Veteran Dragonstar Arena scoring is worse than before Update 6

Saturn

I personally think that the way the scoring system is handled after Update 6 is worse than before. Since the change I have completed it as a tank nine times and from those nine completions it seems very evident that deaths do not in fact matter very much or if anything at all.

I thought to myself, "Well since ZOS have yet to release any sort of 'Formula' of how the scoring works I should try myself". I therefore took my nine completions all of which I have recorded and put them into a program called Graph to figure out what type of graph type would fit it the best to better get a grasp on how to approach a run through vDSA.


From lowest point score to highest, here are my nine plot points + sixteen submitted plot points (seconds have been multiplied by 1.67 to go from 1-100 instead of 1-60 to fit the graph):

1188 points --- 127.00 minutes *Originally 127m 00s*
2040 points --- 120.0835 minutes *Originally 120m 5s*
3119 points --- 111.3006 minutes *Originally 111m 18s*
4449 points --- 100.4843 minutes *Originally 100m 29s* -- Submitted @Garkin
4963 points --- 96.3173 minutes *Originally 96m 19s*
5364 points --- 93.5010 minutes *Originally 93m 3s* -- Submitted @Garkin
5942 points --- 88.3507 minutes *Originally 88m 21s* -- Submitted @Garkin
6904 points --- 80.5344 minutes *Originally 80m 32s*
7180 points --- 78.2839 minutes *Originally 78m 17s*
7424 points --- 76.3006 minutes *Originally 76m 18s* -- Submitted @Garkin
7654 points --- 74.4342 minutes *Originally 74m 26s*
7964 points --- 71.9185 minutes *Originally 71m 55s*
9290 points --- 61.1336 minutes *Originally 61m 8s*
10056 points --- 54.9185 minutes *Originally 54m 55s* -- Submitted by @Katinas
10065 points --- 54.8350 minutes *Originally 54m 50s* -- Submitted by @Katinas
10113 points --- 54.4509 minutes *Originally 54m 27s* -- Submitted by @ZeroIndex
10154 points --- 54.1002 minutes *Originally 54m 6s* -- Submitted by @Katinas
10285 points --- 53.0501 minutes *Originally 53m 3s* -- Submitted by @Katinas
10447 points --- 51.7348 minutes *Originally 51m 44s* -- Submitted as nr.1 NA Daggerfall Covenant score as of 04/21/2015
10459 points --- 51.6346 minutes *Originally 51m 38s* -- Submitted by @Katinas
10569 points --- 50.7348 minutes *Originally 50m 44s* -- Submitted by @Jaerlach
10587 points --- 50.6012 minutes *Originally 50m 36s* -- Submitted by @Katinas
10688 points --- 49.7682 minutes *Originally 49m 46s* -- Submitted by @Jaerlach
10714 points --- 49.5511 minutes *Originally 49m 33s* -- Submitted by @Katinas
10839 points --- 48.5511 minutes *Originally 48m 33s* -- Submitted by @Katinas

Deaths are not factored into this as I do not actually believe they make a difference. If deaths mattered there would be inconsistencies in the graph, which would show up in the "R" value, which determines the accuracy of the graph line going through all the plot points, the closer it is to 1 the more accurate it is, if it is 1 it is 100% accurate, i.e. the graph line fits all points perfectly.

Now, looking at the very first plot point there is a very important observation we can make, it passes beyond the 2 hour mark aka 120 minutes, which is the time where the points start degrading from your score gained from completing all stages i.e. 2050 (200 per stages 1-9 and 250 for stage 10). This means that the 5 extra seconds over the 2 hour mark makes the score degrade from 2050 to 2040, which leads to the conclusion that every 1 second is worth 2 points (to be precise it is more like 2.05).

Alright, here is a picture of the graph that came from these twenty-five plot points using a linear "trendline" function:



The Y axis is score (in thousands) and the X axis is time (in minutes).
*Keep in mind that some plot points are not a 100% visible as other plot points overlay them*

As mentioned before the "R" determines accuracy and here it states that it is 100% accurate, which again supports my theory that a death is worth nothing. Had this not been true there would have been deviant plot points as some runs were done in less than 20 lives and some in over 40.

