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Damn It, ZOS! Again With This HM Crap!?

Ch4mpTW
Ch4mpTW
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You once again locked a trial skin behind a hard mode clear. Why? Why tf do you keep doing this? As is only a tiny fraction of your player base can beat VAS HM+2, which results in people selling skin runs. Something which ultimately should not exist in a game to begin with. And even after we told you about how we found this practice unhealthy to the game, you go and do it again!?

Do you NOT have the data which shows how many can legitimately beat VAS+2 across all platforms? Why not give the skin to people who can beat it on veteran, like VMoL? Why this HM bs? Why!?

And before all of the Top 1% come scrambling in to defend this crap, no. I don’t care what you have to say. More than the 1% of the PvE player base wants to be rewarded handsomely for dreading through these meat shield bosses, with cheesy mechanics and obnoxiously high HP. Smfh. Not everyone wants to pay someone for a skin clear (I’ve yet to pay for a carry, and never will). How as a developer do you even sit back comfortably with that? Do you not even see just how much the trial side of PvE is dying? And across all platforms? Or again, do you just not care?

inb4 this thread gets locked for some vague reason, and I get yet another message and or email how I broke some obscure rule that was up to mods discretion. :|
  • Kikke
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    to keep it special ?
    Cleared Trials:
    - vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM - vCR HM -

    "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching."
    -Someone said it, I guess.
  • ArchMikem
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    Occupy-Wall-Street-movement-20111.jpg

    HEY HEY. HOH HOH. SWAG FROM HARD MODE'S GOT TO GO.

    Edited by ArchMikem on April 16, 2018 11:44PM
    CP1,900+ Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
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  • zyk
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    Exclusivity is what makes items valuable. If everyone had access to these rewards, they would be irrelevant.

    The problem in this game is that there aren't enough exclusive rewards for completing difficult content -- and far too much available to those willing to waste hundreds of dollars gambling.
    Edited by zyk on April 16, 2018 11:34PM
  • Tandor
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    I wouldn't know as I don't do trials, but are you saying that the hardest content rewards the best gear? Is that the complaint?
  • Ch4mpTW
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    kikkehs wrote: »
    to keep it special ?

    This is why ZOS is losing people to: WoW, Tera, Overwatch, Fortnite, and other games as of lately. MMO or not. And will continue to do so. It’s not even a matter of “omg the sky is falling”. It’s a matter of people getting fed up with the nonsense occurring time after time.

    There is no way that you can look at the current state of PvE, and assume that things are healthy. Leaderboards not being filled like they used to. Skin runs no longer being frowned upon, and becoming an acceptable means of acquiring completes. Trial guilds falling apart and disbanding. Elitism at an all time high. And so on.

    But again, to keep things special. Yeah...?
  • Marabornwingrion
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    I'm so sick of their new trial vision. Now every trial will be a "mini trial", and hard mode won't add any new mechanics, you will get all bosses at once instead. Booooring!

    Also not happy of skins locked behind HMs. HM should grant you unique titles and achievements, skin should be rewarded for veteran completion.

    I still think that vMoL is the best trial they ever released, I with we could get more of these types.
  • pattyLtd
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    Relax take chill pill if necessary. :D
    As long as its just a skin, its not that bad IMO.

    I do see your point but what else should a reward be because it does deserve a good reward imo.
    Ps: i will probably never get the skin but thats ok.

    Edit: only half of my message posted somehow :/
    Edited by pattyLtd on April 16, 2018 11:44PM
    English is not my native language, no grammar police please, tyvm
  • Ch4mpTW
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    Tandor wrote: »
    I wouldn't know as I don't do trials, but are you saying that the hardest content rewards the best gear? Is that the complaint?

