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Making NB DPS more Risk/Reward through Positioning

Avran_Sylt
Avran_Sylt
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These are my own ideas, and I hope to hear criticism about them and/or your own ideas for the Nightblade as well.

Pulling from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374513/new-nightblade-skill-replacing-agony-change-to-backstab/p1:
Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
To be honest, I think that agony (Malefic Offering) should be left alone. It adds in a healing that is so different from the standard norm, I think its a good thing, for now, as it gives NB healing a uniqueness.

What I honestly think (and this is just quick speculation), is that the Master Assassin passive should be tweaked a bit. And at least a few skill should be shifted around.

To begin with:

Master Assassin now increases your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by [x]% against targets facing away from you (+ the sneak stun bonus).

I would then take Veiled Attack, and swap it's position with Blur, then Swap Veiled Attack and Assassin's Blade in the skill unlock list.
Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
@Shadzilla

Of course.

My next suggestion would be to then do this:

Teleport Strike:
Part of the base skill and carrying over to the morphs:
Casting this from stealth or cloak teleports you behind your target, or the nearest valid terrain.

Now you have a way to re-position yourself behind an enemy, it comes with a little setup so that you aren't always behind your enemy (requiring you to at least spend magicka on cloak while in combat), as well as giving you a way to gap close into your passive ability. (Having the camera rotate for the player automatically might be a good thing here). (This is also kinda a nerf as a PvP guy could expect a newb using Teleport strike all the time with cloak to always show up behind them).

Mark Target, Implications for NB in PvP
Now that Surprise Attack is in the Assassination Tree, it might be beneficial to change the functionality of the stamina morph of Surprise Attack so this is the skill they need to apply an armor debuff rather than sNB spamming SA all the time.

At this point, SA (and veiled strike) has been gutted absolutely ruthlessly. It now no longer debuffs the enemy with Major Fracture for sNB, but for both mNB and sNB you no longer gain Major Resistance buffs from spamming this attack.

So, at this point, how can Veiled Strike be buffed (or other aspects of the NB skills) in order to compensate for this tremendous amount of nerf in regards to self-buffs and target debuffs?

My thoughts on this are as follows:

Change Master Assassin (in the Assassination Skill Tree), to increase WD and SD against targets facing away from you (by the current amount that is applied to the sneaking bonus)

Move Veiled Strike (SA) into the Assassination Tree, replacing Blur (into Shadow) and swapping Assassin's Blade(Killer's Blade) with Veiled Strike(SA)

Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

Veiled Strike (base functionality) will no longer stun from stealth or cloak, but will instead ignore blocking mitigation if cast from behind an enemy.

Surprise Attack (VS) will no longer debuff with Major Fracture, but instead will have different functionality. It will now grant the Stun bonus that was removed in the base skill.

Now NB is much more position dependent, and can take down permablocking tanks if they're silly enough to expose their back to the NB. However this comes at the cost of not getting Major Resistance Buffs from spamming Surprise attack, as well as relegating Major Fracture to Mark Target.


I'd love to hear constructive criticism about this, as well as your own ideas. (Constructive criticism does not mean "applauding" the idea. but rather offering feedback with reasoning behind it. It could be negative criticism but with solid reasoning behind it. Remaining Civil is always a plus.)
Edited by Avran_Sylt on 5 octobre 2017 5:05
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    So the NB gets 1) always behind his opponent, 2) enjoys a WD/SD buff because of it, 3) gets a stun on a damage spammable and 4) ignores block.

    No way.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing solo PvP mostly on EU PC Sotha Sil.
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @Feanor

    1) Only if they use some form of cloaking prior or cast from stealth (there is counterplay to this). Easily countered by any AoE or stealth mitigating effect and overall requires the NB to use a lot more resources.
    2)Position dependent, yes, the exact bonus should be looked at
    3)The stun is situational (from cloak, or stealth), and is the exact way it works now, but relegated to a morph.
    4) Only ignores block if the opponent is facing away from them. Not as a whole.
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on 5 octobre 2017 4:31
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    @Feanor

    1) Only if they use some form of cloaking prior or cast from stealth (there is counterplay to this). Easily countered by any AoE or stealth mitigating effect and overall requires the NB to use a lot more resources.
    2)Position dependent, yes, the exact bonus should be looked at
    3)The stun is situational (from cloak, or stealth), and is the exact way it works now, but relegated to a morph.
    4) Only ignores block if the opponent is facing away from them. Not as a whole.

    people don't like counters to their high survivabilty pvp builds so won't happen
    Edited by Aliyavana on 5 octobre 2017 4:44
    Zebendal- Stam Sorc, PC NA
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @aliyavana

    I mean, the counter to this counter would be damage shields.
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Not an awful idea.

    100% block mitigation ignoring would cripple tanks and make shield tanks even stronger comparatively. They already don't take status effects.

