The over use of magic and its lore implications.

zdkazz

Ok i am going to say this right away, this is a tad bit of a rage thread, I love this game, I will play it till the end of days and will defend it with my honor as a gamer. That being said I would like to discuss the overuse of magic in the elder scrolls online.

so we have all(most of us ) played an elder scrolls game, they are amazing, a mixture of medieval warfare and sorcery, but the use of magic is the be all end all of eso, im not talking about mana vs stamina builds Im talking about the actual use of magica. In eso everyone knows how to use magica and cast spells, everyone and I guess this is fine as you dont want to limit some players to having magica and not allow others to. That being said it ruins the world and the mystery of magic, in previous elder scrolls games mages are feared because they are few and there ways and powers are not know to the general world.

mages were few and powerful, they were the ones who stood out above the rest because they were able to harness the power of Atherius and use it like a tool. Mages were feared in skyrim, guards would comment, people refused to work with you and people like Falion in skyrim are accused of necromancy the spreading of diseases and other foul things even though they had nothing to do with it. Novels like the "the black arts on trials"(http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial) show the prosecution of mages by the hands of there own and others due to fear of what one group might do to another, fear of magic. But here in eso, all the players( and most of the population of tamriel) know magic, can cast with no training, and can instantly teliport themselves across the continent at a simple wave of there hands, how ridiculous would it have been if every man woman and child in skyrim had been a dragonborn? the entire population of Skyrim hates and fears mages, because there ways and powers are unkown.

and its not just the players, the stories revolve around magic, it is the explanation for everything in eso. On top of that even creatures and average grunts and bandits cast spells. A FREAKING NIX HOUND KNOWS MASTER LVL MYSTICISM AND CAN TELEPORT STRIKE YOU, and they have brains the size of acorns.(acording to a resercherr in morrowind idk his name ill look for the link) every creature can do magic, every single one, what happened to the average bandit or grunt that just held a sword and tried his damnedest to bash your brains in with it?

This changes the entire world that has been crafted since 1994, a dark gritty realistic medieval world, where magic was a thing that was only acquired by those who worked or had a natural talent. What this does to the world of tamriel is makes it light hearted, less gritty, and steals some of the best that elder scrolls has to offer, when not only 9/10ths of the worlds people can cast magica but also 9/10ths of the worlds beasts apparently have arcane knowledge it removes the mystery and allure that magica had.

In my opinion the over use of magic in eso is simply the worst part of the game, it downplays everything, there is no knights there is no archers, there is no warriors, there are only mages who decide they want to swing a sword or shoot a bow, everyone is a special cookie, and it is ruining the beautiful word Bethesda has crafted over the last 20 years.

that is what I think, how about you?

timidobserver

It's not a big enough deal to me that I even remotely care about it, but I do agree that magic may be a bit overused.

zdkazz

timidobserver wrote: »

It's not a big enough deal to me that I even remotely care about it, but I do agree that magic may be a bit overused.

as i said I love the game and will keep playing it just urks me that everything even a nix hound knows arcane knowledge. It removes all allure and mystery that magic held in other elder scrolls games.

Anvos

I think you missed something along the way. This isn't a world like dragon age where magic requires a rare genetic gift.

As for Skyrim other than the redguards they are pretty much the most anti magic people on Nirn since they have a warrior culture, so using them as the norm on the view on magic isn't adequate.

As for prevalence of magic I've always understood that it doesn't take much effort for the races of mer to at least master the basics of magic.

Also lets face it other than pseudo magic such as the Akaviri Kai and Thuum pure warriors are ineffective.

zdkazz

Anvos wrote: »

I think you missed something along the way.

As for Skyrim other than the redguards they are pretty much the most anti magic people on Nirn since they have a warrior culture, so using them as the norm on the view on magic isn't adequate.

As for prevalence of magic I've always understood that it doesn't take much effort for the races of mer to at least master the basics of magic.

