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Sorcerer Community Changes/Suggestions

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CP5
CP5
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I've seen a lot of good ideas for changes to the sorc's base skills posted on several of the topics both before and after the recent ESO live. I don't have the time right now to dig them up and add them all here but what i'm intending is this thread to be a place for people to post suggestions on how to change the sorc, either their active skills, passives, or just basic design ideas so the devs have a list of ideas that the community feels would help the class.

If you see any ideas posted that you find interesting I encourage you to say that you do, like them and add to them if you feel there is more to add, and to also add in your own suggestions. I'll do what I can to keep everything organized in this post.
Currently most areas of the sorc skills have been covered, with only Dark Magic passives lacking some suggestions.

Buffed readability by 20%? 16-2
Also moved from PTS category to General Discussion.

General General Comments
  • From TheLaw - New skill: Spell Strike (Instant Damage and reliable) "Conjure a bound weapon, instantly striking a single target for X damage" 6m range. Lightning Strike: Now deals lightning damage and adds minor defile for 6s (8m range). Hardened Strike: Now stamina based and applies minor fracture for 6s (5m range).
  • From Nihil - Add a passive to the sorcs that allows shock damage to increase the chance of applying the concussion effect, providing semi reliable damage mitigation.
  • From Audigy - Sorcerer's could work better when combining their daedric summons with possible skills that could debuff enemy armor, slow attacks and place curses and hexes on them.

Dark Magic
General Comments

Actives
Negate Magic
  • From Dracane -
    ... Because we are no negate monkeys anymore and we want to be independent now and want to be strong.
  • From Jar_Ek - Feels the skill is no longer an ultimate. A replacement would work better than this nerf or add the negate effect to a passive or active ability as a one shot.
  • From Merlin13KAGL - Negate is to easily countered, and being able to CC break out of the silence (or npcs out of the stun) limits the lasting impact the skill has.
    Negate has been modified to be a random Purge - nothing more, nothing less.
    Also the immunity to Negate should be limited to all but the highest level enemies, reducing general effectiveness is reasonable but full immunity is not.

Crystal Shard
  • From CP5 - Crystal Blast changed from small AOE damage (who wouldn't use the 20% bonus damage, 50% cheaper faster casted morph?) with a spell that summons several crystal shards. Each rank raises the number of shards summoned and casting the spell again launches a shard that deals moderate damage, may or may not have knock down, and provides a debuff that can stack with the LA passive.
fzlxd3hbthlr.jpg
  • From Jar_Ek - Make Daedric curse and possibly DOT tics proc Crystal Fragments, Crystal Blast: Scale off of stamina, 35% proc off of stamina use, melee range (8m) with no AoE.
  • From CP5 - Crystal Blast (aside from loving the PBAOE that procs on stamina skills) - Alter the skill so that rather than casting a single projectile with slight aoe damage, instead you summon several crystals. Each rank summons more and if you cast the skill with crystals up you launch it at the enemy, with no knock down but with a debuff. These would deal moderate damage and allow the caster to sustain damage without gambling on a Fragments Proc. It would also give a reason to take this morph seeing as Fragments has been given buffs but Blast has been ignored.

Encase
  • From Faulgor -
    Encase has been removed and replaced by a new ability, Bloodbile

    Bloodbile
    - Call on Peryites powers to deal X bleed, poison and disease damage over 5 seconds.
    Blood Fountain
    - After 5 seconds, explodes for x disease damage, damaging everything in 6 meter radius.
    Blight
    - This ability now scales with stamina and weapon power. Also applies Major Defile debuff to target.
  • From Merlin13KAGL - Allow the blood magic passive to proc multiple times based off the number of targets hit with diminishing returns.
  • From Jar_Ek - 3s activation period, where if an enemy enters the field they are rooted, Shattering Prison: make the skill PBAOE centered on the caster.

Rune Prison
  • From Faulgor - Reduce cast time to 0.5s
  • many people feel the cast time on this skill greatly limits its usefulness.
  • From Dracane - Remove cast time

Dark Exchange
  • From Faulgor -
    Dark Exchange
    - This ability is now a toggle (because I know you love those)
    - While toggled, disables Stamina Recovery, but doubles Magicka Recovery and tripples Health Recovery.
    Dark Conversion
    - While toggled, disables Magicka Recovery, but doubles Stamina Recovery and tripples Health Recovery.
    Dark Deal
    - While toggled, disables Health Recovery, but doubles Magicka and Stamina Recovery and grants the Major Mending buff.
  • From Dracane - Lower casting cost and make the skill based around solid numbers rather than percentages
  • From Voltos -
    The ability is activated like a buff, rather than being channeled, and has no initial cost.

    You are imbued with dark energy causing your next 3 weapon attacks to convert (X%) of stamina and magicka into (X%) health for 8 seconds. The number of weapon attacks increases with each level.

    Power Exchange(Morph) –
    You are imbued with dark energy causing your next 6 attacks to convert (X%) of magicka into (X%) of health and stamina for 8 seconds.

    Spell Exchange(Morph) –
    You are imbued with dark energy causing your next 6 attacks to convert (X%) of stamina into (X%) of health and magicka for 8 seconds.
  • From Jar_Ek - Make a toggle (lol) When on drains stamina for health/magicka, no channel and no snare but with a higher conversion ration (more stamina draind). One morph swaps stamina for magicka, other causes minor AoE dot when active.
  • From Digiman - Change the duration to 2.5s and have conversion ticks every 0.5s OR have the last tic proc for additional healing (example 6% health and magicka) to highlight the need for others to interrupt the skill (and to provide more incentive to keep it running the whole time).

Daedric Mines
  • From Faulgor -
    Daedric Mines has been removed and replaced by a new ability, Fatigue

    Fatigue
    - Creates a minor absorption field for 20 seconds, draining x Stamina per second from enemies inside the field and reducing their movement speed. Also applies the Major Endurance buff to the caster.
    Lifeforce Trap
    - Also drains x Magicka per second from enemies inside the field and applies the Major Intellect buff to the caster.
    Trespasser's Bane
    - Applies the Major Endurance buff to group members inside the field.
  • From Dracane -
    It's a bit underwhelming. I would increase the damage and would remove the daedric tomb morph. And replace it with 'Daedric Circle'. This Circle stops, damages and roots gap closing melee fighters (or an enemy in general) 1 time, when they touch the circle. After that, it disappears. So we would finally have a safe way to keep melee fighters away and since daedric mines are so expensive..... Because currently, gap closers are leading the melee fighter through the mines and he does not activate them. And to keep distance to melee fighters is going to be essential in 1.6, as they are going to be sooo strong.
  • From Jar_Ek - Invisible to opponents and stop gap closers including bolt escape. Diminishing returns from bosses (rather than immunity, ex 1st mine 100%, 2nd 50%, 3rd 25%).
  • From Digiman - Increase detonation radius so they can't be as easily avoided.
  • From Merlin13KAGL - Proximity, mines could independently kite/seek nearest target.

Passives
Unholy Knowledge

Blood Magic
  • From Jar_Ek - Blood magic heals mostly before you are damaged, Jar_Ek (and others) changes to skills provide room to use dark magic when in combat.

Persistence

Exploitation
  • From CP5 - A 3% spell crit bonus to all your nearby allies when using an expensive dark magic skill is nice, but what if it, going by the name Exploitation, gave allies and the caster spell and armor penetration?

Deadric Summoning
General Comments
  • From Dracane -
    I don't see this tree becoming desirable, without totally changing it. I don't want to talk about this tree.
  • From CP5 - many people don't see a skill tree with 3 toggles as all that engaging or fun to use, regardless of the potential damage output. Also pets need health regen. The only time pets heal is when combat ends, they have 0 regen on their own.
  • From Kahrgan [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151894/1-6-x-sorcerer-issues-and-suggestions#latest] - Toggles are boring. They greatly restrict builds and don't providing interesting game play.
    BORING. Okay I think you get the point. Make one pet a toggle. The other summons a 2h bound sword that you can press again to activate an attack (like a triple-hitting channel on the target) one morph would give magicka back, the other would make the ability scale based on stamina and weapon damage. You can make daedric curse still effect both of these abilities. (This would be so awesome...) Just an idea.
    Also, could you change the graphic on the bound armor to just be transparent effect around our character? Because most people would rather not hide their gear./quote]
  • From Jar_Ek [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151904/sorcerer-daedric-summoning-rewrite#latest] - Casting a summon summons the creature, CTRL + skill de-summons. While the creature is summoned they gain an active skill (use the skill key again) Examples
    Familiar: Activation ability: Daedric explosion
    Active ability: AoE explosion at familiar location. Costs magicka.

