Ongoing issues in Cyrodiil - Patch 1.4.5

okraus · September 2014

Dear developers and other ZOS employees,

again and again and again you make announcements in your patch notes which actually did not make it in the patch.
Correct me if i am wrong but notes like "we fixed a problem with keep doors" or "we fixed a problem which leads to crashes in cyrodiil" are nearly in every patch note you released in the recent past.
Really?! My issues with crashes in cyrodiil is worse then ever! Just to mention the "fix" of the restoration staff in the last patch notes. And i will not start with the performance problems that still exists.
There is a long list where you made an announcement but nothing was implemented in the patch or it was incomplete or it was totally wrong!

At the moment i am really angry about your announcement about pvp vendors in cyrodiil! You tell in your patch notes that you have added the missing VR14 items and bags - again (Note: you already anncounced this in your last patch notes and nothing was fixed)!

Fixed an issue where the Elite gear vendors in Cyrodiil were not selling VR13 gear, VR14 bows, or the Covenant’s Ice Staff.

I am playing on EU Server and we had the maintenance tonight. I checked the vendors in the morning and nothing absolutely nothing has changed. Where are the VR14 rings of the dominion set (10% weapon and spell critical)?
Where is the VR14 bow? Where are the VR14 bags? There is no system recognizable with pvp vendors and items. Sometimes there are VR10 versions - sometimes VR11. There is a whole bunch of VR14 items but some are missing even so there are parts of some sets in VR14 versions available. Short to say: this is a whole mess!
So i ask myself.. is the development department and QS/QA at zenimaxx this incompetent? That you announce stuff which obviously is not part of the patch? Or are you lying straight to the face of your customers?

I am not sure which option i find more irritating!

I know there are a lot more issues right now which need to be fixed. It is understandable that every player weighs the problems which directly effect him and his gameplay more then the other stuff.
Of course a player who does not play PvP does not care about the points i mentioned above. And it is understandable that i do not care about the problems with the nightblade skills and stealth because i do not play a NB. Well ok... i have
a little pity with my friends doing so and suffering of these problems for weeks and moths now.

But because PvP is my main focus i ask you directly to fix the itemization of pvp vendors as fast as possible.
Preferably with a hot fix! Personally i played a lot of pvp pre-patch to earn and save the AP to buy the new VR14 stuff just to learn that the VR14 content is incomplete and that you did not even look at pvp items when you developed the VR14 content.

I am an IT Project-Manager myself and in my current project i have a trainee for management assistance. I am sure my trainee could clean up all the mess with pvp vendors and make a complete and sound offering of pvp items in less then a day.
No, please... you see where i am heading? Implementing the correct and complete sets of pvp items for all necessary veteran levels is no magic. It is not a complex performance or crash issue with thousands of dependencies.
It is easy and straight forward - so just DO it! And do it right please - this time...

Cheers!

[Moderator Note: Adjusted title to encourage constructive conversation.

TehMagnus · September 2014

A little bit of both?

. And prolly the worst internal Quality/Testing team the planet has ever seen.

AreoHotah · September 2014

I agree OP.

Now get ready, LOLz community fanboi army incoming

daktary2001 · September 2014

While I agree with some of your statements. I cannot fathom the form.

You need to be more polite with other human being. You sir demonstrate a very bad empathy level for a "manager"

When I see your rant I can only think of this :

Sincerely,

An Union Representative.

daniel.ruiznrb18_ESO · September 2014

right now I think the best approach would be not to release the 'Patch Notes' but rather keep it blank for like 4 days until the players test the Game again and tell what has being corrected and what's broken after the patch.. just saying, players are already doing the test but someone else is writing down the patch notes.

okraus · September 2014

@AreoHotah‌

No problem

I am prepared. I told them about a shortcut to my thread introduced in patch 1.4.5. First problem is that it is behind a keep door which cannot be used and if by any chance the door is working nonetheless then the second problem is that it did not get implemented...

daniel.ruiznrb18_ESO · September 2014

okraus wrote: »

@AreoHotah‌

No problem

I am prepared. I told them about a shortcut to my thread introduced in patch 1.4.5. First problem is that it is behind a keep door which cannot be used and if by any chance the door is working nonetheless then the second problem is that it did not get implemented...

keep door is easy: if you switch your weapon and try again it works.. At least, was working like this for me that way after this last patch.

okraus · September 2014

Yes, sometimes weapon swapping helps but not always... not always...

