POLL: How Gear should look after VR removal?

Dubhliam

It has been quite some time since the announcement of VR removal, but up until recently we had no idea what would be in store for us when it was implemented.

Before I go any further, let me make two things perfectly clear:
1. VRs are going to get removed, no point in saying things should stay as they are
2. VR removal is a good thing, but the way to implement it is tricky

Some of the forum members (myself included) are not happy with the system ZOS proposed would replace current VR levels in terms of gear.
So I made a suggestion of my own in this thread which soon became a collection of ideas, each with their own way of dealing with VR removal.

Here is a list with those ideas, including ZOS' proposal, with links and short descriptions answering to these 5 questions critical to VR removal in terms of gear:

1. What level would VR16 convert to? (add + if that number would grow with updates)
2. What requirement to wear would each tier of gear have?
3. How many tiers would there be upon conversion? / how would gear progress?
4. What materials would be used to craft tiers of gear?
5. Would there be (X) new materials with (X) updates?

1   | 2         | 3                    | 4             | 5
v16 | gear      | tiers/seasonal       | crafting mats | future
lvl | requires  | progression          | requirements  | materials

Developer suggestion by @ZOS_RichLambert

50  | 10CP/tier | 16/same as current   | veteran mats  | seasonal X

Alternate suggestion 1 by @Dubhliam - Hardcap and softcap CP scaling

50  | lvl 50    | 10/scale more by CP  | veteran mats  | seasonal X

Alternate suggestion 2 by @Dubhliam - Gear tiers progress with unlocked CP passives

50  | lvl 50    | 5/unlock CP passives | Void+Rubedite | season 2&3

Alternate suggestion 3 by @Sausage - Gear Armory- grind multiple gear sets

50  | lvl 50    | 1/legendary+1        | Ebony         | none

Alternate suggestion 4 by @NewBlacksmurf - Level 50 - 55+ gear progression via motifs

55+ | 1lvl/tier | 5/one motif/tier     | veteran mats  | seasonal X

Alternate suggestion 5 by @Faulgor - Gear progression with non veteran existing materials

80+ | lvl 50    | 16/every 2 lvls      | up to Ebony   | none

Alternate suggestion 6 by @andypappb16_ESO - Seasoned and special gear + CP/trait crafting

50  | lvl 50    | 1/seasonal (special) | Ebony+CP/trait| none

Alternate suggestion 7 by @Enodoc - Gear Specialization with veteran materials

50  | lvl 50    | 5/specialised gear   | veteran mats  | seasonal X

Alternate suggestion 8 by @Autolycus - Gear with class-specific skills

50  | 90CP/tier | 5/class specific     | veteran mats  | seasonal X

I would really like to see a global perspective of what would players want to see implemented, and it would also serve as a guideline to ZOS.

Note that although these short descriptions deal with gear issues only, please feel free to discuss other issues with VR removal, f.e. how Cadwell zones should be dealth with. After all, it is one of the biggest reasons for VR removal.

Dubhliam

A note to all authors:
If you have any further ideas or wish to specify any details of your suggestion, you can always edit your post from the original thread.
The only thing that you could not edit is the Code line, but you could always ask me to update it.

Sausage

Gear Armory FTW! We dont want to grind CP-gears what are eventually be battleleveled, right.

Robotmafia

nice pole but this is to much work for me haha :P

Faulgor

Oh that's nice.
But I just voted for my own, heh

Enodoc

It's interesting to see that the majority of suggestions are focused on the gear itself having no CP requirement, but gear progression still existing in some other form (whether that's based in some way on CPs, or on items like mats or motifs). I think this is the real take-home message for ZOS to consider.

Sausage

Faulgor wrote: »

Oh that's nice.
But I just voted for my own, heh

Yeah, they didnt give us much chance, as developers option is first one.

Dubhliam

Enodoc wrote: »

It's interesting to see that the majority of suggestions are focused on the gear itself having no CP requirement, but gear progression still existing in some other form (whether that's based in some way on CPs, or on items like mats or motifs). I think this is the real take-home message for ZOS to consider.

And that is exactly what this poll is all about. Well noticed.

When I first heard that they wanted to make gear have CP requirements... I grinded my teeth so hard I almost peed a little.

There are people that are fine with how things are right now, and I guess those people will vote for CP requirements.
I on the other hand think that VR removal is absolutely necessary and with it should come some sort of a downgrade of content to lvl 50.

Sausage wrote: »

Gear Armory FTW! We dont want to grind CP-gears what are eventually be battleleveled, right.

If every veteran content gets scaled to lvl50, that would present no problem. Most of the ideas (including mine) want that.
Battle leveling would only be to lvl 50:

in Cyro and IC in dungeons with Grouping Tool Orsinium and future DLCs

Artjuh90

useless poll devs will have their own way of doing it anyway, they wont use this.

NewBlacksmurf

Thanks for creating this discussion.

It's interesting to see the different ideas and more curious how those who participate in this poll will respond in contrast or comparison to what ZOS ends up doing.

Enodoc

Artjuh90 wrote: »

useless poll devs will have their own way of doing it anyway, they wont use this.

