Bat Swarm should disable other attacks while active.

Soloeus

Bat Swarm + Impulse/Talons

One of the biggest improvement that can be made to Vampires is to stop the Bat Swarm + Dark Talons, Bat Swarm + Impulse, Bat Swarm + Streak, Streak, Streak...

To Fix: There are 2 easy fixes that don't "nerf" Bat Swarm.

1. When Bat Swarm is active, your other abilities grey out until Bat Swarm ends. This is easy but removes the choice, which brings me to 2.

2. When activated, Bat Swarm should have the same effect as Soul Assault. If you activate an ability while Bat Swarm is active, the Bat Swarm ends. This means a player mid Bat Swarm has a choice to finish it, or start spamming Dark Talons and Impulse.

This will keep Bat Swarm powerful but deny stacking it with other abilities which is one of the biggest reasons the Zergball technique works so well.

NorthernFury

Good post. Agreed

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs

Yeah agree, although i like doing it

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Soloeus wrote: »

Bat Swarm + Impulse/Talons

One of the biggest improvement that can be made to Vampires is to stop the Bat Swarm + Dark Talons, Bat Swarm + Impulse, Bat Swarm + Streak, Streak, Streak...

To Fix: There are 2 easy fixes that don't "nerf" Bat Swarm.

1. When Bat Swarm is active, your other abilities grey out until Bat Swarm ends. This is easy but removes the choice, which brings me to 2.

2. When activated, Bat Swarm should have the same effect as Soul Assault. If you activate an ability while Bat Swarm is active, the Bat Swarm ends. This means a player mid Bat Swarm has a choice to finish it, or start spamming Dark Talons and Impulse.

This will keep Bat Swarm powerful but deny stacking it with other abilities which is one of the biggest reasons the Zergball technique works so well.

It's real strong, but so is Negate Magic.

Nox_Aeterna

Lets trade the word improvement to nerf AND lets just say : "There are 2 easy nerfs to Bat Swarm."

I dont see why not use the right words , not like you are actually fooling anyone anyway.

Still i dont have anything against this change , as long as they also make the fire vun at top 25% with it or remove the issue with the fighters guild tree. You want to nerf vampires , fine by me , hell make them equal to the other player , BUT also take away all of the problems that come with it.

Fireborn

It would have to be done to all ultimates. Like when you put a banner down or when you negate magic or use overload or what ever it is that NB's do.....

But seeing as I have a vamp DK I do not agree with this idea.

Here's the best way to deal with bat swarm. Run away from it until it ends! Then set the vampire on fire.

Nova Sky

Yet another proposed PvP nerf that could inadvertently affect PvE players in a negative manner.

timidobserver

IMO, they should just go ahead and nerf batswarm so we can move on. We all know it is coming. I'd rather just have it sooner than later so I can readjust my build.

PBpsy

Or better yet make it so that it doesn't hurt stationary targets at all. That way players that don't know to gtfo of AOE's will stop complaining,

ExiledKhallisi

No. Stupid.

If they do this no one will play vampire. 50% MORE damage from all fire sources is a huge con to being a vamp.

If they did this, they might as well do it for every single ultimate in the game to be balanced. I cant believe people complain about vampires. I 2-3 shot them in Cyrodil.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

PBpsy wrote: »

Or better yet make it so that it doesn't hurt stationary targets at all. That way players that don't know to gtfo of AOE's will stop complaining,

^^^

SienneYviete

Honestly do all you whingers really not know how to avoid an aoe?

Soloeus

1. There are a few Ultimate Abilities (like Soul Assault, or the Templar healing) that require Channeling. What I am suggesting still allows the Vamp to run around like crazy. What it doesn't permit is Zergballing.

2. Negate Magic already has an AoE cap of 6 targets so if a Zergball has 12 people in it, you only hit 1/2 of them at random; you might not even actually negate the targets you wanted to if given an option. Same AoE cap applies to Meteor.

With Bat Swarm the real abuse is that being free to use your other abilities with it. That takes a very powerful ability and puts it over the top as cheese.

3. The AoE cap of Bat Swarm matters very little when 3-4 people in a group of 12 are doing it, and wearing maximized Fire Resistance so even if you do attack the Zergball with Silver Shards or a Fire Spell there is no guarantee you will actually hit a Vampire.

4. If you do, it won't matter because most Zergballs use Combat Prayer, or some other form of Healing.

Combined with the Bat Swarm life drain, and other Life Drain or Healing being spammed by the vamp overheals beyond any amount of damage that can hit the Zergball. Others in the zergball also have Combat Prayer and other forms of Healing along with usually 2-3 Vamps.

Interesting to note that most of the "opposition" has no argument, they just assume you don't know how to dodge AoE. Then they use this to make an Ad Hominem attack.

