Champion System & Its Implications on Build Diversity in PvP

DDuke

Based upon what was heard on the latest ESO Live (December 19th), I would like to talk about the possibly unwanted consequences.

Please note that none of the changes are final & are probably subject to change, they are in fact not even in the PTS yet, so consider this "early feedback".

Current Situation

Currently in ESO, pretty much all the competitive magicka builds are built upon the concept that you have a powerful dmg shield or a heal that can keep you alive until you run out of magicka, while the rest of your skills are for dealing damage.

Basicly, the only difference between a magicka build without a dmg shield/heal and a magicka build with one or both of them, is that the other magicka build without dmg shield/heal will die after enough hits, while the other one dies only when he runs out of magicka.

This is further proven by poll results, that indicate less than 10% of players are playing without heals or dmg shields slotted: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/144002/do-you-have-a-heal-or-a-dmg-shield-slotted-on-your-hotbar

This is caused by the following factors:

• Inability to rely on CC for killing opponent, since CC can almost always be broken. The only time CC cannot be broken, is when it a) bugs or b) opponent runs out of stamina after a long "resource fight".
• No cooldowns on skills, meaning you can spam that dmg shield/heal as long as you have magicka. By default, dmg shields/heals are stronger than damaging abilities, meaning that you are practically unkillable in 1v1 situation as long as you have magicka.

Stamina builds are also increasingly dependent on having a restoration staff on the 2nd weapon bar, or a class ability granting a dmg shield or a heal after the nerf to sneak attack damage (patch 1.5).

This leaves the game with very little diversity in playstyles & classic RPG roles, such as the stealthy "rogue", a heavy armour "warrior", or a classic "mage" (not some hybrid cleric/priest with heals/shields).

This is caused by the fact that you are pretty much forced to spam your heal/dmg shield button to survive in PvP.


New Information from ESO Live (December 19th)

Having recently resubscribed in anticipation of the Champion System, I was shocked at how many times I heard the word "damage shield".

After Champion System, among other things you get a damage shield from:

• Resurrecting someone
• Drinking a potion
• Blocking

I would like to ask, why is the playstyle that is already the only one that works competitively in PvP, being forced down our throats, instead of making other playstyles more rewarding & interesting for people who do not enjoy playing the "resource game" with heals and damage shields.

For instance, when asked about whether stealth playstyle is getting any love with the Champion System this is what Systems Designer Eric Wrobel answered:

There’s the new champion passive that gives you the faster stealth attacks. In general, in PvE, sneak attacks opening at the beginning of fights are really useful to use. In addition to that, in the PvE vs. PvP context, the bonus damage you deal in PvE is a lot higher. If we had that much bonus damage in PvP people would be falling over instantly. That part of it is definitely useful. Potentially people can still try to sneak past mobs in a dungeon if they are interested in doing that sort of thing. Also, heavy attack restores resources now, so being able to slip into stealth, do a heavy attack to get resources back can be really useful.

He basicly just confirmed us that stealth burst, one of the few things that could get past the dmg shield and heal spam, was nerfed and that there would be nothing new for people who enjoy playing a rogue/assassin type character.

Instead of getting anything interesting for this different playstyle, we'll be choking on heals/dmg shields even more, as stamina builds also get a heal in patch 1.6.

How are we going to be different & play differently than magicka builds I ask you, if we perform the same functions in almost identical way?


Another thing that raised my curiosity was, when discussing constellations Game Designer Maria Aliprando mentioned that:

The Shadow helps you evade and elude your enemies, stealth costs less stamina and CCs against you last less time.

Now, this to me seems quite backwards, as stealth characters are usually the ones that are doing the CC, not otherwise around and something like this passive would be much better suited in one of the Warrior constellations.

This might just be accidentally in the wrong tree, but after hearing about that it really makes me wonder whether the designers of this passive & stealth combat in general really know how stealthy "rogue" type characters really play like.


That said, there were many things announced that I really liked, such as class skills getting stamina morphs also, and some skills gettting revamped.

This, however, will do nothing to diversify the gameplay itself, if it still revolves around heals & dmg shields. It will only be heals & dmg shields with different flavour, with even more dmg shields than ever before.


What Could be Changed for the Better

I made multiple propositions regarding the stealth gameplay on an "article" I wrote at Tamriel Foundry. It's a bit outdated at the moment (still holds true, though), but I encourage you to take a look if you're interested: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/sneak-attack-short-synopsis-proposed-changes/

Most people ended up hating the new Snipe even more than the old one, even tho it's actually weaker in both 1v1 & 1vX than before. Go figure...


As for making other playstyles viable, I have some ideas.

First important step would be separating spell damage and healing, making people have to decide between having survivability or dealing huge damage, not just having both without losing basicly anything, or you could be "average" at both.

What would affect what:

• Spell Damage: damaging spells, DoTs, pet strength.
• Spell Healing: damage shields, heals.

This change alone would make magicka builds without dmg shield or heal viable.
E.g. mage, wizard, sorcerer etc.

This would also make it much easier to balance magicka damaging abilities with stamina ones.

For making heavy armour DPS a thing & have it's own playstyle, I would add a passive that increases your melee damage/crit strike every time you take damage, and have it stack up to 30 or something.
This way you wouldn't initially be able to get the same burst as medium armour wearers, but after stacking up that passive you would be dealing significant damage.

It also wouldn't encourage using dmg shields, since you do not gain stacks while not losing health and getting +spell healing would in turn reduce your melee damage.

For PvE, I would add a new skill that allows you to damage yourself slowly in some way & thus gain stacks that allow you to catch up/surpass medium armour DPS.

I believe these changes would make the heavy armour warrior playstyle viable, without forcing you to play as a "paladin", spamming dmg shields or heals.

To further make melee builds more appealing to people than they currently are, I would add Dual Wield or/and Two-Handed an ability that deals increased damage on blocking targets & prevents them from blocking for X seconds if hit while they were blocking.

I believe this would provide a whole new interesting element to PvP (and possibly PvE as well), and would probably settle most of the block casting complaints.

In addition to all this, I propose the player health in Cyrodiil gets further increased (significantly) to increase the very low time to kill on this game & to give players a chance to react.