    Clanfear: Activation ability: Tail swipe.
    Active ability: AoE knockdown + damage (equiv to Daedric explosion) at clanfear location.

    Unstable Familiar: Activation ability: Unstable explosion
    Active ability: Causes an AoE explosion + stun at familiar location. Costs magicka.

    Winged Twilight: Activation ability: Azura's light
    Active ability: Performs a heal on caster. Costs magicka

    Restoring Twilight: Activation ability: Azura's light
    Active ability as Winged Twilight. Morph provides a magicka regeneration aura

    Twilight Matriarch: Activation ability: Azura's light
    Active ability as Winged Twilight (cost stamina?). Morph provides a stamina regeneration aura

    Bound Armour: Activation ability: Azura's nullification sphere
    Active ability: Absorb next magicka attack, replenishes magicka based on damage absorbed. Costs stamina

    Bound Aegis: Activation ability: Azura's nullification sphere
    Active ability: As Bound Armour

    Bound Armament: Activation ability: Azura's nullification shield
    Active ability: Absorb next magicka attack, replenishes stamina based on damage absorbed. Costs magicka
  • From CP5 - This is a low priority but in Cryodiil pets gain no buffs. This means that until you reach vet level your pets will frequently miss the NPCs with their attacks, and if a level 10 were to summon a pet (even the Storm Atronach) that summon is scaled to their normal level, leaving pets relatively useless.
  • From Audigy - There is more that pets could be doing, allowing summoning of different pets without losing pet options when picking morphs. Pets could be allowed to have their damage type altered, be given different abilities, improve their resilience and better set them up for their intended job. Heals should be more effective on pets.

Actives
Summon Storm Atronach
  • From Dracane - The Storm Atronach's range limits its effectiveness in PvP and should be buffed to be comparable to other ultimate's. Also the Storm Atronach should be immune to CC otherwise any form of CC renders it useless.
  • From Audigy - Allow the Atronch to last until it dies and add mobility.

Unstable Familiar
  • From Audigy - Clannfear - To better act as the sorcerer's tank it needs more durability and better tools to taunt for its master. Familiar - The pet could use some more durability as well, and it would be nice to gain pets when selecting morphs rather than gaining one and losing another.

Daedric Curse
  • From CP5 - A lot of people believe Curse shouldn't be blockable.

Summon Winged Twilight
  • From Audigy - Dies very easily and doesn't provide as strong of a benefit to the caster.

Bound Armor

Conjured Ward

Passives
Rebate
  • From CP5 - Going off of Symbiosis, what if pets got healed by whatever their master was healed by? They could then be immune to all heals but still be kept alive.

Power Stone

Daedric Protection
  • From CP5 - What if this passive allowed pets to gain a percentage of the healing that their master gains? Without the passive pets could gain something like 25% of the casters healing, but then go to 65%/100%. This way pets could be immune to heals but still get heath in battle. Also give pets passive health regen (perhaps tied to the casters regen) so they can heal somewhat in combat.

Expert Summoner

Storm Calling
General Comments

Actives
Overload
  • From Dracane - Overload feels more like a 3rd skill bar, the damage buffs in 1.6 make it viable and better than the other Sorc ultimate's.

Mage's Fury
  • From Dracane - Make the skill blockable, raise cost and give it the same damage as force shock. OR Make the explosion proc at a health percentage above 20%, even up to 50%.
  • From Jar_Ek - More damage before execution phase without over buffing the execution phase damage. Endless Fury: Returns magicka if enemy dies in X seconds of explosion, similar to Killers Blade change. OR Make each subsequent cast have a lower cost (next spell in 2s gets 10% discount up to 50%).

Lightning Form
  • From Faulgor - Double Damage
    Boundless Storm - Remove Major Resolve and Major Armor buffs; Increase damage by 300% to base damage.

Lightning Splash
  • From Faulgor - Double damage
  • From Dracane - Buff radiuc to 5-6m and raise damage per tic.
  • From CP5 - reduce casting time on the skill. Like volley there is a delay between casting and the skill starting its damage. But once you start casting the aoe goes away. If this skill is going to be the means of sustained DPS it can't be disabled for so long when you are recasting it on moving targets.
  • From Voltos - Change from ground target to player/enemy target, with more damage and radius. Rename it Lightning Storm and have the aoe damage follow the initial target, allowing it to remain useful in situations where enemies move. It would be able to be broken out of or roll dodged out of.

Surge
  • From Faulgor -
    Surge
    - Removed healing effect.
    - Applies the Major Brutality buff for x seconds. All weapon attacks have a 20% chance to disorient target.
    Power Surge
    - Also applies the Major Sorcery buff.
    Critical Surge
    - Critical hits disorient target.
  • From Dracane - Add shock damage to attacks, again Entropy is better than Surge.
  • From CP5 - Going off of the above ideas Surge could add basic shock damage on attacks, Power Surge could have that damage splash to nearby targets and Critical Surge could apply a dot on crits that heals for a % of the damage done but can't crit on its own. EDIT: Could also have critical surge cause shock explosions on cirts, the blast could set enemies off balance or disorient them.
  • From TheLaw - Make it the magicka based version of Momentum, crit heals not reliable. Base: Major Sorcery for 30s, heals for X every 2s. Power Surge: Now applies Major Brutality as well as Major Sorcery buffs. Rejuvenating Surge: Heals for X at end of duration or on refresh, getting stronger based on duration since cast.
  • From Jar_Ek - Reduce cooldown on crit heals to 0.05s so AOE doesn't provide excessive healing but DOTs don't remove the abilities healing effectiveness. OR Remove the CD and cap the number of targets you can heal off of at once (3-4 suggested). Critical Surge: Or have no CD on this morph or add an additional weapon buff. Power Surge: Entropy is still more effective, no more weapon buff but another magicka buff (would likely need CD removed to be useful).
  • From Erock25 [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151691/zos-stamina-sorc-suggestions] - Surge is very underwhelming for stamina sorcs currently as it is easily surpassed by Rally. Perhaps add the Major Endurance buff to allow sorc's to turn magicka into stamina by regen. Also, prior to 1.6 stamina sorcs were powerful since they could stack Surge with other weapon buffs and the new buff system removes that ability, add a Minor Brutality (for example in the form of a stamina Crystal Frag morph) would provide stamina sorcs with competitive damage.

Bolt Escape
  • From Dracane - Ball of Lightning - remove absorption orb and add either another morph or an evade chance after the blink.
  • From Jar_Ek - Remove 50% cost addition but make subsequent cast in (2s cost +20%) up to 300% cap. No magicka regen debuff, the debuff gets in the way of the concept of bolt escape, to recover not wait around.
  • From Merlin13KAGL - BoL - Orbs remain but appear randomly as to not provide a clear trail of where the caster has gone.

Passives
Capacitor

Energized
  • From Faulgor -
    5/10% chance on damaging with a Storm Calling ability to restore x Magicka.

Disintegrate

Expert Mage
Many are worried about the loss of the cost reduction this passive provided as many of these skills are expensive.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌, this list covers most abilities in the entire sorcerer skill tree with as many ideas as this post will allow in it. I will keep adding to it over time but i've found ideas from the forums that make the class both more effective, interesting and enjoyable to use.
Edited by CP5 on February 19, 2015 7:59PM
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Added Surge Shock Damage
    Dracane wrote: »
    Another thing: Why don't they implement a small shock damage buff to Surge ? Entropy also applies a DoT. Surge should make our attacks deal shock damage on each attack. Only as much to be on par with Entropy.

    For those who forgot about it:

    Surge:

    -Increases Spell damage by 20%
    -40% of critical strikes is added as health (crits against blocking targets and Damage shields is not impossible, impenetrable lowers the healing)
    - has 9 seconds longer duration than Entropy
    - Costs a huge amount of Magicka.

    Entropy:

    Increases Spell damage by 20%
    -Deals damage over time
    -Recovers health every few seconds
    -Increases max health by 8(?)% or 15% on hit to get 115% of weapon attack damage as health
    -Increases max Magicka by 2%
    -Increases max Magicka regen by 2%
    -After activation, next spell deals more damage
    -Costs almost nothing

    So yeah.... no comment needed.

    From : http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151645/sorc-1-6-3-preview-from-livestream/p1
  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    (Great idea, my friend <3 )

    I'm only going to talk about active abilities. This doesn't mean, the passives are fine.

    Dark Magic:

    Rune Prison: Remove the cast time

    Dark Exchange: Everyone hates this :) just like encase, it might be an option to totally remove this. What I really would love, is to remove the percentage cost/restore from it. The Magicka morph costs me 6300 Magicka per second and only restores 1800 health, this is outrageous.