    However it'd have to replace some other things for the whole risk aspect of it, and so PvE Deeps isn't affected too much. Extra positioning damage >> Extra sneak damage. And no to the TP strike aspect, gotta work for the buff.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @ak_pvp

    Fair enough, the TP change was just to add extra flair. It could be that the Master Assassin passive just grants bonus % Resistance Penetration when attacking from behind a target, such that it works wonders solo and against tanks in PvP, but keeps it about the same in PvE.

    Block mitigation would still be on the chopping block. at this point its just an idea.
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on 5 octobre 2017 4:57
  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    I rather like this idea. Not stamblade goes squish anyways so it's not like you can complain much for giving them a little more fun
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Alliance Warlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA
    ESOFam Community Discord: https://discord.gg/gMntMb8
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    https://youtube.com/channel/UC0WuLVnsW177WKkKcvNuuYA
  • supaskrub
    supaskrub
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    Why virtually rebuild a whole class to counter block?.. Why not just have block to working front facing only (sort of conal), shields will give protection in 360 degrees (as they should) but block (imo) should only work in the position you are facing which as i understand it is not what it works like now.
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @supaskrub

    At the moment it was just a general idea. whether or not Blocking should be directional is something that should be considered and perhaps viewed as a result of this idea.
  • SanTii.92
    SanTii.92
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    Constructive criticism: sounds great, and i'd love the idea, but nbs are strong enough as they are.
    When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
    the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.

    Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @SanTii.92

    Hmm, constructive criticism doesn't always mean applauding an idea. Where do you find that NB's are over-performing?
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Blocking directional would make shields even stronger. If we have a whole overhaul like shields still take dots/groundbased damage, sure.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @ak_pvp

    Yeah, I actually started thinking about that. If damage shields blocked from all directions, but always took full damage, and Blocking was directional, with increased damage reduction, it would have two very distinct playstyles when it comes to tanking.

    That would be a basic concept and would require several iterations of course.
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    These are my own ideas, and I hope to hear criticism about them and/or your own ideas for the Nightblade as well.

    Pulling from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374513/new-nightblade-skill-replacing-agony-change-to-backstab/p1:
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    To be honest, I think that agony (Malefic Offering) should be left alone. It adds in a healing that is so different from the standard norm, I think its a good thing, for now, as it gives NB healing a uniqueness.

    What I honestly think (and this is just quick speculation), is that the Master Assassin passive should be tweaked a bit. And at least a few skill should be shifted around.

    To begin with:

    Master Assassin now increases your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by [x]% against targets facing away from you (+ the sneak stun bonus).

    I would then take Veiled Attack, and swap it's position with Blur, then Swap Veiled Attack and Assassin's Blade in the skill unlock list.
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    @Shadzilla

    Of course.

    My next suggestion would be to then do this:

    Teleport Strike:
    Part of the base skill and carrying over to the morphs:
    Casting this from stealth or cloak teleports you behind your target, or the nearest valid terrain.

    Now you have a way to re-position yourself behind an enemy, it comes with a little setup so that you aren't always behind your enemy (requiring you to at least spend magicka on cloak while in combat), as well as giving you a way to gap close into your passive ability. (Having the camera rotate for the player automatically might be a good thing here). (This is also kinda a nerf as a PvP guy could expect a newb using Teleport strike all the time with cloak to always show up behind them).

    Mark Target, Implications for NB in PvP
    Now that Surprise Attack is in the Assassination Tree, it might be beneficial to change the functionality of the stamina morph of Surprise Attack so this is the skill they need to apply an armor debuff rather than sNB spamming SA all the time.

    At this point, SA (and veiled strike) has been gutted absolutely ruthlessly. It now no longer debuffs the enemy with Major Fracture for sNB, but for both mNB and sNB you no longer gain Major Resistance buffs from spamming this attack.

    So, at this point, how can Veiled Strike be buffed (or other aspects of the NB skills) in order to compensate for this tremendous amount of nerf in regards to self-buffs and target debuffs?

    My thoughts on this are as follows:

    Change Master Assassin (in the Assassination Skill Tree), to increase WD and SD against targets facing away from you (by the current amount that is applied to the sneaking bonus)

    Move Veiled Strike (SA) into the Assassination Tree, replacing Blur (into Shadow) and swapping Assassin's Blade(Killer's Blade) with Veiled Strike(SA)

    Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

    Veiled Strike (base functionality) will no longer stun from stealth or cloak, but will instead ignore blocking mitigation if cast from behind an enemy.

    Surprise Attack (VS) will no longer debuff with Major Fracture, but instead will have different functionality. It will now grant the Stun bonus that was removed in the base skill.