Of course they won't, but they will read the comments, and hopefully see the "take-home message" that this is really about - gear progression without CP locks.

Dubhliam

Enodoc wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

useless poll devs will have their own way of doing it anyway, they wont use this.

Of course they won't, but they will read the comments, and hopefully see the "take-home message" that this is really about - gear progression without CP locks.

Well ideally without any kind of lock. Simply progression.

I do realize many of the proposed ideas here require a ****ton of work and hours to balance, but in my experience, it is better to take your time and make something worthwhile than realize something is not working, then try to salvage it.

In their proposed way, they would not be making anything that is broken. In fact, they would not be making anything.
The gear and system would be EXACTLY the same as they are now.
Makes me wonder why are they removing VR in the first place...

...because they said they would.

CaptainObvious

Correct, how will enchanting, provisioning, and alchemy work as well?

If they retire Scoobedite, etc. then how many angry people will that result in? There was already a lot of gnashing of teeth on the v16 crafting requirement. How cheesed will people be if they end up with with stacks of Old Scoobedite, Old Scoobedo leather, and Old Scooby Ash that can only be vendored?

Are they using CP as a seasonal way to increase gear cap? I.E. When vet ranks are removed you can acquire 750CP monster gear, but will want to get 1000 CP monster gear the next season.

How will purchased sets like Phoenix and Shield Breaker work?

How will rewards of the worthy and the Cyrodiil item coffers work?

How will basic vendors work?

If gear does not scale beyond 160 CP, then what is the purpose of removing the veteran levels other than making vet level advancement account wide? Will targeting a player show their CP count or will it simply show that they are level 50?

This is definitely something that they should throw on the PTS and determine if it is an evolutionary advancement or an evolutionary dead end. I.E. have players evaluate it and see whether it sinks or swims as a concept before completely committing to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3qZ_VN64-I

Dubhliam

Lol @Minions

@CaptainObvious :
Exactly, there will be many more things to consider apart from what will gear look like.

For example:

will food and potions also require CP to be able to consume? will Cadwell Sivler and Gold remain as they are in terms of monster difficulty and experience gained? ...

Cadwell zones were THE reason for people demanding VR removal so they wouldn't need to grind the exp to be able to wear endgame gear and/or be able to use endgame consumables.
I do admit that CPs are less of a grind than VR levels, but nothing much will change with their proposal.

I strongly believe they should downscale all current veteran content to around lvl 50 and remove any requirements from that point.

CaptainObvious

So here's the kicker with Cadwell's zones and VR level removal. Players are still going to have to run them anyways to get the skill points they will need to be competitive regardless. So complaining that the vet levels made them do it is just boxing at phantoms. What next, people complaining that the skyshards and skill point awards should be removed from silver, gold, Cyrodiil, IC, and Orsinium?

If content is downscaled and there are no additional things to strive for then this game simply becomes a movie. How do you feel about the upscaling at Orsinium and Battle Leveling? When you flatten this game, it loses depth.

Dubhliam

CaptainObvious wrote: »

So here's the kicker with Cadwell's zones and VR level removal. Players are still going to have to run them anyways to get the skill points they will need to be competitive regardless. So complaining that the vet levels made them do it is just boxing at phantoms. What next, people complaining that the skyshards and skill point awards should be removed from silver, gold, Cyrodiil, IC, and Orsinium?

If content is downscaled and there are no additional things to strive for then this game simply becomes a movie. How do you feel about the upscaling at Orsinium and Battle Leveling? When you flatten this game, it loses depth.

Key word "to be competitive".
Of course you will have to go there to get all the skill points, but that is not the point. The point is people ARE being directed to those Carwell zones after they finish the main storyline.

Right now people hit lvl 50 and can do exactly what?
Craglorn is full of v11 and v13 mobs, but HEY! It is a "veteran" zone, you can go there as soon as you are v1.
Sure, you can go to Orsinium where you are battle leveled, but that zone is open from lvl1, and players would have most likely already been there.
Let's see now, what else? Oh yeah, you can go PvP. Oh wait... available since lvl 10.

You can see how everything pretty much points you in that direction.

People MUST level to v16 to get endgame gear. It is not only the point in being able to wear it, you CAN'T DROP v16 gear if you are not v16.

In both of my suggested ideas (and most others) people could drop and wear endgame gear as soon as they hit lvl 50.
If they want to be competitive they will still have to go to other faction zones for all the skill points, and the gear would not be at max value at 0 CPs.

BUT! they would not be forced to do some "content" that serves no other purpose than to grant exp for veteran leveling.

CaptainObvious

Yes. The problem that you are running into is instead of releasing more content, they focused on releasing the game on more platforms.

Additionally, players are force to run content to get to 50 anyways. Additionally, you are mistaken on the you have to be v16 to get v16 gear. This is somewhat muddied by the battle leveling. If you enter an area above level then monsters drop gear according to their level in non-battle leveled areas. The battle leveling and gear adjustment was put in place as a balancing act to keep level 3s from getting new fancy v16 gear. I have run under level characters and picked up gear I would not be able to equip for a while.