    If this would have a lower Magicka cost, we would finally have a magicka based self heal and could also compensate our biggest weakness a bit: Stamina. It would be a weak self heal, but I would slot it then.

    Daedric Mines    : It's a bit underwhelming. I would increase the damage and would remove the daedric tomb morph. And replace it with 'Daedric Circle'. This Circle stops, damages and roots gap closing melee fighters (or an enemy in general) 1 time, when they touch the circle. After that, it disappears. So we would finally have a safe way to keep melee fighters away and since daedric mines are so expensive..... Because currently, gap closers are leading the melee fighter through the mines and he does not activate them. And to keep distance to melee fighters is going to be essential in 1.6, as they are going to be sooo strong.

    Negate Magic: I never liked it. This ability is like Martin Septim dying and allowing the Aldmeri Dominion to finally smash the chains of the Empire and to be free and independent again (Events of TES 4:Oblivion). Because other classes called us strong, because we're having Negate. Since it got nerfed to death now, we have EVERY right to ask for buffs. Because we are no negate monkeys anymore and we want to be independent now and want to be strong.

    So thanks for this nerf

    Storm calling

    Mage's Fury: I have 2 ideas here. I would make it blockable, increase the cost and give it the same damage as force shock. We would finally have an instant class ability, which deals reasonable damage.

    Or: Since the Templar Jesus Beam procs at 50% health, there is no reason to be silent anymore: I want to proc mage's fury at the same rate or at least way higher than 20%.

    Lightning splash: It's going to get a duration buff next week. But this is not going to increase its DPS. I would go ahead and increase the base radius to 5 or 6 Meters and definately increase the damage per tic a bit. I mean, it's getting 10% more expensive now and yea, we'll see .

    Surge: It's a tragedy. I would leave it as it is and add a shock damage buff to it. So each of our attacks, is going to cause shock damage, in addition to normal damage. Because besides the duration of Surge, Entropy is just better.

    Bolt Escape: OMG remove Ball of Lightning or nerf it to death, or replace it. Maybe giving it an evade chance, after the blink.


    Daedric Summoning

    I don't see this tree becoming desirable, without totally changing it. I don't want to talk about this tree.

    Edited by Dracane on February 15, 2015 7:47PM
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Added Suggestions from
    Faulgor wrote: »
    ...

    I generally don't like repeating myself, but I think these suggestions I made in another post would adress most of these issues
    Dark Magic

    Encase has been removed and replaced by a new ability, Bloodbile

    Bloodbile
    - Call on Peryites powers to deal X bleed, poison and disease damage over 5 seconds.
    Blood Fountain
    - After 5 seconds, explodes for x disease damage, damaging everything in 6 meter radius.
    Blight
    - This ability now scales with stamina and weapon power. Also applies Major Defile debuff to target.

    Rune Prison
    - Reduced cast time to 0.5 seconds.

    Dark Exchange
    - This ability is now a toggle (because I know you love those)
    - While toggled, disables Stamina Recovery, but doubles Magicka Recovery and tripples Health Recovery.
    Dark Conversion
    - While toggled, disables Magicka Recovery, but doubles Stamina Recovery and tripples Health Recovery.
    Dark Deal
    - While toggled, disables Health Recovery, but doubles Magicka and Stamina Recovery and grants the Major Mending buff.

    Daedric Mines has been removed and replaced by a new ability, Fatigue

    Fatigue
    - Creates a minor absorption field for 20 seconds, draining x Stamina per second from enemies inside the field and reducing their movement speed. Also applies the Major Endurance buff to the caster.
    Lifeforce Trap
    - Also drains x Magicka per second from enemies inside the field and applies the Major Intellect buff to the caster.
    Trespasser's Bane
    - Applies the Major Endurance buff to group members inside the field.

    These changes give Sorcerers a short duration spamable DOT (Bloodbound) to trigger Crystal Fragments, aswell as improving this trees original purpose: Crowd control and support. Rune Prison can be used more deliberately if the situation demands it, while Fatigue is especially useful in PvP and in supporting group members. One of Dark Exchange's morphs is also designed to improve the healing role for Sorcerers. In conjunction with the Blood Magic passive (which could be reduced in magnitude), the spamability of most spells allows for a good healing method.
    In essence, Dark Magic is used to annoy your enemies, as well as buffing yourself and your group members.

    Storm Calling

    Lightning Form
    - Doubled damage.
    Boundless Storm
    - Removed Major Resolve and Major Armor buffs; Increase damage by 300% to base damage.

    Lightning Splash
    - Doubled damage.

    Surge
    - Removed healing effect.
    - Applies the Major Brutality buff for x seconds. All weapon attacks have a 20% chance to disorient target.
    Power Surge
    - Also applies the Major Sorcery buff.
    Critical Surge
    - Critical hits disorient target.

    Energized
    - 5/10% chance on damaging with a Storm Calling ability to restore x Magicka.

    Lightning Form is a nice buff for armor, but not much else. These changes increase its viability as a close-up DOT, even more so with its morph that forsakes the armor buff for more damage. Lightning Splash simply deserves up to twice its current damage to be an alternative to other AoEs, considering it's not a PBAoE like Impulse, Carve or Whirlwind. Surge is simply gone as a useful heal - that functionality has been moved to the Dark Magic tree. Instead, Surge improves survivability by disorienting targets, which can be easily CC broken in PvP but offers quite a bit utility in PvE.

    Re-quoted from [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151645/sorc-1-6-3-preview-from-livestream/p3]
    Edited by CP5 on February 15, 2015 7:53PM
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Dracane wrote: »
    (Great idea, my friend <3 )

    I'm only going to talk about active abilities. This doesn't mean, the passives are fine.

    Dark Magic:

    Rune Prison: Remove the cast time

    Dark Exchange: Everyone hates this :) just like encase, it might be an option to totally remove this. What I really would love, is to remove the percentage cost/restore from it. The Magicka morph costs me 6300 Magicka per second and only restores 1800 health, this is outrageous.

    If this would have a lower Magicka cost, we would finally have a magicka based self heal and could also compensate our biggest weakness a bit: Stamina. It would be a weak self heal, but I would slot it then.

    Daedric Mines    : It's a bit underwhelming. I would increase the damage and would remove the daedric tomb morph. And replace it with 'Daedric Circle'. This Circle stops, damages and roots gap closing melee fighters (or an enemy in general) 1 time, when they touch the circle. After that, it disappears. So we would finally have a safe way to keep melee fighters away and since daedric mines are so expensive..... Because currently, gap closers are leading the melee fighter through the mines and he does not activate them. And to keep distance to melee fighters is going to be essential in 1.6, as they are going to be sooo strong.

    Negate Magic: I never liked it. This ability is like Martin Septim dying and allowing the Aldmeri Dominion to finally smash the chains of the Empire and to be free and independent again (Events of TES 4:Oblivion). Because other classes called us strong, because we're having Negate. Since it got nerfed to death now, we have EVERY right to ask for buffs. Because we are no negate monkeys anymore and we want to be independent now and want to be strong.

    So thanks for this nerf

    Storm calling

    Mage's Fury: I have 2 ideas here. I would make it blockable, increase the cost and give it the same damage as force shock. We would finally have an instant class ability, which deals reasonable damage.

    Or: Since the Templar Jesus Beam procs at 50% health, there is no reason to be silent anymore: I want to proc mage's fury at the same rate or at least way higher than 20%.

    Lightning splash: It's going to get a duration buff next week. But this is not going to increase its DPS. I would go ahead and increase the base radius to 5 or 6 Meters and definately increase the damage per tic a bit. I mean, it's getting 10% more expensive now and yea, we'll see .

    Surge: It's a tragedy. I would leave it as it is and add a shock damage buff to it. So each of our attacks, is going to cause shock damage, in addition to normal damage. Because besides the duration of Surge, Entropy is just better.

    Bolt Escape: OMG remove Ball of Lightning or nerf it to death, or replace it. Maybe giving it an evade chance, after the blink.


    Daedric Summoning

    I don't see this tree becoming desirable, without totally changing it. I don't want to talk about this tree.

    Adding these now, hope is the devs can get some ideas from the people who are playing the class as to how we feel it should be improved.
  • Dracane
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    @CP5 thank you. I think, I am staying modest with my suggestions. I don't want godly abilities, but usefull abilities. When I am looking at other class trees, everything seems so desireable. While looking at the Sorc trees, I must try to not cry instantly.

    These were only some thoughts and basic ideas. We also have to remember, that replacing entire abilities, would cost time and money for ZoS and this is nothing I want. That's why I suggested some minor tweaks and changes, that could easily be done, without draining many ressources.
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.
  • Cinnamon_Spider
    Cinnamon_Spider
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    Dracane wrote: »

    Bolt Escape: OMG remove Ball of Lightning or nerf it to death, or replace it. Maybe giving it an evade chance, after the blink.

