Ojustaboo wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Exactly, you are spot on there my friend. Does anybody really believe that Zenimax would be doing these changes without a damn good reason? They wouldn't be doing it based on some forum poll, that's for sure. The only reason they are making these changes is to spark interest and try to populate the VR zones with players again. Granted, there are a lot of other changes they need to do to improve the VR content, but in the meantime, this is the easiest thing they can do to get players back they may have lost before because of the VR grind.

You have far too much faith in ZoS. They had all that time in BETA to address the problems with the game that were reported pre launch but didn't. This is a knee jerk reaction to falling subs under the assumption that difficulty is the main reason. Its not. I don't believe for a minute that the majority of those that have unsubed did so due to the difficulty. Not when there was a hundred other issues that are also present in the game.

They have lost subs for FPS issues (especially in cryo)
They have lost subs for Lag issues (especially in trials)
They have lost subs for boring vet grind issues
They have lost subs for poor customer support
They have lost subs for log in issues (301)
......


I could go on.

The point is, no one I have ever spoke to said they are or have unsubed due to difficulty.

And they just lost my sub for the vet nerf, was happy to pay as it was different to all the other mmos out there, but now this is going the same old way.

A week ago I would have said I would be here for years, 1 - 50 was far too easy, I was liking the vet content.

Sure it needed a lot of work, certain classes being fairly useless there, but the overall difficulty was never the problem.

Last night in Grahtwood, I died a couple of times in the evening, both due to my mistakes, 2 mobs were easy, I rarely had to think, 3 mobs I had to concentrate, more I had to be very careful but it was fun. I completed the dungeon like quest in the Bone
Orchard, I died once and that was me being stupid.

I am far far far from a good player. But I like having to think, having to concentrate, going through content simply pressing one or two buttons isn't fun and there's plenty of mmos not requiring subs that I can do that if I want.

I've been looking forward to ESO for years based on what the devs etc have said, it wasn't going to follow the crowd. Sadly that doesn't appear to be the case.

Yup I cancelled on Friday as soon as the announcement was made.

I feel exactly as you do. I would consider myself bragging if I called myself even average. VR was not hard.

The thing is, those of us who are enjoying it and don't think that still not being in spitting distance of level cap (highest character is VR7) after only 3 months of play is a bad thing, we are the ones who would have stuck around.

Those guys who think it is grindy...how much longevity will they have?

Maybe long-term custom isn't the goal any more, in which case I guess gamers like us may as well stick to single player games which at least give us some choice of combat difficulty usually, even if the 'puzzles' are designed for the lowest of IQs.

The original poster is the minority but doesn't even realize it. Minority opinion in every case he mentioned. Even the beginner area situation. Most were ok with them making the option to skip available but not the standard and not the way they implemented it. They did it backwards and jacked up the story line as a result. What they should have done was keep the beginning exactly as it was and simply put a npc there for those wanting to opt out. Instead they have you skip 2 zones, not just one, by default to appear in the city as the minority asked for and then had to waste bug fixing time to reset levels and experience gain on everything through stonefalls or it's equivalent. A total waste of resources. Going there now is like some kind of out of place side quest just for completion value and shards.

70% have already left the game due to vet content and cyrodiil issues. I would say that is most definitely a majority. Vet content did need changed but again they have messed up in how to do it. All they really needed to change was the stupid one shot damage alot of the vet mobs do. Crap hitting you for 1600-2600 damage was bs. That was really all they needed to fix and instead have made a mistake of doing this across the board 33% cut to mob hp and dps.

Dude... The only time you see an overwhelming vote for a poll not to change VR content is when the only options on the poll are:

1. Is Vet content too Hard?
2. VR content is fine

Which is an exceedingly skewed and flawed poll, simply because the main issue with Vet content is not "Only" that it is exceedingly difficult for over 45% of the player base (Not exactly a minority), But because it is not balanced in one way or another.

Some problems with VR content:

* Difficulty while soloing in many areas forces certain specific cookie cutter builds to complete most content. Which violates the games policy of "Play as you want, How you want".

* VR rewards are exceedingly lacking.