    No. My complaint is that I’m tired of this HM only clear crap. Whether it be for weapons or skins. I’m sick of it. And damn near all of my friends are as well.
  • Mazbt
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    What they can do is put the skin requirement as a non HM clear, and add some super rare (like 1% or less) items (for Non HM) that will be guaranteed if you beat it on Hard mode. I would really like to see a trial do something like this.
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  • zyk
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    Mazbt wrote: »
    What they can do is put the skin requirement as a non HM clear, and add some super rare (like 1% or less) items (for Non HM) that will be guaranteed if you beat it on Hard mode. I would really like to see a trial do something like this.

    Then no one will care about skins and the focus will be on that 1% thing that only 1% of the players can get, OH THE HUMANITY.

    I mean, why not give these skins out for killing a world boss? That's an epic fight to someone.
    Edited by zyk on April 16, 2018 11:42PM
  • waitwhat
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    zyk wrote: »
    Mazbt wrote: »
    What they can do is put the skin requirement as a non HM clear, and add some super rare (like 1% or less) items (for Non HM) that will be guaranteed if you beat it on Hard mode. I would really like to see a trial do something like this.

    Then no one will care about skins and the focus will be on that 1% thing that only 1% of the players can get, OH THE HUMANITY.

    I mean, why not give these skins out for killing a world boss? That's an epic fight to someone.

    Umm, so it may interest you to know that the vMoL skin isn't locked behind a hardmode, and I still care about getting it very much, as do hundreds of others who pull their numbers, but don't have the right political connections.

    Having the right political connections to get into the right groups shouldn't be the basis for acquiring skins and end-game achievements.
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • MajesticHaruki
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    Why can't they give the skin upon completion of the veteran mode like in vMoL? It's absurd cause most of the players don't ever get the chance to acquire these skins.
    PC/EU @MajThorax Sorcerer and Housing Decorator prodigy
    In my spare time I collect materials and run away from mudcrabs
  • Ch4mpTW
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    Astrid_V wrote: »
    I'm so sick of their new trial vision. Now every trial will be a "mini trial", and hard mode won't add any new mechanics, you will get all bosses at once instead. Booooring!

    Also not happy of skins locked behind HMs. HM should grant you unique titles and achievements, skin should be rewarded for veteran completion.

    I still think that vMoL is the best trial they ever released, I with we could get more of these types.

    I’d give you a million agrees, if I could. But, it’s cool. ZOS’ game, and ZOS’ rules. They design how they want to. Great. And in turn, we don’t have to indulge in it. They clearly want end-game PvE to collapse, so let them get what they want. They want to keep isolating and segregating their player base? Okay. Fine. But years down the road from now, I don’t want to come across a post on Kotaku or Reddit about how so and so was a developed/employee for ZOS. And them talking about how they screwed-up, because they got got too greedy. Or about how they really should’ve paid more attention to what was going on in regards to their player base.

    Lol... People thinking this type of crap is okay, and defending it. Yet, on PS4-NA more and more end-game guilds are becoming wastelands of elitism and toxicity. More and more end-game veterans are up and quitting to: Neverwinter, FF, and Tera. More and more people are taking things even more extreme, and actually selling their accounts for PSN cash. But again, people turning blind eyes and pretending like it’s all gravy. April of 2018, and how many people can even clear VAS+2 (without carry)? I’d be surprised if even 100 can.
  • waitwhat
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    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    Lol... People thinking this type of crap is okay, and defending it. Yet, on PS4-NA more and more end-game guilds are becoming wastelands of elitism and toxicity. More and more end-game veterans are up and quitting to: Neverwinter, FF, and Tera. More and more people are taking things even more extreme, and actually selling their accounts for PSN cash. But again, people turning blind eyes and pretending like it’s all gravy. April of 2018, and how many people can even clear VAS+2 (without carry)? I’d be surprised if even 100 can.

    I'd like to confirm as another first-hand witness that all of that is happening: the toxicity is the process of destroying a guild that was regularly selling vMoL clears; I had a friend get so fed-up with the game and the community that he gave his PSN account away a month after getting his vMoL skin because he hated end-game PVE so much; and I keep getting regular updates on my Discord servers about how people prefer ARK: Survival Evolved because they find it less toxic than ESO.