    I can get behind some of the changes you mentioned, but not this. When BoL works properly, it is wonderful.
    Cinn #SorcLivesMatter
    Exquisite Bedlam - Sorcerer AD rank 34
    Cinnamonspiderdreams - Sorcerer EP rank 24
    Synaris Astarte - Templar DC rank 24
    Cinnamon Spider - Nightblade AD

    Youtube - Cinnamon_Spider
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Adding
    xherics wrote: »
    Personally I am glad, that ZOS trying to help the community and buffing the sorcerer, but by my opinion, the planned changes are not enough - but I want to test them as well.

    My pre-test opinion is this:

    The mentioned passive should be at least 5% more spell damage for 1 slotted skill, but this is the minimum to have it at least a bit effective!
    I can imagine 5% for first passive skill point, 10% for second skill point used there! That would be a great buff!

    So, 1 skill slotted on bar = 10% more spell damage!

    Lighting splash: ZOS you need to increase the damage of this skill also, and morphs as well, not only the duration. This spell hits really like a small baby and when somebody uses the Synergy it just disappears with not enough high end damage.
    I think Staff Elemental ring/Impulse will be still better than this one!

    One wanted fix of Crystal Fragments: It is never instant cast, even it PROCs from other skills, it has still cast time, less the full cast time, but it is still not instant! Maybe the animation change should be a fix for this, to be sure, that it is instant.


    @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151645/sorc-1-6-3-preview-from-livestream/p3]
  • Dracane
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    ratgoddess495 wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »

    Bolt Escape: OMG remove Ball of Lightning or nerf it to death, or replace it. Maybe giving it an evade chance, after the blink.

    I can get behind some of the changes you mentioned, but not this. When BoL works properly, it is wonderful.

    Hm yea, many are loving this ability. I think it's just too good to not take it. Maybe it is because, duels between 2 BoL Sorcerers are exhausting.

    But I agree, it's very strong and is our ensurance against each ranged caster. Don't take my suggestion for BoL too serious. It's the angry dueller that's speaking there.

    By the way: I wanted to further emphazise, how important a damage buff to surge is. Look at these Entropy tick numbers. They hit for around 780 and can even crit. Surge has no chance against entropy. The only reason why you would be taking surge, is because it lasts 9 seconds longer (but costs as lot) Surge NEEDS to apply damage on hits. i'm seeing no future for Surge in PvE, with this DPS gap.3i2bopwqtlv2.jpg
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Adding Daedric Mine Suggestion
    Seraphyel wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    Seraphyel wrote: »
    I really like the change of Splash, I love that ability - but not only the duration should be increased, they should increas the damage, too. Or even the first hit morph should get a serious buff.

    Right now Sorcs have too many "meh" abilities. Daedric Mines is totally a Melee skill - why is there no morph that places three mines on the target and that explode after we (=the Sorc) did some amount of damage? Or they explode when they get hit by Crystal Shards or something like that - would give us more opportunities.

    Ehm, sorry, but those mines - we really don't need more burst damage.
    We need better sustained damage without having to use pets for it.

    Only thing I am not so sure about Lightning Splash is that it may not be able to compete with Impulse or Firerune (it will at least be better than the 1.62 Wall of Elements, wich really isn't that hard).
    The changed passive must give a lot of spell damage to make sorcerer abilities more worthwhile to slot. Since spell damage doesn't even contribute that much to most abilities. But if it does, that change is a very good one imo.

    You do realize that those mines give you sustained damage next to burst?

    "28m range: Place three daedric mines on your target. The mines will last for 30 seconds. When you attack the target, each mine explodes after the target received XX damage. Do those mines last until the end, they will explode for 50% of their combined damage. Daedric Mines can only be cast once."

    So they would give you burst AND sustained damage, cause both are going hand in hand.

    I love the skill but I hate the melee range component of it.

    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151645/sorc-1-6-3-preview-from-livestream/p3]
  • CP5
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    Adding
    Grao wrote: »
    First of all, thanks @ZOS_GinaBruno and Eric Wrobel for answering some of our Sorcerer related questions and concerns. I am very excited and ready to test the new changes to be implemented with patch 1.6.3, unfortunately there are still some concerns even this new changes don't address.

    - Concerning Armor: Magicka Users are currently forced to use armor that offers no protection and very little to compensate for that weakness. We expect a balance, if you are easier to kill, you should be doing higher DPS or HPS; contrary to that, if you are harder to kill, you should do lower DPS and HPS - At the end, the differences should cancel each other.

    - Concerning Build Diversity: Hopefully the changes to Expert Mage will allow for greater sorcerer diversity, but other little changes could be implemented. @ZOS, would it be hard to make pets scale from your greater resource pool (Magikca or Stamina)? That would introduce pet summoners with bows and other weapons (Hunters).

    - A concern introduced by changing Expert Mage connects to the cost of Storm Calling skills. Originally the Passive lowered the cost of all SC abilities, are those being readjusted to compensate for that change? Is the cost for Surge in particular being looked into? Te skill gives very similar buffs to Entropy and yet it costs 4 times more.

    - As I expressed during the ESO Live, there are good reasons to be concerned about pets in Trials. Currently, not only they drain AoE Heals, but pets are also instantly targeted by abilities such as "Steadfast Ward" and its morphs.
    On top of that, pets are also directly attacked by bosses and used by the same to channel abilities such as "Chain Lightning" On the Mage and "Shield Throw" on The Warrior fights. Since Sorcerers have very little control over the pet's movements and no way to know when a pet is being targeted by a Debuff that causes damage to the entire raid, they need to be immune to such effects (just as they should be immune to healing effects).

    - To compensate the loss of healing effects on pet, would it be possible for Empowered Ward to heal them or increase the pet's regeneration?

    - Would it be possible for Daedric Prey to act as a homing beacon for our pets? Targeting the pets is still very unresponsive in the PTS and extremely tricky against multiple targets - It would be great if all summoned pets changed to the enemy "Marked" by Daedric Prey.

    - Outside of pet build, sorcerers are still concerned we don't have a single target filler ability (like Crushing / Force Shock). Crystal Fragments is amazing in PvP and its procs are now useful in PvE, but they are still procs and therefore unreliable.Magicka Sorcerers are still forced to have Force Shock in their bar, no matte what is their build.

    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151645/sorc-1-6-3-preview-from-livestream/p5]
    Edited by CP5 on February 15, 2015 8:42PM
  • CP5
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    Adding Thundering Presence Suggestion
    Snit wrote: »
    Suggestion: Scale Thundering Presence Armor.

    Thundering Presence appears to scale in damage as it advances in rank. Instead, make it advance in Armor/ Spell resist, to better reflect what mages are actually using it for, an active defense.

    It should be a good active defense. Here are some comparisons at VR14, in template gear:

    Med Armor (full): Armor 11,414, Spell Resist 11,414
    Light Armor (full): Armor 3,674, Spell Resist 6,138
    LA with Thundering Armor (Rank IV): Armor 8,794, Spell Resist 11,258

    Even with constant maintenance of a 20-second active buff, LA falls well behind medium in armor, and slightly behind in spell resist. I'm not going to test against heavy. We know how that would go.

    If shields are going to be nerfed, we should have an alternative. I believe that, if we can dedicate a skill slot and constant stream of magicka and GCD's to maintaining our best armor skill, the protection granted should be comparable to that of medium armor.

    It's not like Light provides any more damage than Medium.


    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151645/sorc-1-6-3-preview-from-livestream/p5]
  • CP5
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    Adding
    Kahrgan wrote: »
    Let's start off by saying that with my sorc, compared to when I play other classes... it leaves something to be desired.

    1) Dark exchange is not effective in PVE due to the nature of the ability. Not doing any damage while you channel this spell for 3-4+ seconds means an overall loss in DPS / HPS and theres no way a tanking sorc can ever use it. In pvp, you have to be in the back-line or hide behind a rock. No ability ever should require you to hide behind a rock to make sure you don't get 'bent over' just trying to use it.

    This ability needs to be replaced, or changed. Maybe a melee-range ability with a stamina morph?

    2) Rune Prison is simply... bad. It has a cast time, which makes it's effectiveness pretty weak, plus even on the morph defensive rune it has a cast time.

    This ability needs to have no cast time, or removed and replaced with something else. Maybe.. something with a stamina morph? (See the common theme?)

    3) The 1.6.3 Lightning splash change is okay... but you took away its initial damage to give us the longer duration, which means it's effectiveness in both PVE And PVP is reduced greatly, especially if the monsters/players are moving.