Vunter

timidobserver wrote: »

IMO, they should just go ahead and nerf batswarm so we can move on. We all know it is coming. I'd rather just have it sooner than later so I can readjust my build.

"All" intensifies

xChewtoyx

Nova Sky wrote: »

Yet another proposed PvP nerf that could inadvertently affect PvE players in a negative manner.

This.

Why should your inability to deal with this in PVP affect my PVE?

ravenhartb14_ESO

Yes. Let's take the ultimate out of an ultimate ability and make it no better than a normal ability.

Bat swarm already has a huge cost compared to other ultimates and does mediocre damage for cost output. The fact that it is AOE improves the value. I find for the cost, Bat Swarm is very balanced.

Not to mention that you can see the bat swarm effect a mile away.
Protip: to avoid damage from highly visible Area Of Effect skills, remove yourself from the Area Of Effect.

Soloeus

ravenhartb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes. Let's take the ultimate out of an ultimate ability and make it no better than a normal ability.

Bat swarm already has a huge cost compared to other ultimates and does mediocre damage for cost output. The fact that it is AOE improves the value. I find for the cost, Bat Swarm is very balanced.

Not to mention that you can see the bat swarm effect a mile away.
Protip: to avoid damage from highly visible Area Of Effect skills, remove yourself from the Area Of Effect.

1. It is nondirectional, it life leeches, it does NOT do mediocre damage for cost output and in big group situations you can often regenerate your Ultimate within seconds of casting it from using Talons/Impulse and other abilities with it.

2. When you are in a group situation, all you can see is 3 Bat Swarms from a group spamming 20 Impusles, Dark Talons, and every other thing you can think of.

3. Bat Swarm would still be an awesome ability with this fix applied. What it would not be, is Nacho Cheese Combo. The Problem is less how good the ability is, and more about being able to use your other abilities with it active. Fixing this, and making it work like other Ultimates would improve PVP altogether.

Trolltip: If possible, accuse the person you are attacking of being inferior and offer them advice. This makes it look like the issue is just the player being a bad player and makes you look really really awesome. Like, so smart. Like. Totally call it a Protip so that you just look seven inches bigger.

Nox_Aeterna

Soloeus wrote: »

ravenhartb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes. Let's take the ultimate out of an ultimate ability and make it no better than a normal ability.

Bat swarm already has a huge cost compared to other ultimates and does mediocre damage for cost output. The fact that it is AOE improves the value. I find for the cost, Bat Swarm is very balanced.

Not to mention that you can see the bat swarm effect a mile away.
Protip: to avoid damage from highly visible Area Of Effect skills, remove yourself from the Area Of Effect.

1. It is nondirectional, it life leeches, it does NOT do mediocre damage for cost output and in big group situations you can often regenerate your Ultimate within seconds of casting it from using Talons/Impulse and other abilities with it.

2. When you are in a group situation, all you can see is 3 Bat Swarms from a group spamming 20 Impusles, Dark Talons, and every other thing you can think of.

3. Bat Swarm would still be an awesome ability with this fix applied. What it would not be, is Nacho Cheese Combo. The Problem is less how good the ability is, and more about being able to use your other abilities with it active. Fixing this, and making it work like other Ultimates would improve PVP altogether.

"Fixing" (or like i said using the actual right word nerfing) would just like i said make one skill players pay dearly for to become worse than the other already current ultimates.

If you want to make vampires get crappy skills , then like i said take away from the problems of being a vampire also.

I agree with the other post , the only way this would actually be fair without messing with anything else on the vampires would be applying this to every single ult skill in this game.

Soloeus

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

ravenhartb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes. Let's take the ultimate out of an ultimate ability and make it no better than a normal ability.

Bat swarm already has a huge cost compared to other ultimates and does mediocre damage for cost output. The fact that it is AOE improves the value. I find for the cost, Bat Swarm is very balanced.

Not to mention that you can see the bat swarm effect a mile away.
Protip: to avoid damage from highly visible Area Of Effect skills, remove yourself from the Area Of Effect.

1. It is nondirectional, it life leeches, it does NOT do mediocre damage for cost output and in big group situations you can often regenerate your Ultimate within seconds of casting it from using Talons/Impulse and other abilities with it.

2. When you are in a group situation, all you can see is 3 Bat Swarms from a group spamming 20 Impusles, Dark Talons, and every other thing you can think of.

3. Bat Swarm would still be an awesome ability with this fix applied. What it would not be, is Nacho Cheese Combo. The Problem is less how good the ability is, and more about being able to use your other abilities with it active. Fixing this, and making it work like other Ultimates would improve PVP altogether.

"Fixing" (or like i said using the actual right word nerfing) would just like i said make one skill players pay dearly for to become worse than the other already current ultimates.

If you want to make vampires get crappy skills , then like i said take away from the problems of being a vampire also.