Make of this what you will, I for one find it very absurd that deaths do not matter at all, no point reduction, but just the time lost from recovering. As I understood it, they wanted to alter the Trials and DSA from being Marathon sprints to something more complex and ended up making it even worse, at least for DSA.

Veteran Dragonstar Arena before Update 6 punished a death hard, but therefore also encouraged careful play. If you have been on a run with any of the highest ranking vDSA teams then you know it is all about doing it as fast as possible and no longer has that skillful play about it, as the DPS'es hit so hard that every single enemy melts before it fully emerges from its portal. It is a sad thing to see and those who are able to complete it without any deaths or very few are not rewarded as they should be.

I think what we need for vDSA is a hardmode like scoring system (like a trial hardmode completion) where a deathless run is awarded with a great sum of extra points that will offset the really skillful players from the really fast ones.


Eh, but these are just my thoughts on the matter and I will keep updating my graph. You are yourself welcome to provide me with a time and score in the form of a picture from clearing vDSA and it shall be added.

Gyudan

Thanks for the numbers!
This situation is kind of funny since the new scoring system was designed to end speedruns.

grimsfield

great post. I agree, scoring is screwed up. To make deaths mean almost nothing is just dumb. How can you say a 60 minute run with 1 death is worth less than 59 minute run with 10 deaths. Makes no sense.

If any dev is reading this, lets be clear. Your scoring system is stupid.

Saturn

grimsfield wrote: »

great post. I agree, scoring is screwed up. To make deaths mean almost nothing is just dumb. How can you say a 60 minute run with 1 death is worth less than 59 minute run with 10 deaths. Makes no sense.

If any dev is reading this, lets be clear. Your scoring system is stupid.

It is very silly and I am afraid that deaths don't count anything in Trials either, though I have not yet tested this. Of course Trials do have Hardmode, which does make a huge difference in score. Perhaps that is what we need for vDSA or maybe something like: Less than 10 deaths = x amount of points, less than 5 deaths = bigger x amount of points and 0 deaths = Very big x amount of points.

I have a friend who is very upset about the scoring as his team got a 54 minute run with 1 death and lost out to a team with over 5 deaths who did it in 52 minutes.. Quite messed up, indeed.

Saturn

Added another really low time (1188 points - 127m 00s), which I thought would offset the graph accuracy.. alas, it still fits perfectly. Once more proving that the complex scoring system is not that complex..

Saturn

Added another higher time (7964 points --- 71.9185 minutes *Originally 71m 55s*). It steers the graph to -123. Very interesting.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Thanks for sharing.

Joy_Division

Ty for sharing.

Jaerlach

Fwiw, 10000 requirea a time under 55m, whereas 10450 is 51:45.


score growth slows under 60 minutes.


Vdsa is 100% a speedrun only challenge.

Source: have 10450 score.

Fwiw, you can't do that kind of time with many deaths, due to the dps loss.

Garkin

Fits perfectly.

A few other scores:
5942 points, time 1:28:21 (7200 - 5301 = 1899 * 2.05 = 3892.95 + 2050 = 5942.95)
5364 points, time 1:33:03 (7200 - 5583 = 1617 * 2.05 = 3314,85 + 2050 = 5364.85)
4449 points, time 1:40:29 (7200 - 6029 = 1171 * 2.05 = 2400.55 + 2050 = 4450.55)

Garkin

Coefficient for DSA is 2.05, it leads me to this thought:

Maximum points earned from killing in DSA is 2050. 2050 / 1000 = 2.05.

If I apply the same for AA, you will get coefficient 7300 / 1000 = 7.3.

If I apply this coefficient to scores in this post, time limit for AA is probably 20 minutes:

9764 points, time 14:22 - (1200 - 862 = 338 * 7.3 = 2467.4 + 7300 = 9767,4)
9893 points, time 14:05 - (1200 - 845 = 355 * 7.3 = 2591.5 + 7300 = 9891,5)

Paulington

In that case, we can predict what time is required for what score and vice versa, as follows with time in seconds:

Time = [7200 - [(Score - 2050)/2.05]]

Score = [-2.05 x (Time - 7200) + 2050]

I just tested this with my recorded runs and it fits perfectly. Of course both of these equations are only valid for T >= 7200 but that's besides the point.

