Diminishing returns overlap for spamming AOE (a mechanic to spare PvE)

tinythinker

Maybe I missed this being suggested somewhere else, but what if repeated uses of cheap spells with AOE damage had diminishing returns based on overlap with other players?

This would spare solo users, slightly affect PvE groups doing dungeon runs and trials, yet would cut the legs off of the worst of PvP zerg spamming.

My idea is that once a player casts a quick-burst AOE like Impulse, if another player within X meters casts the same AOE within 5 seconds, it is reduced by 10% across the board -- damage, DOT, debuff, etc. This is cumulative. If the first player or a third were to cast it within 5 seconds of the second player, another 10% down, to some minimum. Let's say 10% effectiveness for our example.

Here is what things currently look like without the mechanic:

Single Player: *cast* *cast* *cast* *cast* -- a few mobs or a player or two are dead or severely weakened in a few seconds.

Two or Three Players: *cast*cast*cas*ca*ca*ca*ca*cas*cast* -- several mobs or players (a few less than before) are dead or severely weakened in a few seconds.

Ten or Twnety Players: *cast*cast*cas*ca*ca*ca*ca*c*c*c************************************************
*********************************************************c*c*c*ca*ca*ca*ca*cas*cast*cast* -- two or three dozen mobs or players are dead in a couple of seconds.

Here is what I think it would like with the mechanic I propose:

Single Player: *cast* *cast* *cast* *cast* -- a few mobs or a player or two are dead or severely weakened in a few seconds. No change.

Two or Three Players: *cast*cast*cas*ca*ca*ca*ca*cas*cast* -- several mobs or players (a few less than before) are dead or severely weakened in a few seconds. Slight change.

Ten or Twnety Players: *cast*cast*cas*ca*ca*ca*ca*c*c*c*********************************************
*********************************************************c*c*c*ca*ca*ca*ca*cas*cast*cast* -- several mobs or players are dead or severely weakened in a few seconds. Major change.

Details

These numbers can be debated, but let's go with this:

If player faction-x uses spell with AOE damage, then other player faction-x using same AOE within 40 meters of previous caster and within 5 seconds of last casting triggers 10% reduction in AOE. This stacks. Additional cast by players of faction-x reduce effect 10% each time if within 40 meters/5 seconds of last cast, to a minimum effectiveness of 10%. After 5 second cooldown with no additional casts, value for AOE returns to 100%.

In other language, if Bill spams something like Impulse 10 times, it works as it always has. If Bill casts Impulse and Ted is within 40 meters of Bill any time in the next five seconds and he also casts Impulse, the spell is only 90% effective for Ted. If Bill casts it again within 40 meters of Ted and within 5 seconds of Ted's casting, Bill only gets 80% effectiveness. And so on. Until they either move apart, or space out their abilities with something other than the same rapid-fire AOE.

But notice that Bill and Ted could be near each other spamming Impulse and still get a lot of utility before the diminishing returns started seriously limiting their efforts.

If we move to a spam-train for something like Impulse or whatever is the group AOE flavor of the month, however, the effect of the diminishing returns and associated cool-down becomes really apparent. They would hit rock bottom almost right away.

If Impulse is going to be altered because of its use in PvP, I vote for this (kind of) solution, as it leaves solo players alone and does very little to small groups running dungeons. It primarily affects the intended target.

Of course, this could be modified by the numbers. Maybe the radius from the last player to use the spell should be bigger or smaller. Maybe the rate of diminishing returns is too high or to low. Or maybe the rate of return should also be in increments from the last use for every second the spell isn't fired off again rather than having a 5 second local cool down with 100% restored after that time is up.

That's all debatable, but what do you think of the general mechanic?

Edited repeatedly for typos.

Turelus

TL;DR Identical AoE spells don't stack or get diminishing returns?

dcincali

Easier fix: Roll out of it.

tinythinker

dcincali wrote: »

Easier fix: Roll out of it.

My post is premised on a potential decision -- if ZOS decided to "nerf" something like Impulse, or AOE spells in general, then I would rather see a type of correction that doesn't impinge upon solo and small groups, especially those doing PvE.

The issue at hand isn't about roll-dodges in one-vs-one, but about large spam zergs. My own "easier fix" is to recognize them from a distance (their grouping is movement pattern tends to be a dead give away) and either employ a counter-zerg strategy from afar or just get out of path of the oncoming onslaught before it reaches your position.

tinythinker

Turelus wrote: »

TL;DR Identical AoE spells don't stack or get diminishing returns?

Some spells may stack for damage but I am unaware of any of them getting diminishing returns for (near-) simultaneous multiple casting by different people in close proximity. If such a diminishing returns mechanic does exist for such abilities the devs could just crank it up.

Tintinabula

yea spend your time rolling out of a 10 man zerg spamming impulse..tell me how that works for ya.

Columba

Like this idea.

SBR_QuorTek

Just create a cap on how many of the different AOE types can be used in a group... like.. max 4 pulse (any morph) per group, insert secondary aoe type max count 4... it would put a stop to actual abuse and create diversity instead in groups.

Script reads 4 people in group has this or that aoe on their toolbar(s) even if 10 use the same, only 4 of them would be working by eg. the 4 first who get away with pressing the button, result is only 4 is doing any damage while the remaining 6 does none at all.

Would create a desireability to even invite dw nightblades into the group and also create more diversity in classes and 'builds' for groups.

Lava_Croft

Probably, the real solution is looking at each specific AoE ability and change the caps on a per-ability basis, if needed.

tinythinker

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Probably, the real solution is looking at each specific AoE ability and change the caps on a per-ability basis, if needed.

But that frequently limits solo and small group play. I really dislike letting PvP dictate everything else.

SBR_QuorTek

tinythinker wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Probably, the real solution is looking at each specific AoE ability and change the caps on a per-ability basis, if needed.

But that frequently limits solo and small group play. I really dislike letting PvP dictate everything else.

Am more into keeping what we got but having a different ruleset of how skills would interact in PvP contested zones or just vs players in general in the PvP enviroment.

There is no reason to that some class or skill should be totally nerfed into the ground rendering eg. classes/skills useless in even basic PvE.

Being a fan of both PvP and PvE I see it all both ways.

tinythinker

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Probably, the real solution is looking at each specific AoE ability and change the caps on a per-ability basis, if needed.

But that frequently limits solo and small group play. I really dislike letting PvP dictate everything else.

Am more into keeping what we got but having a different ruleset of how skills would interact in PvP contested zones or just vs players in general in the PvP enviroment.

There is no reason to that some class or skill should be totally nerfed into the ground rendering eg. classes/skills useless in even basic PvE.

Being a fan of both PvP and PvE I see it all both ways.

My scheme could be universal or it could be limited to PvP zones, but either way it wouldn't put a hard nerf AOE just to balance PvP concerns. I alluded to existing tactics to help nullify spam zergs, and others have given detailed approaches, but if ZOS is going to alter the mechanic, make it scalable and in so doing save PvE use and eliminate the need to keep changing the caps.