When you defend a keep and have to enter in great hurry this bug is often your death... you die... no camp... great fun to ride again to the keep only to be late for the defense.
When you want to get out you can run upstairs and jump outside.

But really? Is that a professional fix/solution?

kevlarto_ESO · September 2014

I have played mmo's for many years and tested them for years, I have seen great patches on test servers and then when they go to live things that were not broken on test or worked on test, get broken on live something about live servers, one of the big problems here in ESO they never had enough testers, in house testing can make sure the mechanics work, but that's not the live environment.

daniel.ruiznrb18_ESO · September 2014

idk mate, seems as professional as all the other solutions they gave to many problems this game faces..

Elsonso · September 2014

It is odd that no one on the NA server noticed the VR14 vendor problem. At least, I do not recall seeing anyone mention it and a quick search did not reveal anything. Maybe something happened during the EU patch install?

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · September 2014

daktary2001 wrote: »

An Union Representative.

ZOS is probably unionised, that's often the reason for poor worker performance.

bellanca6561n · September 2014

Yes, there is a bit of the, "So, when did you stop beating your wife?" tone to the original post, but the point remains valid.

Fact is that few game development studios have a proper concept of Quality Assurance. They think it's play testing....or something. Odd, because many of these developers certainly go back to the Microprose days in Hunt Valley where the chief saving grace of their products was the fact they never crashed and their head of QA had veto power over releases....not easy to stand up to Wild Bill Stealey but he did.

Yet software quality was never exactly Bethesda's or Zenimax's "event."

It will have to be. I hear Al Roireau is still around.

Aenra · September 2014

- this is their first, collectively, MMO.
I could help you remember, if you were old enough at the time, how WoW, EQ1 or more recently SWTOR to name equivalents (in terms of collective prior experience) were when within their first few months of existence. Now do a comparison

- they listened and implemented changes that were outside their scheduled tasks, worked hard to get them in as fast as the above allowed for.
They do not think exactly like we think. They have to measure rate of updates versus the minor (or major) dissatisfaction of lack of thorough QA. Speed affects everyone, bugs going live affect only those currently subbed. No contest. Within measure obviously, but think about it

- while the above stands, they have (again because they listened) taken it upon themselves to re-"imagine" the VR levels. That is a huge task, and again, an unexpected one. This has been hapening while the above game updates are simultaneously developed. Strain

- again simultaneously with all the above, they have the parent company pushing them like crazy for the console port. That is millions waiting to cash themselves in. If you think daddy company is fine with an indefinite hold on this because "bugs"..you are sorely mistaken. Sadly. They have to do it all together

- last but not least, they have various audiences to think after. You got a huge percentage of people that never played MMOs before but came because TES, you got your raid freaks that have no alternative at the mo (WS showed them their e-peen is not that big after all), you got your PvP freaks whining like they do in all games (before they leave and the changes remain only for the rest of us), and you got your casuals. Another huge group there. They have to form a priorities list despite this, one that favours them all..^^

what i -do- blame them for is shallow, shallow thinking (direction, key concepts, etc); whomsoever has that responsibility has proven...a touch lacking. That i do blame them for. Most especially since the big names in ESO -did- have past experience in the genre. What you are characterising as incompetence is actually lack of solid thinking. It is the consequences of this absence that you are experiencing.
This is not incompetence. Just a sign of adaptation to demands above/outside their expectations. Adaptation is good, tells me i will subbed next month as well

see? The good and the bad

jeevin · September 2014

Surely there is a structure and plan in place of what they set out to achieve each patch. Between plan, code fix, test, implement and test again(before launch of said patch) there should be an"Okay guys we have managed to fix this, this and this but not these other things so this, this and this are what are in the patch and that is what we put on the patch notes".
At this stage I'm not really confident they can ever fix Cyrodiil. It would be nice if there was some more communication too but thats just too much to ask...