Funny how ZOS never wanted to tell us how scoring is determined, it turns out that it's because it is ridiculously simple and only cares about run speed!

Garkin

Paulington wrote: »

In that case, we can predict what time is required for what score and vice versa, as follows with time in seconds:

Time = [7200 - [(Score - 2050)/2.05]]

Score = [2.05 x (Time - 7200) + 2050]

I just tested this with my recorded runs and it fits perfectly. Of course both of these equations are only valid for T >= 7200 but that's besides the point.

Funny how ZOS never wanted to tell us how scoring is determined, it turns out that it's because it is ridiculously simple and only cares about run speed!

Estimated Score = ( (time limit - current time) * (points earned / 1000) ) + points earned

If you successfully finish trial, score can't be less then points earned / 100 (in case of DSA it is 20 points).

Paulington

Garkin wrote: »

show previous quotes

Paulington wrote: »

In that case, we can predict what time is required for what score and vice versa, as follows with time in seconds:

Time = [7200 - [(Score - 2050)/2.05]]

Score = [-2.05 x (Time - 7200) + 2050]

I just tested this with my recorded runs and it fits perfectly. Of course both of these equations are only valid for T >= 7200 but that's besides the point.

Funny how ZOS never wanted to tell us how scoring is determined, it turns out that it's because it is ridiculously simple and only cares about run speed!

Estimated Score = ( (time limit - current time) * (points earned / 1000) ) + points earned

If you successfully finish trial, score can't be less then points earned / 100 (in case of DSA it is 20 points).

Your equation doesn't work.

Take a hypothetical run of 1h32m time and a score of 5,500.

Estimated score = ((7200 - 5520) x (5500/1000)) + 5500 = 14,740. That's obviously incorrect.

Try my equation:

Score = [-2.05 x (5520 - 7200) + 2050] = 5,494.

Unless of course you've gotten something wrong or I have misinterpreted. Of course my equation is only valid for times <= 7200 and I am okay with that, after t=7200 score drops off dramatically down to the minimum of 20, as you said. People wanting to predict time required/score will be finishing under two hours anyway so the equation works just fine for them.

Also, I missed out a minus! The equation for score is actually:

Score = [-2.05 x (Time - 7200) + 2050]

.

Garkin

Paulington wrote: »

show previous quotes

Garkin wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

In that case, we can predict what time is required for what score and vice versa, as follows with time in seconds:

Time = [7200 - [(Score - 2050)/2.05]]

Score = [-2.05 x (Time - 7200) + 2050]

I just tested this with my recorded runs and it fits perfectly. Of course both of these equations are only valid for T >= 7200 but that's besides the point.

Funny how ZOS never wanted to tell us how scoring is determined, it turns out that it's because it is ridiculously simple and only cares about run speed!

Estimated Score = ( (time limit - current time) * (points earned / 1000) ) + points earned

If you successfully finish trial, score can't be less then points earned / 100 (in case of DSA it is 20 points).

Your equation doesn't work.

Take a hypothetical run of 1h32m time and a score of 5,500.

Estimated score = ((7200 - 5520) x (5500/1000)) + 5500 = 14,740. That's obviously incorrect.

Try my equation:

Score = [-2.05 x (5520 - 7200) + 2050] = 5,494.

Unless of course you've gotten something wrong or I have misinterpreted. Of course my equation is only valid for times <= 7200 and I am okay with that, after t=7200 score drops off dramatically down to the minimum of 20, as you said. People wanting to predict time required/score will be finishing under two hours anyway so the equation works just fine for them.

Also, I missed out a minus! The equation for score is actually:

Score = [-2.05 x (Time - 7200) + 2050]

.

My "points earned" are "raid points" from finishing stages and killing mobs, it is not raid score. It means 10x 200 + 50 for killing final boss = 2050:

Estimated Score = ((7200 - 5520) x (2050/1000)) + 2050 = 5494.