    Now NB is much more position dependent, and can take down permablocking tanks if they're silly enough to expose their back to the NB. However this comes at the cost of not getting Major Resistance Buffs from spamming Surprise attack, as well as relegating Major Fracture to Mark Target.


    I'd love to hear constructive criticism about this, as well as your own ideas.

    1. Master Assasin change would be very strong buff to PvE because You're almost always damaging bosses faced back to You also it would be too easy to stand behind someone when You Xv1 him.
    2. So You want class that ignores block (fear) and block mitigation ?
    3. So You want mechanic that will ignore blocking and skill that will brainlesly grant You that(teleport strike) ?
    4. Supprise Attack stun is stupid because You wont be able to time Your burst with stun because You already stunned someone with Your spammable ability and he/she have CC immunity. Also You loose lot of dmg and build diversity by taking away Major Fracture debuff from it.
    5. Loosing Major resists debuffs would be that problem for Nb's.


    Nb already have tools to fight with perma blockers which is fear and timing his burst with incap during time target is feared. I am not fun of HA blocking builds but making so many changes and remaking class only to be able to fight easier againt that builds is stupid. You have to remember that HA builds wont be able to use shuffle so if You immobilize them You can easily dmg them on their backs or You force them to roll dodge or run with less survival morph of forward momentum.
  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
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    This would be a huge buff to ranged mageblades and give them 0 nerfs to go with it.
    PC NA
    @lexxypwns
    Xbox NA
    GT: Champion Points
    GT: Crown Crates

    Mageblade main
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @Juhasow
    1) that has been discussed, and the idea has shifted a bit to adding % Resistance Penetration when attacking from behind
    2)Block mitigation sure (but I think that that itself should be a base gameplay mechanic)
    3)TP was flair that was added (for a more fast paced combat feeling) and could toptally be redacted.
    4)Surprise attack would be functioning the exact same way that it currently does, but being relegated to SA
    5) Yep, more risk/reward.
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @Lexxypwns

    I honestly only play stamNB, but aint mNB a little sub-par currently?
  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
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    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    @Lexxypwns

    I honestly only play stamNB, but aint mNB a little sub-par currently?

    Imo, mageblade is at or near the top of the PVP food chain in most situations. Tied with SnB stamden for best duel spec, best group damage spec, and have a huge impact on a small group that most specs cannot begin to match. I can't speak to PVE, though.
    Edited by Lexxypwns on 5 octobre 2017 5:50
    PC NA
    @lexxypwns
    Xbox NA
    GT: Champion Points
    GT: Crown Crates

    Mageblade main
  • Kilandros
    Kilandros
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    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    These are my own ideas, and I hope to hear criticism about them and/or your own ideas for the Nightblade as well.

    Pulling from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374513/new-nightblade-skill-replacing-agony-change-to-backstab/p1:
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    To be honest, I think that agony (Malefic Offering) should be left alone. It adds in a healing that is so different from the standard norm, I think its a good thing, for now, as it gives NB healing a uniqueness.

    What I honestly think (and this is just quick speculation), is that the Master Assassin passive should be tweaked a bit. And at least a few skill should be shifted around.

    To begin with:

    Master Assassin now increases your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by [x]% against targets facing away from you (+ the sneak stun bonus).

    I would then take Veiled Attack, and swap it's position with Blur, then Swap Veiled Attack and Assassin's Blade in the skill unlock list.
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    @Shadzilla

    Of course.

    My next suggestion would be to then do this:

    Teleport Strike:
    Part of the base skill and carrying over to the morphs:
    Casting this from stealth or cloak teleports you behind your target, or the nearest valid terrain.

    Now you have a way to re-position yourself behind an enemy, it comes with a little setup so that you aren't always behind your enemy (requiring you to at least spend magicka on cloak while in combat), as well as giving you a way to gap close into your passive ability. (Having the camera rotate for the player automatically might be a good thing here). (This is also kinda a nerf as a PvP guy could expect a newb using Teleport strike all the time with cloak to always show up behind them).

    Mark Target, Implications for NB in PvP
    Now that Surprise Attack is in the Assassination Tree, it might be beneficial to change the functionality of the stamina morph of Surprise Attack so this is the skill they need to apply an armor debuff rather than sNB spamming SA all the time.

    At this point, SA (and veiled strike) has been gutted absolutely ruthlessly. It now no longer debuffs the enemy with Major Fracture for sNB, but for both mNB and sNB you no longer gain Major Resistance buffs from spamming this attack.

    So, at this point, how can Veiled Strike be buffed (or other aspects of the NB skills) in order to compensate for this tremendous amount of nerf in regards to self-buffs and target debuffs?

