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Last 6 dlc dungeons too difficult, not puggable

Tasmin
Tasmin
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I have been left cold by the last 6 dungeon dlcs because I think them too hard to be fun in vet, and only do-able in established groups with guildies unless you luck into an incredible PUG - and how often does that happen?

Now, I quite like Imperial Prison and don't think it its sister dungeon White Gold Tower is unfair but neither are favourites. But they are not the offending dungeons to my mind. The ones I have never enjoyed are The Hist dungeons, Ruins of Mazzarum and Cradle of Shadows. These are murderous in pugs and so very rarely successful via LFG. You can add to this list the DLC which followed, the Horns of the Reach dungeons Falkreath Hold and BloodRoot Forge. Then, just to make sure that Zenimax estranged hitherto happy dungeon goers like myself, they released the Dragon Bones dungeons, Scalecaller Peak and Fang Lair.

Long time guildies of mine will remember I used to live in dungeons during my online playtime but now I very rarely do them, and am wary or using the LFG tool for fear of getting a doomed-from-the start later-dlc run or worse, a "blue portal of death" run (where usually one or two lowbie DDs have come up against hard bosses, the group has split and rather than admit defeat you get sucked into their train crash via LFG, as a replacement for the players who rightly fled).

Now of course people will say that they have occasionally got lucky with PUGs via LFG but that's exceptionally rare in my experience.

I think the last 6 dungeons appeal only to a minority of players, almost entirely already guildies or friends and that the expectation of failure in a pug undermines the spontaneity one used to enjoy in signing up for vet dungeon run via lfg. We can of course arrange guild runs when the right ppl are online to make a group viable, but that's not the point. I miss most, whenhaving say, only an hour or so playtime available, being able to sign up to any dungeon on my healer or tank via lfg and at least feel we had a decent crack at completing a dungeon. I no longer do and have effectively withdrawn from dungeon life unless ppl need me to pitch in in our guild..

And that's a real shame.

I propose that there should be three tiers of difficulty for the 6 dlc dungeons: an elite mode, for want of a better term (suggestions?) to please those people who meet in established groups to complete the 6 vet dungeons mentioned above. This would be similar in difficulty to the current vet default, where PUGs will rarely succeed. The default vet mode would then be pitched somewhere between that and normal hence achievable with pugs, but somewhat challenging still. Normals would remain as they are. In other words, the highest tier of difficulty would be the current vet HMs, which would have to be opted into via lfg, but the default difficulty for dlc vets would be lower and Puggable, which, in the main, they currently are not.

Thoughts?
  • Gythral
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    Don't PUG...
    look for a guild that is doing that content, that's always been the way of things
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    Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
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  • FloppyTouch
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    What's the point though? If you want something less hard you do normals want something hard you do vet want something even harder you do vet hardmode no deathrun. It's already in the the game the three tiers you want.

    I also disagree the new vet dungeons are too hard for pugs. I have done everyone got all the helms and sets I needed from pug groups they are not as bad as people like you make them out to be. I have used the group finder for all dungeon clears for 2 years now and rarely been in groups that can't clear them.
  • FR0STDEE
    FR0STDEE
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    I agree 100%. As a dps the great frustration of queuing for 1hr 15min then not making it past the first boss in vet fang lair because low level pugs struggle with the harder content. Yet original vet dungeons (which can be a strain to without the right people) you can still make it to the last boss and maybe wipe a couple of times before finally completing it. I know players will argue the fact they need to be harder because champ levels get higher but running the same dungeon with the same group is boring af. I want to run dungeons with new people with the purpose of meeting new people and still have a chance at getting the rewards that vet levels pay out.
  • Vahrokh
    Vahrokh
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    Gythral wrote: »
    Don't PUG...
    look for a guild that is doing that content, that's always been the way of things

    I've switched close to 20 "self proclaimed 4 men" guilds in one year.

    Yes, most of them ran 4 men dungeons, no, none of them ran DLC dungeons. People just won't want to do them.
  • Aurielle
    Aurielle
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    My first clears of vSP and vFL were with pugs, so... YMMV. *shrug* Your best bet for clearing vet DLC dungeons when they’re the pledges is to run with guildies. Not always ideal, but it’s the best option we’ve got. Three difficulty tiers would increase queue times significantly, and they’re already bad when you’re queued as a damage dealer.
  • HappyLittleTree
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    I know this sounds stupid but...

    learn mechanics, use mic to coordinate boss fights, maybe switch some skills if needed.

