Advanced Lockpicking Concept/Suggestion

Gidorick

Lockpicking is one of the mechanics of The Elder Scrolls that was a delight to see in ESO. I know I’m not the only one that was happy to see ESO’s lockpicking take a form closer to Oblivion’s than Skyrim’s. There are, however, a few tweaks and additions that could really enhance the lockpicking experience because picking a lock seems WAY too easy in ESO.



Lockpicking additions:

• Resetting pins
• Two-Stage locks
• Seizing locks
• Traps
• Fortify lockpicking
• Lockpicking tools
• Busting a lock and unbreakable locks
• Tool selection
• Security skill

Resetting Pins
If a player doesn’t properly set a pin, there could be a chance that adjoining pins, that the player has already set, may pop out of place. If a lockpick is broken there is a 100% chance that adjoining pins that have been set will pop out of place and an additional chance that all set pins will pop out of place, resetting the lock.

Much like the 4 levels of lock difficulty, the chance of popping set pins could also be broken up into 4 categories.

• Loose: Low chance of adjoining pins resetting
• Relaxed: Small chance of adjoining pins resetting
• Stiff: Moderate chance of adjoining pins resetting
• Tight: High chance of adjoining pins resetting

Two-Stage Locks
Once all the pins have been set, it would be an interesting mechanic if there were certain locks that required a SECOND lockpicking. Without exiting the player from the lockpicking minigame, the timer could reset, a “locked” sound effect could play, and the pins could require a SECOND pick from their first stage lock-picked positions.

Coupling this concept with the resetting pins would create some pretty complicated and frustrating locks. If a player is picking the second stage of a lock and they break a lockpick there could be a chance of the second stage resetting. Additionally, there could be a chance of the lock resetting all the way back to the original state. Lastly, there could be a chance of an individual pin resetting to the first stage, while all other pins remain at the second stage. If, while setting a two stage pin, the player fails, there could be a chance of resetting adjoining pins to the first stage as well, leading to a weird mix of one and two stage pins.

This would make lockpicking considerably more difficult, more complicated, and admittedly more frustrating than it currently is. Frustrating in a GOOD way though.

Seizing Locks
Currently, when a player fails picking a lockpick they have the option to try again. This concept adds the chance of the pins seizing and the lock not being able to be picked again by that player. This could also happen if a lockpick is broken, but at a much lesser percent chance.

Much like the 4 levels of difficulty, and the pin stability, a lock’s chance of seizing could also be broken up into 4 categories.

• Pristine: This lock will never seize
• Tarnished: This lock has a low chance of seizing
• Dirty: This lock has a moderate chance of seizing
• Rusted: This lock has a high chance of seizing

Traps
Similarly, if a player fails to pick a lock or breaks a lockpick they could be treated to a tipped trap. These traps could vary in their delivery from physical damage to poison damage to magical effects such as fire, lightning, or ice. Just because a lock’s trap has been tripped doesn’t mean the lock has to seize. The player could be given another opportunity to pick the lock but would be subject to the same damage if they fail again.

Trap damage uses the same enchanting Glyph magic that enchants weapons with various elemental effects.

Fortify Lockpicking
The Fortify Lockpicking Potion and Enchantment could make lockpicking easier by lessening the chance of breaking a lockpick, resetting adjoining pins, seizing a lock, finding a two-stage locks, or finding locks with traps. A player could stock up on potions and drink a potion before they attempt to pick a lock or they could enchant a piece of armor to give them a more permanent boost in their lockpicking chances.

Lockpicking Tools
Using the above mechanics for expanding the lockpicking mechanic of ESO would open up the possibility to add different types of lockpicks to ESO, similar to Morrowind’s lockpicking toolset which included lockpicks in five variations. I suggest ESO have six:

• Layman’s Lockpick (the lockpicks currently in the game)
• Apprentice’s Lockpick
• Journeyman’s Lockpick
• Master’s Lockpick
• Grandmaster’s Lockpick
• Secret Grandmaster’s Lockpick

Each progressing level of lockpick could not only increase the ease of setting the pins within the lock but could also decrease the chance of a pin setting failure and could decrease the chance of a lockpick breaking.

One additional lockpick style,The Skeleton Key, should only be able to be obtained through the highest levels of the Theives Guild (once that surfaces) through a specific mission. The Skeleton Key should have a 100% chance to open any non-booby-trapped lock immediately. If the Skeleton Key is used on a lock with a trap it will set off the trap and unlock the lock. The Skeleton Key should have a limited number of uses before it breaks, but should be a high number of uses (50 or so). They should be hard to get, unsellable, and easy to use.



