The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Why do some people hate HA?
nemesrichard
✭✭✭
First of all I don't play this game so long therefore I am aware I lack some knowledge on the game but what I experinced is not relevant to me being new.
As my main I chose MagPlar because I love paladin-like classes in mmos. I made my research about classes in general and I learnt that Templar is not the meta dps but has very good survivability. I didn't mind I thought I was going to be a healer when I learnt the game in end game group content.
I leveled my Templar mostly in dungeons and I noticed that my damage is quite bad compared to others but I thought they have sets and CP so thats why they do a lot better even if the game is scaled.
I got to 160 CP, collected the advised gear, read about MagPlar builds, tried them, learnt LA weaving yet in dungeons I made mediocre damage compared to others, only thing I was good for beaming the bosses. It became embarrasing to do dungeons with guild and friends I felt like a collectible pet in the group just running with the other but doing nothing important. I lost my wish to play with Templar any more and made sense the threads in forum complaing about Templar damage skills.
But then it occured to me that HA builds don't depend on classes they depend on sets so I gave it try. I collected the gear and went to try it first grinding CP in Verrant Morass and OMG I melted the mobs. Now when I go into dungeons I contribute to the group.
So my queston to those who despise HA build what should I do? Should I play with Templar skills and be a burden in groups or play HA and be the "bad" guy using a simple but effective build?
Edited by ZOS_Volpe on May 6, 2023 4:25PM As my main I chose MagPlar because I love paladin-like classes in mmos. I made my research about classes in general and I learnt that Templar is not the meta dps but has very good survivability. I didn't mind I thought I was going to be a healer when I learnt the game in end game group content.
I leveled my Templar mostly in dungeons and I noticed that my damage is quite bad compared to others but I thought they have sets and CP so thats why they do a lot better even if the game is scaled.
I got to 160 CP, collected the advised gear, read about MagPlar builds, tried them, learnt LA weaving yet in dungeons I made mediocre damage compared to others, only thing I was good for beaming the bosses. It became embarrasing to do dungeons with guild and friends I felt like a collectible pet in the group just running with the other but doing nothing important. I lost my wish to play with Templar any more and made sense the threads in forum complaing about Templar damage skills.
But then it occured to me that HA builds don't depend on classes they depend on sets so I gave it try. I collected the gear and went to try it first grinding CP in Verrant Morass and OMG I melted the mobs. Now when I go into dungeons I contribute to the group.
So my queston to those who despise HA build what should I do? Should I play with Templar skills and be a burden in groups or play HA and be the "bad" guy using a simple but effective build?
2
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Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭There is no player who has a problem. Who would complain that a dungeon can be cleared fast? You might be looking at PVP HA hate from the past. (HA builds some time ago in PVP was a huge problem, 1 hit on a person 33k dead. ZoS made empowered a PVE skill as the solution.). [snip] They need the solution to be in the next chapter. This is how a game is played. Older sets become tweaked to make the newer sets shine.
Talk to ZoS not the players. [snip]
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 30, 2023 6:44PM2 -
OsUfi✭✭✭✭✭I don't hate HA. I use it myself. I don't even think many people do hate HA builds.
I am frequently lumped into the "I hate HA" crowd on Reddit, Twitter, and YouTube as I feel it is somewhat overpowered for holding down one mouse button.
Something small. Something tiny. Like a 10% reduction in Empower damage and a tweak to Storm Masters. That fits.
But then shablam, "Os clearly HATES HA builds!!!!! RAWGLKFARLE!"
I honestly believe it's a tiny tiny tiny minority actually hate HA builds. But there's a heck of a lot of us that like them, or at least don't mind them, that feel they need a wee tweak. Then we all get lumped into the "I hate HA builds" category by the HA fanatics.
Arguing on the internet man, it's just plain daft and rarely representative of how most people feel on either end of any spectrum. Most folks couldn't give a monk.
23 -
nemesrichard✭✭✭Redguards_Revenge wrote: »There is no player who has a problem. Who would complain that a dungeon can be cleared fast?
Just browse the forum and you can see the threads where people want to nerf HA because they are too good or glad that it is gonna be nerfed next chapter.13 -
Jammy420✭✭✭✭✭
✭I dont hate ha, I just dont agree with something that takes less effort being as effective as near top tier builds, or well thought out off meta builds.
I will always believe firmly in practice makes perfect.25 -
ssewallb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Because they can out-parse mid-tier DPS and make 1 trial trifecta a lot easier.3 -
Redguards_Revenge✭✭✭✭nemesrichard wrote: »Redguards_Revenge wrote: »There is no player who has a problem. Who would complain that a dungeon can be cleared fast?
Just browse the forum and you can see the threads where people want to nerf HA because they are too good or glad that it is gonna be nerfed next chapter.
Those are the few pocket of people who haven't realized how the game works. For example, I don't use mythics in pvp. I know I will NEVER be the best. Besides, if I was the next set is just around the corner to shake things up. I'd rather just be decent than to be the best. I lose no sleep over being the best.1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭nemesrichard wrote: »Redguards_Revenge wrote: »There is no player who has a problem. Who would complain that a dungeon can be cleared fast?