    This is not the answer to sustain. This is a QoL improvement.

    4) Toggles: Toggles are boring. I cannot say this enough. Pets are boring, and silver/purple armor that hides all that neat gear you got/spent money on/crafted, is boring. It severely limits your play and makes it so you have a limited amount of playability available on each bar.

    BORING. Okay I think you get the point. Make one pet a toggle. The other summons a 2h bound sword that you can press again to activate an attack (like a triple-hitting channel on the target) one morph would give magicka back, the other would make the ability scale based on stamina and weapon damage. You can make daedric curse still effect both of these abilities. (This would be so awesome...) Just an idea.

    Also, could you change the graphic on the bound armor to just be transparent effect around our character? Because most people would rather not hide their gear.

    5) Rebate: This passive is sort of lame. While it does give you something useful when your pet dies, your pets dying is more of a detriment to your dps than 10% of your magicka. There's really no point in this passive. Remove it and just reduce the cost of pet spells.

    6) Daedric Mines: Some people like this ability. A lot don't. Not only does it have a massive mana cost, the damage is laughable AND the enemy/mob has to run over them to go off, and that's IF they are active yet.

    Replace with something more effective in both PVE and PVP... with a STAMINA morph option perhaps?

    7) Surge Oh boy here we go. An experiment that has caused a lot of strife. It's not dependable, the heal now is horrid, it's not usable when tanking, and it's cost is too high.

    Change to:
    • This ability now applies the Major Brutality buff.
    • Power Surge: This ability now also applies the Major Sorcery buff.
    • Crucial Surge: This ability now heals you for 40% of your missing health

    I chose 40% as a balanced number because it costs more than GDB by over 1k magicka and doesn't have the health recovery buff, or the stamina recovery.


    Anyway, these are some of my concerns with the class with some suggestions mixed in there.

    TL;DR Make surge a straight up heal and dmg buff, take away lame toggles and give us something fun/interesting/good, clean up lame unusable abilities that people don't even want to waste skill points on. PS: please don't make me change my main to my DK or templar just to be effective.

    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151894/1-6-x-sorcerer-issues-and-suggestions#latest]
  • Seraphyel
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    Great thread!
  • Jar_Ek
    Jar_Ek
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    Quick note to OP, the multiple levels of spoiler do not seem to work. I cannot read the actual info.
  • CP5
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    @Jar_Ek, many of these don't have any suggestions under them yet. If you can't see anything under, for example, the Storm Calling > Actives > Surge, then I will double check to see if it is broken.
  • Dracane
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    Jar_Ek wrote: »
    Quick note to OP, the multiple levels of spoiler do not seem to work. I cannot read the actual info.

    The Spoilers in his original post are empty anyway I think. I thought, he wanted to give us an example, how he wants us to do it. Not sure though.
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.
  • CP5
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    Will edit the op to try to include the parts that include the most suggestions and what areas haven't had suggestions put in them yet.
  • ItsRejectz
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    Like I said in my other post, my suggestion is for ZOS to just scrap the whole Sorcerer class and start again. It's not the best at anything, tanking/dps or healing. Has the worst skills for a stamina build and worst of all TOGGLES!!

    Just scrap it and start again
    Edited by ItsRejectz on February 15, 2015 9:14PM
    Xbox EU - GT: o69 Woody 69o

    VR16 Sorc: Vlad V Impaler
    VR16 Sorc: Yes it's Woody
    VR16 NB: Prince of Wallachia
    VR16 Templar: Sir Lancelot the Brave
    VR16 DK: I'm Better Than You


  • CP5
    CP5
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    Adding
    Dracane wrote: »
    The 10% cost reduction was underwhelming anyway, just like most Sorcerer passives. 10% reduction is maybe 100 Magicka less for Mage's Fury, which is nothing.

    The list goes on

    Daedric summoning passives: Are horrible and very limited. Why does a mage need health regen ? Daedric Protection (the least important stat in the game) and the other 2 passives are only helping daedric summoners, which is wasted potential. Rebate and Expert Summoner The Ultimate cost reduction is a good one.

    Stormcalling passives: Capacitor gives 10% Magicka regeneration, this is okay. Energized is a bit weak in my opinion. All Stormcalling abilities are considered low damage abilites and 5% does not make a change.Disintegration got nerfed from 10% chance to 6% chance. It can have an impact on boss fights, when using mage's fury. Everywhere else, it's very situational. Yea and Expert Mage is very poor. The 10% makes a reasonable change with Surge, but is not usefull everywhere else. We'll see, if the change is going to be good.

    Dark Magic passives: Nothing to argue here. It's okay in my opinion. (at least compared to other Sorcerer passives. Compared to other class passives.... hm medium)

    What I want to say is, there is enough space to make improvements. The change to expert mage could finally give us a nice, universal Sorc passive. If it turns out to be 1 or 2% per slotted Sorc skill, expect to see hater posts spawning like dark anchors.

    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151676/sorcerer-feedback-for-eric-wrobel-and-the-combat-team/p1]
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Adding
    Exstazik wrote: »
    Surge(toggle)
    Depends on staff :
    Fire:
    While active, add [x] Fire damage to your attacks ,Burned enemies takes ++more damage
    Ice:
    While active, add [x] Ice damage to your attacks,and[x] damage to stamina.
    Lighting:
    While active, add [x] Shock damage to your attacks,and[x] damage to magicka.

    For all:
    While active, critical strikes heal you for 40% of damage done.(0,25 sec CD)


    Power Surge:(costs stamina)
    Invoke Merida’s name to get a rush of power granting you Major Brutality, which increases Weapon Damage by 20% for 33 seconds.(incresed to the same time as Momentum)
    While active, critical strikes heal you for 55% of damage done.(0,25 sec CD)

    Mage Surge:(costs magicka)
    Invoke Merida’s name to get a rush of power granting you MajorSorcery, which increases Spell Damage by 20% for 33 seconds.(the same as Momentum)
    While active, critical strikes heal you for 55% of damage done.(0,25 sec CD)

    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151676/sorcerer-feedback-for-eric-wrobel-and-the-combat-team/p1]
  • Dracane
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    There are so many ideas and suggestions on the forum :)
    I only wanted to say @ZOS it's not that we want everything. These are only ideas and I am sure, one of them is going to be the right one and can be the solution.
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.
  • Voltos
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    Here is an idea from a previous post I created about Dark Exchange. I think, with some tweaking, it could become our best self-sustain. Here are my ideas:


    A New Dark Exchange - Please Read

    Dark Exchange – This ability has been completely redesigned. The ability is activated like a buff, rather than being channeled, and has no initial cost.

    You are imbued with dark energy causing your next 3 weapon attacks to convert (X%) of stamina and magicka into (X%) health for 8 seconds. The number of weapon attacks increases with each level.

    Power Exchange(Morph) –
    You are imbued with dark energy causing your next 6 attacks to convert (X%) of magicka into (X%) of health and stamina for 8 seconds.

    Spell Exchange(Morph) –
    You are imbued with dark energy causing your next 6 attacks to convert (X%) of stamina into (X%) of health and magicka for 8 seconds.


    Let me know what you think. Cheers.
  • CP5
    CP5
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    @Voltos, adding it now, and that does have a more unique feel to it than other skills. That change is more along the lines of what I would like ZOS to do, make the skills interesting and unique, not just number buffs.
  • CP5
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    Adding
    rfennell_ESO wrote: »
    I'll leave some feedback in line with the flavor of the thread title for devs if they actually bother reading it.

    The single biggest issue that sorcs have is that class abilities are lackluster or useless.

    Crystal shards: soso ability that needs to either do more damage comparative to destru staff abiltiies or even comparable damage. It's potentially good in pvp and is mostly effective.

    Encase: magicka cost needs to be drastically reduced and range increased. If this was a ranged root it would be something work taking.

    Rune prison: Not sure if the changes will make anyone take it.

    Dark exchange: it's a terrible ability, and needs to be replaced as it's redundant to a better mage's guild ability. Being this is a dark magic skill, why not replace it with a dot?

    Daedric mines: Need to do a lot more damage.

    Negate magic: didn't really need to nerfed at all. revert.
    ---
    Unstable familiar: combine it with summon winged twilight as a summon daedra ability. Eliminate the toggle or at least make it so it doesn't need to be on all bars.

    Daedric curse: You increased it's damage some, perhaps making it tick for more or more damage until explosion is a better option. The pet version is soso idea... just make the pets do that increased damage by default and figure out a different morph.

    Summon Winged Twilight: combine with unstable familiar as a morph. Replace with some sort of AE. How about that shadow zone ability that summons skeletons out of it for ae dmg? Or make it summon imps or something.