With the inclusion of traps, there could also be the addition of the six variations of lock probes, the same probes that can be found in Morrowind:

• Bent Probe
• Apprentice’s Probe
• Journeyman’s Probe
• Master’s Probe
• Grandmaster’s Probe
• Secret Grandmaster’s Probe

Probes will tell the player if there is a trap attached to a lock and the greater quality the probe, the more information the player receives. Additionally, a high-quality probe has a chance of disarming the trap. A Bent Probe will simply reveal the presence of a trap. A Secret Grandmaster’s Probe will tell the player there is an ice trap that will deal 200 damage with an additional 10 damage per second over 5 seconds, that the lock is a two stage Tarnished lock with Relaxed Pins.

After the lock stats are displayed, the player is given the option to attempt to remove the trap. Removing the trap doesn’t involve any mini-game and is based on a player’s Trap Removal skill and the probe they are using. If a player fails to remove the trap they do not automatically set off the trap. However, there is a VERY unlikely chance of setting off the trap if the probe failure is critical.

Only the attempt at removing a trap will consume a probe. Simply examining the lock will not consume the probe.

Using this information, the player could choose to not remove the trap and to use their Master’s Lockpick to only slightly decrease the chance of seizing the lock and resetting the pins.

After using a probe, a player must again select the lock to pick the lock. Using a probe and using a lockpick are two separate activities. This does leave possibility of a player moving a trap and another player coming up behind them and unlocking and stealing the treasure... but that's a risk the player will just have to take.

Tool Selection:


Managing these tools could be accomplished with an automatically filled radial wheel much in same vein of Fishing with a “Hole E to select tool” when the player’s cursor hovers over a lock.

Busting a Lock and Unbreakable Locks


The last tool in the lockpicking arsenal is the Awl and Hammer. Similar to the Skeleton Key, the Awl and Hammer is a tool that should have a limited number of uses (10 or so) and should be able to be bought from any two-bit merchant in thieves dens.

EDIT: or in the crown shop!

If a player chooses the Awl and Hammer they have a chance to bust open the lock without using a lockpick. Think of it as “The Poor-man’s Skeleton Key”, except the chance to open the lock should depend on the Lockbuster skill.

Certain locks should be unbreakable with the Awl and Hammer but should still be able to be opened with the Skeleton Key.

Security Skill
The Security World Skill would be the fuel that fires this lockpick flame. The skill would be passive and would unlock in the same way all other skills are unlocked, through skill-points.

• Lockpick/Probe: A six level skill (Every player starts with the 1st skill). Each skill allows a player to use the next level lockpick and probe
• Lockbuster: A 3 level skill that increases the chance of Busting a lock by 25%/50%/75%
• Treasure Hunter: A 3 level skill that will make treasure chests more visible from 20/30/40 meters
• Trap Removal: A 3 level skill that increases the chance of removing traps by 25%/50%/75%

While it’s true that these mechanics will make lockpicking MUCH more complex, it would make the system a more engaging part of ESO and would be yet another area we could dump our earned rewards into. ZOS would have the option of keeping locked chests around Tamriel just as they are now. They could, however, tighten the security of the chests owned by nobles and kings, as well as making delve and dungeon chests harder to get into. This increased difficulty could lead to greater rewards in chests that have greater security.

Thoughts?

Ahdora

I love this idea, actually. Unfortunately I doubt it's something we'll see, since lockpicking was a bit more difficult initially, and people complaining about it got it dumbed down even more.

This is very well thought-out, though. I appreciate the effort you put into this and hope it's at least considered.

TheShadowScout

I love these ideas!

Of course, I always liked minigames... and really hope that once the justice system is fully implemented, there will be lots of pickable door locks as well! And less lockpicks found in random nightstands (why do common folk even keep those around?)

I for one would also like to see more different minigames. Some for disabling more elaborate traps? Some for dispelling magical locks/wards/traps? Heck, I would like to use minigames for some resource gathering (not picking a flower for alchemy perhaps, but... runes with quality influenced by minigame success? Ore/wood/fabric with quantity influenced by minigame success? Of course, the added effort would have to mean added chances for more reward as well), though I suppose that would annoy a lot of players who just want to farm resources...

nerevarine1138

I'd love to see this, but I'm not sure how well they'd be able to integrate some of these systems (particularly the really advance picking stuff) in a game where latency has a role to play. But I'm definitely all for a better lockpicking mechanic.