* VR content is designed solely for groups, not solo players, ensuring that nearly half the player base can not enjoy it as these individuals do not "want" to group. "And they shouldn't have to simply to "Level" their character."

* Many of the mobs are too close together meaning even if they are solo-able, aggro from other mobs is far too easy.

* Many of the trash mobs are harder then many of the Bosses.

* The VR content is more of a grind, boring and not worth the effort in general.

When you have an actual fair poll which simply asked if the content needs re-balancing, or if you believe VR content is not working as intended, the overwhelming 80% response is YES VR content IS broken.

YOU are in the minority my friend, ZOS does pay attention to the minority, but when over 80% of the player base says VR content is broken in one way or another, they are going to fix it.

Some people remembers me of the american tea party. Less then 10% but thinking they speak for over 90%.
The board is never representing the same amount of players. Only enthusiasts, fans and hardcore are trolling around here for over 90%. So this is never the majority or even close to it.

Hilgara wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

Dude... The only time you see an overwhelming vote for a poll not to change VR content is when the only options on the poll are:

1. Is Vet content too Hard?
2. VR content is fine

Which is an exceedingly skewed and flawed poll, simply because the main issue with Vet content is not "Only" that it is exceedingly difficult for over 45% of the player base (Not exactly a minority),

errm.....what lol

The poll hes referring to with the Minority desiring a change is one that simply and only has 2 options, is it too hard, or is it fine (Or something like that).

I believe 45% said it was too hard. And 55% said it wasn't.

However on the other poll, which state "Is VR content perfect the way it is, Does VR content need Re-balancing in one way or another, Or Other post your opinion" (or something), 80% of the players state that Yes VR content needs re-balancing in one way or another.

As I stated Difficulty, is not the only issue, so it would be asinine to assume that difficulty is the only reason ZOS chose to nerf/change VR content, because it obviously isn't.

I don't think it's a minority, evidently the numbers that ZOS have are different from what we think. fact is, they had to choose between a niche quality game and subs, they chose subs. Can't really blame them though seen how the forums are..

Malpherian wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

Dude... The only time you see an overwhelming vote for a poll not to change VR content is when the only options on the poll are:

1. Is Vet content too Hard?
2. VR content is fine

Which is an exceedingly skewed and flawed poll, simply because the main issue with Vet content is not "Only" that it is exceedingly difficult for over 45% of the player base (Not exactly a minority),

errm.....what lol

The poll hes referring to with the Minority desiring a change is one that simply and only has 2 options, is it too hard, or is it fine (Or something like that).

I believe 45% said it was too hard. And 55% said it wasn't.

However on the other poll, which state "Is VR content perfect the way it is, Does VR content need Re-balancing in one way or another, Or Other post your opinion" (or something), 80% of the players state that Yes VR content needs re-balancing in one way or another.

As I stated Difficulty, is not the only issue, so it would be asinine to assume that difficulty is the only reason ZOS chose to nerf/change VR content, because it obviously isn't.

45% is a minority, thats just a fact. Most people think vet content needs changes but thats doesn't mean it needs nerfed. If you were to run a poll saying " do you think vet content is boring" you would get a better picture of why its empty. Something that wont change after today.

most casual players spend very little time on the forums.

that being said one issue with this game is that it was very easy 1-50, then a bit challenging vr1-12. a guildmate congratulated another on reaching VR1 by saying grats on completing the tutorial.

if you like the casualness of 1-50 VR ranks felt like a wall and often were not fun. if you like the tougher difficulty, you may well have quite since the early game was so easy. then with endgame pretty much being pvp, you have 3 very different games within one game.

massive gameplay differences would seem, imo, to make it difficult to keep players. if you like one type, but not the others it seems quite possible that you might leave the game during the gameplay you dont enjoy. you might not even realize the gameplay changes to one you like later.

in short this is clearly a damned if you do, damned if you dont scenario.

These forums are a minority of the player base, and any polls here are hardly concrete evidence of anything.

Lunerdog wrote: »

The silent majority is exactly that, the Majority.

They don't vote in polls on forums, they vote with their feet and their wallets, Zen will do as any business will do and follow the money.