Also lets face it other than pseudo magic such as the Akaviri Kai and Thuum pure warriors are ineffective.

in daggerfall the average person in the illiac bay area wouldnt even talk to you if you were a high lvl mage i(even though thats the land of the bretons and they have more natural mages than most) it was also in oblivion and morrowind, it is a theme from previous es games.

that being said I disagree, the entirety of the legion under talos's command were simple plaited soldiers and archers, and only a handful of mages(20 or so i believe, lead by Zurin Arcturus) and they were able to conquer the known world, pelinal whitstrake took his knights and one mage and conquered most of elsewyr and valenwood.

but for a second lets say your right, and every other elder scrolls game is just incorrect in its execution, an average joe still should not be able to do the complex and demanding tasks of teliporting oneself around the world of nirn with magic, something that took great telvani lords over 300 years of research to learn, are you telling me that 9/10ths of the population at this year are more magically powerfull and adept than an individual who has spent the last 300 years of his life studying and trying to figure out?

DogFaceInBananaPatch

I don't like the overuse (overkill) of ghosts in nearly every other quest. Seriously, if someone dies in Nirn it's inevitable they'll become a ghost? At first it was just frequently then I seemed apparent the writers decided to make use of the dead coming back to life as ghosts only to progress the story as I moved on from quest hub to quest hub. Now it's simply implausible, ridiculous, and the norm.

zdkazz

DogFaceInBananaPatch wrote: »

I don't like the overuse (overkill) of ghosts in nearly every other quest. Seriously, if someone dies in Nirn it's inevitable they'll become a ghost? At first it was just frequently then I seemed apparent the writers decided to make use of the dead coming back to life as ghosts only to progress the story as I moved on from quest hub to quest hub. Now it's simply implausible, ridiculous, and the norm.

yes, it is another over use in this game, does anyone remeberr the ghost of the sailor in oblivion the one who was tied to a pillar during a mutany and died when the ship sunk? all he wanted was for you to free his old bones from there shacles, and he would feel as though he could rest, the reason this was so memorable is because it was one of the few ghosts in the game, and one of an even smaller selection that were non hostile, how many ghosts have you all seen in eso, how many do you remeber? the over use kills the allure.

DogFaceInBananaPatch

zdkazz wrote: »

the over use kills the allure.

This, right here, for me. ~nods~

Did they [the writes] really have no other way to present content? heh

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

There's two problems with this from a functional standpoint. One everyone is THE hero of their story, so they would have access to high magic just like any TES hero.

Two, TES has always been ridiculously high magic. At least from Morrowind on. I can't speak for Arena and Daggerfall and the side games, which I know you played.

zdkazz

DogFaceInBananaPatch wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

the over use kills the allure.

This, right here, for me. ~nods~

Did they [the writes] really have no other to present content? heh

i dont know, they kinda went the mmo norm way and exsplained everything with magic.

Anvos

Teleporting isn't a hard art if your destination is nearby or you have a focus site as your destination such as a temple or wayshrine.

Using daggerfall isn't really the most reliable source considering its age and I don't remember anything that hostile towards usage of magic in Morrowind or Oblivion and I played through them as spell swords.

Pelinal was a demigod so using him as an example is bad and Talos only won over the Dominion because he abused Numidian.

Also I'm fairly sure its been stated in the past that most professional armies try and include at least 1 spell sword or battle mage in every squad.

zdkazz

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

There's two problems with this from a functional standpoint. One everyone is THE hero of their story, so they would have access to high magic just like any TES hero.

Two, TES has always been ridiculously high magic. At least from Morrowind on. I can't speak for Arena and Daggerfall and the side games, which I know you played.

I disagree with this aswell, mages have always been regarded with suspicion from daggerfall and up.

zdkazz

Anvos wrote: »

Teleporting isn't a hard art if your destination is nearby or you have a focus site as your destination such as a temple or wayshrine.

Using daggerfall isn't really the most reliable source considering its age and I don't remember anything that hostile towards usage of magic in Morrowind or Oblivion and I played through them as spell swords.

Pelinal was a demigod so using him as an example is bad and Talos only won over the Dominion because he abused Numidian.