Bloodfang

Very well thought out. Great post. Makes me wonder sometimes why are these kind of topics getting so much overlooked. It's definitively the best topic I've read on this forum in months.

I really hope ZOS reads this. When they intend to bring Thieves Guild they should really reconsider at least some ideas from this topic.

ZOS should really put a stop to all the nerfing, if a player is adventurer and wants to spend a high amount of time just lockpicking /disabling traps etc. why make it so simple and so easy to do. Same is with Crafting, very limited and little to do. These things need their own "Endgame", I mean come on its TES after all, we should not be limited only to PvE and PvP endgame, while other aspects of the game get simplified and nerfed down to oblivion.

ShadowHvo

Lovely ideas! I wish this was ingame!

Kraven

Unfortunately great ideas are generally passed over on the forums here. Many are looking for quick reads to easily flame. I suggest /Feedback in game, can even point to this thread to bring more attention to it.

newtinmpls

Um .... I have trouble with anything other than a simple lock. So if ESO was going to do this I would also want brute force and ignorance options to just slam the side of the thing open. Granted there should be a chance to damage the contents, but since most contents are too low level for me anyway (I play with my friend, and we do pretty much every quest, plus wandering and we are always grouped so we just go up higher faster) anyway, losing the loot on occasion won't be a problem.

Gidorick

@newtinmpls‌ I include the concept of a Awl and Hammer to bust open locks for people who would rather take a more "direct" approach to locks in Tamriel. .

Also, using your input, I moved the Lockbuster to be the 2nd skill that is available, instead of the 4th... that would make much more sense for players that don't want to get into the more advanced lockpicking and would rather bust open a chest.

I really like the idea of busting open a lock "damaging" the contents inside. I wonder what the best way to implement this would be?

Gidorick

Thanks for the kind words @Ahdora, @nerevarine1138, @Bloodfang, @ShadowHvo, & @Kraven. These ideas of mine usually get panned because people would rather gameplay lead to quick and easy rewards. I am looking out over the next 10 years and asking myself "what would keep me enthralled in ESO to the point of me NEVER even considering unsubscribing?"

It's these kinds of systems that would really breath some life into ESO in the long term. More zones, higher levels, different top tier advancement options? Those are all great but ZOS needs to not make ESO a rush to end game. The experience from level 1 needs to be such that players aren't encouraged to RUSH to finish. Give us world dynamics so enthralling that leveling is SECONDARY to our experience.

ok.. rant done. lol.

Gidorick

@TheShadowScout. I 100% agree with you!!! I would LOVE minigames for farming!

I had a concept a while back about an OPTIONAL tool crafting where we had the option to make better pickaxes/fishing rods/axes but if we didn't we would still have the default tools that aren't in our inventory... since that was kind of disliked by the forum I didn't post my expanded concept where the default farming would remain the same as it is now, but if you made a better pickaxe you are treated to a pickaxe minigame and better yield from the farm. It's good to know I'm not the only one that wants more to "do" around ESO.

GrimMauKin

Something that always annoyed me in Skyrim was that lock picking had its own skills line but never actually gained you anything bar a few extra gold coins.

In a solo game like Skyrim it would be a bit unfair for quests to require locks to be picked to advance; however in a multi-player environment like TESO why not have certain quests that require a series off particularly fiendish locks to be overcome in order to progress/achieve the goal and a Nightblade or Thieves Guild Lock Picking skills line* that allowed these locks to be picked.

Currently TESO is a particularly combat oriented game and the only character builds I ever see groups calling for are Tanks and Healers; it would be great for other builds/skills users to be needed (in Dungeons and Dragons it was pretty standard to include a thief in a party for these occasions).

* I was thinking of Lock Proficiency that allowed certain levels of locks to be tackled (like the crafting proficiencies that allow a certain level of raw material to be used) and passives that gained extra time and degree of error with the tumblers; Active skills for forcing locks might also be a possibility. Locked doors (as well as chests) to halt progress would be handy so a skill to lock an unlocked door to cut off pursuit might also be useful. There might also be the option for a skilled lock picker to gain entry to a dungeon or area where a fighting, solving a puzzle or a hefty bribe might otherwise be needed to gain a key.

Picking locks to gain particularly rare or unique items probably doesn't need an explanation.

A great many locks and seals probably aren't purely mechanical either so you could probably throw magic into the mix (and perhaps a Mage's Guild skills line) for magical locks or hybrid locks that conceal particularly valuable treasure.