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs · September 2014

Every time i try to play ESO...crash boom bang ..lala...

i hit the road and then i hit a wall...crash booom bang..

thats the naaaame of the gaaame, it has always beeen the same..

"all to gether now"

have you had enough, are you giving up noooow..

cos everytime i try to play ESO....crash boooom banng lllaaallla

TehMagnus · September 2014

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I have played mmo's for many years and tested them for years, I have seen great patches on test servers and then when they go to live things that were not broken on test or worked on test, get broken on live something about live servers, one of the big problems here in ESO they never had enough testers, in house testing can make sure the mechanics work, but that's not the live environment.

So this is how testing works in IT development:

Usually, when developing something, you have multiple different environments, the DEV env where developers code the new functionalities and do unitary testing. The FAT one (Factory Acceptance Testing): testing done by the testing team who works with the devs. UAT (user acceptance testing), which is done by the project team and (sometimes the business), I guess we could say it's the PTS in this case (maybe not). Then you have a preproduction environment (PPD) where you deploy your patch prior to making it live and where all should be tested again and at last you have the production environment (PRD) aka live server.

The important things in the testing process is UAT and PPD testing because PPD environment should be "ISO" (exactly the same server configuration with live data for testing purposes) with the PRD and usually a lot of things are missed in FAT since the guys testing are not end users so they tend to miss a lot of stuff. You should have a testing team in UAT and PPD that checks every single ticket that makes it to the patch notes and verifies if it's working.

All this of course can vary from project to project, i.e. you don't always have FAT and UAT together but only one of them. Some projects might even have less testing (but they're not doing it right).

As long as your patch works in UAT and especially if it works in PPD, there is almost no way (90-95% no way) it won't work on live server unless your PPD environment is not ISO (and then it's once again because you're not doing it right).

There is always room for untested bugs that weren't discovered, it always happens, but it's not possible, when done right, to release a new version with broken things that where supposed to be fixed and appear fixed in the patch notes.

Either ZOS has 2 guys alone doing all the testing, either the guy leading/organizing the testing should get a new job or more power/resources to do his job right.

bellanca6561n · September 2014

Well said, Aenra!

The name they had for EQ1 was Ever Crash. Funny part was their honchos were at Game Developers on launch day and they all had to madly scramble back to San Diego when it went boom.

I'm convinced this game will improve. It will never be an MMO but, then again, World of Warcraft was never an MMO either. It was sold as one and lots of people bought it, so to speak.

ThePonzzz · September 2014

I think the more troubling issues are the updates that aren't in the patch notes that feel like they were slipped in.

I went from being able to play this game on high graphical settings, to not being able to play on medium anymore. For the last 2 and a half months, all I've done is run around to research, buy/sell, and loot town containers. This started back with the lighting updates.

Obviously, my system is a little old and isn't quite geared to play ESO at top performance, but I've posted about lag spikes that crash my internet connection and odd audio issues (which happen before I crash) a couple times. I've not been met with any sort of help with the situation.

The only solution is I've purchased a new rig, which I hope gets delivered soon. It's time to retire Evoker (my PC), may he find greener pastures in my closet.

Elsonso · September 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

There is always room for untested bugs that weren't discovered, it always happens, but it's not possible, when done right, to release a new version with broken things that where supposed to be fixed and appear fixed in the patch notes.

This is a bit misleading. The part that is misleading is that "done right" does not happen as often as people want it to happen. The whole premise behind QA is that things are never "done right".

As you have outlined in your note, the purpose of QA is to be inserted into places where things that are not "done right" can be identified and, if deemed necessary, corrected.

I am not here to apologize for what Zenimax is doing. I don't know what they are doing well enough to do that. I can immediately identify things that they could do to improve quality, so I do think they are doing it wrong.

That said, there are simple reasons why patch notes can be wrong and why fixes do not appear to fix things. It has nothing to do with Zenimax, specifically, and everything to do with how many development shops work.

For example:

The majority of bugs are fixed because someone identifies a specific behavior that exhibits the bug. In small shops, this is some developer, but in Zenimax I am guessing this is a QA person. Some "developer" (UI, software, animation, etc) will then take this and develop a fix that is merged into the product, verified by QA, approved, and scheduled for release. This can take days.