Well said. Despite what some say, the upper veteran zones were ghost towns. I know this because I play in them every day. Zenimax most likely noticed the same, hence the changes.

Q: Why is Zennimax changing Vet Content?

A: They do like subscribers and their subscriptions.

Q: Will the changes help with acquiring/retaining subscriptions?

This, ladies and gents, is the 300 (give or take 100) Million dollar question.

I guess time WILL tell.

Dig in for a long series of diametrically opposed balancing changes in smaller and smaller increments, until either some sort of sweet spot is reached (if it should exist), or they scrap it all and start from scratch. They will revamp eventually down the line if they find their balance not to be indefinitely scalable (e.g. VR50 onwards). At least this is how it's always happened in other MMOs I know of.

Kulthax wrote: »

To those quitting because the game was made a bit easier to level in; were you really invested at all? It is such a trivial thing to cancel your sub over.

No its not.

Many many people have played mmo type games for many years.

Sadly in that time they have witnessed many sub based challenging games go F2P.

Every time this has happened, existing players raised their concerns.

Every time they are assured by the devs etc that it wont be made pay to win. there won't be content in the store that gives you an advantage over what's available in game. The end game raids etc will still be a top priority etc etc etc.

And without exception the changes started out small, but within a very shortish period of time everything the devs said wouldn't happen, happened.

A new generation of players joined the game as it cost them zero to do so. A percentage of those spent a LOT of money in the store and the suits at these various mmo companies saw what a cash cow the store was and made aiming content to that group of players the number one top priority.

And that group tended to be the ones demanding all content be accessible regardless of skill level. Quick ways to get everything.

And without exception we ended up with a very very dumbed down game that was no longer any fun to play, rarely any challenging end group content being produced etc

Players who had often invested hrs a day often every day of the week for 5+ years, suddenly found their hobby ripped from them, they had zero reason to log in and play as all the fun had been taken away from them.

Which is why you get so many people say that if ESO ever went F2P they would leave, They know exactly how the game would end up. But it's beginning to look like it will end up this way without going F2P

Many many mmo players came to ESO based on what was promised. As I've said before, it was me playing both the fighters guild and the mages guild quest in beta before they were nerfed that made me think "wow, at last a new mmo that gives challenging content" and it was those two fights that gave me the desire to pre-order.

And when I mentioned what made me pre-order many people agreed with me in the beta forums.

Both have been completely nerfed now. Sure there were loads of complaints that it was too hard, but for instance the fighters guild Doshia, once you understood how the orbs worked, it became much much easier. Plenty of people gave advice to those struggling on the beta forums. I died numerous times, I lost count how many, but once I worked out the orbs, it became a very very very good and even fight.

Last week a guild mate said the following about Doshia

"She died in 3 hits before she even turned into a harvester, I had my ultimate prepared, pots ready to go, bah nothing, this used to be such an awesome fight"

And said how sad they were about the nerf. The only two really challenging solo fights level 1 - 49 that made you use block etc, nerfed to easy mode.

And now the vet content made easier.

People aren't unsubbing because of those two things, they are unsubbing because they know it's a case of "here we go again"

They know it will not stop here (and they know that difficulty wasn't the real problem with vet stuff)

I expected to be here in 5 years time, I spent over that in Lotro and only left when it got dumbed down so much you could go AFK for 10 mins and still not die in most fights (and sadly I'm not exaggerating).

But I am not going to invest my money and time in this game if after 3 months they have already done two major nerfs to difficulty as I know this won't be the end.

I know it wont be too long before people demand they should be able to experience Craglorn solo (I've already seen a fair few posts saying all content should have a solo option and for the same reward)

When I play through a game, I read up on skills on the internet, get given advice from guild mates etc (I'm useless at working out the numbers for myself, but there are plenty of people who do work this stuff out and plenty of info and suggestions for different builds out there), I unlock certain skills, I learn to craft, I craft armour etc,

I don't want someone telling me if it's too easy unequip everything, I could just as well say if it's too hard, respec or group up. I should be able to do veteran content with the gear the game gives out and it be a challenging experience.