What about an argument as to why level 1 characters can't wear end game gear? What makes a v16 helmet harder to put on than a level 1 helmet? Lack of a pinned on note indicating head goes here?

This is how they set up their system and the more people complain and get them to change existing systems, the less new things the game will get over all. No new content == bored people rants on the forums. No new content for longer == ++bored people rants on the forums.

They allow v1 players into Craglorn because at the time people complained that they didn't want to run quests, they just wanted to create ruts in the ground killing the same monsters over and over again. That is why V1s can go into Craglorn.

Plus, their interpretation of your hypothesis may not line up as you intend. I expect it not to line up as you intend. Look at the IC debacle. When IC was new and shiny people wanted the devs to implement the gating system they originally had advertised as a way to keep out the unwashed masses. The devs took that to mean, if they created a gated campaign, then the PvP elite would migrate there because that is what they are asking for. Wrong answer and several months of wasted development effort.

Enodoc

For me, it's all about the numbers. 1-10 comes "before" 11-14. So Cadwell's comes "before" Craglorn. Since the numbers are indicative of difficulty, 11 is harder than 1. Thus Craglorn is harder than Cadwell's. Remove VRs, and everything says "50". No more of that subliminal "Cadwell's comes first" stuff because Cadwell's is 50, and Craglorn is 50. Craglorn is still harder than Cadwell's, but not because of the "difficulty numbers"; instead, it's harder just because it's designed for groups rather than solo/duo.

Dubhliam

Scrolling through just the first 4 pages of THIS thread I found numerous complaints and disapproval from a number of players:

@MisterBigglesworth post

So in the last year you've successfully managed to change the label on Levels 51-150

Old label: VR1 - VR16

New Label: CP ranks 1 - 160

.... yay?

@Geemarc post

This is the worst idea I've read in a long time. Removing veteran levels (which don't need removing) and replacing it with CP requirements on gear. I don't think I've seen anyone ask for that, either just remove them or keep them.

If this is the system you plan to implement please take a very, VERY long time developing it, as I do not want to see this in game..

@GreenSoup2HoT post

If CP restriction's on gear get's implemented im quitting this game...
...Fix your drop table's.

Create new way's to acquire relevant gear.

PLEASE DO NOT CREATE NEW WAY'S TO RESTRICT CASUAL/NEWER PLAYER'S...

@Turelus post

... Please @ZOS_RichLambert consider capping leveling at 50 (for now) and making all gear available at that level...

@Rhazmuz post

Please dont just replace VR with CP...
...Just make CP which increase the power of gear...

@Rune_Relic post

...You can not use the phrase 'play as you want'....then force everyone to play using only the extremely limited (ie gated/ non obsolete) options that you provide. 95% of your gear is absolutely obsolete...

@Dual.sphereeb17_ESO post

...There's absolutely no need for a VR system replace if all you'll do is a trade off...

@Elloa post

...Now, i'm not sure if it's a great idea to have a Champion point requierement to lock some gear. but in the same time, you need to find a way to "lock" away the gear that had been already created and that is too powerfull for fresh lvl 50...

@BeanBagGamer post

Why?

Whoever came up with this idea needs to go back and start again.

Yet in this poll (so far) ZOS' proposal with CP requirements has a 50% lead (12 votes) over the runner up (8) which is a suggestion with EVEN HIGHER CP requirements.
The next biggest vote without requirements has half the votes (6) of the developer proposal.

Makes me wonder.

NewBlacksmurf

Enodoc wrote: »

For me, it's all about the numbers. 1-10 comes "before" 11-14. So Cadwell's comes "before" Craglorn. Since the numbers are indicative of difficulty, 11 is harder than 1. Thus Craglorn is harder than Cadwell's. Remove VRs, and everything says "50". No more of that subliminal "Cadwell's comes first" stuff because Cadwell's is 50, and Craglorn is 50. Craglorn is still harder than Cadwell's, but not because of the "difficulty numbers"; instead, it's harder just because it's designed for groups rather than solo/duo.

Yep. Agree with this

Dubhliam

One more thing that has been puzzling me for a long time.

Will the droptables be dependant on your CP?

You see, the current system is: you can drop only gear you are able to wear (f.e. if you are v3 you drop v3 gear even if you are battle leveled to v15).

So what happens when VR are removed and a newbie becomes lvl 50? What kind of gear will he be able to loot?

You see, this is one of the problems of requirements.
If all gear has lvl 50 requirements, new players don't need to "grind" to be able to catch up with older players in order to get the best gear.
But in turn, that very "best" gear should be scaled by CP.

You see... it's kind of a "to do list"
old way (or CP requirements):

quest to lvl 50 grind to max level, or to the No of CPs needed for best gear get the best gear

how it should look:

quest to lvl 50 grind the best gear max out your gear

As you can see, if you make the requirement lvl 50, people can start grinding the best gear (E.A. do content) earlier than with VR or CP requirements.

Dubhliam

Is it just me, or do people vote for option 1 because that is the only one they understand, and have no will to read any other?