would just do it again in 3.5 months and I still won't have caught up. (All of that is just a joke, so if your name is really John Grinder - well change your name cause it is dumb - and then forgive me as I was being dumb)

Thanks for the comment. But, I am proposing a system that only has 1200 CP's in total. With a cap of say 100 per day, i don't think you have to really worry much about falling too far behind.

The fundamental difference is that in my proposed system, people are actually meant to finish it. It's based on the approximate progression time of the current VR system.

Xjcon

Why do people play mmo's? I play a mmo so I can get to the end game and play the end game content. That is exactly what I did till 1.6, The system itself is ok, the rate you get the points is ridiculous. I don't want to play an mmo to simply gain a small point once in awhile, I want to cap out and play challenging content, what ZOS has done is put in place a very long grind with no new content. I and many others now feel like it's pointless, The folks I played with pre 1.6 have started playing FF14. I would have to say this is an epic fail on ZOS part. And it remains to be seen if people will lose interest and move on faster then ever.

I hate to bash the hard work the folks at ZOS put in to this but if they thought a simple grind for points was going to help their game I think they failed to understand the people willing to play an mmo.

The solution to this mess is to expedite some new content, give the players something to work for, new gear sets to improve players builds. With this will come the want for shiny things, as it stands now I will log on grind for a small amount of time get bored and log off.

GG ZOS,

Morshire

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

Thanks for the comment. But, I am proposing a system that only has 1200 CP's in total. With a cap of say 100 per day, i don't think you have to really worry much about falling too far behind.

The fundamental difference is that in my proposed system, people are actually meant to finish it. It's based on the approximate progression time of the current VR system.

And I do agree with you, there should be some cap, or some progression management. I was only cautioning about the daily cap. However, in the new scenario (100 a day) this seems to not matter. I just wonder what we will have with people jumping to the end in say 4-5 days? Part of the CP is the time sink right? I mean, without the need for grinding out the CP, a lot of players will be left with nothing new for months. Working their way through the CS at least is the illusion of something to do.

With your system AND some new content, then we would be good. I appreciate the time you put into this. It does a good job of highlighting the problem. I even agree mostly with your solution. I would have liked to see the CP put into 3 categories, and people could only max out one of them. The choices would be more rewarding, and people would have to decide what they want to be able to do. I mean you can respect, so you can do other things. But as a healer, I do not need access to DPS boosts, etc. So when I get all the points I need for what I am doing, I will stop the grind and just earn CP as it comes.

RDMyers65b14_ESO

I run Avanchnzel three or four times a day on two different VR characters. I am on the game 8 hours a day usually questing or looting. I just got my first CP today. Then I hear people with over 100 champion points already. Something is wrong. Don't ask me how to fix it but I actually received more XP from killing lower level Mobs than those 2 VR ranks over my character.

WhiskyBob

Daily
Cap

Shadesofkin

Absolutely no cap should be put on the system...ever. Keep the points what they are now and introduce new repeatable content as well as increasing dungeon experience to a healthy level.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

so you want people to be able to rush to 1200 and then progressio is over becuase you personally think you would like the way it feels; your whole rational is just greedy.
currently you can do all the content with under 100cp, suggesting they make a rush to 1200 is so ill conceived its not even funny. did you even get on the pts and test the balance of lots of cp? its op for this current old contet. it NEEDS TO BE SLOW because they need time to develop new content that will be appropriate for lots of cp. currently there is NO HIGH CP CONTENT.

xMovingTarget

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

The Problems With Champion System:

1. The system is an endless grind because each point is too expensive (in xp), each point is too weak in what it offers, and there are too many points in total.

2. The conversion of VR level to Champion points is fundamentally flawed because it fails to consider completed quest content. As such, there is no way for many Veteran players to participate in the system because they have exhausted the quest content that grants the chunks of xp needed to advance in the system.

3. There's too much inconsistency in the way that XP is gained and therefore the way that CP's are granted. This, coupled with the other problems, forces players to endlessly grind PVE mobs to maximize CP gain.

4. The team that designed the Champion System has failed if their goal was to replace Veteran Ranks with a system that felt less grindy and caused less player separation. The Champion System is much worse that the VR system in both respects.

The bottom line is that it's too slow to be engaging or even fun

A Proposed Solution

I think the Champion System would be quite fun, engaging, even addictive if they made the following changes:

1. Reduced the number of Champion Points from 3600 to 1200. This reduction in total number of points would make each point feel more powerful and exciting.

2. Reduce the cost of each CP to somewhere between 10,000 -20,000 XP - not accounting for enlightenment. Why 10-20K xp per CP? If you take the total number of XP needed to go from VR1 to VR14 (13,000,000 xp), and divide that by 1,200 - the total number of Champion Points I propose - you get: 10,833. I believe the amount of time it takes to "max your character out" in the VR system is an appropriate amount of xp to base the Champion System on.

In short, I am proposing that they break up the current Veteran Rank progression - which we all know feels horribly grindy and unrewarding - into 1200 micro installments, each a Champion Point. Champion Points might also be given out as rewards for completing certain in-game goals in PVP and PVE content. At the end of the system your character is a "Champion of Tamriel".

I see nothing wrong with the fact that it would be relatively easy for people to become a Champion. In fact, that's exactly what I am going for. I do not want an endless system. Endless systems are not viable because they also have to be worthless in order to avoid extensive player separation. I would rather have a system that I can complete in a reasonable amount of time, one that is constantly rewarding me with powerful passives, and that pushes me to become a Champion. This will also have the added benefit of reducing player separation which will allow developers to properly balance end-game content.