    Bound armor: needs more armor... a lot more armor. Eliminate it from being a multiple bar toggle.

    Conjured ward: mostly a good ability.

    Summon Storm Atronarch: fine as is.

    ---

    Mages Fury: increase the execute range, increase the base damage.

    Lightning form: Changes made in 1.6 seem good.

    Lightning splash: Proposed changes seem good.

    Surge: Just revert it and make it give weapon power or spell power based on magicka or stamina levels.

    Bolt escape: increase steak damage.

    Overload: decide what you are doing with it already. It's a decent hitting ability that doesn't allow you to weave currently (so useless in pve) Why does it turn you over to another bar? Why does the other bar drain all your magicka in 2 casts while on it? Why can't you block while using it? Increase the fan width and range of heavy attacks... it's so bad it doesn't hit things standing in front of you half the time.

    ---

    Lastly decide what the point of multiple bar toggle abilities is. Just make all of them turn on abilities or give us a toggle ability slot right next to ultimate button.


    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151676/sorcerer-feedback-for-eric-wrobel-and-the-combat-team/p3]
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Adding
    XEVENEX wrote: »
    fzlxd3hbthlr.jpg

    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151676/sorcerer-feedback-for-eric-wrobel-and-the-combat-team/p4]
  • TheLaw
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    Here are some ideas:

    Surge: Make this a magicka-based version of momentum. RNG based on crits is not reliable.

    Skill Description: Focus lightning to gain Major Sorcery for 30 seconds. Also heals X amount every 2 seconds for the duration.

    Morphs

    Power Surge: The ability now applies the Major Brutality and Major Sorcery buffs.

    Rejuvenating Surge: Heals for X amount when the effect ends. The final heal is increased based on the length of the time that Surge has been active. Press ability again to instantly use the heal and refresh the duration.
    New Ability

    Spell Strike: Sorcs need an instant/reliable damage ability.

    Skill Description: Conjure a bound weapon, instantly striking a single target for X amount of magic damage. (6 meter range)

    Morphs

    Lightning Strike: This ability now deals lightning damage and applies minor defile to the target for 6 seconds. (8 meter range)

    Hardened Strike: This this ability is now stamina-based and applies minor fracture to the target for 6 seconds. (5 meter range)
    -= Shahrzad the Great |Sorc| =-
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Adding
    Joy_Division wrote: »
    ****Continued****

    Does 1.6 changes the landscape as far as sorcerers are concerned? I acknowledge that some problems have been addressed. The "instant" cast for Crystal shards is actually now instant. Encase's cost now is somewhat reasonable. The Storm Atronach ultimate seems to be useful. That being said, I still think the base problems of sustained magicka DPS and relatively poor performing spells exist. Mines are still bad and actually worse. Sorcs will still use spell symmetry rather than Dark Exchange. Sorcs can still only cast one curse and the non-pet version does not meaningfully contribute to DPS as other DoTs do. And then there is Critical Surge. What a mess there. From a magicka perspective, this spell now seems strictly worse than the Mage's Guild Entropy which is much cheaper to cast, gives the same essential buff, is an actual DoT sorcs lack, and does provide health benefits. So yet another sorc tool not quite as sharp as something available to all the other classes. I personally would have redesigned the skill so it gives sorcs a unique damage / health bonus that other classes CANNOT get...my instinct would have been to boost light / heavy attacks (probably make heavy attacks create an explosion since they are a huge DPS loss and it fits the mythical theme of a sorcerer channeling magic she cannot control), but instead ZoS went with something generic. As much as things change, they tend to still be the same.

    It is easier to criticize than be correct, and I have done a lot of the former without offering suggestions on how to fix the problems I have laid out. I do think balancing the sorc is the hardest of the 4 classes because it is a niche performer; if we simply boost their performance in generic settings, we risk unleashing a juggernaut in scenarios where the sorc is already strong candidate: specifically, boosting non-pet DPS will unintentionally raise pet DPS and there are already palpable frustrations about shielded sorcs in PvP (although I feel the PvP concern is as yet unproven and a consequence of small scale engagements that have dominated the PTS, a setting where defensive shields are paramount and I'd argue broken in 1.5). And nobody yet knows exactly where magicka based not Pet DPS is in 1.6 yet, although I think we can agree that it is somewhere behind the other DPS archtypes ESO offers. That being said, there are some steps I think most of the ESO community can agree are reasonable and easy to implement that would help alleviate the frustrations of sorc players:

    All of the inefficient skills that plague, pollute, enfeeble, enervate, dilute and despoil that class need to no longer infect the class and ruin the class's diversity. As it is, each class has only 15 skills that distinguish them from the others so every stinker is a large opportunity cost. Specifically:
    • Daedric Mines: This spell costs way too much, is not a sufficient deterrent, is only useful in specific situations, and there is no reason, balance or verisimilitude, for opponents to gain immunity after triggering one. Something else to consider as this spell is easily avoided, any complaints by players as to this spell's power would ring *really* hollow. If I am going to waste - and I use that word intentionally - a slot on this spell, it had better make a legitimate contribution in the rare case it might get used such as a castle breech.
    • Dark Conversion: Spell Symmetry is more appealing because a DPS can get their magicka faster and can easily circumvent the healing penalty. It is also more versatile because I get to choose how many resources to get back, it makes the next spell cheaper to cast, and has very good passives associated with the Mage's Guild. The magicka return for Dark Conversion simply needs to be faster than Spell Symmetry to even begin to make it a legitimate alternative. And as mentioned before, if sorcs are going to have one of their precious 15 skills associated with resource recovery, it needs to be unequivocally better than the other classes.
    • Velocious Curse: I won't comment on the Pet version, but the non-pet version needs to stop masquerading as a direct damage spell or at least do damage efficiently. Since ZoS envisions this as the sorcerer's DoT spell, I would lower the cost of the spell to bring it in line with the excellent damage to magicka ratios of the other DoTs in the game. And I would add a token tick. Alternatively we can keep the high cost for a commensurate increase in its damage.
    • Bound Armor: this spell is so unappealing I never even bothered to unlock it. A toggle, redundant with Lightning Form, and pales in comparison to the DK armor skill makes Bound Armor so bad sorcerers would be better off without it - whatever ZoS came up to replace it couldn't possibly be worse. Suggestion: Drop this skill and replace it with a greater daedra summon that is based on a timer rather than a toggle.
    • Lightning Flood: this is the sorcerer's only class based AoE and I do like the design of the skill. I think it is good Vs. stationary targets and if players activate the synergy. Again a niche performer. I would probably add an aftereffect to opponents that leave the area and slightly increase its damage so as to not make its effectiveness reliant on the synergy.
    • Surge: See above. I think this skill should offer the Sorcerer a unique bonus not accessible by another class (like the original version!). So ditch the Entropy duplicate. Conjured weapons is a Elder Scrolls theme and having the spell augment the caster's weapon so its light / heavy attacks are augmented (and return health or at least the chance). And I still think a heavy attack exploding in a power surge would be really cool...

    The other (non-pet) sorc skills in my eyes are fine in 1.6 (although I still think that an opponent with a gap-closer trumping bolt escape defeats the purpose of the spell). These tweaks would really help make the sorcerers a more flexible and less of a niche class. Also it would be nice for once to think, "I'd really like to slot Daedric Mines but I've got so many interesting options, I'm not sure what to do."

    As for DPS, a more efficient Dark Exchange, a non-redundant Surge, and a legitimate Velocious Curse would at least help the fundamental problem sorcs have had for a while now: they just want a leaderboard conscious guildmaster to open her doors for a non-pet Sorc DPS. I know 1.6 has not even been released yet so we still don't know all the implications and theorycrafters have just begun to scratch the surface.

    That being said, I am wary of what lays in store. I haven't had time to really delve into the PTS, but what I have seen portends that the 1.5 problem of non-pet magicka based DPS still exists. I put together these three examples as a rudimentary baselines. And that's all they are: it's just three archetypical types of DPS in the most basic gear (seducer's) meant to illustrate given similar "casual" environment, the magicka-based sorc is still lacking. Each of these three characters have the same basic layout:
    • 40 attribute points in relevant stat (magicka / stamina)
    • The same 90 relevant champion points (I chose 90 to get the 12% critical chance...I'd imagine many VR14s first 20 CPs are going to be devoted to attainting that Champion perk).
    • A basic rotation without using potions, ultimates, stealth, heavy attack openers, or anything else that might inflate a baseline sustained DPS
    • These are NOT meant to be min /maxed or theory crafted in any way, but what I'd imagine most of us will do: an initial attempt to replicate our 1.5 builds
    .