I agree with the other post , the only way this would actually be fair without messing with anything else on the vampires would be applying this to every single ult skill in this game.

1. Wrong. Applying this to every Ultimate in the game is nonsense because not every Ultimate in the game lets you use the ability itself + other abilities at the same time, with a gigantic AoE. There are also a lot of single target ultimates, and ultimates that deal no damage at all, so your argument is refuted as nonsensical.

2. Many Ultimate abilities such as the Templar Healing ultimate and Soul Assault already work that way. Dragonknight Standard only hits 6 players, doesn't heal the caster and "remains in place." Meteor follows the target but only hits 6 random players.

3. Another fix for Bat Swarm is to just make it like Dragonknight Standard, where it is in place. The Templar Healing ultimate makes you stand still while using it, after all. But Soul Assault lets you walk around; but if you drop Dark Talons while using it, the channeling of Soul Assault ends.

3. Another fix, is to greatly reduce the size of the AoE to 7m, which would be reasonable considering you would still be able to use your other abilities while using it, and walk around.

None of this is a Nerf because Nerfing is just making an ability weaker, while Fixing changes a mechanic instead of just weakening a skill. The Nerf would be to reduce the size to 5m. The Fix is to make it so the ability stops if you activate a Skill while Bat Swarm is in use.

Pro Tip: Nerfing is often done to avoid Fixing, by the way.

SienneYviete

Soloeus wrote: »

1. There are a few Ultimate Abilities (like Soul Assault, or the Templar healing) that require Channeling. What I am suggesting still allows the Vamp to run around like crazy. What it doesn't permit is Zergballing.

2. Negate Magic already has an AoE cap of 6 targets so if a Zergball has 12 people in it, you only hit 1/2 of them at random; you might not even actually negate the targets you wanted to if given an option. Same AoE cap applies to Meteor.

With Bat Swarm the real abuse is that being free to use your other abilities with it. That takes a very powerful ability and puts it over the top as cheese.

3. The AoE cap of Bat Swarm matters very little when 3-4 people in a group of 12 are doing it, and wearing maximized Fire Resistance so even if you do attack the Zergball with Silver Shards or a Fire Spell there is no guarantee you will actually hit a Vampire.

4. If you do, it won't matter because most Zergballs use Combat Prayer, or some other form of Healing.

Combined with the Bat Swarm life drain, and other Life Drain or Healing being spammed by the vamp overheals beyond any amount of damage that can hit the Zergball. Others in the zergball also have Combat Prayer and other forms of Healing along with usually 2-3 Vamps.

Interesting to note that most of the "opposition" has no argument, they just assume you don't know how to dodge AoE. Then they use this to make an Ad Hominem attack.

Dodging the aoe is our argument.

Nox_Aeterna

Soloeus wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

ravenhartb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes. Let's take the ultimate out of an ultimate ability and make it no better than a normal ability.

Bat swarm already has a huge cost compared to other ultimates and does mediocre damage for cost output. The fact that it is AOE improves the value. I find for the cost, Bat Swarm is very balanced.

Not to mention that you can see the bat swarm effect a mile away.
Protip: to avoid damage from highly visible Area Of Effect skills, remove yourself from the Area Of Effect.

1. It is nondirectional, it life leeches, it does NOT do mediocre damage for cost output and in big group situations you can often regenerate your Ultimate within seconds of casting it from using Talons/Impulse and other abilities with it.

2. When you are in a group situation, all you can see is 3 Bat Swarms from a group spamming 20 Impusles, Dark Talons, and every other thing you can think of.

3. Bat Swarm would still be an awesome ability with this fix applied. What it would not be, is Nacho Cheese Combo. The Problem is less how good the ability is, and more about being able to use your other abilities with it active. Fixing this, and making it work like other Ultimates would improve PVP altogether.

"Fixing" (or like i said using the actual right word nerfing) would just like i said make one skill players pay dearly for to become worse than the other already current ultimates.

If you want to make vampires get crappy skills , then like i said take away from the problems of being a vampire also.

I agree with the other post , the only way this would actually be fair without messing with anything else on the vampires would be applying this to every single ult skill in this game.

1. Wrong. Applying this to every Ultimate in the game is nonsense because not every Ultimate in the game lets you use the ability itself + other abilities at the same time, with a gigantic AoE. There are also a lot of single target ultimates, and ultimates that deal no damage at all, so your argument is refuted as nonsensical.

2. Many Ultimate abilities such as the Templar Healing ultimate and Soul Assault already work that way. Dragonknight Standard only hits 6 players, doesn't heal the caster and "remains in place." Meteor follows the target but only hits 6 random players.

3. Another fix for Bat Swarm is to just make it like Dragonknight Standard, where it is in place. The Templar Healing ultimate makes you stand still while using it, after all. But Soul Assault lets you walk around; but if you drop Dark Talons while using it, the channeling of Soul Assault ends.