With this, I conclude my feedback and welcome any of you reading this to provide some more based on the subject, or the ideas I've proposed.

We are all interested in making this game more diverse & fun experience, and I'm confident we can provide the correct feedback to ZOS in order to achieve this.

Again, please note that none of the changes we heard about in ESO Live are final & are probably subject to change.


Sincerely,
Decimus

TLDR: Promises of more build diversity, deliverance of even more damage shields and heals (even for stamina builds).
Focus being on gameplay revolving around everyone being a "healer tank dps" in PvP, instead of rewarding specialization.

Darkonflare15

@DDuke
The Shadow helps you evade and elude your enemies, stealth costs less stamina and CCs against you last less time.


I do not think it is in the wrong tree. As they stated we rotate around the three types of the constellations. So we will always have to put a point in the mage, warrior, and Thief trees. This means that each constellation is base off their respected resource.
Since Thief is base on stamina, the shadow which is one of the Thiefs charges is base on stamina like passives hence why CC is a passive in this tree. The tree represents evading and stamina which is why CC effecting you makes sense.
Now the reason they did so they can prevent people from stacking points in one area to fit their archetype. So they put useful things in all trees that would benefit all play styles.

For example, I play a stealth like character, I would put points in ritual for the increase in critical and points om Attronach for increase weapon damage. In the warrior tree: I would put points in the Lord to get the damage shield on potions because I am squishy and I could use the damage shield from a potion to protect me from damaging skill that could of killed when I am running away. Now last for thief tree: I would put points in shadow to evade moves and the tower to get some stamina reduction. These allow you to make a decent build for you tastes. The best things is you reset it if you do not like the setup you start with. So this does wonders for build diversity.

Nice rant. I just wanted let you know that this may actually help our builds.

DDuke

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

@DDuke
The Shadow helps you evade and elude your enemies, stealth costs less stamina and CCs against you last less time.


I do not think it is in the wrong tree. As they stated we rotate around the three types of the constellations. So we will always have to put a point in the mage, warrior, and Thief trees. This means that each constellation is base off their respected resource.
Since Thief is base on stamina, the shadow which is one of the Thiefs charges is base on stamina like passives hence why CC is a passive in this tree. The tree represents evading and stamina which is why CC effecting you makes sense.
Now the reason they did so they can prevent people from stacking points in one area to fit their archetype. So they put useful things in all trees that would benefit all play styles.

For example, I play a stealth like character, I would put points in ritual for the increase in critical and points om Attronach for increase weapon damage. In the warrior tree: I would put points in the Lord to get the damage shield on potions because I am squishy and I could use the damage shield from a potion to protect me from damaging skill that could of killed when I am running away. Now last for thief tree: I would put points in shadow to evade moves and the tower to get some stamina reduction. These allow you to make a decent build for you tastes. The best things is you reset it if you do not like the setup you start with. So this does wonders for build diversity.

Nice rant. I just wanted let you know that this may actually help our builds.

I have boldened what I feel is the problem with this approach.

Doesn't it worry you that specialization is something that gets punished in a RPG? Rarely have I played a RPG that punishes me (by making me less competitive) because I wanted to play a "pure" class, instead of a hybrid (e.g. pretty much all the magicka builds currently are a hybrid of mage/cleric).
In no other MMO (or even RPG) have I ever felt so forced to play in a certain way.

The main problem lies in the fact that you must rely on the damage shields/heals in order to be competitive in PvP (not as big of a problem in PvE), and they are making them even more prevalent by introducing these passives.
What if I don't want to play that way, being super defensive & able to tank a whole lot of damage?
What if I want to play a role, instead of all of them?

Now, of course I can avoid putting points into these passives that give me free damage shields, but how competitive do you think that is going to be, when the whole point of the game seems to be spamming dmg shields/heals as long as possible to stay alive (as explained on my "rant")?

The fact is that we will continue to see the prevalence of "dmg shield+heal gameplay" not only as strong, but even stronger than before, and even stamina builds are pushed towards this direction.

That is all fine, if you like playing as a "tank dps healer", but please consider there are other kinds of players as well, lots of them, who do not enjoy this kind of gameplay and having a free reset doesn't really help those players enjoy play the game the way they like.


As for the passive being stamina based and thus in The Shadow, I do believe I heard them mentioning other stamina-based things like lower blocking cost being in one of the Warrior constellations, which is why I find this odd.

Also, while rogue type characters usually have means of avoiding damage, those means are in most RPGs CCing your opponent (not the other way around) or utilizing stealth to your advantage.


Regardless, thanks for your feedback.

Darkonflare15

DDuke wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

@DDuke
The Shadow helps you evade and elude your enemies, stealth costs less stamina and CCs against you last less time.


I do not think it is in the wrong tree. As they stated we rotate around the three types of the constellations. So we will always have to put a point in the mage, warrior, and Thief trees. This means that each constellation is base off their respected resource.
Since Thief is base on stamina, the shadow which is one of the Thiefs charges is base on stamina like passives hence why CC is a passive in this tree. The tree represents evading and stamina which is why CC effecting you makes sense.
Now the reason they did so they can prevent people from stacking points in one area to fit their archetype. So they put useful things in all trees that would benefit all play styles.

For example, I play a stealth like character, I would put points in ritual for the increase in critical and points om Attronach for increase weapon damage. In the warrior tree: I would put points in the Lord to get the damage shield on potions because I am squishy and I could use the damage shield from a potion to protect me from damaging skill that could of killed when I am running away. Now last for thief tree: I would put points in shadow to evade moves and the tower to get some stamina reduction. These allow you to make a decent build for you tastes. The best things is you reset it if you do not like the setup you start with. So this does wonders for build diversity.

Nice rant. I just wanted let you know that this may actually help our builds.

I have boldened what I feel is the problem with this approach.

Doesn't it worry you that specialization is something that gets punished in a RPG? Rarely have I played a RPG that punishes me (by making me less competitive) because I wanted to play a "pure" class, instead of a hybrid (e.g. magicka builds currently are a hybrid of mage/cleric).
In no other MMO (or even RPG) have I ever felt so forced to play in a certain way.