The catch, in the case of customer reported problems, is that the bug that QA found may not be the same bug that the customer found. It may look the same, sound the same, and act the same, but there may be more than one bug. The fix may be absolutely valid and definitely fix what QA saw, and not fix a thing from the perspective of the customer.

Aenra · September 2014

Life was never fair. I privately compained about new MMOs being more and more demanding, but..life is never fair. You want the goodies, sometimes you have to fork up. Should..again..life be "unfair" to you, you cannot expect everyone else to suffer along with understanding

Now as far as those who -have- forked it up..I see people saying they have i7s and suffer. They neglect to mention -which- i7 they own. From top to bottom, the difference is vast. Won't even touch laptop owners, their fault for buying something just because it's the trend of the times. Find any geek worth their salt and ask them about gaming laptops..ie whose fault is it ^^

my own rig?
asus crosshair v formula z motherboard
fx9370 (8core) at 4400 default
asus gtx770 (one, no sli)
16gb @1600 corsair vengeance pro rams
nothing special, a lot less than 2k down here to build from scratch (towers, cooling, et al). Got it all topped up ingame, got it all topped up outside the game (nvdia ctrpl). No stutter, no FPS loss, no overheating

- i learned how to build them right (motherboard, power supply, architecture, cooling, etc etc)
- i learned how to set them up right (OS and related) and how to maintain them (registry, file allocation, maintenance)
- mind you this is an AMD powering it. Am by default at a disadvantage compared to intel owners

ZOS_TristanK · September 2014

Hi, folks. First, we wanted to let you know that we have adjusted the this thread's title to foster more constructive and focused conversation. While we do understand your frustration, we do not want this thread to stray into bashing, insulting, and flaming.

That said, we want to ask you a couple of questions, @okraus, to investigate what might be happening with the vendors. First, are you making sure to head to the elite vendor in Cyrodiil? There is only one elite vendor per alliance per campaign. Also, is your character VR14?

Additionally, we are continuing our efforts to clean up performance and crashing issues in Cyrodiil. This process is ongoing and something that we are addressing incrementally with new patches. We know that it's frustrating to see performance issues, but we can assure you that we are working on this.

okraus · September 2014

@ZOS_TristanK‌

Yes, my character is VR14.
I am playing in the aldmeri dominion and i know that the elite vendor is in Eastern Elsweyr Gate under the merchants pavillion.
Her name is Shadura and i know her very well because i visit her a lot in the recent past.
I must admit that i found the VR14 bow after taking a closer look.But i could not find any VR14 bags, any VR13 gear which you announced in the patch notes and most importantly the VR14 rings of the Wrath of the Imperium Set are missing.

See this screenshot:

Best version you can buy is a VR10 dominion ring from the non elite vendor.
And the version with 10% melee crit the Deadly Strike Set is also missing the rings.
All other sets (i think) have their VR14 versions of rings and/or amulets.

Just contact me - i am happily of any assistance. Also ingame if you like.

Cheers!

LonePirate · September 2014

lordrichter wrote: »

It is odd that no one on the NA server noticed the VR14 vendor problem. At least, I do not recall seeing anyone mention it and a quick search did not reveal anything. Maybe something happened during the EU patch install?

Wrong! This NA player posted about it yesterday in addition to logging a /feedback item on it.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/133993/expand-the-jewelry-selections-for-the-pvp-gear-sets

The issue here is that the actual list of itens sold has not changed much at all apart from the items specifically listed in the latest patch notes. I logged a /bug issue on the PTS back in August on these elite vendor problems which were just fixed and about the absence of VR13 and VR14 blue mystery boxes - a problem still present in the game today.

I don't know if I have been the only player logging the issues; but I guarantee you that I have been logging bugs on the issues.

Artorious · September 2014

Aenra wrote: »

- this is their first, collectively, MMO.
I could help you remember, if you were old enough at the time, how WoW, EQ1 or more recently SWTOR to name equivalents (in terms of collective prior experience) were when within their first few months of existence. Now do a comparison

Stopped reading right after there. Why are you even comparing this game to 10-15 year old MMOs? What is your point? If games failed to deliver at launch, 15 years ago, they should fail now too? How about, should they fail in the future too? Your point is moot.