    If you know mechanics but others don't explain them to them...

    I've finished dlc content on vet even with low cp players.

    Don't be that stupid DD who can only do DPS and is surprised if he dies standing in red.

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  • Bigevilpeter
    Bigevilpeter
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    Every new dungeon takes time for people to learn their mechanics I remeber when people though WGT and ICP were extreemly hard and now they are pugged cause most people know their mechanics by now.

    Hist dungeons have been puggable for a while now you just need to ask of they have done it before adding them to the group, I pugged them a lot

    I quit ESO a bit after morrowind and just came back so I don't know much about the new dungeons but I'm guessing it will be the same eventually.
  • Marabornwingrion
    Marabornwingrion
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    I will quote eso devs: "git gud".
  • SickDuck
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    ESO should have standardised the difficulty of the dungeons long time ago. Not just dlc but each and every dungeon. We used to have 54 scales of dungeons before 1T now it’s all gone.

    Currently normal, veteran and “hard” mode dungeons vary widely in challenge levels. This makes group finder even more of a gambling than it should be. I’d like to see them balanced to a similar difficulty level accross 5 scales (for now at least, with option for future harder versions).

    Scale 1: easy normal dungeons like FG1 or VoM, aimed at all levels
    Scale 2: harder (old type “II”) normal dungeons like SC2 or EH2, aimed at lvl 45+
    Scale 3: easier veteran dungeons like CoA1 or FG1, aimed at low cp players
    Scale 4: harder veteran dungeons like CoA2 or WGT, aimed at cp 300+
    Scale 5: hard mode of dungeons with the whole instance beefed up to a harder mode than today (as necessary, varies based on dungeon), aimed at cp 600+. No more scrolls for hard mode, need to pick it before entering.

    Queueing for a specific scale would require to complete the dungeon on the previous scale before (ie. “Conqueror” achievement).

    This... + give some incentive to actually run those modes. For starters, change the bonus xp and rewards for running random normals vs veterans so not everyone runs normals only.
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  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    They require a level of group coordination and player experience that RDF is typically never going to provide, and that's perfectly fine. (There are randoms that still wipe on WGT/ICP, the very first two DLC dungeons)

    Run them on normal. Run with with a dedicated (non-Pug) group. Hone your (group) skills on one of numerous other dungeons and come back to this one and try again.

    There's a skill gap with these, something that's been missing from most game content for quite some time.

    Not every piece of content needs to allow a guaranteed clear.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

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  • Carbonised
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    Astrid_V wrote: »
    I will quote eso devs: "git gud".

    It was a completely stupid thing to say to the game's audience, when they obviously have the statistics that show just how few people run these dungeons in vet regularly, let along on HM and the various circus hoop mechanics you have to do in order to get the achievements, titles, skins etc.

    Such a cringe-worthy comment from a dev. Apparently they don't care about releasing content twice a year that appeals to the very tiny minority of players.

    The discrepancy between normal and vet dungeons is much too high. It's baffling how ZOS dungeon designers can't figure out a middle ground between DLC vet dungeons that are impossible to do unless in a coordinated premade group, and normal dungeons that you can basically solo with your off-hand.

    Edited by Carbonised on April 23, 2018 11:02AM
  • White wabbit
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    It will just end up that some people just won't buy the dungeon dlc if they know they won't compete them, seems a bad business model to me
  • DanteYoda
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    Its why i don't do dungeons.. You either pug and fail or suffer through with elitists..

    Honestly all this git gud bs these days.. I remember days when it took upwards of 50 players to complete dungeons.. Sucked then and it sucks now..

    They need to scale difficulty on peoples cp and amount of people in teams, this elitist minority of bigots that ruin team content these days, they are disgusting people...
    It will just end up that some people just won't buy the dungeon dlc if they know they won't compete them, seems a bad business model to me

    If i didn't get the content for free with eso+ i know i wouldn't buy them, the communities that run these things are toxic and abysmal.. as bad as pvpers..
    Edited by DanteYoda on April 23, 2018 10:54AM
  • Chaos2088
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    These dungeons were designed with end players in mind, so people who have completed vet dungeons time and time again.