The main problem lies in the fact that you must rely on the damage shields/heals in order to be competitive in PvP (not as big of a problem in PvE), and they are making them even more prevalent by introducing these passives.
What if I don't want to play that way, being super defensive & able to tank a whole lot of damage?
What if I want to play a role, instead of all of them?

Now, of course I can avoid putting points into these passives that give me free damage shields, but how competitive do you think that is going to be, when the whole point of the game seems to be spamming dmg shields/heals as long as possible to stay alive (as explained on my "rant")?

The fact is that we will continue to see the prevalence of "dmg shield+heal gameplay" not only as strong, but even stronger than before, and even stamina builds are pushed towards this direction.

That is all fine, if you like playing as a "tank dps healer", but please consider there are other kinds of players as well, lots of them, who do not enjoy this kind of gameplay and having a free reset doesn't really help those players enjoy play the game the way they like.


As for the passive being stamina based and thus in The Shadow, I do believe I heard them mentioning other stamina-based things like lower blocking cost being in one of the Warrior constellations, which is why I find this odd.

Also, while rogue type characters usually have means of avoiding damage, those means are in most RPGs CCing your opponent (not the other way around) or utilizing stealth to your advantage.


Regardless, thanks for your feedback.

Yeah I understand though I never played pvp so I never really was force to play a certain way I always played the way I wanted and the more changes they have made. Have made my build even better. What I mean archetype I mean single champion area not necessarily the actually class. Like stacking only defense or stack only utility because that is how the champion is separated. It is seperated into warrior: health and defense, Mage: Attack and Magicka, and Thief: Utility and stamina.
Now I believe they are trying now to make it more balance so now a stealth class would work. You cannot really blame ZOS in what they are trying to do. More damage shields and armor because people complain they were too squishy. More weapon damage because people complain they were not get enough weapon damage or spell damage because of their class. Remember the bring stamina to where magicka is now threads. Now they are trying to make stamina viable by itself. They are only trying to please people but this also displeases people as well.

DDuke

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

@DDuke
The Shadow helps you evade and elude your enemies, stealth costs less stamina and CCs against you last less time.


I do not think it is in the wrong tree. As they stated we rotate around the three types of the constellations. So we will always have to put a point in the mage, warrior, and Thief trees. This means that each constellation is base off their respected resource.
Since Thief is base on stamina, the shadow which is one of the Thiefs charges is base on stamina like passives hence why CC is a passive in this tree. The tree represents evading and stamina which is why CC effecting you makes sense.
Now the reason they did so they can prevent people from stacking points in one area to fit their archetype. So they put useful things in all trees that would benefit all play styles.

For example, I play a stealth like character, I would put points in ritual for the increase in critical and points om Attronach for increase weapon damage. In the warrior tree: I would put points in the Lord to get the damage shield on potions because I am squishy and I could use the damage shield from a potion to protect me from damaging skill that could of killed when I am running away. Now last for thief tree: I would put points in shadow to evade moves and the tower to get some stamina reduction. These allow you to make a decent build for you tastes. The best things is you reset it if you do not like the setup you start with. So this does wonders for build diversity.

Nice rant. I just wanted let you know that this may actually help our builds.

I have boldened what I feel is the problem with this approach.

Doesn't it worry you that specialization is something that gets punished in a RPG? Rarely have I played a RPG that punishes me (by making me less competitive) because I wanted to play a "pure" class, instead of a hybrid (e.g. magicka builds currently are a hybrid of mage/cleric).
In no other MMO (or even RPG) have I ever felt so forced to play in a certain way.

The main problem lies in the fact that you must rely on the damage shields/heals in order to be competitive in PvP (not as big of a problem in PvE), and they are making them even more prevalent by introducing these passives.
What if I don't want to play that way, being super defensive & able to tank a whole lot of damage?
What if I want to play a role, instead of all of them?

Now, of course I can avoid putting points into these passives that give me free damage shields, but how competitive do you think that is going to be, when the whole point of the game seems to be spamming dmg shields/heals as long as possible to stay alive (as explained on my "rant")?

The fact is that we will continue to see the prevalence of "dmg shield+heal gameplay" not only as strong, but even stronger than before, and even stamina builds are pushed towards this direction.

That is all fine, if you like playing as a "tank dps healer", but please consider there are other kinds of players as well, lots of them, who do not enjoy this kind of gameplay and having a free reset doesn't really help those players enjoy play the game the way they like.


As for the passive being stamina based and thus in The Shadow, I do believe I heard them mentioning other stamina-based things like lower blocking cost being in one of the Warrior constellations, which is why I find this odd.

Also, while rogue type characters usually have means of avoiding damage, those means are in most RPGs CCing your opponent (not the other way around) or utilizing stealth to your advantage.


Regardless, thanks for your feedback.

Yeah I understand though I never played pvp so I never really was force to play a certain way I always played the way I wanted and the more changes they have made. Have made my build even better. What I mean archetype I mean single champion area not necessarily the actually class. Like stacking only defense or stack only utility because that is how the champion is separated. It is seperated into warrior: health and defense, Mage: Attack and Magicka, and Thief: Utility and stamina.
Now I believe they are trying now to make it more balance so now a stealth class would work. You cannot really blame ZOS in what they are trying to do. More damage shields and armor because people complain they were too squishy. More weapon damage because people complain they were not get enough weapon damage or spell damage because of their class. Remember the bring stamina to where magicka is now threads. Now they are trying to make stamina viable by itself. They are only trying to please people but this also displeases people as well.

Yes, I can blame them, but not because of what they are trying to achieve, but rather how they are trying to achieve this.

They are basicly trying to make stamina builds equal to magicka builds, by making them perform in the exact same manner. This does not widen build diversity & playstyles in PvP, it makes it even more condensed into the "dmg shield+heal" that is literally everywhere already.

Also regarding the champion constellations: note that if you decided to stack only on "health and defense", that would make you fairly lousy dps, while making you a good tank. If you decided to stack on utility & stamina only, you'd be a bad tank in return.
I don't see why this is a bad thing, people should be allowed to play the way they want, instead of being forced to become a "tank dps healer", when only one of those appeal to you.

There are also other ways of making players survive longer, than giving them heals/dmg shields that don't fit their archetype.