    @ZOS_JessicaFolsom This is a problem that does not have to exist.
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
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    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • zyk
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    Umm, so it may interest you to know that the vMoL skin isn't locked behind a hardmode, and I still care about getting it very much, as do hundreds of others who pull their numbers, but don't have the right political connections.

    That's a good example, actually. When vMoL was actually super hard -- effectively hard mode -- before the incredible power creep that followed Thieves Guild, that skin had a lot of value. It was interesting because it was distinctive and exclusive. When a player had it, it usually meant something. Players who wore it, generally, could feel proud of their accomplishments.

    Now they're a dime a dozen. Yawn.

    I don't mind that an old skin is easy to get because of power creep, but don't make the new ones so trivial to get. If you want the highly visible reward given to the best players, become one of the best players.
  • waitwhat
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    zyk wrote: »
    waitwhat wrote: »
    Umm, so it may interest you to know that the vMoL skin isn't locked behind a hardmode, and I still care about getting it very much, as do hundreds of others who pull their numbers, but don't have the right political connections.

    That's a good example, actually. When vMoL was actually super hard -- effectively hard mode -- before the incredible power creep that followed Thieves Guild, that skin had a lot of value. It was interesting because it was distinctive and exclusive. When a player had it, it usually meant something. Players who wore it, generally, could feel proud of their accomplishments.

    Now they're a dime a dozen. Yawn.

    I don't mind that an old skin is easy to get because of power creep, but don't make the new ones so trivial to get. If you want the highly visible reward given to the best players, become one of the best players.

    @zyk

    You're completely wrong.

    1. It's not easy to get legitimately. I finally hit 37k today on a 6mil with hundings and war machine and the warrior, but my guilds that are doing progressions require 40k on a 6mil without any penetration.
    2. vMoL is plenty hard, it's just that the worst enemies in there are other people who don't take it seriously. Doesn't make it any less difficult.
    3. After over a year of progressions, that skin means a huge amount to me, and your callous disregard for how hard myself and others like me have to work annihilates any shred of credibility you could possibly have had.

    I get it, you have the skin, so you don't care, and you don't think it's hard. Leave your bubble and help out a few progressions. You'll see how wrong you are.
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
    Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
    Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
    Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
    Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.

    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • Tasear
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    All depends,

    Is the new trial mechs or dps race again? Cause I like hard content but only with playing with friends. Setting the bar on dps races ruind this.

    Did I miss something or are new sets boring? What are the incentives for doing hard content? Let's look at trial sets though? Are they worth the effort? I think I am fine with people having skins for hm competles but there has be balance. Trial sets should at least be marginally useful and powerful.

    Is master resto greater then monster helms sentiental that gives 4k stamina to all allies in it's radius?

    How many useful trial sets exist?
  • zyk
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    I get it, you have the skin, so you don't care, and you don't think it's hard. Leave your bubble and help out a few progressions. You'll see how wrong you are.
    Actually, I don't. I stopped raiding in ESO years ago because it's been marginalized by players constantly demanding to make the game easier.

    Furthermore, I don't care about vanity. That ESO has become The Elder Sims Online is a bad thing to me. Rawl feels more like a cosplay convention than a town in an RPG these days.

    Regardless, I think the players who take the time to master the game should have amazing rewards and more/better content. But instead, all raid content is now ezmode by default with an unimaginative hard mode. ESO raiders deserve better.
    Edited by zyk on April 17, 2018 12:12AM
  • Ch4mpTW
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    zyk wrote: »
    waitwhat wrote: »
    Umm, so it may interest you to know that the vMoL skin isn't locked behind a hardmode, and I still care about getting it very much, as do hundreds of others who pull their numbers, but don't have the right political connections.