I wanted to make formula applicable to all trials, not just to DSA. That's why I have used raid points / 1000 instead of just 2.05.

xherics

Garkin wrote: »

show previous quotes

Paulington wrote: »

Garkin wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

In that case, we can predict what time is required for what score and vice versa, as follows with time in seconds:

Time = [7200 - [(Score - 2050)/2.05]]

Score = [-2.05 x (Time - 7200) + 2050]

I just tested this with my recorded runs and it fits perfectly. Of course both of these equations are only valid for T >= 7200 but that's besides the point.

Funny how ZOS never wanted to tell us how scoring is determined, it turns out that it's because it is ridiculously simple and only cares about run speed!

Estimated Score = ( (time limit - current time) * (points earned / 1000) ) + points earned

If you successfully finish trial, score can't be less then points earned / 100 (in case of DSA it is 20 points).

Your equation doesn't work.

Take a hypothetical run of 1h32m time and a score of 5,500.

Estimated score = ((7200 - 5520) x (5500/1000)) + 5500 = 14,740. That's obviously incorrect.

Try my equation:

Score = [-2.05 x (5520 - 7200) + 2050] = 5,494.

Unless of course you've gotten something wrong or I have misinterpreted. Of course my equation is only valid for times <= 7200 and I am okay with that, after t=7200 score drops off dramatically down to the minimum of 20, as you said. People wanting to predict time required/score will be finishing under two hours anyway so the equation works just fine for them.

Also, I missed out a minus! The equation for score is actually:

Score = [-2.05 x (Time - 7200) + 2050]

.

My "points earned" are "raid points" from finishing stages and killing mobs, it is not raid score. It means 10x 200 + 50 for killing final boss = 2050:

Estimated Score = ((7200 - 5520) x (2050/1000)) + 2050 = 5494.

I wanted to make formula applicable to all trials, not just to DSA. That's why I have used raid points / 1000 instead of just 2.05.

Thank you for your work!

I have a curious question: are you working on an addon, which shows us our final score in live during a raid based on our time?

What idea I have is for example: when we enter DSA, we see our clean time and under this the MAX point, what we can earn with 0 minute inside and this point score will be counting down based on time spent in the DSA , score updated like in every 10 seconds, during the last 2 stages in all seconds.

Garkin

xherics wrote: »

I have a curious question: are you working on an addon, which shows us our final score in live during a raid based on our time?

What idea I have is for example: when we enter DSA, we see our clean time and under this the MAX point, what we can earn with 0 minute inside and this point score will be counting down based on time spent in the DSA , score updated like in every 10 seconds, during the last 2 stages in all seconds.

I can add it to the RaidTimer, but just for DSA and AA, I do not have numbers for Hel Ra and Sanctum Ophidia.

xMovingTarget

Garkin wrote: »

show previous quotes

xherics wrote: »

I have a curious question: are you working on an addon, which shows us our final score in live during a raid based on our time?

What idea I have is for example: when we enter DSA, we see our clean time and under this the MAX point, what we can earn with 0 minute inside and this point score will be counting down based on time spent in the DSA , score updated like in every 10 seconds, during the last 2 stages in all seconds.

I can add it to the RaidTimer, but just for DSA and AA, I do not have numbers for Hel Ra and Sanctum Ophidia.

That would be awesome anyway

xherics

Garkin wrote: »

show previous quotes

xherics wrote: »

I have a curious question: are you working on an addon, which shows us our final score in live during a raid based on our time?

What idea I have is for example: when we enter DSA, we see our clean time and under this the MAX point, what we can earn with 0 minute inside and this point score will be counting down based on time spent in the DSA , score updated like in every 10 seconds, during the last 2 stages in all seconds.

I can add it to the RaidTimer, but just for DSA and AA, I do not have numbers for Hel Ra and Sanctum Ophidia.

Awesome, thank you in advance in the name of all raiding guilds

Nifty2g

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162773/raiding-needs-to-be-fixed#latest

voice opinions in here and help try to get @ZOS to do the right thing and actually make pve COMPETITIVE

Nifty2g

Also @Paulington how much of a score would 49:30 get you? I'm bad with math

The_Saint

Nifty2g wrote: »

Also @Paulington how much of a score would 49:30 get you? I'm bad with math

((7200-2970)*(2050/1000))+2050 = 10721,5 points

The_Saint

Garkin wrote: »

show previous quotes

xherics wrote: »

I have a curious question: are you working on an addon, which shows us our final score in live during a raid based on our time?