Also I'm fairly sure its been stated in the past that most professional armies try and include at least 1 spell sword or battle mage in every squad.

in morrowind there is alot of magic that the player can use, but the enemies however were not all amgic based, average dunmer did not cast spells, a warror was a warrior, a mage was a mage and there were a few warrior mages, thats it .

on top of that a telivani three hunderd years from now will spend his entire life trying to learn and teach the mark and recall spells for teleporting, something which apperently an average joe in eso's time knew and mastered.

grimjim398

Jedi are supposed to be rare but in Star Wars games and movies they're a dime a dozen. You're right about the lore but the game has to be something people are willing to pay to play. It's not a Tamriel world simulator, it's a role playing game. If the developers are going to make room for people to have fun playing, they're going to have to crack the lore in lots of places.

thelordoffelines

In morrowind and up any person could cast a simple destruction spell and there was no suspicion about being amage in those games. In oblivion u could be a warrior the entire game then switch to magic like it was no big deal. Its the same in this game casting a few spells isnt an impressive act. However things like portals are and in eso only npcs who are supposedly powerful mages can make portals to anywhere. But again there was no suapiciam of mages in oblivion or morrowind just an affinity to necromancy which is the same in eso.

Draeath

DogFaceInBananaPatch wrote: »

I don't like the overuse (overkill) of ghosts in nearly every other quest. Seriously, if someone dies in Nirn it's inevitable they'll become a ghost? At first it was just frequently then I seemed apparent the writers decided to make use of the dead coming back to life as ghosts only to progress the story as I moved on from quest hub to quest hub. Now it's simply implausible, ridiculous, and the norm.

You seem to have forgotten that the Veil was recently broken by Mannimarco /w the Soulburst, right?

DogFaceInBananaPatch

Thanks @Draeath I actually do appreciate the reminder... still way too many ghosts as quest givers, or progression of quests.

Draeath

Fair enough! I've reached level 10 only recently so... for all I know it might get much worse than I've seen thus far. Plus, personal preferences and all that.

Just pointing out that the concept of abused souls is central to the whole plot of the game, so it's not so far out of bounds to expect it's use fairly often :P

Cyberdown

DogFaceInBananaPatch wrote: »

Thanks @Draeath I actually do appreciate the reminder... still way too many ghosts as quest givers, or progression of quests.

I prefer that to farmers who are unable to kill the boars eating his crops, then need you to collect some produce, then go deliver produce to the next hub for him.

id much rather assist a ghost, who might not have the ability to do things, vs some lazy ass farmer.

magic has always been common in TES games. This isn't some kind of star wars jedi thing where its suppose to be super rare and exclusive but they have everyone and their mother with light sabers.

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

Nobody cared if you were a Mage in Daggerfall. They wouldn't speak with you if you were a high ranking member of the Mages Guild. You had to be an actual member of the organization for people to be wary of you.

Moonscythe

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

There's two problems with this from a functional standpoint. One everyone is THE hero of their story, so they would have access to high magic just like any TES hero.

Two, TES has always been ridiculously high magic. At least from Morrowind on. I can't speak for Arena and Daggerfall and the side games, which I know you played.

While it's true magic is prominent in TES and I don't know how it works for the PC master race and their mods I do know that plain vanilla Skyrim on an Xbox required a special effort to take magic through to the end game and beyond. Everyone on the Xbox forum complained about how magic didn't cut it at the end and I took that as a challenge and killed my legendary dragon with fireballs down his throat but it wasn't an easy trip. The point is that most people played Skyrim with a blade and a shield not magic.

In Oblivion, magic was godlike and slinging fireballs was a kick but in Morrowind, I used magic for protection but I killed Dagoth Ur with as big a sword as I could swing. I used more magic in Tribunal but that final battle is fought with a blade (though enchanted). In short, I think magic is more balanced with melee and ranged in TES than it is in ESO. As for me, I'm always a mage if that is a possibility. I don't even play games with guns.

UPrime

Anvos wrote: »

I think you missed something along the way. This isn't a world like dragon age where magic requires a rare genetic gift.

As for Skyrim other than the redguards they are pretty much the most anti magic people on Nirn since they have a warrior culture, so using them as the norm on the view on magic isn't adequate.