    But yes people who are just getting into them/don't do that often/or intermediate players can find them difficult. Do look for people in guilds to run with as mentioned above. Sometimes you can get a few pug grps who can do it. But thats 50/50. lol

    It would be ace if we had Normal, Vet, and Elite/Legendary modes. Taking DLC vet lvl of difficulty into that Elite mode. But then I supposed people who say that mode would be too hard.

    There is a good reason why there is hard content in the game, would be dull if there wasn't any. But yes in the DLC dungs there is a very large difference between normal and vet.

    I am still waiting for version 2 of some of the base game dungeons! ;)
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  • Peekachu99
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    I only pug the DLC ones daily on two tanks. I don’t have the time or inclination to shout in various guilds or via discord when I could be doing other things. They are easily my favorite content in the game. In the past two weeks, after swapping back to PS4, I’ve gotten all of my achieves/ skins except for a no death on Scalecaller. Yes, Scale HM was completed in 9 pulls by a pug. It’s not a miracle, just a full compliment of 720s on voice chat who knew what they were doing. None of these dungeons are hard if you take on a leadership role (either tank or healer) and are familiar with the mechanics. Also, learn to identify after a pull or two if the group even has the dps to complete the dungeon. If not, gracefully (not ragefully) bow out.

    Some of the best players, on console at least, use activity finder regularly and do their Trials at set weekend times. It’s the luck of the draw, really. Sometimes you meet amazing players, sometimes not so amazing ones. #1 rule: always be ready to carry if you queue.
    Edited by Peekachu99 on April 23, 2018 11:05AM
  • Peekachu99
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    DanteYoda wrote: »
    Its why i don't do dungeons.. You either pug and fail or suffer through with elitists..

    Honestly all this git gud bs these days.. I remember days when it took upwards of 50 players to complete dungeons.. Sucked then and it sucks now..

    They need to scale difficulty on peoples cp and amount of people in teams, this elitist minority of bigots that ruin team content these days, they are disgusting people...
    It will just end up that some people just won't buy the dungeon dlc if they know they won't compete them, seems a bad business model to me

    If i didn't get the content for free with eso+ i know i wouldn't buy them, the communities that run these things are toxic and abysmal.. as bad as pvpers..

    You’re conflating eletists with people who are actually geared, competent and ready for the hardest content in the game, vs. those who aren’t and come in with this “play as I want” mentality with their 2h 30k HP stamplar dps (this happened today in Bloodforge) expecting to somehow contribute meaningfully to the group.

    I think the only thing ZOS can do is to continue to enforce the difficulty through CP requirements and perhaps even messaging that “THIS CONTENT IS HARD YO!” when people are picking up pledges from the orc lady.
  • TheValar85
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    i god i am so with you :D Not kidding even in normal it is painful sometimes. Considering alot of bosses hp is way bigger in normal, almost as big as in veteran. Wich is a bit too much for the new comemrs, basicly yesterday i had to solo Falkreth Hold cos the the others were dead on every boss.... (in normal) im not going to mention vet becasue thats more bad.

    Yeah i know do it with guild is betetr, but basicly those 5 guilds then i am in they bearly even have a discusssion in guild chat or on discord. i dont know people burned out or something?
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  • niawrathb16_ESO
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    I think the latest DLC dungeons are the most fun I have had in a 4 man group in ages a nice challenge but doable .
    As for the LFG tool in Summerset patch notes it says -
    "The Following Dungeons have been adjusted to require CP300 in order to queue using the Activity Finder:
    Veteran Bloodroot Forge
    Veteran Cradle of Shadows
    Veteran Falkreath Hold
    Veteran Fang Lair
    Veteran Imperial City Prison
    Veteran Ruins of Mazzatun
    Veteran Scalecaller Peak
    Veteran White-Gold Tower "

    Which should help bad luck you may have in finding players with not enough experience for the DLC dungeons. Although CP does not always correlate to ability it should help.
    May you have keen eyes and sharp scythes

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  • Aisle9
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    Tasmin wrote: »
    I have been left cold by the last 6 dungeon dlcs because I think them too hard to be fun in vet, and only do-able in established groups with guildies unless you luck into an incredible PUG - and how often does that happen?