What idea I have is for example: when we enter DSA, we see our clean time and under this the MAX point, what we can earn with 0 minute inside and this point score will be counting down based on time spent in the DSA , score updated like in every 10 seconds, during the last 2 stages in all seconds.

I can add it to the RaidTimer, but just for DSA and AA, I do not have numbers for Hel Ra and Sanctum Ophidia.

Oh yes. This would be great... And a function where you can put the score in you wants and a timer runs down...
I already hear the screamings in TS "FAAAAASTTER!! MORE DAMAAAAGE!!!"

xMovingTarget

The_Saint wrote: »

show previous quotes

Garkin wrote: »

xherics wrote: »

I have a curious question: are you working on an addon, which shows us our final score in live during a raid based on our time?

What idea I have is for example: when we enter DSA, we see our clean time and under this the MAX point, what we can earn with 0 minute inside and this point score will be counting down based on time spent in the DSA , score updated like in every 10 seconds, during the last 2 stages in all seconds.

I can add it to the RaidTimer, but just for DSA and AA, I do not have numbers for Hel Ra and Sanctum Ophidia.

Oh yes. This would be great... And a function where you can put the score in you wants and a timer runs down...
I already hear the screamings in TS "FAAAAASTTER!! MORE DAMAAAAGE!!!"

Raidlead should scream that anyway But you need to add NOOOOOOOBS after DAMAAAAGE.
Good old times @The_Saint

The_Saint

xMovingTarget wrote: »

show previous quotes

The_Saint wrote: »

Garkin wrote: »

xherics wrote: »

I have a curious question: are you working on an addon, which shows us our final score in live during a raid based on our time?

What idea I have is for example: when we enter DSA, we see our clean time and under this the MAX point, what we can earn with 0 minute inside and this point score will be counting down based on time spent in the DSA , score updated like in every 10 seconds, during the last 2 stages in all seconds.

I can add it to the RaidTimer, but just for DSA and AA, I do not have numbers for Hel Ra and Sanctum Ophidia.

Oh yes. This would be great... And a function where you can put the score in you wants and a timer runs down...
I already hear the screamings in TS "FAAAAASTTER!! MORE DAMAAAAGE!!!"

Raidlead should scream that anyway But you need to add NOOOOOOOBS after DAMAAAAGE.
Good old times @The_Saint

Kacknoob for you please^^<


and @garkin i will give you some informations about points in hell ra and so. We will have a few raids over the weekend.

xMovingTarget

The_Saint wrote: »

show previous quotes

xMovingTarget wrote: »

The_Saint wrote: »

Garkin wrote: »

xherics wrote: »

I have a curious question: are you working on an addon, which shows us our final score in live during a raid based on our time?

What idea I have is for example: when we enter DSA, we see our clean time and under this the MAX point, what we can earn with 0 minute inside and this point score will be counting down based on time spent in the DSA , score updated like in every 10 seconds, during the last 2 stages in all seconds.

I can add it to the RaidTimer, but just for DSA and AA, I do not have numbers for Hel Ra and Sanctum Ophidia.

Oh yes. This would be great... And a function where you can put the score in you wants and a timer runs down...
I already hear the screamings in TS "FAAAAASTTER!! MORE DAMAAAAGE!!!"

Raidlead should scream that anyway But you need to add NOOOOOOOBS after DAMAAAAGE.
Good old times @The_Saint

Kacknoob you mean^^

Only to certain individuals.

Garkin

Tonight I'm going to test modified version of RaidTimer in DSA (it's a weekly...)

As I don't like huge numbers, I have used this formula to get estimated final score:

(((time limit - elapsed time) * (current score / 1000)) + current score) + (((time limit - elapsed time) * (max score / 1000)) + max score) / 2

Lets say that you have just finished 5th stage, each stage was 6 minutes:
(((7200 - 5*6*60) * (5*200 / 1000)) + 5*200) + (((7200 - 5*6*60) * (2050 / 1000)) + 2050) / 2 = (6400 + 13120) / 2 = 9760

If you finish DSA and each stage was completed in 6 minutes:
((7200 - 10*6*60) * (2050 / 1000)) + 2050 = 9430

Its not 100% accurate, but it is the best what I could think of to get estimated final score at any time during the trial.