I have some ways of achieving this for rogue archetype characters listed in my thread at Tamriel Foundry (http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/sneak-attack-short-synopsis-proposed-changes) & I'm sure something different could be made for mage/warrior archetypes also (although, is it such a bad thing if a DPS character has less survivability than a healer or a heavily armoured tank?)

Darkonflare15

DDuke wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

@DDuke
The Shadow helps you evade and elude your enemies, stealth costs less stamina and CCs against you last less time.


I do not think it is in the wrong tree. As they stated we rotate around the three types of the constellations. So we will always have to put a point in the mage, warrior, and Thief trees. This means that each constellation is base off their respected resource.
Since Thief is base on stamina, the shadow which is one of the Thiefs charges is base on stamina like passives hence why CC is a passive in this tree. The tree represents evading and stamina which is why CC effecting you makes sense.
Now the reason they did so they can prevent people from stacking points in one area to fit their archetype. So they put useful things in all trees that would benefit all play styles.

For example, I play a stealth like character, I would put points in ritual for the increase in critical and points om Attronach for increase weapon damage. In the warrior tree: I would put points in the Lord to get the damage shield on potions because I am squishy and I could use the damage shield from a potion to protect me from damaging skill that could of killed when I am running away. Now last for thief tree: I would put points in shadow to evade moves and the tower to get some stamina reduction. These allow you to make a decent build for you tastes. The best things is you reset it if you do not like the setup you start with. So this does wonders for build diversity.

Nice rant. I just wanted let you know that this may actually help our builds.

I have boldened what I feel is the problem with this approach.

Doesn't it worry you that specialization is something that gets punished in a RPG? Rarely have I played a RPG that punishes me (by making me less competitive) because I wanted to play a "pure" class, instead of a hybrid (e.g. magicka builds currently are a hybrid of mage/cleric).
In no other MMO (or even RPG) have I ever felt so forced to play in a certain way.

The main problem lies in the fact that you must rely on the damage shields/heals in order to be competitive in PvP (not as big of a problem in PvE), and they are making them even more prevalent by introducing these passives.
What if I don't want to play that way, being super defensive & able to tank a whole lot of damage?
What if I want to play a role, instead of all of them?

Now, of course I can avoid putting points into these passives that give me free damage shields, but how competitive do you think that is going to be, when the whole point of the game seems to be spamming dmg shields/heals as long as possible to stay alive (as explained on my "rant")?

The fact is that we will continue to see the prevalence of "dmg shield+heal gameplay" not only as strong, but even stronger than before, and even stamina builds are pushed towards this direction.

That is all fine, if you like playing as a "tank dps healer", but please consider there are other kinds of players as well, lots of them, who do not enjoy this kind of gameplay and having a free reset doesn't really help those players enjoy play the game the way they like.


As for the passive being stamina based and thus in The Shadow, I do believe I heard them mentioning other stamina-based things like lower blocking cost being in one of the Warrior constellations, which is why I find this odd.

Also, while rogue type characters usually have means of avoiding damage, those means are in most RPGs CCing your opponent (not the other way around) or utilizing stealth to your advantage.


Regardless, thanks for your feedback.

Yeah I understand though I never played pvp so I never really was force to play a certain way I always played the way I wanted and the more changes they have made. Have made my build even better. What I mean archetype I mean single champion area not necessarily the actually class. Like stacking only defense or stack only utility because that is how the champion is separated. It is seperated into warrior: health and defense, Mage: Attack and Magicka, and Thief: Utility and stamina.
Now I believe they are trying now to make it more balance so now a stealth class would work. You cannot really blame ZOS in what they are trying to do. More damage shields and armor because people complain they were too squishy. More weapon damage because people complain they were not get enough weapon damage or spell damage because of their class. Remember the bring stamina to where magicka is now threads. Now they are trying to make stamina viable by itself. They are only trying to please people but this also displeases people as well.

Yes, I can blame them, but not because of what they are trying to achieve, but rather how they are trying to achieve this.

They are basicly trying to make stamina builds equal to magicka builds, by making them perform in the exact same manner. This does not widen build diversity & playstyles in PvP, it makes it even more condensed into the "dmg shield+heal" that is literally everywhere already.

Also regarding the champion constellations: note that if you decided to stack only on "health and defense", that would make you fairly lousy dps, while making you a good tank. If you decided to stack on utility & stamina only, you'd be a bad tank in return.
I don't see why this is a bad thing, people should be allowed to play the way they want, instead of being forced to become a "tank dps healer", when only one of those appeal to you.

There are also other ways of making players survive longer, than giving them heals/dmg shields that don't fit their archetype.

I have some ways of achieving this for rogue archetype characters listed in my thread at Tamriel Foundry (http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/sneak-attack-short-synopsis-proposed-changes) & I'm sure something different could be made for mage/warrior archetypes also (although, is it such a bad thing if a DPS character has less survivability than a healer or a heavily armoured tank?)

Yeah but the problem is play as you want. So far ,all I see is people using what the best of the system to be successful and as long as this stays it will continue to be like that. No problem being squishy if you do want to be but if you cannot be successful with being like that then that is on the player. The reason they have damage shields is so that people who want to play a light armor tank that relies on damage shields can tank. Some people want to be this thus play as you want See if you make a system that allows that; than plenty of people are going to use what is successful. They have a way to increase evasiveness now.

Does this mean everybody going to do that. Not really but by having build diversity you will always have people who just want the cookie cutter build. Now if this system allow you to be successful with the "play as you want"system then that is a good. Since I have seen they have another method of revealing people in stealth, I hope they have a way to re-stealth in battle than that be nice.

All they have done with stamina is add more utility to it. The heal using stamaina is not really out place plus I prefer they did this so I do not have use a staff, which for me is more out of place than the ability. So far we get one heal spell for stamina is not like there is plenty of them and if player does not want to use the skill than do not have use it. We can only wait to see how this system turn out before we can make a decision on what direction it is going.

DDuke

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

@DDuke
The Shadow helps you evade and elude your enemies, stealth costs less stamina and CCs against you last less time.