    My Dragonknight uses the standard dots of Engulfing Flames and Burning Embers, the ever present Crushing Shock, of course Entropy, the Destructive Reach spell for the DoT, and the "mage light" class feature that is now Flames of Oblivion. I will say I *highly* dislike the ball animation for Flames of Oblivion and find the morph "Sea of Flames" absolutely pointless but that is another discussion for another time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA0bhYIpimI

    DKs are now mortals when it comes to DPS because their 1.6K mechanism of destruction has been redesigned. Well it was fun while it lasted. I can get consistent results at about 6.3K. (By way of comparison I got about 9-10K in AA with ultimates, pots, and debuffs).

    Here is my Sorceror. I used Critical Surge rather than entropy because I found it difficult on my DK to switch weapons and weave in a light attack before my opening spell that would resulted in a significant DPS loss since these mammoths die so quickly. I use Velocious Curse because a single cast will yield more damage that Crushing Shock (although I have my doubts how sustainable it is in a regular rotation due to its high cost), Destructive Touch because I have a Gold Master weapon that increases its damage and for its actual DoT, Crystal Fragments whenever it proced, "our" Crushing Shock skill, and Endless Fury to execute.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi_Cnb4bvH8

    Not encouraging! Somewhere in the mid 5ks. I'll accept being lower than DKs because of their DoTs but there is ZERO way that I should be able to equip a two-handed sword and throw on any old medium armor on a *magic* based build (i.e. no attribute points in stamina, all CP points invested in magicka based stuff) and just waltz in there doing comparable DPS - especially since I forgot to even slot Flawless Dawnbreaker or use the Rally skill on that second mammoth...

    So I wondered what my sorcerer could pull with that two-hander if I actually built my character for it. I took the "stamina" versions of the "magic" Champion Points and put 40 attribute into stamina. I have never done Stamina DPS so don't know if I should weave heavy or light attacks. I used light because it was easier and went with a rotation of Brawler (for DoT) - spam Wrecking Blow until execute - Executioner. I am also using just 7 pieces or random medium armor so no sets bonuses.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVF89ASIzk8

    I heard whispers about changing to stamina builds and I'm guessing this is why - and the 8K value does not even consider the additional armor AND spell resistance medium armor provides.

    I know the methodology is not perfect and people will invariably point out flaws, things I could have done better, or find some reason to rationalize why these tests are invalid. Go ahead and do so. It doesn't matter. Perception is reality and for a reasonably sized portion of the community, specifically many of those who play DPS sorcerers who would like to use these characters in an SO raid, we have felt *very* self conscious of our DPS in comparisons to mostly stamina NBs and magicka DKs. Your critiques of my methodology will not somehow change the fact that at least a third of the sorcerer's class skills I identified above pale in comparison to similar skills in other lines, are redundant, too inefficient, or just plain bad. If you are going to tell me if I find X armor set, use the Overload ultimate, and stack spellpower like crazy and I'll DPS just fine, I will counter with: why do I have to use X armor when stamina can slap on anything, why am I forced to use a specific ultimate, and why does stacking spellpower help me and not the DK? Why is sorcerer sustained magicka non-pet DPS such a secret?

    And you have it backwards. Because 1.5 Sorc DPS was a problem, the ideal approach for 1.6 PTS would have been to make it crystal clear as day and unequivocal that this problem has been addressed or at least acknowledged. The very sort of basic rudimentary test I did is PRECISELY the sort of test that ought to have illustrated this. How many frustrated sorcerer players do you think are going to have the patience to uncover the apparent secret that is sustained magicka DPS or will gracefully accept playing a way they would rather not by donning a two-handed sword or slotting pets? People should be excited for and anticipating the release of 1.6. Many aren't.

    The (belabored) point: this analysis has tried to highlight two prevalent themes of magicka based sorcerers that may have been obscured by emotive and often contradictory feedback, but are there: many of their class skills are poor performers that fail to efficiently do the task they are designed for and competitive PvE raiders now ask sorcerer players to log onto their non sorcerer "alts." I will grant these problems may not have been apparent to even the developers for understandable reasons and that it is *possible* to complete all the content in the game with sorcerers. Nevertheless, they do exist.

    Whether or not the secret of sustained magicka-based Sorc DPS has been solved one cannot say for sure. However, as of 1.62 the sorcerer class is still plagued by what I believe are objectively undesirable and inefficient spells. With the exception of critical surge (which I believed needs to be redesigned), I can see no reason why these cannot be tweaked to be competitive for a PTS 1.63 patch. And I still think the redundant Bound Armor spell needs to go for the option of a summon not tied to a toggle. Just taking this step alone will make the sorcerer are more versatile and desirable performer and go some way to alleviating that pesky DPS issue.

    I understand there is a danger in turning the sorcerer into a potential juggernaut because magicka based DPS can be supplemented to a degree by pets and they can be a strong class in their niche, as many PvP PTS duelers believe. But I think I can speak for many of those sorcerers who feel frustrated that we would like to see conspicuous and unequivocal signals that the situation is improving whereas right now we see omens of portent, which make many us irrational and overly protective of what we do have - witness all the (misguided) cries about the Crushing Shock nerf. We just want to log into the PTS, bring our main on a Sanctum raid, not feel compelled to play a specific way, and not cringe when others post their DPS. That's really all.

    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151643/some-observations-on-the-sorcerer-the-potential-game-changer-that-is-unwanted-in-sanctum-raids/p1]
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Adding
    Gyudan wrote: »
    Great posts OP.

    3 necessary changes:

    Make curse a real dot
    Longer duration, lower damage, ticks every 0.5 or 1 seconds. People still complain about sorcerers being too bursty in PVP, which was mentioned in yesterday's ESO Live as a major issue for the class. This would reduce burst and increase sustained damage. Everyone wins.

    Make surge unique
    This skill is class-defining and it shouldn't be overpowered by Entropy and Momentum. Either buff surge (extended duration, additional boost for 5% damage dealt, ...) or nerf the others (shorter duration, higher cost). Entropy shouldn't even get that Major Sorcery buff in the first place, as it was already a decent choice for many players before 1,6 with the 8% health increase from the Structured Entropy morph.

    Buff Bound armor (and make it less ugly)
    For casters it's currently much less viable than Mage's Light as a toggle, since Mage's Light benefits from the Mage's Guild passive adding 2% max magicka and 2% magicka regen. For a defensive role, the armor and spell resistance increase is very low and I don't see any reason to use it in addition to lightning form.
    This skill also looks as beautiful as Paul Sage's shirts. Please do something, since it's not even possible to hide it with a costume.

    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151643/some-observations-on-the-sorcerer-the-potential-game-changer-that-is-unwanted-in-sanctum-raids/p1]
  • CP5
    CP5
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    Adding
    Nihil wrote: »
    Thinking on this at work, I think their are two parts more to the problem. 1) Sorc players don't know what we want. We as the forum community won't be able to agree on how to fix the class without breaking it. We see players who want more survivabilty but don't want to give up mobility. We want more damage and more self heals. We want to do descent damage with out summons, but some players choose the class for summons and want them to be competative. The forums want it all but to not give up anything in return. Problem 2) The sorcerer class is honestly on the edge of being strong in every area (but being a healer) that if we push to far we will tip into being overpowered.

    For me to explain this I am going to evaluate a couple skills we have. First controversy, Surge. Surge has turned into basically a throw away skill for most players, partly due to entropy, Entropy cost less, does damage, heals and adds magicka / magicka regen. While Surge last about 40 % longer but cost over 3 times as much mana, does no damage and in most cases the weapon power increase wont be important (possible use for caltraps when bosses wont move for 30 seconds and survive long enough maybe?). What Surge does is give us a higher potential heal, even with the cool down. When testing out numbers My surge paired with liquid lightning and thundering presence (choosen for low damage dots that could eat up our heals) produced a 170 - 300 hps, while entropy provided a 150 ish on the same character. Now this was with surge only procing off dots (or intial hit of liquid lightning), the potential is that it can do more healing for the time depending on how the crits over lap (also done with only a template character). This leads us to having a problem where If we buff surge, this skill might become to strong again.

    With 1.6 we saw an increase to daedric mines damage, a substantial one, but to counter it they also made boss' monster immune to it's damage after popping one of them for 1 second. Now lets look at damage on my template character, the mines base damage is 3.9k (per mine), while my CS is 3.3k. This means the base damage before crit / damage reduction is close to 20k for all 5 mines (tank would have to maneuver), or close to 12k instantly (if the boss is large enough to hit all three with, 8k if you can only hit with 2). While I don't think they should give complete immunity to following hits (due to extraordinary cost), The damage of a full Daedric mines would blow every other class out of the water, even with the 3 secondish cool down. I personally would think reducing damage for following mines to 10/15 % damage (within a second / 2 seconds) would keep this viable without pushing it to far over board. A good team might still be able to push the boss over the mines slower increasing the damage per cast drastically... But then they deserve that for being so well coordinated.