If you sell something, and if it clearly has problems, people will complain (whether they still like the product or not) - I don't know how hard that is to understand. You go and pay for a movie, only later find out that seats are bad or broken, you will complain. To still watch that movie you paid for, will be up to you, you might still watch it, but you will definitely complain.

In another post of yours, below that one, mentions how 'life is not fair blah' - this is not life, it's a game. Moreover, it's a product, something that we pay for, so we expect it to be 'fair'.

(Sorry to bash on your posts, but after seeing so many posts like these, similar or not, I fail to see any reasonable logic behind them)

ozmorgudduth · September 2014

LonePirate wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

It is odd that no one on the NA server noticed the VR14 vendor problem. At least, I do not recall seeing anyone mention it and a quick search did not reveal anything. Maybe something happened during the EU patch install?

Wrong! This NA player posted about it yesterday in addition to logging a /feedback item on it.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/133993/expand-the-jewelry-selections-for-the-pvp-gear-sets

The issue here is that the actual list of itens sold has not changed much at all apart from the items specifically listed in the latest patch notes. I logged a /bug issue on the PTS back in August on these elite vendor problems which were just fixed and about the absence of VR13 and VR14 blue mystery boxes - a problem still present in the game today.

I don't know if I have been the only player logging the issues; but I guarantee you that I have been logging bugs on the issues.

I have logged VR14 weapons wrong values on PTS back in 1.4.0.
In 1.4.4 they were still wrong.

VR14 2H sword had VR12 sword's damage, can't tell if the enchantment was correct but it was higher than VR12's version so I assume it could have been VR14 sword with VR13 or VR14 enchantment value.

Today the sword is gone, Elite Vendor has only VR13 swords left. Guess what I have bought the bugged VR14 a week ago, Nobody else can have it at the moment.

Say what you want about how the whole process is being done but it's a proper mess and it's just the values on the items. This is not a hard to track bug that requires hours of testing to be reproduced. It's clearly visible that the items are not there, and the values haven't been scaled up...

Yes scaled up, that VR13 2H sword damage value is wrong in comparison to my VR12 bought about a month ago, both swords have same damage...

Whoever is doing this hasn't got a clue what he is doing. The bug has been reported on PTS over a month ago, it has been reported on Live straight after update 4 and it's still broken, these are just some 2 digit values...

Durham · September 2014

okraus wrote: »

Dear developers and other ZOS employees,

again and again and again you make announcements in your patch notes which actually did not make it in the patch.
Correct me if i am wrong but notes like "we fixed a problem with keep doors" or "we fixed a problem which leads to crashes in cyrodiil" are nearly in every patch note you released in the recent past.
Really?! My issues with crashes in cyrodiil is worse then ever! Just to mention the "fix" of the restoration staff in the last patch notes. And i will not start with the performance problems that still exists.
There is a long list where you made an announcement but nothing was implemented in the patch or it was incomplete or it was totally wrong!

At the moment i am really angry about your announcement about pvp vendors in cyrodiil! You tell in your patch notes that you have added the missing VR14 items and bags - again (Note: you already anncounced this in your last patch notes and nothing was fixed)!

Fixed an issue where the Elite gear vendors in Cyrodiil were not selling VR13 gear, VR14 bows, or the Covenant’s Ice Staff.

I am playing on EU Server and we had the maintenance tonight. I checked the vendors in the morning and nothing absolutely nothing has changed. Where are the VR14 rings of the dominion set (10% weapon and spell critical)?
Where is the VR14 bow? Where are the VR14 bags? There is no system recognizable with pvp vendors and items. Sometimes there are VR10 versions - sometimes VR11. There is a whole bunch of VR14 items but some are missing even so there are parts of some sets in VR14 versions available. Short to say: this is a whole mess!
So i ask myself.. is the development department and QS/QA at zenimaxx this incompetent? That you announce stuff which obviously is not part of the patch? Or are you lying straight to the face of your customers?

I am not sure which option i find more irritating!