    That's a good example, actually. When vMoL was actually super hard -- effectively hard mode -- before the incredible power creep that followed Thieves Guild, that skin had a lot of value. It was interesting because it was distinctive and exclusive. When a player had it, it usually meant something. Players who wore it, generally, could feel proud of their accomplishments.

    Now they're a dime a dozen. Yawn.

    I don't mind that an old skin is easy to get because of power creep, but don't make the new ones so trivial to get. If you want the highly visible reward given to the best players, become one of the best players.

    Are you aware that again, this is supposed to be a game for everyone? I’m not saying that the content at hand needs to be a cakewalk everywhere, and that veteran trial bosses should be as easy as world bosses. No. I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is, this practice that ZOS has been going through with has in a sense caused to PvE end-game player base to in a sense begin to cannibalize. It’s literally eating it’s own, and nothing is growing back to fill the voids that are left in its remains.

    Yeah, it may be “cool” to see someone with something that is ”extremely unique; or rare”. However, when 99% of your population can’t complete the content, and relies on needing to have either: Political connections, and or a ton of gold to get carried by said tiny fraction of people to beat it? That’s a HUGE problem. A titanic problem. And it should be obvious as to why it is.

    [Edited for naming and shaming]

    This is why I too purchased that $150 Founder’s Pack on PSN for Tera, and have been spending so much of my time on it. Keep it up, ZOS. You’re doing really great.
    Edited by ZOS_JesC on April 17, 2018 1:12PM
  • Raz415
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    I was actually glad it was gated behind hard content.

    Being able to show prestige is good. You want it? WORK FOR IT!

    Can't say I see any reason to stop rewarding dedicated players just to make EVERYTHING accessibles to the masses. The masses have plenty of stuff to enjoy. A bit too much, imo.
    Edited by Raz415 on April 17, 2018 12:13AM
  • MaddPowered
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    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    You once again locked a trial skin behind a hard mode clear. Why? Why tf do you keep doing this? As is only a tiny fraction of your player base can beat VAS HM+2, which results in people selling skin runs. Something which ultimately should not exist in a game to begin with. And even after we told you about how we found this practice unhealthy to the game, you go and do it again!?

    Do you NOT have the data which shows how many can legitimately beat VAS+2 across all platforms? Why not give the skin to people who can beat it on veteran, like VMoL? Why this HM bs? Why!?

    And before all of the Top 1% come scrambling in to defend this crap, no. I don’t care what you have to say. More than the 1% of the PvE player base wants to be rewarded handsomely for dreading through these meat shield bosses, with cheesy mechanics and obnoxiously high HP. Smfh. Not everyone wants to pay someone for a skin clear (I’ve yet to pay for a carry, and never will). How as a developer do you even sit back comfortably with that? Do you not even see just how much the trial side of PvE is dying? And across all platforms? Or again, do you just not care?

    inb4 this thread gets locked for some vague reason, and I get yet another message and or email how I broke some obscure rule that was up to mods discretion. :|

    Dro-m'athra destroyer is a title locked behind a hard mode.. Why aren't you complaining about that? Same concept different cosmetic. Also.. Why don't you go out and be part of the "1%" and clear the content? vAS +2 For example is easier than vMoL HM... lol.
    World's First Planesbreaker
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    vMOL - Calamity (PC NA) - 174,680 - 9:42 Stonethorn
    vHOF - 4D (PC NA) - 232,362 - 14:11 Greymoor
    vAS - 4D (PC NA) - 117,014 - 2:41 Stonethorn
    vCR - Calamity (PC NA) - 136,091 - 3:45 Stonethorn
    vSS - 4D (PC NA) - 255,552 - 21:34 Greymoor
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  • waitwhat
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    zyk wrote: »
    waitwhat wrote: »
    I get it, you have the skin, so you don't care, and you don't think it's hard. Leave your bubble and help out a few progressions. You'll see how wrong you are.
    Actually, I don't. I stopped raiding in ESO years ago because it's been marginalized by players constantly demanding to make the game easier.