    Velicious Curse, Damage is about similar to a DoT (little less then some class' DoT but also take less time to capatilize on damage so not as likely to cut short) all pushed into a burst. This burst is appreciated by pvp players, but questioned by pve players... Hard to balance this without making one side to angry. Cost is a little high, but it does have an aoe factor to it too ( I would personally give up the aoe, for a little more damage / lower cost but not sure if others/ZOS agree).

    Bound armor, Sorcs are the only one that can use the minor buffs without casting a skill frequently (Dk need to cast stone fist / reflective scales to get the minor buff, or have someone use blessing of protection to get these buffs). I think this might be more beneficial to tanks then dps tho, as the dps gained from it will be less then that gained by inner light, and mainly giving a Damage reduction of 1.5-2 % for dps.

    We just have a lot of things that if we push to far we will become overpowered, and thus we are a hard one to balance. With the coming changes there is some legitimate fear that light armor sorcs might be a thing of the past. But we still don't know the full implications of the changes. With being able to heal off of shields, we gain more survivability. If players start working in thundering presence while in the bubble shield ( or stand in the middle of lightning flood) we have the potential to lower the damage that melee opponents deal to our shields by 15 % (concussion effect).

    I hope that they do balance these new changes appropriately that will allow us to be competitive and not weaken us to much, but I can see why they also would have a hard time with our class.

    From [http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/151643/some-observations-on-the-sorcerer-the-potential-game-changer-that-is-unwanted-in-sanctum-raids/p1]
  • Jar_Ek
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    I have rewritten the Daedric Summoning line (it is just some ideas): HERE

    And have the following additional comments (apologies for the length):

    General critique
    The sorcerer seems to have been designed to be a ranged magicka DPS class that holds its opponents at bay with various forms of CC and pets... and hence has time to spare as opponents are CCd. This is a variant on the classic kiting play-style.

    However the reality is that this play-style fails in ESO for a number of reasons.
    1. Most bosses and mini-bosses are immune to CC effects.
    2. Group Dungeons do not support this play-style. Generally there are too many mobs, that are too spread out to support kiting in group dungeons. Especially as the rest of the group are unlikely to be kiting.
    3. Players have CC break and immunity, which makes them hard to kite.
    4. Most of the CC effects have a very limited duration. This means that the sorcerer must burn down opponents before they are out of CC or re-CC before they get to him.
    5. Most CC is not hard and hence many opponents can still attack back with ranged abilities.

    Mages Fury: Ranged execute and as such is useful primarily for magicka sorcerers. However due to the base damage level it is significantly less useful outside of execution phases.
    Suggestion: Tweak the damage numbers such that it provides a bit more pre-execution (whilst keeping the same damage for execute phase) would make it more generally useful.
    Endless Fury
    Killing an opponent with this restores magicka - which means this morph does nothing unless you kill your opponent. Thus it provides no real benefit in the PVE fights you are likely to use it (i.e. single target boss execute phase) and the fact that you must perform the killing blow with this spell means that you can only be sure to get the magicka return in solo play.
    Suggestions: As a minimum this needs to provide magicka if the opponent dies within x seconds of being hit with the spell (approx 2 secs). A better solution / morph would be that each subsequent cast of this spell reduces the magicka cost of the next cast of this spell within 2 seconds by 10% - to a minimum of 50% reduction. Now that would be endless... well more endless anyway.

    Surge:
    Surge now provides weapon damage buff and healing on critical as the basic ability - which is a good idea (esp. for stamina sorcerers), but the healing component has a 0.25 second CD which make the healing far too random to be effective (it will proc on any critical and hence can triggered by a minor DoT crit) and means there is a detrimental synergy with Lightning Form / Splash (their DoTs can trigger the healing, which are likely to be lower than any active ability damage).
    Suggestion: The simplest solution would be to reduce the CD to 0.05 seconds such that simultaneous abilities do not proc it but everything else does. A (much) better solution would be to remove the CD, and put a cap on the number of simultaneous heals (or those within 0.05 seconds) that can be received (my suggestion would be 3 or 4 max).
    Critical morph:
    The increase in healing is not significant enough to be worthwhile whilst the CD remains in place.
    Suggestion: An option would be to remove the CD for this morph only (if the base ability still has a CD) or to add an additional weapon buff (if the CD is removed for the base ability)
    Power morph:
    This is the magicka sorcerers choice and provides a spell power buff as well. However this is currently not as good as the mage guild skill line Entropy, which also benefits from better passives (for its use).
    Suggestion: This is only likely to be redeemed if the CD is removed as suggested for the base ability. In addition, the removal of the weapon buff and provision of another appropriate spell buff would help.

    Bolt Escape:
    This has been over-nerfed - if the idea is to limit the number of casts, then implement an ever increasing cost per cast (+20% per cast within 2seconds of last) to a 300% cap. Do not remove magicka regeneration (as this also makes the Capacitor passive useless for those 4 seconds) as the whole point of Bolt Escape is to, well, escape and presumably recover. Not escape and wait around a bit.

    Crystal Shards
    This is almost exclusively taken for the Fragments morph which provides a chance of an instant proc.... which means we need things to proc it - like a DoT. So please make Daedric Curse a DoT with a detonate, rather than a nothing and then a detonate. The DoT can be small, it will still help.

    Crystal Blast
    This is morph rarely taken because of the cast time. The idea of an AoE version of the spell is nice, but the cast time makes it generally unappealing compared to the other morph.
    Suggestion: Make this a morph that scales off stamina. Enable it to proc off criticals (35% chance) for a insta-cast, reduced cost version that fires at melee range only (8m) like crystal shard. This would not have an AoE component.

    Encase
    A root that is activated in a cone. This has a number of issues. The first is that because it has no ground decal and is instant, you have no idea which targets will be hit. The second is that a cone means that multiple ranged targets may be hit, but few that are in melee (i.e. its a kiting tool) - which limits its role usage. It find very little usage in most builds (exception being kiting PvP, end even then it's rare).
    Suggestion: Make it a ground cone AoE that has exactly the same effect as current, but has a 3s activation period (i.e. any time within that an opponent will activate the effect - which will last its full duration - so opponents can run into it and it will trigger on them). This allows it to be pre-cast and makes it more likely to be useful.
    Shattering Prison:
    Causes damage when effect ends.
    Suggestion: Make this morph a ground AoE centred on the caster (rather than a cone) that has a 3s activation period (i.e. any time within that period an opponent will activate the effect - which will last its full duration). This makes the ability far more useful to melee DPS and Tanks.

    Dark Exchange
    This is a heal and restoration ability that CCs the sorcerer by applying a snare and being a channel. This means that unless the sorcerer is already safe then it is no use to him/her. This makes perfect sense if you consider a kiting, CC-ing style of play. Get hit, CC foe, step back, heal. Unfortunately this almost never happens. When the ability is required, your pet is generally dead, the foe is CC immune (or you're surrounded) and you are low on resources. So not being able to do anything other than walk slowly is simply not going to help.
    Suggestion: Change into a toggle (what another!!). Whilst toggled on, the ability swaps stamina for magicka and health. Whilst toggled off, it does nothing. It does not need to be channelled, and does not snare you. However the conversion ratio is decreased (i.e. costs more).
    Morph:
    One should be a switch from magicka to stamina.
    One should cause a minor AoE Dot effect when active (very low damage).

    Daedric Mines
    This would be okay in the new form if it was invisible to opponents (its a minefield), if it stopped charges (including bolt escape), and it it suffered from diminishing returns on boss activation (i.e. second one the boss hits in 1 second is 50% damage, 3rd is 25%, etc).

    Blood Magic
    This tends to be far less useful than it should be because most the spells/abilities are best used before a foe gets to you... which means you haven't yet been hurt - so the heal is wasted. The exception being crystal fragments because it can be insta-cast and causes decent damage.
    Suggestion: Some of the main skill changes would help, esp. making Encase have a radius component, improved Daedric mines.

    Exploitation:
    This now does nothing for stamina builds as this is a spell only buff. It would be okay if combined with a decent Surge ability (no CD) and a modified Crystal Blast (that uses critical to proc). It would be better if it buffed both weapon and spell critical chance however.

    Negate.
    Really this have been killed... it is no longer an ultimate. If the continual removal of abilities is such a problem, them make us a new ultimate and kill this. Hell you could just tack the negation effect onto a passive or active ability as a one shot.
    Edited by Jar_Ek on February 15, 2015 10:31PM
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