I do not think it is in the wrong tree. As they stated we rotate around the three types of the constellations. So we will always have to put a point in the mage, warrior, and Thief trees. This means that each constellation is base off their respected resource.
Since Thief is base on stamina, the shadow which is one of the Thiefs charges is base on stamina like passives hence why CC is a passive in this tree. The tree represents evading and stamina which is why CC effecting you makes sense.
Now the reason they did so they can prevent people from stacking points in one area to fit their archetype. So they put useful things in all trees that would benefit all play styles.

For example, I play a stealth like character, I would put points in ritual for the increase in critical and points om Attronach for increase weapon damage. In the warrior tree: I would put points in the Lord to get the damage shield on potions because I am squishy and I could use the damage shield from a potion to protect me from damaging skill that could of killed when I am running away. Now last for thief tree: I would put points in shadow to evade moves and the tower to get some stamina reduction. These allow you to make a decent build for you tastes. The best things is you reset it if you do not like the setup you start with. So this does wonders for build diversity.

Nice rant. I just wanted let you know that this may actually help our builds.

I have boldened what I feel is the problem with this approach.

Doesn't it worry you that specialization is something that gets punished in a RPG? Rarely have I played a RPG that punishes me (by making me less competitive) because I wanted to play a "pure" class, instead of a hybrid (e.g. magicka builds currently are a hybrid of mage/cleric).
In no other MMO (or even RPG) have I ever felt so forced to play in a certain way.

The main problem lies in the fact that you must rely on the damage shields/heals in order to be competitive in PvP (not as big of a problem in PvE), and they are making them even more prevalent by introducing these passives.
What if I don't want to play that way, being super defensive & able to tank a whole lot of damage?
What if I want to play a role, instead of all of them?

Now, of course I can avoid putting points into these passives that give me free damage shields, but how competitive do you think that is going to be, when the whole point of the game seems to be spamming dmg shields/heals as long as possible to stay alive (as explained on my "rant")?

The fact is that we will continue to see the prevalence of "dmg shield+heal gameplay" not only as strong, but even stronger than before, and even stamina builds are pushed towards this direction.

That is all fine, if you like playing as a "tank dps healer", but please consider there are other kinds of players as well, lots of them, who do not enjoy this kind of gameplay and having a free reset doesn't really help those players enjoy play the game the way they like.


As for the passive being stamina based and thus in The Shadow, I do believe I heard them mentioning other stamina-based things like lower blocking cost being in one of the Warrior constellations, which is why I find this odd.

Also, while rogue type characters usually have means of avoiding damage, those means are in most RPGs CCing your opponent (not the other way around) or utilizing stealth to your advantage.


Regardless, thanks for your feedback.

Yeah I understand though I never played pvp so I never really was force to play a certain way I always played the way I wanted and the more changes they have made. Have made my build even better. What I mean archetype I mean single champion area not necessarily the actually class. Like stacking only defense or stack only utility because that is how the champion is separated. It is seperated into warrior: health and defense, Mage: Attack and Magicka, and Thief: Utility and stamina.
Now I believe they are trying now to make it more balance so now a stealth class would work. You cannot really blame ZOS in what they are trying to do. More damage shields and armor because people complain they were too squishy. More weapon damage because people complain they were not get enough weapon damage or spell damage because of their class. Remember the bring stamina to where magicka is now threads. Now they are trying to make stamina viable by itself. They are only trying to please people but this also displeases people as well.

Yes, I can blame them, but not because of what they are trying to achieve, but rather how they are trying to achieve this.

They are basicly trying to make stamina builds equal to magicka builds, by making them perform in the exact same manner. This does not widen build diversity & playstyles in PvP, it makes it even more condensed into the "dmg shield+heal" that is literally everywhere already.

Also regarding the champion constellations: note that if you decided to stack only on "health and defense", that would make you fairly lousy dps, while making you a good tank. If you decided to stack on utility & stamina only, you'd be a bad tank in return.
I don't see why this is a bad thing, people should be allowed to play the way they want, instead of being forced to become a "tank dps healer", when only one of those appeal to you.

There are also other ways of making players survive longer, than giving them heals/dmg shields that don't fit their archetype.

I have some ways of achieving this for rogue archetype characters listed in my thread at Tamriel Foundry (http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/sneak-attack-short-synopsis-proposed-changes) & I'm sure something different could be made for mage/warrior archetypes also (although, is it such a bad thing if a DPS character has less survivability than a healer or a heavily armoured tank?)

Yeah but the problem is play as you want. So far ,all I see is people using what the best of the system to be successful and as long as this stays it will continue to be like that. No problem being squishy if you do want to be but if you cannot be successful with being like that then that is on the player. The reason they have damage shields is so that people who want to play a light armor tank that relies on damage shields can tank. Some people want to be this thus play as you want See if you make a system that allows that; than plenty of people are going to use what is successful. They have a way to increase evasiveness now.

Does this mean everybody going to do that. Not really but by having build diversity you will always have people who just want the cookie cutter build. Now if this system allow you to be successful with the "play as you want"system then that is a good. Since I have seen they have another method of revealing people in stealth, I hope they have a way to re-stealth in battle than that be nice.

All they have done with stamina is add more utility to it. The heal using stamaina is not really out place plus I prefer they did this so I do not have use a staff, which for me is more out of place than the ability. So far we get one heal spell for stamina is not like there is plenty of them and if player does not want to use the skill than do not have use it. We can only wait to see how this system turn out before we can make a decision on what direction it is going.

But it is not "play as you want". It is play as a "tank dps healer" or perish, and I'm past the point of arguing this (in fact, it is something inarguable: a fact).

By making builds with damage shields/heals have absolutely no downsides compared to ones without them, you create a system where people who want to stay competitive must slot them, simple as that. Separating spell damage & healing alone would do wonders for this aspect & make other builds viable. In compensation, magicka DPS could be increased (e.g. crystal shards could deal more damage than Snipe in compensation, while keeping the smaller range).

You could still play a tanky mage, but your shields/heals wouldn't be as strong as before & your damage wouldn't be as high as a pure mage. Or you could still absorb everything with your dmg shields or heal up everything (as long as you had magicka), but then you'd deal next to no damage.

Now, that would allow people to play the game as they want, instead of being pigeonholed into every role at the same time & forced to play in a certain way.