    Furthermore, I don't care about vanity. That ESO has become The Elder Sims Online is a bad thing to me. Rawl feels more like a cosplay convention than a town in an RPG these days.

    Regardless, I think the players who take the time to master the game should have amazing rewards and more/better content.

    Nothing you have said comports with reality.

    It simply not true that raiding has been marginalized by players demanding to make the game easier. Each DLC trial has been orders of magnitude more difficult than the last.

    You do care about vanity. You want a vanity item (a skin) to remain imbued with an inordinate amount of status while willfully denying the dysfunctional dynamic that preserves that status.

    And on par with willful denial, you're not actually advocating for mastery of the game to translate into amazing rewards, because as OP has clearly demonstrated, it isn't mastery that garners those rewards anymore: It's connections or gold.

    This kind of elitism is backfiring hard against mastery translating into better content because the toxicity and exclusivity of end game content means more people just pay gold for carries. In so doing, both the buyers, the sellers, and the people who provide cover for both, do more do marginalize end-game raiding than players demanding trial nerfs ever could.

    As a bonus, you do really care. You posted in this thread twice.
    Edited by waitwhat on April 17, 2018 12:18AM
    PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
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    "30s to eval"
    "Read the ******* lorebook."
  • Ohtimbar
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    I think it's stupid, and I'll never even bother attempting it. The truth is that a certain tiny segment of the player base must be made to feel special and superior and apparently zos is willing to play along. I don't care for their approach to dlc dungeons either, which is why I don't buy them.
    forever stuck in combat
  • beetleklee
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    I'm not sure what to think. Vet AS + 0 is pretty easy, though the last boss is a bit messy and long but not too difficult. I'd say on par with the Craglorns. Definitely not nearly as hard as vMoL or vHoF (the latter which I'm still working on my first clear of) which award skins for just veteran. I don't think +0 is skin worthy.

    From what I've seen of +2, it's a huge mess. Haven't even attempted it (I main melee DPS and working on getting better at magblade so I'm worthy of being taken to a +2 lol.) It feels hard for the sake of being hard, with AOEs up the wazoo. It's not challenging as in you gotta work as a team to do the mechanics correctly, like with the Twins in vMoL. Maybe if +2 were a better designed trial that was challenging BUT still completable with a good group, I would feel differently. So I can't really form an opinion with vAS. Maybe +1 would be ok for a skin?

    As for Cloudrest, I heard it's a lot better designed than AS so we'll see, I'll try it out this week on the PTS.

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  • wolfxspice
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    I'm pretty sure im not in the top 1% of players, i don't have any of the trial skins, but as some who worked for along time to attempt to get them, (eventually gave up) I understand the importance of having a goal, and having special things in this game for the best players to get. I did get the dungeon skin/personality, and playing with my friends and taking the time to learn the mechanics, was fun, and its nice to have something that not everyone get. their should be something for completing the most difficult content.
    I'm a casual now
  • Guarlet
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    Just reading this post made me rolls my eyes so hard. (And no, I personally am still quite far from completing Vet HMs, and don't have any of the trial skins.)

    So, there shouldn't be a cool reward for players who complete incredibly difficult content to work towards? OK.

    They deserve it for putting in the work.

    And this is just a cosmetic skin, man. How much madder would you be if it was an OP piece of equipment instead? Yeah, I thought so. It's fine as it is.
    Edited by Guarlet on April 17, 2018 1:12AM
    AKA The Goblinator, PC/EU
  • Anrose
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    When they were showing off the trial at Pax, pretty sure Finn, you know the the guy who made the trial, said “git gud”
  • drake88131
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    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    You once again locked a trial skin behind a hard mode clear. Why? Why tf do you keep doing this? As is only a tiny fraction of your player base can beat VAS HM+2, which results in people selling skin runs. Something which ultimately should not exist in a game to begin with. And even after we told you about how we found this practice unhealthy to the game, you go and do it again!?