As for prevalence of magic I've always understood that it doesn't take much effort for the races of mer to at least master the basics of magic.

Also lets face it other than pseudo magic such as the Akaviri Kai and Thuum pure warriors are ineffective.

I'd have to agree this this. Plus I think what makes the Player char powerful is that you posses skills and magic above the average. Every powerful historical figure had some sort of magic on their side.

GnatB

I have to agree with the OP, pretty much. Magic in ESO feels far more prevalent than in previous ES games. But I'll admit that could have largely been because of the way *I* played them. My typical ES characters were mostly weapons based. Magic was pretty much used only for buffs and heals. (which, I'll admit, is also how I'm trying to play most of my ESO characters. And since I don't give a squat about trials (or really most VR content) it seems to be going just fine.)

That said, it does feel like there are *way* too many magic using enemies around. Heck, I don't know if item drops are actually itemized based on enemy type, but I'd say staffs are *the* most common equipment drop. (Which could be why my woodworker is at 24 skill, while clothier is 20, and blacksmith is 19)

zdkazz

GnatB wrote: »

I have to agree with the OP, pretty much. Magic in ESO feels far more prevalent than in previous ES games. But I'll admit that could have largely been because of the way *I* played them. My typical ES characters were mostly weapons based. Magic was pretty much used only for buffs and heals. (which, I'll admit, is also how I'm trying to play most of my ESO characters. And since I don't give a squat about trials (or really most VR content) it seems to be going just fine.)

That said, it does feel like there are *way* too many magic using enemies around. Heck, I don't know if item drops are actually itemized based on enemy type, but I'd say staffs are *the* most common equipment drop. (Which could be why my woodworker is at 24 skill, while clothier is 20, and blacksmith is 19)

agree the ammount of npcs usin magic is way larger than all the other games. idk about drop rates of staves, it seems to be pretty random to me.

nicholaspingasb16_ESO

zdkazz wrote: »

Ok i am going to say this right away, this is a tad bit of a rage thread, I love this game, I will play it till the end of days and will defend it with my honor as a gamer. That being said I would like to discuss the overuse of magic in the elder scrolls online.

so we have all(most of us ) played an elder scrolls game, they are amazing, a mixture of medieval warfare and sorcery, but the use of magic is the be all end all of eso, im not talking about mana vs stamina builds Im talking about the actual use of magica. In eso everyone knows how to use magica and cast spells, everyone and I guess this is fine as you dont want to limit some players to having magica and not allow others to. That being said it ruins the world and the mystery of magic, in previous elder scrolls games mages are feared because they are few and there ways and powers are not know to the general world.

mages were few and powerful, they were the ones who stood out above the rest because they were able to harness the power of Atherius and use it like a tool. Mages were feared in skyrim, guards would comment, people refused to work with you and people like Falion in skyrim are accused of necromancy the spreading of diseases and other foul things even though they had nothing to do with it. Novels like the "the black arts on trials"(http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial) show the prosecution of mages by the hands of there own and others due to fear of what one group might do to another, fear of magic. But here in eso, all the players( and most of the population of tamriel) know magic, can cast with no training, and can instantly teliport themselves across the continent at a simple wave of there hands, how ridiculous would it have been if every man woman and child in skyrim had been a dragonborn? the entire population of Skyrim hates and fears mages, because there ways and powers are unkown.

and its not just the players, the stories revolve around magic, it is the explanation for everything in eso. On top of that even creatures and average grunts and bandits cast spells. A FREAKING NIX HOUND KNOWS MASTER LVL MYSTICISM AND CAN TELEPORT STRIKE YOU, and they have brains the size of acorns.(acording to a resercherr in morrowind idk his name ill look for the link) every creature can do magic, every single one, what happened to the average bandit or grunt that just held a sword and tried his damnedest to bash your brains in with it?

This changes the entire world that has been crafted since 1994, a dark gritty realistic medieval world, where magic was a thing that was only acquired by those who worked or had a natural talent. What this does to the world of tamriel is makes it light hearted, less gritty, and steals some of the best that elder scrolls has to offer, when not only 9/10ths of the worlds people can cast magica but also 9/10ths of the worlds beasts apparently have arcane knowledge it removes the mystery and allure that magica had.