Regarding the stamina heal, you are right. I'm not 100% certain people will even use it, considering they'll need stamina to break every single CC made against them. Nonetheless, it's a step towards the wrong direction.

It makes no sense from lore perspective, it makes no sense from gameplay perspective and it makes absolutely no sense from RPG perspective.

In how many RPGs or MMOs have you played a rogue or warrior who healed other people, especially without even using "magic" (magicka)?
Something like using bandages I could accept, but not this.

DDuke

Added the following part to my original post:

To further make melee builds more appealing to people, I would add Dual Wield or/and Two-Handed an ability that deals increased damage on blocking targets & prevents them from blocking for X seconds if hit while they were blocking.

I believe this would provide a whole new interesting element to PvP, and would probably settle most of the block casting complaints.

And tagging some people so this gets seen:

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Darkonflare15

DDuke wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

@DDuke
The Shadow helps you evade and elude your enemies, stealth costs less stamina and CCs against you last less time.


I do not think it is in the wrong tree. As they stated we rotate around the three types of the constellations. So we will always have to put a point in the mage, warrior, and Thief trees. This means that each constellation is base off their respected resource.
Since Thief is base on stamina, the shadow which is one of the Thiefs charges is base on stamina like passives hence why CC is a passive in this tree. The tree represents evading and stamina which is why CC effecting you makes sense.
Now the reason they did so they can prevent people from stacking points in one area to fit their archetype. So they put useful things in all trees that would benefit all play styles.

For example, I play a stealth like character, I would put points in ritual for the increase in critical and points om Attronach for increase weapon damage. In the warrior tree: I would put points in the Lord to get the damage shield on potions because I am squishy and I could use the damage shield from a potion to protect me from damaging skill that could of killed when I am running away. Now last for thief tree: I would put points in shadow to evade moves and the tower to get some stamina reduction. These allow you to make a decent build for you tastes. The best things is you reset it if you do not like the setup you start with. So this does wonders for build diversity.

Nice rant. I just wanted let you know that this may actually help our builds.

I have boldened what I feel is the problem with this approach.

Doesn't it worry you that specialization is something that gets punished in a RPG? Rarely have I played a RPG that punishes me (by making me less competitive) because I wanted to play a "pure" class, instead of a hybrid (e.g. magicka builds currently are a hybrid of mage/cleric).
In no other MMO (or even RPG) have I ever felt so forced to play in a certain way.

The main problem lies in the fact that you must rely on the damage shields/heals in order to be competitive in PvP (not as big of a problem in PvE), and they are making them even more prevalent by introducing these passives.
What if I don't want to play that way, being super defensive & able to tank a whole lot of damage?
What if I want to play a role, instead of all of them?

Now, of course I can avoid putting points into these passives that give me free damage shields, but how competitive do you think that is going to be, when the whole point of the game seems to be spamming dmg shields/heals as long as possible to stay alive (as explained on my "rant")?

The fact is that we will continue to see the prevalence of "dmg shield+heal gameplay" not only as strong, but even stronger than before, and even stamina builds are pushed towards this direction.

That is all fine, if you like playing as a "tank dps healer", but please consider there are other kinds of players as well, lots of them, who do not enjoy this kind of gameplay and having a free reset doesn't really help those players enjoy play the game the way they like.


As for the passive being stamina based and thus in The Shadow, I do believe I heard them mentioning other stamina-based things like lower blocking cost being in one of the Warrior constellations, which is why I find this odd.

Also, while rogue type characters usually have means of avoiding damage, those means are in most RPGs CCing your opponent (not the other way around) or utilizing stealth to your advantage.


Regardless, thanks for your feedback.

Yeah I understand though I never played pvp so I never really was force to play a certain way I always played the way I wanted and the more changes they have made. Have made my build even better. What I mean archetype I mean single champion area not necessarily the actually class. Like stacking only defense or stack only utility because that is how the champion is separated. It is seperated into warrior: health and defense, Mage: Attack and Magicka, and Thief: Utility and stamina.
Now I believe they are trying now to make it more balance so now a stealth class would work. You cannot really blame ZOS in what they are trying to do. More damage shields and armor because people complain they were too squishy. More weapon damage because people complain they were not get enough weapon damage or spell damage because of their class. Remember the bring stamina to where magicka is now threads. Now they are trying to make stamina viable by itself. They are only trying to please people but this also displeases people as well.

Yes, I can blame them, but not because of what they are trying to achieve, but rather how they are trying to achieve this.

They are basicly trying to make stamina builds equal to magicka builds, by making them perform in the exact same manner. This does not widen build diversity & playstyles in PvP, it makes it even more condensed into the "dmg shield+heal" that is literally everywhere already.

Also regarding the champion constellations: note that if you decided to stack only on "health and defense", that would make you fairly lousy dps, while making you a good tank. If you decided to stack on utility & stamina only, you'd be a bad tank in return.
I don't see why this is a bad thing, people should be allowed to play the way they want, instead of being forced to become a "tank dps healer", when only one of those appeal to you.

There are also other ways of making players survive longer, than giving them heals/dmg shields that don't fit their archetype.

I have some ways of achieving this for rogue archetype characters listed in my thread at Tamriel Foundry (http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/sneak-attack-short-synopsis-proposed-changes) & I'm sure something different could be made for mage/warrior archetypes also (although, is it such a bad thing if a DPS character has less survivability than a healer or a heavily armoured tank?)

Yeah but the problem is play as you want. So far ,all I see is people using what the best of the system to be successful and as long as this stays it will continue to be like that. No problem being squishy if you do want to be but if you cannot be successful with being like that then that is on the player. The reason they have damage shields is so that people who want to play a light armor tank that relies on damage shields can tank. Some people want to be this thus play as you want See if you make a system that allows that; than plenty of people are going to use what is successful. They have a way to increase evasiveness now.

Does this mean everybody going to do that. Not really but by having build diversity you will always have people who just want the cookie cutter build. Now if this system allow you to be successful with the "play as you want"system then that is a good. Since I have seen they have another method of revealing people in stealth, I hope they have a way to re-stealth in battle than that be nice.