    My thoughts on this are as follows:

    Change Master Assassin (in the Assassination Skill Tree), to increase WD and SD against targets facing away from you (by the current amount that is applied to the sneaking bonus)

    Move Veiled Strike (SA) into the Assassination Tree, replacing Blur (into Shadow) and swapping Assassin's Blade(Killer's Blade) with Veiled Strike(SA)

    Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

    Veiled Strike (base functionality) will no longer stun from stealth or cloak, but will instead ignore blocking mitigation if cast from behind an enemy.

    Surprise Attack (VS) will no longer debuff with Major Fracture, but instead will have different functionality. It will now grant the Stun bonus that was removed in the base skill.

    Now NB is much more position dependent, and can take down permablocking tanks if they're silly enough to expose their back to the NB. However this comes at the cost of not getting Major Resistance Buffs from spamming Surprise attack, as well as relegating Major Fracture to Mark Target.


    I'd love to hear constructive criticism about this, as well as your own ideas. (Constructive criticism does not mean "applauding" the idea. but rather offering feedback with reasoning behind it. It could be negative criticism but with solid reasoning behind it. Remaining Civil is always a plus.)

    Those are a lot of buffs/changes for a class that is already very potent and getting buffed this patch. I do think that Surprise Attack and Blur should swap lines for cohesion and so that SA can take advantage of the buffed Executioner passive.

    As far as mNB goes, my biggest complaint is that the Assassin's Will proc is very very clunky. They're improving that, so we're going to need to see how that plays out. But in general I think both Magicka and Stamina NB are in very good spots right now.

    The last thing you want is for NB to get overbuffed because when it inevitably gets nerfed to compensate ZOS will go overboard with both direct and indirect nerfs. Trust me on this, I've played a DK since beta.
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
    Sias - Sorcerer / Prefect
    ZOS_GinaBruno a écrit: »
    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • Juhasow
    Juhasow
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    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    @Juhasow
    1) that has been discussed, and the idea has shifted a bit to adding % Resistance Penetration when attacking from behind
    2)Block mitigation sure (but I think that that itself should be a base gameplay mechanic)
    3)TP was flair that was added (for a more fast paced combat feeling) and could toptally be redacted.
    4)Surprise attack would be functioning the exact same way that it currently does, but being relegated to SA
    5) Yep, more risk/reward.

    Simply no. Nb is good as it is and there is no pioint to change that because someone feels bad because of blocking targets in the game. There should be couinters for everyone not for limited builds which currently are not bad.
  • Kalante
    Kalante
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    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    These are my own ideas, and I hope to hear criticism about them and/or your own ideas for the Nightblade as well.

    Pulling from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374513/new-nightblade-skill-replacing-agony-change-to-backstab/p1:
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    To be honest, I think that agony (Malefic Offering) should be left alone. It adds in a healing that is so different from the standard norm, I think its a good thing, for now, as it gives NB healing a uniqueness.

    What I honestly think (and this is just quick speculation), is that the Master Assassin passive should be tweaked a bit. And at least a few skill should be shifted around.

    To begin with:

    Master Assassin now increases your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by [x]% against targets facing away from you (+ the sneak stun bonus).

    I would then take Veiled Attack, and swap it's position with Blur, then Swap Veiled Attack and Assassin's Blade in the skill unlock list.
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    @Shadzilla

    Of course.

    My next suggestion would be to then do this:

    Teleport Strike:
    Part of the base skill and carrying over to the morphs:
    Casting this from stealth or cloak teleports you behind your target, or the nearest valid terrain.

    Now you have a way to re-position yourself behind an enemy, it comes with a little setup so that you aren't always behind your enemy (requiring you to at least spend magicka on cloak while in combat), as well as giving you a way to gap close into your passive ability. (Having the camera rotate for the player automatically might be a good thing here). (This is also kinda a nerf as a PvP guy could expect a newb using Teleport strike all the time with cloak to always show up behind them).

    Mark Target, Implications for NB in PvP
    Now that Surprise Attack is in the Assassination Tree, it might be beneficial to change the functionality of the stamina morph of Surprise Attack so this is the skill they need to apply an armor debuff rather than sNB spamming SA all the time.

    At this point, SA (and veiled strike) has been gutted absolutely ruthlessly. It now no longer debuffs the enemy with Major Fracture for sNB, but for both mNB and sNB you no longer gain Major Resistance buffs from spamming this attack.

    So, at this point, how can Veiled Strike be buffed (or other aspects of the NB skills) in order to compensate for this tremendous amount of nerf in regards to self-buffs and target debuffs?

    My thoughts on this are as follows:

    Change Master Assassin (in the Assassination Skill Tree), to increase WD and SD against targets facing away from you (by the current amount that is applied to the sneaking bonus)

    Move Veiled Strike (SA) into the Assassination Tree, replacing Blur (into Shadow) and swapping Assassin's Blade(Killer's Blade) with Veiled Strike(SA)

    Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

    Veiled Strike (base functionality) will no longer stun from stealth or cloak, but will instead ignore blocking mitigation if cast from behind an enemy.