I know there are a lot more issues right now which need to be fixed. It is understandable that every player weighs the problems which directly effect him and his gameplay more then the other stuff.
Of course a player who does not play PvP does not care about the points i mentioned above. And it is understandable that i do not care about the problems with the nightblade skills and stealth because i do not play a NB. Well ok... i have
a little pity with my friends doing so and suffering of these problems for weeks and moths now.

But because PvP is my main focus i ask you directly to fix the itemization of pvp vendors as fast as possible.
Preferably with a hot fix! Personally i played a lot of pvp pre-patch to earn and save the AP to buy the new VR14 stuff just to learn that the VR14 content is incomplete and that you did not even look at pvp items when you developed the VR14 content.

I am an IT Project-Manager myself and in my current project i have a trainee for management assistance. I am sure my trainee could clean up all the mess with pvp vendors and make a complete and sound offering of pvp items in less then a day.
No, please... you see where i am heading? Implementing the correct and complete sets of pvp items for all necessary veteran levels is no magic. It is not a complex performance or crash issue with thousands of dependencies.
It is easy and straight forward - so just DO it! And do it right please - this time...

Cheers!

[Moderator Note: Adjusted title to encourage constructive conversation.

Seriously they dont care about the pvp zone...Most people who play PVP stay completely amazed at the inaction and performance issues that are going on..

We are still lagging..
We are still having ability lag.
Crashes at least 2 times a night..
Pop imbalance due to pve bonus recieved for home campaigns..
Q times due to imbalance
Forward camp abuses
AOE spam issues
And the list goes on........

LonePirate · September 2014

ozmorgudduth wrote: »

Whoever is doing this hasn't got a clue what he is doing. The bug has been reported on PTS over a month ago, it has been reported on Live straight after update 4 and it's still broken, these are just some 2 digit values...

I agree completely! The itemization ball was dropped big time with 1.4 and it has yet to bounce back up. We can only hope ZOS fixes this stuff soon, although I am not sure the word "soon" is in their lexicon.

okraus · September 2014

Ah - i forgot the VR14 rings for restoration staff set (i forgot the name right now) are also missing.
And just to mention: it is common knowledge that magicka/stamina and health do have a ration of 1.5 - which means 10 magicka/stamina corresponds to 15 health for example. This is true for your attribute points; this is true for armor enchantments (glyphs); and so on - but... of course there is a but... of course it is not consistent in item design. There are for example rings at the pvp vendors with 80 magicka and the equivalent ring (same level) with "healthy" trait has also 80 health on it. I do not mean the enchantment. You can replace that of course. I mean the "traits" on the jewels - they do not follow the 1.5 ration that works in all other areas of itemization but not here. Otherwise the ring with the "health" trait should have 120 health on it!
What is the result? The result is that rings with "health" trait are inferior to magicka rings.
Another fact you can add to this mess :-(

Aoife32001 · October 2014

We are still lagging..
We are still having ability lag.
Crashes at least 2 times a night..
Q times due to imbalance

I wonder to what extent these issues have to do with everyone trying to cram into Thronblade? Surely that isn't the sole cause, but I have noticed that I have never experienced any of these problems in PvP, but all my PvP is on Blackwater Blade. ZoS can do more to address these issues, but players also cause a lot of these issues, I suspect. If players spread out between Thornblade and Azura's Star, I bet a lot of the above issues would be significantly mitigated.

... But I know what all of you will say to this: ZoS creates and incentivizes this problem by allowing PvP buffs to transfer outside of the home server. You're right!

Pop imbalance due to pve and pvp bonus recieved for home campaigns.

(bold text added)

This is a huge issue, but one which ZoS has already said they're going to address at least partially by restricting PvP bonuses to the home PvP campaign in an upcoming patch. Granted, they said they haven't decided yet whether or not to exclude it from PvE, but restricting it to home PvP campaigns will go a long way I think toward addressing campaign imbalances... assuming players stop trying to all cram into one server.

A lot of these problems are created by the hyper-competitive must-win players. ZoS needs to address issues on its end, but the blame for some of these problems goes both ways.

kevlarto_ESO · October 2014

pvp in large battles, siege weapons no longer work, or they don't even drop at all, stuck in weapons animations, or run animations, as much as I enjoy ESO, and the pvp, I hope these issues are on the top of the dev's fix list.