Yes balancing was needed of certain classes/skills, not the whole overall difficulty nerfed.

The amount of the sub is irrelevant, I would happily pay £30 a month to a game I see a long term future in, I'm not going to spend £1 in one where I cant currently play PvP due to the frame rate issue and the vet content I am currently really enjoying (I'm vet 3) is being made easier.

For the same money I'm paying to Zenimax, I could sub to Sonys open all access pass and have access to all of these: EverQuest, EverQuest II, DC Universe Online , PlanetSide 2 , Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, and the upcoming EverQuest Next, Landmark and H1Z1 and get 500 points a month to spend in their store.

I have been very very patient with Zenimax, the first month of game play was bugged and bot filled beyond belief. The second month was a lot better, I took an alt through the same areas as the first month and it was like playing a different game.

But if after just 3 months they are dumbing the game down this much, I know what it will be like in 6 months, 9 months etc and there's other games (and other things entirely) I would rather invest my time in if this is the case.

I simply don't have faith that this wont happen based on every other game I've played and based on what Zenimax has done so far.

So its far from a trivial thing for me to cancel my sub which I did after reading how easy it had become on the NA server, far from me not being invested, I would have been happily subbing for years , unlike I suspect a lot of those demanding things made easier.

I have been getting into the ESO lore (have got a load of vids explaining different parts which I've been working through) and I really did think this would be my long term home.

I'm not necessarily quitting, I unsubbed today as my sub is due in 2 days time and I did so while I remembered. But if after the EU patch tomorrow, the vet content is anything like how many have described it today, I will be thinking very very hard on whether I want to continue investing time in ESO.

I belong to a great guild and enjoy PvP with them a couple of nights a week, that is a huge plus point. But I've been through the dumbing down and false promises so many times before, I'm not sure I have the willpower to invest 5 hrs a night 7 nights a week for something that is likely to become faceroll sooner rather than later.

And the above is why many people have come out of the woodwork so loudly about this since it was announced, we thought and were told ESO wasn't following the crowd, was going to be different, I'm simply not sure I have the willpower to face nerf after nerf over the coming months.

I also like to slowly level up alts in mmoi as I play them, and when your going through the same quests/mobs, you already have an advantage over the first time you faced them, so nothing worse than them already being dumbed down.

And on top of that we still have all the other problems such as the constant Emperor farming in PvP making getting Emperor pointless

Audigy wrote: »

The answer is that no, Elitist leaving the game is a good thing. ESO is not the game type or genre for elitist players. That may sound biased, cruel, or downright make me an ***, But it's stil true. the TES franchise has NEVER been a supporter of Elitist players.

ES actually inhabits a lot of Elitism, look at all the mods. Do you honestly think casuals would spend thousands of hours in modding?

This is what the nerds do and it was like that since Morrowind if I recall. The ES crowd is pretty hardcore in many ways.

There are tons of mods on the market for Skyrim that push the difficulty to an absolute limit, dragons that one shot every NPC they hit, mods where you must shoot 1k arrows into a troll to kill it etc. Besides that are many mods designed in such a way that you go through a real day & night cycle in the game so that your Char has to eat at 8, take a nap at 12 etc.

ESO does have a tiny Elite group as well, but those are not affected by these changes as I said a million times before. They are more than happy to battle in the leaderboards at Cyrodil and the Trials. They don't give a damn about VR zones to be honest.


The people that are hit by the nerf are Casuals and nobody else. If you don't intend to raid or do hardcore pvp as most Casuals wont, then the only current content for you to enjoy is VR 1-10.

The reason for this is quite simple. You can play whenever you want and how you want without sacrificing your RL for a guild or a group.
There is no group leader going to tell you how you need to spec or that you are too slow or that you cant look after your daughter now. VR´s inhabit the term "play as you want" perfectly and that's why it was a Casuals friend. Some details should had been tweaked for sure, but to completely destroy the meaning of VR´s is wrong.

With the massive nerf now, content that was supposed to last for months will be done in days or weeks, it might even turn Casuals away from the game totally due the lack of brain activity involved while playing.