All they have done with stamina is add more utility to it. The heal using stamaina is not really out place plus I prefer they did this so I do not have use a staff, which for me is more out of place than the ability. So far we get one heal spell for stamina is not like there is plenty of them and if player does not want to use the skill than do not have use it. We can only wait to see how this system turn out before we can make a decision on what direction it is going.

But it is not "play as you want". It is play as a "tank dps healer" or perish, and I'm past the point of arguing this (in fact, it is something inarguable: a fact).

By making builds with damage shields/heals have absolutely no downsides compared to ones without them, you create a system where people who want to stay competitive must slot them, simple as that. Separating spell damage & healing alone would do wonders for this aspect & make other builds viable. In compensation, magicka DPS could be increased (e.g. crystal shards could deal more damage than Snipe in compensation, while keeping the smaller range).

You could still play a tanky mage, but your shields/heals wouldn't be as strong as before & your damage wouldn't be as high as a pure mage. Or you could still absorb everything with your dmg shields or heal up everything (as long as you had magicka), but then you'd deal next to no damage.

Now, that would allow people to play the game as they want, instead of being pigeonholed into every role at the same time & forced to play in a certain way.

Regarding the stamina heal, you are right. I'm not 100% certain people will even use it, considering they'll need stamina to break every single CC made against them. Nonetheless, it's a step towards the wrong direction.

It makes no sense from lore perspective, it makes no sense from gameplay perspective and it makes absolutely no sense from RPG perspective.

In how many RPGs or MMOs have you played a rogue or warrior who healed other people, especially without even using "magic" (magicka)?
Something like using bandages I could accept, but not this.

Well it seems that your mind keep focusing on what is now instead of focusing on the future.

dietlime

That number of words isn't appropriate for such a large amount of speculation with how little information we have about the actual changes in 1.6.

DDuke

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

Well it seems that your mind keep focusing on what is now instead of focusing on the future.

dietlime wrote: »

That number of words isn't appropriate for such a large amount of speculation with how little information we have about the actual changes in 1.6.

That is why I wrote the following:
"Please note that none of the changes are final & are probably subject to change, they are in fact not even in the PTS yet, so consider this "early feedback"."

Still, we have learned that there'll be even more damage shields/heals than before, and that stealth focused playstyle isn't getting anything in the Champion System. You can read the answer Eric Wrobel had for the question above.

These alone make me extremely worried about what is to come, and the sooner this feedback gets out the better chances it has of being seen & noticed.

I had plenty of good feedback for the stealth damage change which drove me to unsubscribe 3 months ago. Turned out they weren't listening (even though the patch was still on PTS) and they released it without any changes that could've made stealth gameplay interesting, fun & fair for everyone.

People ended up hating the new Snipe (which is weaker than the old one) & my feedback is still collecting dust somewhere on the official forums... (and in Tamriel Foundry: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/sneak-attack-short-synopsis-proposed-changes/)


That said, I might've used too many words (I get a bit carried away sometimes)
But when they talk only about adding more damage shields (and stamina heals) to the game, and nothing about other playstyles (classic rogue, warrior, mage among so many others currently unviable in PvP), this thread was bound to happen.


Let me know if you have any feedback regarding the changes I've proposed for other playstyles,
I'll make sure to make corrections & come up with ways to make things work, if there are loopholes that would make certain builds under/overpowered.

Tyr

The champion system is only going to be a small part of the overall pie for stats and buffs including damage shields.

If you put points into the damage shield stars in the champ system and someone else puts points in crit/pen/dps stars then they will negate any bonus damage shields contributed by CP.

In fact, if you want to stack damage shields you'll have to wear sets with damage shields and use abilities with major or minor damage shield buff(which will be expensive after the re-balance).

Just popping 1 ability and stacking CP in damage shield will get you crushed by a person who stacks burst dps abilities, gear, and CP.

In other words: if you want to do a 100% stealth burst DPS build, you'll crush anyone who just goes half into damage shield and half into majika sustain.

Black_Wolf88

what we have been told about the champion system is what id call only a teaser. the full details and everything that comes with it will only be known for sure once it hits hte pts server and people start testing.

to start speculating now with the little we do know ( yes little, even after last nights stream ) is just a waste of time.

Darkonflare15

dietlime wrote: »

That number of words isn't appropriate for such a large amount of speculation with how little information we have about the actual changes in 1.6.

Yeah I know. I stated one sentence just to see how he will react. I was getting a little bored with the long paragraphs.

@DDuke Yeah I hope they add a little more roleplay elements into to the game now that the buffs will nott stack as high anymore.

Tyr wrote: »

The champion system is only going to be a small part of the overall pie for stats and buffs including damage shields.

If you put points into the damage shield stars in the champ system and someone else puts points in crit/pen/dps stars then they will negate any bonus damage shields contributed by CP.

In fact, if you want to stack damage shields you'll have to wear sets with damage shields and use abilities with major or minor damage shield buff(which will be expensive after the re-balance).

Just popping 1 ability and stacking CP in damage shield will get you crushed by a person who stacks burst dps abilities, gear, and CP.

In other words: if you want to do a 100% stealth burst DPS build, you'll crush anyone who just goes half into damage shield and half into majika sustain.

I agree with this^

This maybe a good step in the right directions for ESO.

DDuke

Tyr wrote: »

The champion system is only going to be a small part of the overall pie for stats and buffs including damage shields.

If you put points into the damage shield stars in the champ system and someone else puts points in crit/pen/dps stars then they will negate any bonus damage shields contributed by CP.

In fact, if you want to stack damage shields you'll have to wear sets with damage shields and use abilities with major or minor damage shield buff(which will be expensive after the re-balance).

Just popping 1 ability and stacking CP in damage shield will get you crushed by a person who stacks burst dps abilities, gear, and CP.

In other words: if you want to do a 100% stealth burst DPS build, you'll crush anyone who just goes half into damage shield and half into majika sustain.

Problem is, as I explained in my original post, that you would have to increase your damage by approximately 80-120% (yes, the numbers are that high) in order to get through someone spamming damage shields in 1v1 fights.