3. Another fix, is to greatly reduce the size of the AoE to 7m, which would be reasonable considering you would still be able to use your other abilities while using it, and walk around.

None of this is a Nerf because Nerfing makes an ability weaker, while Fixing changes a mechanic instead of the skill itself. The Nerf would be to reduce the size to 5m. The Fix is to make it so the ability stops if you activate a Skill while Bat Swarm is in use.

There is no point in trying to say that the DK standard should be equal in power to the vampire ult , like i said , DKs pay nothing for their skill , that is not the case at all for the vampires.

Should the vampire ult be just better than the DK one? Yes , it should.

There is nothing broken in this skill to begin with , therefore there is nothing to fix. The skill works 100% as intended. You dont like how it work , but that doesnt make it broken.

That is no different than saying that the DK standard is broken because it doesnt follow the DK around , clearly to fix it , we must have it do just that :P.

ExiledKhallisi

*Looks at standard and Solar Flare that do 3x the damage batswarm does*

Emperor

I don't see why people complain about bat swarm. Any time I see it, I just move away from it just like any other ultimate or just block it. It's never really been a problem for me

Soloeus

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

*Looks at standard and Solar Flare that do 3x the damage batswarm does*

1. Looks at Standard which doesn't restore life, and stays in place. People can just leave the AoE.

2. Looks at a Flare that hits other targets for less damage than the primary target, doesn't restore life and hits once and done.

Then Compares...

Gigantic AoE that moves around, healing its user. Abused greatly by other mechanics than itself. Allows other abilities to be used while Channeling it.

Apples and Oranges.

Makkir

I got a better negative side effect... "User is surrounded by Guano and is snared for 50% movement speed while bat swarm is active."

Makkir

Soloeus wrote: »

Interesting to note that most of the "opposition" has no argument, they just assume you don't know how to dodge AoE. Then they use this to make an Ad Hominem attack.

Why do some abilities have an AoE cap right now while others like Bat Swarm do not? Curious, if we go with your option #2 what about other ultimates with a "summoned" effect (Like storm Atronach)? Would you want that cancelled as well?

I have not had any serious encounters with bat swarmers. Most of the time I just roll out of the way...
If you play or have played WoW then I am sure you are familiar with the Tunnel Vision Pugs you get in Random Battleground games (Basically they run to middle of map and start slashing at each other). I noticed same thing over in this game as well. Most unorganized Pug raids lacking voice comm and structure tend to just run around in a zerg without any kind of strategy. I think that's the group that's more likely to "stand in fire."

MurkMuffin

I agree with the OP. I don't think that anything should be done except that it should be treated like every other channeled effect...you can't do anything but move and cast the spell! Other than that, Bat swarm is fine. I feel like that's all that Soloeus is trying to say as well.

Sidenote: I dodge aoe's.

timidobserver

Vunter wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

IMO, they should just go ahead and nerf batswarm so we can move on. We all know it is coming. I'd rather just have it sooner than later so I can readjust my build.

"All" intensifies

I suppose that I shouldn't have used all. Thanks great grammarian. Most rational people accept that Bat Swarm will likely have an adjustment in the near future, regardless of whether they agree with it or not. Though, there are definitely some that aren't quite rational.

ravenhartb14_ESO

Soloeus wrote: »

[
1. Wrong. Applying this to every Ultimate in the game is nonsense because not every Ultimate in the game lets you use the ability itself + other abilities at the same time, with a gigantic AoE.

First, because another person does not share your opinion doesn't make it wrong.

Second, AOE is already target limited.

Third, this:

Fireborn wrote: »

Here's the best way to deal with bat swarm. Run away from it until it ends! Then set the vampire on fire.

Fourth, this:

xChewtoyx wrote: »

Why should your inability to deal with this in PVP affect my PVE?

Just because you personally find it difficult to use a single tactic against this ability and refuse to adapt your playstyle to overcome and mitigate the difficulty you encounter does not mean that 1) other people have not been able to adapt and use tactics to combat the ability; and 2) this ability should be nerfed because you're angry and too lazy to find a way to combat this.

The solution to your problem has already been presented. If you're unwilling to accept the solution; that's your deal. Next you'll want ranged attacks taken out of the game because they're unfair to melee classes.

jrgray93

Everyone commenting that the damage isn't that great is missing the point. Bat swarm makes you nigh invincible with the right spells combined with it. All the while, it can't simply be moved out of because players within it can move at full speed. Honestly, I'd be okay with them just dropping the radius for starters. 10 meters is insane. 6-7 would be better. Beyond that, I don't know what else to do with it. Baby steps.

timidobserver

I've had a lot of luck killing vamp clouding swarm bombers with blazing spear. I basically just spam it on their general location when they are swarming over a large group and my scrolling combat text confirms for me that they get stunned. Shortly after that they usually die.