    Surprise Attack (VS) will no longer debuff with Major Fracture, but instead will have different functionality. It will now grant the Stun bonus that was removed in the base skill.

    Now NB is much more position dependent, and can take down permablocking tanks if they're silly enough to expose their back to the NB. However this comes at the cost of not getting Major Resistance Buffs from spamming Surprise attack, as well as relegating Major Fracture to Mark Target.


    I'd love to hear constructive criticism about this, as well as your own ideas. (Constructive criticism does not mean "applauding" the idea. but rather offering feedback with reasoning behind it. It could be negative criticism but with solid reasoning behind it. Remaining Civil is always a plus.)

    I am glad you are not in charge of the combat.
    MWsRAGE_5
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    @Kalante

    Cool. Fantastic feedback. I can get sooo much insight from this. Why are you glad I am not in charge of the combat? Or, is this a frivolous thought you deigned to show to my obviously inferior intellect?
  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
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    Kilandros a écrit: »
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    These are my own ideas, and I hope to hear criticism about them and/or your own ideas for the Nightblade as well.

    Pulling from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374513/new-nightblade-skill-replacing-agony-change-to-backstab/p1:
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    To be honest, I think that agony (Malefic Offering) should be left alone. It adds in a healing that is so different from the standard norm, I think its a good thing, for now, as it gives NB healing a uniqueness.

    What I honestly think (and this is just quick speculation), is that the Master Assassin passive should be tweaked a bit. And at least a few skill should be shifted around.

    To begin with:

    Master Assassin now increases your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by [x]% against targets facing away from you (+ the sneak stun bonus).

    I would then take Veiled Attack, and swap it's position with Blur, then Swap Veiled Attack and Assassin's Blade in the skill unlock list.
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    @Shadzilla

    Of course.

    My next suggestion would be to then do this:

    Teleport Strike:
    Part of the base skill and carrying over to the morphs:
    Casting this from stealth or cloak teleports you behind your target, or the nearest valid terrain.

    Now you have a way to re-position yourself behind an enemy, it comes with a little setup so that you aren't always behind your enemy (requiring you to at least spend magicka on cloak while in combat), as well as giving you a way to gap close into your passive ability. (Having the camera rotate for the player automatically might be a good thing here). (This is also kinda a nerf as a PvP guy could expect a newb using Teleport strike all the time with cloak to always show up behind them).

    Mark Target, Implications for NB in PvP
    Now that Surprise Attack is in the Assassination Tree, it might be beneficial to change the functionality of the stamina morph of Surprise Attack so this is the skill they need to apply an armor debuff rather than sNB spamming SA all the time.

    At this point, SA (and veiled strike) has been gutted absolutely ruthlessly. It now no longer debuffs the enemy with Major Fracture for sNB, but for both mNB and sNB you no longer gain Major Resistance buffs from spamming this attack.

    So, at this point, how can Veiled Strike be buffed (or other aspects of the NB skills) in order to compensate for this tremendous amount of nerf in regards to self-buffs and target debuffs?

    My thoughts on this are as follows:

    Change Master Assassin (in the Assassination Skill Tree), to increase WD and SD against targets facing away from you (by the current amount that is applied to the sneaking bonus)

    Move Veiled Strike (SA) into the Assassination Tree, replacing Blur (into Shadow) and swapping Assassin's Blade(Killer's Blade) with Veiled Strike(SA)

    Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

    Veiled Strike (base functionality) will no longer stun from stealth or cloak, but will instead ignore blocking mitigation if cast from behind an enemy.

    Surprise Attack (VS) will no longer debuff with Major Fracture, but instead will have different functionality. It will now grant the Stun bonus that was removed in the base skill.

    Now NB is much more position dependent, and can take down permablocking tanks if they're silly enough to expose their back to the NB. However this comes at the cost of not getting Major Resistance Buffs from spamming Surprise attack, as well as relegating Major Fracture to Mark Target.


    I'd love to hear constructive criticism about this, as well as your own ideas. (Constructive criticism does not mean "applauding" the idea. but rather offering feedback with reasoning behind it. It could be negative criticism but with solid reasoning behind it. Remaining Civil is always a plus.)

    Those are a lot of buffs/changes for a class that is already very potent and getting buffed this patch. I do think that Surprise Attack and Blur should swap lines for cohesion and so that SA can take advantage of the buffed Executioner passive.

    As far as mNB goes, my biggest complaint is that the Assassin's Will proc is very very clunky. They're improving that, so we're going to need to see how that plays out. But in general I think both Magicka and Stamina NB are in very good spots right now.

    The last thing you want is for NB to get overbuffed because when it inevitably gets nerfed to compensate ZOS will go overboard with both direct and indirect nerfs. Trust me on this, I've played a DK since beta.