Malloway

I absolutely love everything about your idea OP! Here's to hoping ZOS takes this into consideration when they release the Thieves Guild

TheShadowScout

I would not count on this being considered for the TG release, they must have more then enough other stuff to worry about for that one.

As a later upgrade though... games often revamp their mechanics if the developers have time and think of something better. See the upcoming provisioning remake. Could be that in a while, they might remake the lockpicking system as well...

Also, other minigames, as I mentioned before. It does vex me on occasion how traps are handled in ESO, so simple... I mean, sure, a simple beartrap or tripwire could be disarmed with a single click. But... I would like to see mechanisms that take a bit more too. Cut the right line to shut off the flamethrower trap, or fumble and get a facefull of fire? Block the mechanism of a spike trap so it won't unblock while you are halfway through? something of the sort...

Also, what about combination locks? Those too could be added as different minigame... remember Skyrim and some dragontomb doors?

Or secret doors... I am missing those, a lot, they would be a neat addition to many a dungeon...

And of course, magic. Unravelling a ward spell, mystrical trap or arcane seal on chests, doors, or whatnot... sure, there are some in the game that are really neat in an easy "look at the walls/read the books and press the right constellations in the right order/place the right stuff at the right spot" way, but... there could be more.

It truly would add a good chunk of depth to the game. So, hopefully someday.

Dominoid

Thanks for the read again. I read this and the player treasure chest idea. While I would love most of what you propose here, I (and we) sadly must realize that ESO is a very casual game and unfortunately what you propose would, in many areas, be too frustrating for the "average" ESO player. Hopefully some of what you propose could make the cut eventually however.

Dru1076

It would make things more interesting of some of these ideas were implemented.

One thing I was thinking the other day, is the chance of successfully forcing a lock increasing as more tumblers are put in place. I don't know how many people use the force option, but it seems quite pointless as it is now.

Khaldar

Too many people still complain about how hard it is... but a great post of cool ideas

Heishi

While we're throwing out lock pick suggestions, not everyone should be able to "pick" a lock. It's ridiculous. Some should pick it, some should bash it, and some should use magic to manipulate the mechanics.

Gidorick

Heishi wrote: »

While we're throwing out lock pick suggestions, not everyone should be able to "pick" a lock. It's ridiculous. Some should pick it, some should bash it, and some should use magic to manipulate the mechanics.

This is a good point. However, there would have to be reasons why a player would choose one method over the other or all three methods need to each require similar skill to perform. If a player could just attack the chest... why would they ever try to pick the lock?

I did include the concept of the awl and hammer for someone who didn't want to learn to lockpick. Perhaps there is also a scroll that removes any traps.

Merlin13KAGL

Traps, definitely
Forcing (more than 10% on simple's at least), yes.
Telekinesis, heck yes.

Chance to damage goods inside when bashing/forcing, absolutely.

Perhaps the option to crank up the difficulty as mentioned in OP, granting potentially better rewards as the outcome or semi-permanent debuffs as the non-disarmed consequence?

OrphanHelgen

Ahdora wrote: »

Unfortunately I doubt it's something we'll see, since lockpicking was a bit more difficult initially, and people complaining about it got it dumbed down even more.

.

I hate it when noob complainers get what they want.

Heishi

Gidorick wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

While we're throwing out lock pick suggestions, not everyone should be able to "pick" a lock. It's ridiculous. Some should pick it, some should bash it, and some should use magic to manipulate the mechanics.

This is a good point. However, there would have to be reasons why a player would choose one method over the other or all three methods need to each require similar skill to perform. If a player could just attack the chest... why would they ever try to pick the lock?

I did include the concept of the awl and hammer for someone who didn't want to learn to lockpick. Perhaps there is also a scroll that removes any traps.

Generally the reason for choosing one method over another is because either you want or don't want to do the mini game. From there usually you bash when your attack power/str/ect are higher than spell power/int/ect, or use alteration if you have the reverse. At lower levels there's a degree of overlap.

A "warrior" might be able to use a spell to open lowend lock, but wouldn't be able to later on higher difficulty. A "mage" may be able to bash very weak locks, but wouldn't end up with the strength needed to bash high end. A "thief" would usually have stats that float in the middle and could maybe moderately bash or use a spell, but for the high end ones they would have to rely on lockpicking skilled.

The real key would be where to build such a system into.

Would we make it a slottable skill and take up one of the 5 slots?

Do we make a utility slot just for things like this? Maybe later things like waterbreathing, detect life, and other such things could be added?