    Now, I quite like Imperial Prison and don't think it its sister dungeon White Gold Tower is unfair but neither are favourites. But they are not the offending dungeons to my mind. The ones I have never enjoyed are The Hist dungeons, Ruins of Mazzarum and Cradle of Shadows. These are murderous in pugs and so very rarely successful via LFG. You can add to this list the DLC which followed, the Horns of the Reach dungeons Falkreath Hold and BloodRoot Forge. Then, just to make sure that Zenimax estranged hitherto happy dungeon goers like myself, they released the Dragon Bones dungeons, Scalecaller Peak and Fang Lair.

    Long time guildies of mine will remember I used to live in dungeons during my online playtime but now I very rarely do them, and am wary or using the LFG tool for fear of getting a doomed-from-the start later-dlc run or worse, a "blue portal of death" run (where usually one or two lowbie DDs have come up against hard bosses, the group has split and rather than admit defeat you get sucked into their train crash via LFG, as a replacement for the players who rightly fled).

    Now of course people will say that they have occasionally got lucky with PUGs via LFG but that's exceptionally rare in my experience.

    I think the last 6 dungeons appeal only to a minority of players, almost entirely already guildies or friends and that the expectation of failure in a pug undermines the spontaneity one used to enjoy in signing up for vet dungeon run via lfg. We can of course arrange guild runs when the right ppl are online to make a group viable, but that's not the point. I miss most, whenhaving say, only an hour or so playtime available, being able to sign up to any dungeon on my healer or tank via lfg and at least feel we had a decent crack at completing a dungeon. I no longer do and have effectively withdrawn from dungeon life unless ppl need me to pitch in in our guild..

    And that's a real shame.

    I propose that there should be three tiers of difficulty for the 6 dlc dungeons: an elite mode, for want of a better term (suggestions?) to please those people who meet in established groups to complete the 6 vet dungeons mentioned above. This would be similar in difficulty to the current vet default, where PUGs will rarely succeed. The default vet mode would then be pitched somewhere between that and normal hence achievable with pugs, but somewhat challenging still. Normals would remain as they are. In other words, the highest tier of difficulty would be the current vet HMs, which would have to be opted into via lfg, but the default difficulty for dlc vets would be lower and Puggable, which, in the main, they currently are not.

    Thoughts?

    No amount of extra difficulty layers will help you with the GF.

    In the game of Pugs you win or you ragequit.

    When you can pug in content that people struggle to complete on normal, having the "medium" difficulty only adds extra workload and time that I'd rather be used to polish the 2 existing difficulties.

    That's my opinion.

    Summerset will add a CP300 requisite to DLC dungeons, so extreme lowbs will be barred from them. That said, I'm convinced that CPs are not a good indicator of the player's ability to complete content.

    We'll see.
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  • Merlin13KAGL
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    Carbonised wrote: »
    The discrepancy between normal and vet dungeons is much too high. It's baffling how ZOS dungeon designers can't figure out a middle ground between DLC vet dungeons that are impossible to do unless in a coordinated premade group, and normal dungeons that you can basically solo with your off-hand.
    This doesn't just apply to the DLC's though. It's game wide.

    nTrials, nFourMan, nAnything, really. Once you're past a certain point in your build, they require zero mechanics and teach nothing about what's to come when you click over to Vet.

    There is absolutely no gradual transition of any kind anywhere in this game. Everything either nips at your heels or wrecks you in 5 seconds.

    Again, at least when the dungeons were zone leveled, you had a range of options. If you walked into Blackheart at level 20, you expected to get your asses handed to you. You could tell when you were advancing as a player when you could start to tackle the harder stuff (higher than your recommended level) earlier than it was designed for.

    With everything scaled, all that is left is norm (faceroll), Vet (varies), and Vet HM (anywhere from reasonable to WTF and everything in between.)