    Once you master proc'ing the bow its GG tho on mageblade. I typically always pop 2 spectral bows off per cast of merciless and could probably get 3 if I didn't prefer to recast it before going back to resto bar after my second proc. That's mostly just preference because then I'm not pressured to get back to front bar so I don't miss my proc. I've taken to slotting degeneration back bar (since I chugged 3k spell power pots and didn't bother to farm more mats) and using that to empower either the bow or an ultimate after bar swap.
    Edited by Lexxypwns on 5 octobre 2017 6:34
    PC NA
    @lexxypwns
    Xbox NA
    GT: Champion Points
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    Mageblade main
  • Kalante
    Kalante
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kalante a écrit: »
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    These are my own ideas, and I hope to hear criticism about them and/or your own ideas for the Nightblade as well.

    Pulling from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374513/new-nightblade-skill-replacing-agony-change-to-backstab/p1:
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    To be honest, I think that agony (Malefic Offering) should be left alone. It adds in a healing that is so different from the standard norm, I think its a good thing, for now, as it gives NB healing a uniqueness.

    What I honestly think (and this is just quick speculation), is that the Master Assassin passive should be tweaked a bit. And at least a few skill should be shifted around.

    To begin with:

    Master Assassin now increases your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by [x]% against targets facing away from you (+ the sneak stun bonus).

    I would then take Veiled Attack, and swap it's position with Blur, then Swap Veiled Attack and Assassin's Blade in the skill unlock list.
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    @Shadzilla

    Of course.

    My next suggestion would be to then do this:

    Teleport Strike:
    Part of the base skill and carrying over to the morphs:
    Casting this from stealth or cloak teleports you behind your target, or the nearest valid terrain.

    Now you have a way to re-position yourself behind an enemy, it comes with a little setup so that you aren't always behind your enemy (requiring you to at least spend magicka on cloak while in combat), as well as giving you a way to gap close into your passive ability. (Having the camera rotate for the player automatically might be a good thing here). (This is also kinda a nerf as a PvP guy could expect a newb using Teleport strike all the time with cloak to always show up behind them).

    Mark Target, Implications for NB in PvP
    Now that Surprise Attack is in the Assassination Tree, it might be beneficial to change the functionality of the stamina morph of Surprise Attack so this is the skill they need to apply an armor debuff rather than sNB spamming SA all the time.

    At this point, SA (and veiled strike) has been gutted absolutely ruthlessly. It now no longer debuffs the enemy with Major Fracture for sNB, but for both mNB and sNB you no longer gain Major Resistance buffs from spamming this attack.

    So, at this point, how can Veiled Strike be buffed (or other aspects of the NB skills) in order to compensate for this tremendous amount of nerf in regards to self-buffs and target debuffs?

    My thoughts on this are as follows:

    Change Master Assassin (in the Assassination Skill Tree), to increase WD and SD against targets facing away from you (by the current amount that is applied to the sneaking bonus)

    Move Veiled Strike (SA) into the Assassination Tree, replacing Blur (into Shadow) and swapping Assassin's Blade(Killer's Blade) with Veiled Strike(SA)

    Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

    Veiled Strike (base functionality) will no longer stun from stealth or cloak, but will instead ignore blocking mitigation if cast from behind an enemy.

    Surprise Attack (VS) will no longer debuff with Major Fracture, but instead will have different functionality. It will now grant the Stun bonus that was removed in the base skill.

    Now NB is much more position dependent, and can take down permablocking tanks if they're silly enough to expose their back to the NB. However this comes at the cost of not getting Major Resistance Buffs from spamming Surprise attack, as well as relegating Major Fracture to Mark Target.


    I'd love to hear constructive criticism about this, as well as your own ideas. (Constructive criticism does not mean "applauding" the idea. but rather offering feedback with reasoning behind it. It could be negative criticism but with solid reasoning behind it. Remaining Civil is always a plus.)

    I am glad you are not in charge of the combat.
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    @Kalante

    Cool. Fantastic feedback. I can get sooo much insight from this. Why are you glad I am not in charge of the combat? Or, is this a frivolous thought you deigned to show to my obviously inferior intellect?

    Most fights against good players are always face to face, it would also be very annoying combat wise to constantly turn your camera behind you because this one nightblade with zero skill keeps trying to get behind you in hopes to get the lucky hit. In console you can't turn the camera as fast like in pc. I would imagine pc players would also get annoyed. Don't we already have enough cancer in pvp? lol.
    MWsRAGE_5
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Kalante

    Ah, so you prefer homogeneous combat where it's more about being better at timing your skills than reacting to your opponent. (I know you still have to react to your opponent in combat even now. but why only reacting to Stuns and heals rather than to position as well?)
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on 5 octobre 2017 7:09
  • SirAndy
    SirAndy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    That would mean the death of my stamina Nightblade brawler build.