Will there still be “grinders” that burn through the system in a couple of days or a week? Yes, but if that’s what they want to do, then so be it.

Should this system be account wide? I haven’t made up my mind yet. I’m leaning towards no.

Is it too late to make the change? No.

For those people that think I am "missing the point" of the Champion System because it is supposed to support a revenue model based on ESO+ Subs and XP Booster Sales, I say "shame on you for supporting the grind". Instead, the revenue model for the game should be based on sales of reasonably priced new PVE and PVP content, player services like: barbershop, race changes, alliance transfers (limited of course), and some limited items that are purely for convenience like: inventory upgrades, mount leveling, and research boosters.

I like that. I would just make one point worth 50k xp instead your proposed 10-20k. For a simple reason. If you can burn as quick through that as through the VRanks, it doesnt feel like an achievement to be maxed out. Gaining these points too fast would just be like "meh, i got another CP". If you know where i am at.

Jando

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

so you want people to be able to rush to 1200 and then progressio is over becuase you personally think you would like the way it feels; your whole rational is just greedy.
currently you can do all the content with under 100cp, suggesting they make a rush to 1200 is so ill conceived its not even funny. did you even get on the pts and test the balance of lots of cp? its op for this current old contet. it NEEDS TO BE SLOW because they need time to develop new content that will be appropriate for lots of cp. currently there is NO HIGH CP CONTENT.

Yes, I tested the PTS. Thanks for asking.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. I don't think my rationale is greedy. In my opinion, there is no possible way the system will work long term if it is this slow. There will be too much player separation, and it will be 10X worse than the veteran rank system which this was supposed to solve.

You talk about balancing the game... which will be impossible with such a wide range of power levels.

Making the system tighter, faster, and more exciting is the only way forward without forcing people to buy Champion Point Boosters to catch up to their friends...Is that what you want?

Jando

Xjcon wrote: »

Why do people play mmo's? I play a mmo so I can get to the end game and play the end game content. That is exactly what I did till 1.6, The system itself is ok, the rate you get the points is ridiculous. I don't want to play an mmo to simply gain a small point once in awhile, I want to cap out and play challenging content, what ZOS has done is put in place a very long grind with no new content. I and many others now feel like it's pointless, The folks I played with pre 1.6 have started playing FF14. I would have to say this is an epic fail on ZOS part. And it remains to be seen if people will lose interest and move on faster then ever.

I hate to bash the hard work the folks at ZOS put in to this but if they thought a simple grind for points was going to help their game I think they failed to understand the people willing to play an mmo.

The solution to this mess is to expedite some new content, give the players something to work for, new gear sets to improve players builds. With this will come the want for shiny things, as it stands now I will log on grind for a small amount of time get bored and log off.

GG ZOS,

I totally agree, XJcon,

That's why i am proposing a system that gives some meaningful and exciting post level 50 progression, but it actually ends.

The system they have implemented doesn't even feel like it exists to me.

And of course, everybody wants new content. But that, is a tale for another day.

Jando

With the addition of XP potions coming soon. ZOS needs to make serious changes to the Champion system.

NewBlacksmurf

Maybe just start with removing VR levels first before changing anything champion level related.
Just my two cents.

Exstazik

Yeah do this pls! I can farm it for 2 days then!

Jando

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Maybe just start with removing VR levels first before changing anything champion level related.
Just my two cents.

I agree.... I have plenty of threads/comments on that too. In short, IMHO, they shouldn't be removed, but the XP to gain each rank should be dropped to 150K per level. No other changes to game systems need to be made. If they want to maintain Cadwell SIlver and Gold difficulty, they can tune those zones to VR15-20 and then optionally battle level people appropriately. There's no reason they shouldn't have made that change months ago.

Jando

Exstazik wrote: »

Yeah do this pls! I can farm it for 2 days then!

More power to you. I see no problem with that.

People often worry about grinders...Not me. If that's how they want to play the game then fine.

If ZoS wants to control that behavior they can put a daily cap.

PBpsy

Go back to 1.5 and forget that anything bad ever happened.
That would be a solution

Morvul

I very much disagree with the OPs proposal and line of argument.
The champion system was intended to be a "endless progression" system. It's not supposed to be "maxed out" in a resonable timeframe. And I think such a system, which allows players to work on improving their characters for a very, very long time is a good thing!

The problem of the champion system however, in my opinion, is that it is simply too strong. CPs give waaaaay to much boni.
In the current impementation, someone with 300 CP is much, much stronger then someone with only 50 CP. And someone with 1200+ of CP is basically a demi-god compared to the 50 CP player.

I would propose to leave the process of ganing CP exactly as it is now, and simply divide the bonus each individual CP is providing by 3. That way, "CP-grinder" will still end up stronger then "casuals" - but the difference in character stats will be 5-10% in all categories, not the demi-god status the CP system can potentially grant right now

Genomic

Morvul wrote: »

The champion system was intended to be a "endless progression" system.

And is no-one kind of disheartened by this? It seems to me to be a means to keep people running on that treadmill without actually adding new content. It frankly doesn't show that ZOS has a lot of respect for their playerbase - view us more as rats who'll willingly and endlessly run on the wheel they place in our cage.