EDIT:
Old formula:
1st stage: 7,795
2nd stage: 9,163
...
not good enough.

New formula:
((time limit - (elapsed time * max score / current score)) * (max score / 1000)) + max score
1st stage: 9,245.5
2nd stage: 9,245.5
...
5th stage: 9,245.5
...
final score: 9430 (difference is because final stage is worth of 250 istead of 200 raid points)

xMovingTarget

Garkin wrote: »

Tonight I'm going to test modified version of RaidTimer in DSA (it's a weekly...)

As I don't like huge numbers, I have used this formula to get estimated final score:

(((time limit - elapsed time) * (current score / 1000)) + current score) + (((time limit - elapsed time) * (max score / 1000)) + max score) / 2

Lets say that you have just finished 5th stage, each stage was 6 minutes:
(((7200 - 5*6*60) * (5*200 / 1000)) + 5*200) + (((7200 - 5*6*60) * (2050 / 1000)) + 2050) / 2 = (6400 + 13120) / 2 = 9760

If you finish DSA and each stage was completed in 6 minutes:
((7200 - 10*6*60) * (2050 / 1000)) + 2050 = 9430

Its not 100% accurate, but it is the best what I could think of to get estimated final score at any time during the trial.

Thats fair enough with the limited api. Actually awesome you can make it giving out a close endscore prediction on the fly. This is going to make many ppl happy garkin

Saturn

A few more times have been added to the graph:

@Garkin provided three of his own:
4449 points --- 100.4843 minutes *Originally 100m 29s*
5364 points --- 93.5010 minutes *Originally 93m 3s*
5942 points --- 88.3507 minutes *Originally 88m 21s*

A friend of mine, @ZeroIndex, provided the time of his most recent run:
10113 points --- 54.4509 minutes *Originally 54m 27s*

This is the highest NA Daggerfall Covenant score (as of the 21st of April):
10447 points --- 51.7348 minutes *Originally 51m 44s*

Interestingly enough the three times provided by Garkin made the A value drop from being above -123 to being below.

Further, it is nice to see this post has gotten some more attention. Here is hoping that ZOS see this and change the current scoring system to one that awards skillful play. /fingerscrossed

silentgecko

Further Times from us:

61min 10 sek: 9286 Points
115min 31sek 2600 Points

Other Score i know:
52min 30sek: 10351

For Hel Ra / Sanctum:
I think in Hel Ra the timelimit is 30 Mins. And the Final Score is round about 6880 i think (was our last one). You get more Points in final when you kill all Gargoyles and stuff.

And i think for Sanctum it is 45 / 50 Mins. Don't know the Final Score yet, but will watch my recent streams to find out

Edit: Final Score for killing everything in Sanctum is 10.525 Points.

Garkin

silentgecko wrote: »

Further Times from us:

61min 10 sek: 9286 Points
115min 31sek 2600 Points

Other Score i know:
52min 30sek: 10351

For Hel Ra / Sanctum:
I think in Hel Ra the timelimit is 30 Mins. And the Final Score is round about 6880 i think (was our last one). You get more Points in final when you kill all Gargoyles and stuff.

And i think for Sanctum it is 45 / 50 Mins. Don't know the Final Score yet, but will watch my recent streams to find out

Edit: Final Score for killing everything in Sanctum is 10.525 Points.

I have added estimated score for DSA and AA to RaidTimer. If you know numbers, you can add support for other trials - you will have to edit this two tables:

local timeLimits = {
    [0] = 0,    --none
    [1] = 0,    --Hel Ra Citadel
    [2] = 1200, --Aetherian Archive
    [3] = 0,    --Sanctum Ophidia
    [4] = 7200, --Dragonstar Arena (Veteran)
}

local raidPoints = {
    [0] = 0,    --none
    [1] = 0,    --Hel Ra Citadel
    [2] = 7300, --Aetherian Archive
    [3] = 0,    --Sanctum Ophidia
    [4] = 2050, --Dragonstar Arena (Veteran)
}