This isn't witchcraft you know, this is history that repeats itself. The loss of 6 million players at WOW was due the nerf policy by Blizzard and only god knows how many people are going to leave ESO now due the nerf. Those that leave however will not be the Elite players as you thought, it will be the Casual.

I am a Modder myself so yes that type of elitism exists, and Bethesda caters to it, I meant the type of Elitism where people get their panties in a wad if the rabbit can't 2 shot you like in Monty Python and The holy grail.

NerfEverything wrote: »

mutharex wrote: »

I don't think it's a minority, evidently the numbers that ZOS have are different from what we think. fact is, they had to choose between a niche quality game and subs, they chose subs. Can't really blame them though seen how the forums are..

To assume that ZOS has made a decision based on facts and numbers is pretty bold. Especially considering they have set a precedent of doing the exact opposite.

The VR difficulty change is a band-aid fix. The problem with VR levels was never difficulty, it was always the boredom factor. Forcing people to spend less time being bored is not a permanent solution, it is a temporary fix to stop the bleeding.

The folks who run ZOS have far more damn experience in software development, customer service and business acumen than you or just about any other whiner on these forums will *ever* have.

Now, that's not to say ZOS is perfect or anywhere near it; not so. But to read all of the whining on these forums from folks who think they could run ZOS better than, well, ZOS, or design ESO better than, well, ZOS, is delusional. Unless you're a developer working at a studio or running your own shop, then just hush.

As for boredom, what? I guess you have no idea how to role play, do you? That's what I've been doing since starting Cadwell's Silver, and it's working admirably for me so far. On top of that, it actually pays to read/listen to what Cadwell says prior to beginning Cadwell's Silver. It added to the role play element for me.

As for my role play world, I simply imagine that whenever my character is in another alliance's territory, she's simply shifted into a parallel timeline and, as such, people don't recognize her as the now en-souled Vestige. Hell, for all I know, they probably "see" her as, in my case, an Altmer in the Aldemeri Dominion and a Nord in the Ebonheart Pact, despite the fact that, in her original reality, she's an Imperial battlemage.

But, hey, your mileage may vary.

The amount of butthurt over content that while interesting the first time through, doesn't warrant the butthurt of carrying if someone does it easier cracks me up.

mutharex wrote: »

I don't think it's a minority, evidently the numbers that ZOS have are different from what we think. fact is, they had to choose between a niche quality game and subs, they chose subs. Can't really blame them though seen how the forums are..

---

>>>fact is, they had to choose between a ..."

Or, they simply did what was expedient and least expensive, without regard to their professional public image or the name they were trying to make for themselves via the commitment they made in advertising to vet MMO players as well as those focused primarily on soloing.

What they said in dev interviews, advertisements, info passed on fansites and other pre-launch promo's was very definitely shaped to include a call to vet MMO'rs, not ONLY former TES console players. There were definitive descriptions pre-launch of levels 1 - 50 being the most solo-friendly, and Vet zones to be possibly solo, but to include interesting, challenging content that would be obviously more successful if grouped for.

I have to ask this as I'm genuinely curious/cannot figure it out:

For those who truly wanted the Veteran zones nerfed for no other reason than being able to easily continue to solo V+1 through 10...what is it exactly that you are going to do upon getting to V+10, now that the path has been smoothed and quickened for you? What do you think you will find at V+11 and 12?

Lag issues being corrected, slight adjustments to mechanics of gameplay, base-class balancing, quest fixes, e-x-p changes, loot rewards increased/decreased, new interesting content being added here and there -- THOSE changes are to be expected, especially in the early months of an MMO.

Nerfs to multiple levels of veteran content just at only three months or so into the games' first year... nerfs which will result in consequences for players. It will also result in problems in content further along, and content currently being produced behind the scenes, as well as what will be the model for the first expansion -- one wonders how much if any of those points were taken into consideration?

Unclear, generalized sterile comments instead of detailed, informative updates on Patch days, bland 'We assure you that we are working hard on it' graphs dropped here and there in threads about problems that are literally keeping players from playing AT ALL in PvP, and also affecting PvE ---its almost unbelievable to be honest.

Horrendously dissappointed.