    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

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  • kylewwefan
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    I see no reason to exclude WGT and ICP from the list. They’re all abortion runs with group finder. You know how many times I’ve come in blue Portal at the planar inhibitors or the flesh sculptor. It’s the worst part about having ESO+

    I haven’t had a pug beat the first boss of scalecaller yet. Even most pugs can beat the regular non- dlc Vet dungeons in 15 to 20 minutes. You spend that much time on the first boss. Forget about it. The groups not gonna beat the dungeon.

    I will say, they are fun with a good group that has right builds/roles. Good damage, real tank and healer that can also DPS a little.

    This doesn’t happen very often though. And hardmodes are often far out of the question. Even in good groups. And they can take awhile, Also with good groups.
  • Nelson_Rebel
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    Even months after shadows of the hist dropped that dungeon is still very much un puggable without an exceptional group that is already well versed in how to do mechanics


    Me and my guild were able to beat Vet Scalecaller peak the day it came out, but I already know I would NEVER pug for it, and I would never Pug the other Dlc dungeons either. They are of a different level of difficulty.

    So I suspect the majority of players in this game dont even attempt it, or even the older dlc dungeons because its been ingrained for so long that they are unpuggable.

    Quite sad really how little is left of the PvE dungeons and trials scene, just 6 months ago there was always groups Lfg in zone chat or on mics looking for that extra 1 to fill their group but were always pugging with people back then.


    I agree, that the difficulty of content across the board needs to be slightly tuned down, but not just by blanket HP nerfs or pve mobs damage reduced. They need to start looking at these dungeons specific mechanics and see whats just over the top killing players hundreds of times over and think about adjusting them to be a bit less punishing of boring, cheesy, extra 1 shot AoE galore fest it currently is right now.
    Edited by Nelson_Rebel on April 23, 2018 12:08PM
  • ccfeeling
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    Don't Pug or u able to carry :D
  • DMuehlhausen
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    Gythral wrote: »
    Don't PUG...
    look for a guild that is doing that content, that's always been the way of things

    That's possible the worst comment on the forums...in well ever. Not everybody wants to be in a guild, nor chooses to be in a large guild. Some want smaller more personal guilds. The 4 man content should be easy enough to PuG.

    Now that being said...they are puggable. I have gotten through almost all of them with PuGs. The problem is nobody is patient enough for teach or help people through a dungeon a few times. First time I was in Scalercaller the other day. It was PUG and we got through without a problem. The day before I pugged both vRoM and vCoS. I did vWGT the other day without a wipe on any boss in a PUG. Once people have time to learn them they are fine.
  • Carbonised
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    I agree, that the difficulty of content across the board needs to be slightly tuned down, but not just by blanket HP nerfs or pve mobs damage reduced. They need to start looking at these dungeons specific mechanics and see whats just over the top killing players hundreds of times over and think about adjusting them to be a bit less punishing of boring, cheesy, extra 1 shot AoE galore fest it currently is right now.

    The current dev team is so in love with 1 shot mechanics that currently you're better off with 3 dds and a pseudotank than with a healer in the group. Everyone is so baked in self-heals and shields and other defensive mechanisms that regular trash damage is no problem to mitigate or outheal. And for everything that's dangerous, that's a 1 shot anyway, no matter how many healers you bring along, so better just ditch the healer and get another DD for even more burn and burst.

    1-shot mechanics aren't fun, they don't teach you the mechanics, they just punish you for ZOS' badly telegraphed mechanics, and dissuade anyone new or new-ish to just forget about this content. Elite players will only group with elite players, for 1 simple mistake will wipe you, and most likely wipe your group as well.

    The devs made vet hM dungs so hard they themselves couldn't even do it (as was proven on the scalecaller livestream). If I wanted to play Dark Souls, I'd have friggin played Dark Souls instead of ESO ...
  • Nelson_Rebel
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    ccfeeling wrote: »
    Don't Pug or u able to carry :D

    This mentality is whats wrong with the games polulation of PvE groups for the last 6-7 months.



    Don't pug, dont meet new players, dont grow or foster a healthy thriving community of players going to help each other.


    Stick to the old ways, in the same guild only running with the same people because its the only way to get through any content.