In my opinion the over use of magic in eso is simply the worst part of the game, it downplays everything, there is no knights there is no archers, there is no warriors, there are only mages who decide they want to swing a sword or shoot a bow, everyone is a special cookie, and it is ruining the beautiful word Bethesda has crafted over the last 20 years.

that is what I think, how about you?

^

Rune_Relic

I think the whole problem with the basic design of ESO is they wanted to have the cookie and eat it.

In my view
fighters / assassin / mage specialised in unique damage.
Fighters - physical damage (non magic)
Assassin -crit / stealth
Mage magical damage (non weapon)
with assassin being able to delve into magic or weapons but to a less degree.

What Zos decide was change that OR into an AND
Now you can be fighter/assassin/mage all at the same time and be powerful with all of them.

THAT...was the fatal flaw in the whole design. health/stamina/magicak should have separated your ability with this type of damage. Instead everyone just does 0-49-0 chucks on the buffs and hey presto....master of everything.

zdkazz

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I think the whole problem with the basic design of ESO is they wanted to have the cookie and eat it.

In my view
fighters / assassin / mage specialised in unique damage.
Fighters - physical damage (non magic)
Assassin -crit / stealth
Mage magical damage (non weapon)
with assassin being able to delve into magic or weapons but to a less degree.

What Zos decide was change that OR into an AND
Now you can be fighter/assassin/mage all at the same time and be powerful with all of them.

THAT...was the fatal flaw in the whole design. health/stamina/magicak should have separated your ability with this type of damage. Instead everyone just does 0-49-0 chucks on the buffs and hey presto....master of everything.

yeah unfortunately this and the announcement of the senche tiger mount has caused me to unsub, its sad, but the game is no longer for me(its not a bad game its just not for me) Im back to playing mortal online and loving the gritty realism and true live action combat.

Wyietsayon

Anyone noticed that, even though there's a 1000 year difference between ESO and Skyrim, technology has stayed the same? I'm not wanting a sci-fi elder scrolls game or anything, but without that advancement in tech, it doesn't feel like the world has advanced at all.

Herbalism/non-magic medicine hasn't grown in the games from what we can see. Still using the same type of crossbows in both extreme times. I think horse-drawn buggies actually got worse. In Eso they're actual buggies, but in skyrim, just carts.

As for portals, yeah, soulburst is a good explanation. But ESO aside, portal technology went from somewhat plentiful in Morrowind, to one or two times in oblivion, then none in Skyrim. Sure, Skyrim too place both in a time and place where magic was taboo, but still it feels odd. Almost like we're losing more magic than we are learning.

But I think there is advancement in magical theory in the games. Mostly by the division of schools of magic. In eso, there hasn't been specific magical schools yet, just vague terms like dark magic and lightning. But the schools get defined and refined as the games go along. So yay pointless organizing advancement?

ALso dwarven tech: In eso we've learned to deconstruct and make dwarven spiders follow us around and do tricks. Yet in Skyrim we're still trying to understand them, for some reason.

So in summary, be glad they at least have the soulburst to explain some of this. Cause there's plenty of lore unexplained.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Full agree here. What's also kinda weird to me was the extreme inconsistency that follows from having widespread magic like that. Apparently, there is an abundance of cheaply available magic of all kinds that could potentially revolutionize practically any aspect of living but it somehow doesn't affect the decidedly medieval setting at all because pretty much nobody gives a ***. There are no power struggles, there is no ruling class being wary of powers out of their reach, no prosecution of magical talents and so on. I'm not saying I want a story about those things, but I'm a bit put off as to why there's no explanation why they do not naturally occur.

jelliedsoup

They've over done magicka in this game. There are no warriors, thieves rangers etc.

People who played previous ESO games as non magicka based builds are disappointed.

R1ckyDaMan

*slow clap*

I 100% agree with everything you said OP.

Although my concern also spreads to the skill bar and my lack of understanding why a skill bar is needed.