    Do you NOT have the data which shows how many can legitimately beat VAS+2 across all platforms? Why not give the skin to people who can beat it on veteran, like VMoL? Why this HM bs? Why!?

    And before all of the Top 1% come scrambling in to defend this crap, no. I don’t care what you have to say. More than the 1% of the PvE player base wants to be rewarded handsomely for dreading through these meat shield bosses, with cheesy mechanics and obnoxiously high HP. Smfh. Not everyone wants to pay someone for a skin clear (I’ve yet to pay for a carry, and never will). How as a developer do you even sit back comfortably with that? Do you not even see just how much the trial side of PvE is dying? And across all platforms? Or again, do you just not care?

    inb4 this thread gets locked for some vague reason, and I get yet another message and or email how I broke some obscure rule that was up to mods discretion. :|


    I'm with you buddy. Sucks how a game that I play alone...in my basement...late at night requires me to have enough other friends that play at the same time and have the same skill as I do play with me to get an achievement I want. Tried climbing that social ladder and have been a part of an insane number of "core" groups only to find they all play 3 hours or so before I can. And they have no activity finder that could be useful to helping us out. It's just straight up a flat out poor design for the end game community. I'm a nice guy and I generally get along with the people in the guild's I joined but I can see many categorizing them as elitist jerks and they wouldn't be wrong. The toxicity involved with just trying to "complete" the game is a bit nuts and inappropriate for sure
  • Abysswarrior45
    Abysswarrior45
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    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    You once again locked a trial skin behind a hard mode clear. Why? Why tf do you keep doing this? As is only a tiny fraction of your player base can beat VAS HM+2, which results in people selling skin runs. Something which ultimately should not exist in a game to begin with. And even after we told you about how we found this practice unhealthy to the game, you go and do it again!?

    Do you NOT have the data which shows how many can legitimately beat VAS+2 across all platforms? Why not give the skin to people who can beat it on veteran, like VMoL? Why this HM bs? Why!?

    And before all of the Top 1% come scrambling in to defend this crap, no. I don’t care what you have to say. More than the 1% of the PvE player base wants to be rewarded handsomely for dreading through these meat shield bosses, with cheesy mechanics and obnoxiously high HP. Smfh. Not everyone wants to pay someone for a skin clear (I’ve yet to pay for a carry, and never will). How as a developer do you even sit back comfortably with that? Do you not even see just how much the trial side of PvE is dying? And across all platforms? Or again, do you just not care?

    inb4 this thread gets locked for some vague reason, and I get yet another message and or email how I broke some obscure rule that was up to mods discretion. :|

    I like it. Its a git gud or don't situation and keeps the skin unique and out of the hands of most pugs and casual players or people who aren't invested in trials. Now if only they'd make it impossible to carry people....
  • rynth
    rynth
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    Ch4mpTW wrote: »
    kikkehs wrote: »
    to keep it special ?

    This is why ZOS is losing people to: WoW, Tera, Overwatch, Fortnite, and other games as of lately. MMO or not. And will continue to do so. It’s not even a matter of “omg the sky is falling”. It’s a matter of people getting fed up with the nonsense occurring time after time.

    There is no way that you can look at the current state of PvE, and assume that things are healthy. Leaderboards not being filled like they used to. Skin runs no longer being frowned upon, and becoming an acceptable means of acquiring completes. Trial guilds falling apart and disbanding. Elitism at an all time high. And so on.

    But again, to keep things special. Yeah...?

    they are losing people? and if they are it's because of this? Can you show me your facts and numbers and where you got the information from that they are losing people and if so it is because of this
    When asked what he would do for a Klondike bar. Grand Moff Tarkin said "why I would blow up Alderaan."
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