Further explained by the math below:

A typical damage shield is around 1-1,5k in strength (assuming it is not stacked with another dmg shield)
Best spammable stamina skills average around 500-600 dmg
Best spammable magicka skills average around 450-550 dmg

You cannot crit on damage shields (not that you'd be critting anyhow in that impenetrable land called Cyrodiil), and even if you could it wouldn't be enough to bring someone down fast enough before they killed you (since you didn't have this "immunity" skill slotted to play "resource games" with them).

Heals follow the same pattern, except there are some counters around them (Lethal Arrow, Dark Flare, Disease Enchantment)

So, unless damage shield strength is halved or you can double your damage with the Champion System passives, this is going to be a problem.

I would not want them nerfed, I would only want people to have to decide their role between dealing huge damage and being able to spam shields/heals and survive that way, or being average on both.

In my opinion, this could be achieved by the split of spell dmg & healing, but I'm eager to hear feedback on that.

Nazon_Katts

They give access to all roles to everyone on a single character. Hence the game is *cough* balanced *cough* around a character being able to tank/heal/cc/dps at the same time, in the same fight. Not going for all roles and playing a hybrid (with dps focus) essentially has always put you at a disadvantage in ESO.

DDuke

Update: added a TLDR

dodgehopper_ESO

To be honest, its almost impossible to know what the ramifications of the champion system are at this point, because we still haven't tinkered with it on PTS. Everything in here is conjecture, and not worthy of flipping out. I think the only 'flip-out worthy' topics are the ones that involve direct changes to powers. If I had any complaint about the power changes they're doing, its that some people had uses for powers the old way. Haste and Blinding Flashes are both getting tossed, and yet both were nice tanking abilities. Haste was also good for stamina dps, because it helped fuel your stamina attacks. By removing haste they've significantly hamstrung the Nightblade's ability to produce the same level of sustained dps. I'd consider that significant. If you're going to complain, at least complaint about stuff you KNOW is changing.

DDuke

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

To be honest, its almost impossible to know what the ramifications of the champion system are at this point, because we still haven't tinkered with it on PTS. Everything in here is conjecture, and not worthy of flipping out. I think the only 'flip-out worthy' topics are the ones that involve direct changes to powers. If I had any complaint about the power changes they're doing, its that some people had uses for powers the old way. Haste and Blinding Flashes are both getting tossed, and yet both were nice tanking abilities. Haste was also good for stamina dps, because it helped fuel your stamina attacks. By removing haste they've significantly hamstrung the Nightblade's ability to produce the same level of sustained dps. I'd consider that significant. If you're going to complain, at least complaint about stuff you KNOW is changing.

Let me quote ESO Live:

Q: Could you go into a bit more detail about some of the constellations?

The Steed reduces your incoming damage with increased block damage and other defensive perks. The master skill gives you a damage shield while blocking. The Lady constellation protects you from Negative effects, you take less damage from Poison and Magic. The master passive there is “Unchained”, when you break free from crowd control all your Stamina costs are reduced for short amount of time. The Lord improves your vitality, Damage Shields you receive are stronger, Healing Potions are more effective, you increase the healing you take. “Infusion” gives players recovery and a damage shield when you resurrect someone, or are resurrected yourself. There are four unlocks in each constellations and four places to spend points in each constellation.

And again (this is a joke, right?):

Q: Is stealth going to be getting any love with this update? There are not a lot of reasons to use stealth in group PvE combat, I’d like to see more stealth strikes and things that can take advantage of stealth. Will this happen in 1.6?

There’s the new champion passive that gives you the faster stealth attacks. In general, in PvE, sneak attacks opening at the beginning of fights are really useful to use. In addition to that, in the PvE vs. PvP context, the bonus damage you deal in PvE is a lot higher. If we had that much bonus damage in PvP people would be falling over instantly. That part of it is definitely useful. Potentially people can still try to sneak past mobs in a dungeon if they are interested in doing that sort of thing. Also, heavy attack restores resources now, so being able to slip into stealth, do a heavy attack to get resources back can be really useful.

And something I found hilarious (ok, this has to be a joke...):

Q: What is your favorite thing to spend Champion Points on?

(Wrobel) My favorite thing is to get the damage shield you get when you drink a potion. Drinking potions is already really powerful, and now I can be protected while doing it.

There is plenty to be worried about after reading these statements, and nothing they have said has eased these worries, so I believe this thread is relevant (also to deliver feedback in time, before it's too late).

I wonder if any of these developers played a rogue, mage or warrior character in other MMOs? I think they all played paladins & priests in WoW or something, as they are so fond of bubbles & heals that they want everyone to spam them.

DDuke

Update:
made a poll: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/143759/would-you-like-dmg-shields-heals-to-become-more-or-less-prevalent-in-pvp

It would be good to know the popular consensus & communicate that to ZOS.

DDuke

Update:
made another poll asking players if they use dmg shields/heals in PvP, results indicate only 5% of players are playing without dmg shields/heals in PvP.
Link: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/144002/do-you-have-a-heal-or-a-dmg-shield-slotted-on-your-hotbar

danno8

I have limited PvP experience in this game, but I have noticed that if you do not hold block or have a damage shield up the TTK is extremely low. Much lower than any other PvP I have played.

I think, in general our health pools are too low for the amount of damage we can dole out, and that has lead to the requirement of holding block all the time, or using damage shields all the time. Otherwise you are dead in a few seconds.

It has an overly "spikey" feel to it that I don't care for as much as other mmos.

DDuke

danno816_ESO wrote: »

I have limited PvP experience in this game, but I have noticed that if you do not hold block or have a damage shield up the TTK is extremely low. Much lower than any other PvP I have played.

I think, in general our health pools are too low for the amount of damage we can dole out, and that has lead to the requirement of holding block all the time, or using damage shields all the time. Otherwise you are dead in a few seconds.

It has an overly "spikey" feel to it that I don't care for as much as other mmos.

I agree.

Maybe increasing player health (a lot more) in Cyrodiil could help with that?
I'll add that to my original post

Thanks for feedback.

Hypertionb14_ESO

try the following specification in your Topic name..

"in PvP"

all those comments about damage shields and such have absolutely no implications in PvE.

your topic is clearly aimed at this.

DDuke

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

try the following specification in your Topic name..

"in PvP"

all those comments about damage shields and such have absolutely no implications in PvE.

your topic is clearly aimed at this.

Good point, changed the title.