    Remember, not everyone plays Nightblades the same way you do ...
    dry.gif
    The Sidekick Order:
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  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    Class Representative
    I understand what you're trying to do here and acknowledge that your are taking some things away if a NB doesn't attack the opponent's flank.

    But this is a huge buff: a spammable that stuns and can go through block. Wow. And these changes would make it pretty much impossible to retreat from a NB without getting rekt.
  • Kilandros
    Kilandros
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Lexxypwns a écrit: »
    Kilandros a écrit: »
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    These are my own ideas, and I hope to hear criticism about them and/or your own ideas for the Nightblade as well.

    Pulling from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374513/new-nightblade-skill-replacing-agony-change-to-backstab/p1:
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    To be honest, I think that agony (Malefic Offering) should be left alone. It adds in a healing that is so different from the standard norm, I think its a good thing, for now, as it gives NB healing a uniqueness.

    What I honestly think (and this is just quick speculation), is that the Master Assassin passive should be tweaked a bit. And at least a few skill should be shifted around.

    To begin with:

    Master Assassin now increases your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by [x]% against targets facing away from you (+ the sneak stun bonus).

    I would then take Veiled Attack, and swap it's position with Blur, then Swap Veiled Attack and Assassin's Blade in the skill unlock list.
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    @Shadzilla

    Of course.

    My next suggestion would be to then do this:

    Teleport Strike:
    Part of the base skill and carrying over to the morphs:
    Casting this from stealth or cloak teleports you behind your target, or the nearest valid terrain.

    Now you have a way to re-position yourself behind an enemy, it comes with a little setup so that you aren't always behind your enemy (requiring you to at least spend magicka on cloak while in combat), as well as giving you a way to gap close into your passive ability. (Having the camera rotate for the player automatically might be a good thing here). (This is also kinda a nerf as a PvP guy could expect a newb using Teleport strike all the time with cloak to always show up behind them).

    Mark Target, Implications for NB in PvP
    Now that Surprise Attack is in the Assassination Tree, it might be beneficial to change the functionality of the stamina morph of Surprise Attack so this is the skill they need to apply an armor debuff rather than sNB spamming SA all the time.

    At this point, SA (and veiled strike) has been gutted absolutely ruthlessly. It now no longer debuffs the enemy with Major Fracture for sNB, but for both mNB and sNB you no longer gain Major Resistance buffs from spamming this attack.

    So, at this point, how can Veiled Strike be buffed (or other aspects of the NB skills) in order to compensate for this tremendous amount of nerf in regards to self-buffs and target debuffs?

    My thoughts on this are as follows:

    Change Master Assassin (in the Assassination Skill Tree), to increase WD and SD against targets facing away from you (by the current amount that is applied to the sneaking bonus)

    Move Veiled Strike (SA) into the Assassination Tree, replacing Blur (into Shadow) and swapping Assassin's Blade(Killer's Blade) with Veiled Strike(SA)

    Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

    Veiled Strike (base functionality) will no longer stun from stealth or cloak, but will instead ignore blocking mitigation if cast from behind an enemy.

    Surprise Attack (VS) will no longer debuff with Major Fracture, but instead will have different functionality. It will now grant the Stun bonus that was removed in the base skill.

    Now NB is much more position dependent, and can take down permablocking tanks if they're silly enough to expose their back to the NB. However this comes at the cost of not getting Major Resistance Buffs from spamming Surprise attack, as well as relegating Major Fracture to Mark Target.


    I'd love to hear constructive criticism about this, as well as your own ideas. (Constructive criticism does not mean "applauding" the idea. but rather offering feedback with reasoning behind it. It could be negative criticism but with solid reasoning behind it. Remaining Civil is always a plus.)

    Those are a lot of buffs/changes for a class that is already very potent and getting buffed this patch. I do think that Surprise Attack and Blur should swap lines for cohesion and so that SA can take advantage of the buffed Executioner passive.

    As far as mNB goes, my biggest complaint is that the Assassin's Will proc is very very clunky. They're improving that, so we're going to need to see how that plays out. But in general I think both Magicka and Stamina NB are in very good spots right now.

    The last thing you want is for NB to get overbuffed because when it inevitably gets nerfed to compensate ZOS will go overboard with both direct and indirect nerfs. Trust me on this, I've played a DK since beta.

    Once you master proc'ing the bow its GG tho on mageblade. I typically always pop 2 spectral bows off per cast of merciless and could probably get 3 if I didn't prefer to recast it before going back to resto bar after my second proc. That's mostly just preference because then I'm not pressured to get back to front bar so I don't miss my proc. I've taken to slotting degeneration back bar (since I chugged 3k spell power pots and didn't bother to farm more mats) and using that to empower either the bow or an ultimate after bar swap.