    Sorry but this is a toxic mentality. Vet Trials should be the ONLY reason to seriously consider the exact people you need to bring not dungeons that are MEANT to be used to meet new players and help them grow. Now almost no one does the group finder for fear of these dungeons popping up on their Random dailies
  • Merlin13KAGL
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    Gythral wrote: »
    Don't PUG...
    look for a guild that is doing that content, that's always been the way of things

    That's possible the worst comment on the forums...in well ever. Not everybody wants to be in a guild, nor chooses to be in a large guild. Some want smaller more personal guilds. The 4 man content should be easy enough to PuG.

    Now that being said...they are puggable. I have gotten through almost all of them with PuGs. The problem is nobody is patient enough for teach or help people through a dungeon a few times. First time I was in Scalercaller the other day. It was PUG and we got through without a problem. The day before I pugged both vRoM and vCoS. I did vWGT the other day without a wipe on any boss in a PUG. Once people have time to learn them they are fine.
    Pretty sure you didn't PUG in the usual sense of the term.

    You got very lucky and happened to get grouped with four experienced people that knew what they were doing and were geared, skilled, and coordinated accordingly. Even if they'd never set foot in the specific dungeons, I'm guessing all were very well versed in their class and role. This is very different from what most would consider an actual "PuG" group.

    It's like signing up for the carpool and you happen to get paired with three other Forumla One drivers. It can happen, but the odds of such are minute.
    ccfeeling wrote: »
    Don't Pug or u able to carry :D

    This mentality is whats wrong with the games polulation of PvE groups for the last 6-7 months.



    Don't pug, dont meet new players, dont grow or foster a healthy thriving community of players going to help each other.


    Stick to the old ways, in the same guild only running with the same people because its the only way to get through any content.


    Sorry but this is a toxic mentality. Vet Trials should be the ONLY reason to seriously consider the exact people you need to bring not dungeons that are MEANT to be used to meet new players and help them grow. Now almost no one does the group finder for fear of these dungeons popping up on their Random dailies
    There are requirements to clear content, and there is nothing wrong with expecting/wanting to run with people that are capable of doing so.

    This is not new. Before, it was pulling people from your friends list that you knew were capable. "Randoms" didn't get pulled in unless there was a spot that couldn't be filled. And if everyone did well, or better yet, exceptional, they generally got added to the friends list or invited to the guild.

    You can't tell me that you don't have "go-to" people, people that everyone breathes a sigh of relief when they get added to the group. You equally can't tell me that there haven't been people that make the group cringe, due to history. it doesn't mean that can never change, but typically, it doesn't.

    Until they come up with a gauntlet for class/role, showing some level of "certification," if you will, this will continue. In the beginning, it was linking achievements, etc. The only thing that's changed is the criteria of the judgement.

    The judgement has always been there.

    While some view this as toxic or exclusive, it is equally ineffective to insist on proceeding when a group cannot synergize in such a way as to clear a piece of content. Brick walls do not magically inspire or motivate. They never have. They never will.

    Edited by Merlin13KAGL on April 23, 2018 12:25PM
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • ccfeeling
    ccfeeling
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    U may change your mind after u spent over 2 hours to pass vwgt a few times :D


  • Kolache
    Kolache
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    I don't mind super difficult content, I just hate the vast chasm between super easy and fairly hard. I haven't really found many places where I can enjoy a moderate challenge. I don't want to faceroll content... I also don't really want to hyper-meta-build my character and have my period synced with my regular team to get 'er done.
    Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.
  • Carbonised
    Carbonised
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    Funny thing is, I specifically recall them nerfing vWGT and vICP several times through the years, since their "statistics shows that people would often skip these dungeons as daily pledges, and the numbers showed that very few people actually finished these dungeons".

    Fine and dandy, and then they friggin' go and add 6 more dungeons that make WGT and ICP look like a Sunday stroll in the park. And apparently we can look forward to 4 more of these every year, with no new dungeons added in in the usual veteran dungeon difficulty, or around the ICP/WGT ones.

    What the heck? It's like one hand doesn't even know what the other one is doing. Why nerf IC dungeons due to numbers, when I can bet you those same numbers show even less people regularly doing and finishing Hist dungeons, Reach dungeons and Bones dungeons. Let alone HM.
This discussion has been closed.