To keep it in line, maybe bash and open lock are skills which the former scales based on stamina/weapon dmg and the later on magicka/spell dmg. Then it has to do over a certain amount in one "hit" in order to open.

For example maybe an intermediate chest requires 800 weapon or spell dmg to open. It would probably have to scale to level or area, but people who get paid much more than I could sort out the minor details like that.

Gidorick

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Traps, definitely
Forcing (more than 10% on simple's at least), yes.
Telekinesis, heck yes.

Chance to damage goods inside when bashing/forcing, absolutely.

Perhaps the option to crank up the difficulty as mentioned in OP, granting potentially better rewards as the outcome or semi-permanent debuffs as the non-disarmed consequence?

I really like the idea of the chance to damage the goods... or destroy the chest all together. Simular consequences could be there for magic. Sort of like my lock seizing concept. Maybe there's some ideas that Should be added to my original post!

Cuyler

+1 to this. Thanks for hashing all this out!

Gidorick

those ideas sounds more stat based than skill based @Heishi. I would agree that just outright bashing should be based on stats IF lockpicking was also. I already have the Awl and Hammer suggested, which bypasses the skill portion of the lockpicking.... if there is a separate stat based bash mechanic it should also have an associated minigame. Same for Magical unlocking. There needs to be parity between the systems as well as a synnergistic component.

So it would be possible for one player to use all three skills to:
-remove trap with magic
-attempt a lockpicking and seize the lock
-bash lock open

OR a player could specialize and use magical, lockpicking, or bashing skills exclusivity!

I think I'll work up some ideas and update the OP. These are some good ideas!

Vegaroth

Is overall nice idea, but with the loot system we have in this game that will make even less atractive the chests, actually i know ppl who completely ignore chest due to the time / effort to open them compare to the loot / xp u get from them... increse the complexity or dificulty will only end making them completly unworth, unlees they increase hugely the loot from those.

Chuggernaut

I love the break lock idea (with a chance to destroy items in side that is), but think the difficulty should not be increased since all the b**ching since Beta about how hard they are already (which they are not).

I pick them currently with a 360 controller (emulate using GlovePie), and only on the really hard ones do I need to use my mouse.

Gidorick

Vegaroth wrote: »

Is overall nice idea, but with the loot system we have in this game that will make even less atractive the chests, actually i know ppl who completely ignore chest due to the time / effort to open them compare to the loot / xp u get from them... increse the complexity or dificulty will only end making them completly unworth, unlees they increase hugely the loot from those.

I think XP gain from locks should go up. Maybe even the value of the items in the chest. This concept was actually born from a companion concept about a player driven treasure hunting I bulleted here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150629/player-driven-treasure-hunting-concept

The player treasure would yield as much or as little as the player determines.

BigM

Like some of the ideas, will be interesting to see where locks go after consoles go live. But going by what happens with games after the cry babies start complaining I can see a lot of stuff getting easier instead of harder. Shame really.

Gidorick

BigM wrote: »

Like some of the ideas, will be interesting to see where locks go after consoles go live. But going by what happens with games after the cry babies start complaining I can see a lot of stuff getting easier instead of harder. Shame really.

Yea....

wookiefriseur

Didn't look at the thread creators name and when I finished reading the opening post I just thought: "Not bad, a Gidorick style posting from someone other than Gid..oh, it's actually from Gidorick, of course." ^^

Great ideas here, from the other posters too.

Thieves Guild:
Such lockpicking and trap mechanisms could be combined with Thieves Guild story and daily quests. Would be a great time to introduce those mechanics together with Thieves Guild.

Useful thieves:
Loot quality or the amount of items in chests could remain as it is now, when a regular person opens or forces the lock. But skilled lockpickers with the right tools could find secret compartments and prevent traps from damaging some of the goods inside. @GrimMauKin made me think about making dungeon groups wanting to take a thief with them. All dungeon chests could be trapped by default and springing the trap would destroy some of the loot so that they drop only as much as they do right now. @TheShadowScout 's idea with secret doors is great too. Think about unlocking a door behind which there is an additional boss to fight.

Daedric Artefacts:
I'm a bit on the fence regarding the Skeleton Key. I don't think Nocturnal should allow players to keep it for that many uses. I could see it being used in a Thieves Guild weekly quest after which it would either stay in your inventory with 1 use left, or it gets taken away. If you then already had it in your inventory when finishing the weekly again, you could get a bit more gold instead. Something along these lines.