    Niiiice, yeah it's extremely satisfying (and devastating) to land the proc in PvP. I'm definitely nowhere near getting 3 procs off per cast though lol, I've got a ways to go. But I am looking forward to being able to animation cancel the proc next patch.
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
    Sias - Sorcerer / Prefect
    ZOS_GinaBruno a écrit: »
    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Joy_Division

    A Spammable that stuns only if a condition is met: From cloak or stealth (which is already how the base and each morph of veiled strike work already), and will only stun through block if another condition is met: Being behind your opponent.

    Meaning in order to stun through block using that ability, while in combat, a player has to cloak, and get behind his opponent. If the cloak is broken, or the attack is not from directly behind the opponent, it will fail.

    If your concern is that this would make Nightblades way to useful when it comes to attacking tanky AF characters who take 3+ people to kill. I don't see a problem with that. they can slot a ground AoE like caltrops and easily build against that.
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on 5 octobre 2017 10:08
  • Lucky28
    Lucky28
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kilandros a écrit: »
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    These are my own ideas, and I hope to hear criticism about them and/or your own ideas for the Nightblade as well.

    Pulling from https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374513/new-nightblade-skill-replacing-agony-change-to-backstab/p1:
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    To be honest, I think that agony (Malefic Offering) should be left alone. It adds in a healing that is so different from the standard norm, I think its a good thing, for now, as it gives NB healing a uniqueness.

    What I honestly think (and this is just quick speculation), is that the Master Assassin passive should be tweaked a bit. And at least a few skill should be shifted around.

    To begin with:

    Master Assassin now increases your Weapon Damage and Spell Damage by [x]% against targets facing away from you (+ the sneak stun bonus).

    I would then take Veiled Attack, and swap it's position with Blur, then Swap Veiled Attack and Assassin's Blade in the skill unlock list.
    Avran_Sylt a écrit: »
    @Shadzilla

    Of course.

    My next suggestion would be to then do this:

    Teleport Strike:
    Part of the base skill and carrying over to the morphs:
    Casting this from stealth or cloak teleports you behind your target, or the nearest valid terrain.

    Now you have a way to re-position yourself behind an enemy, it comes with a little setup so that you aren't always behind your enemy (requiring you to at least spend magicka on cloak while in combat), as well as giving you a way to gap close into your passive ability. (Having the camera rotate for the player automatically might be a good thing here). (This is also kinda a nerf as a PvP guy could expect a newb using Teleport strike all the time with cloak to always show up behind them).

    Mark Target, Implications for NB in PvP
    Now that Surprise Attack is in the Assassination Tree, it might be beneficial to change the functionality of the stamina morph of Surprise Attack so this is the skill they need to apply an armor debuff rather than sNB spamming SA all the time.

    At this point, SA (and veiled strike) has been gutted absolutely ruthlessly. It now no longer debuffs the enemy with Major Fracture for sNB, but for both mNB and sNB you no longer gain Major Resistance buffs from spamming this attack.

    So, at this point, how can Veiled Strike be buffed (or other aspects of the NB skills) in order to compensate for this tremendous amount of nerf in regards to self-buffs and target debuffs?

    My thoughts on this are as follows:

    Change Master Assassin (in the Assassination Skill Tree), to increase WD and SD against targets facing away from you (by the current amount that is applied to the sneaking bonus)

    Move Veiled Strike (SA) into the Assassination Tree, replacing Blur (into Shadow) and swapping Assassin's Blade(Killer's Blade) with Veiled Strike(SA)

    Teleport Strike (base functionality) will now position you behind your Target if cast from cloak or stealth or invisibility.

    Veiled Strike (base functionality) will no longer stun from stealth or cloak, but will instead ignore blocking mitigation if cast from behind an enemy.

    Surprise Attack (VS) will no longer debuff with Major Fracture, but instead will have different functionality. It will now grant the Stun bonus that was removed in the base skill.

    Now NB is much more position dependent, and can take down permablocking tanks if they're silly enough to expose their back to the NB. However this comes at the cost of not getting Major Resistance Buffs from spamming Surprise attack, as well as relegating Major Fracture to Mark Target.


    I'd love to hear constructive criticism about this, as well as your own ideas. (Constructive criticism does not mean "applauding" the idea. but rather offering feedback with reasoning behind it. It could be negative criticism but with solid reasoning behind it. Remaining Civil is always a plus.)

    Those are a lot of buffs/changes for a class that is already very potent and getting buffed this patch. I do think that Surprise Attack and Blur should swap lines for cohesion and so that SA can take advantage of the buffed Executioner passive.

    i would prefer not, so my Concealed can take advantage of Shadow barrier. that would be a major blow for melee magblades.
    Invictus
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