Just browse the forum and you can see the threads where people want to nerf HA because they are too good or glad that it is gonna be nerfed next chapter.
Doesn't mean they hate it. Many of people agreeing with the nerf including me is playing HA setups and likes them . Fact that You are supporting nerf to something doesn't mean You hate that thing.15 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Do we really need another thread on HA builds. There are already a dozen of them floating around every forum category. Go read those.9 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Do we really need another thread on HA builds. There are already a dozen of them floating around every forum category. Go read those.
What is truly funny that this whole avalanche of threads started because of a minor nerf. We had changes that were turning game upside down, nerfs that were drastically cutting numbers or making some sets completly useless and these changes were discussed less than minor nerf to HA.12 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭Do we really need another thread on HA builds. There are already a dozen of them floating around every forum category. Go read those.
What is truly funny that this whole avalanche of threads started because of a minor nerf. We had changes that were turning game upside down, nerfs that were drastically cutting numbers or making some sets completly useless and these changes were discussed less than minor nerf to HA.
That’s not true. There were many people quitting and enraged at update 35 and that had many threads too.
We also had several disabled players or players with repetitive hand motion injuries post about this topic because targeting this accessible playstyle is extra meaningful to them over the run of the mill number jumbling we get every patch. This is the best they are going to get and they feel they are told they don’t deserve to be that good, already behind other top builds. It can be extra concerning it’s tied to “effort” where for some this is the amount of lesser clicking they can handle.Edited by AScarlato on April 30, 2023 1:41PM20 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭For on thing, it's a lot more nuanced than "people hate heavy attack builds".
No one hates the existence of a viable heavy attack build. Where things get sticky is heavy attack builds in group content, especially in a team that is geared towards improving.
Heavy attack builds have a high floor, and a medium ceiling. You can (and people do) clear just about anything in the game with them.... but it creates an imbalance, because to play at vet trial level, you still need 4-6 people in group that can't run a heavy attack build. You need 2 tanks and 2 healers doing some shenanigans, and you need a support dd or two to sacrifice their own dps while doing a LOT more work than the heavy attack players.
It really only works when everyone is on the same page and, crucially, already playing on the same skill level.
What people don't like is when players who can't or won't play a light attack build, or God forbid a support build, want to run content they would otherwise never be able to complete on a heavy attack build, does that make sense? And the harder the content is, the more effort the supports have to put in, but the amount of effort your average oakensorc puts in remains the same. It breeds resentment when not everyone is putting in equal effort towards the success of the groups, and the reason why doesn't matter.
The exception is vAS. People just like to clear vAS, and the effort the supports put in doesn't actually change regardless of what the DDs do, so heavy attack your way to an IR and people will be happy to help you do it.
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isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭Because some elite players feel threatened by a small minority of players who were able to exploit heavy attack builds to reach numbers that are not achievable by the average user who is either disabled / or a casual player who wants a more similar combat to Skyrim (I fall into both of these ) I hit currently 60k on a trial parse dummy and that works for me I can kill world bosses and do most dungeons ok.
Even tho 2 bar builds out perform and those who got High numbers with 1 bar were already experience high end 2 bar parsers. But here we are.11 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Do we really need another thread on HA builds. There are already a dozen of them floating around every forum category. Go read those.
What is truly funny that this whole avalanche of threads started because of a minor nerf. We had changes that were turning game upside down, nerfs that were drastically cutting numbers or making some sets completly useless and these changes were discussed less than minor nerf to HA.
That’s not true. There were many people quitting and enraged at update 35 and that had many threads too.
We also had several disabled players or players with repetitive hand motion injuries post about this topic because targeting this accessible playstyle is extra meaningful to them over the run of the mill number jumbling we get every patch. This is the best they are going to get and they feel they are told they don’t deserve to be that good, already behind other top builds. It can be extra concerning it’s tied to “effort” where for some this is the amount of lesser clicking they can handle.
Even update 35 changes were discussed less than this. Quiting and enraging have nothing to do with what I said. I was talking purely about the amount of threads popping up. During two weeks we had around 20 different threads all connected to this minor nerf.
Your comment have little to do with what I said. Once again there were patches that were more impactfull for whole game that were discussed less, that is all I had to say.Edited by Galeriano on April 30, 2023 1:51PM1 -
AScarlato✭✭✭✭✭Do we really need another thread on HA builds. There are already a dozen of them floating around every forum category. Go read those.
What is truly funny that this whole avalanche of threads started because of a minor nerf. We had changes that were turning game upside down, nerfs that were drastically cutting numbers or making some sets completly useless and these changes were discussed less than minor nerf to HA.
That’s not true. There were many people quitting and enraged at update 35 and that had many threads too.
We also had several disabled players or players with repetitive hand motion injuries post about this topic because targeting this accessible playstyle is extra meaningful to them over the run of the mill number jumbling we get every patch. This is the best they are going to get and they feel they are told they don’t deserve to be that good, already behind other top builds. It can be extra concerning it’s tied to “effort” where for some this is the amount of lesser clicking they can handle.
Even update 35 changes were discussed less than this. Quiting and enraging have nothing to do with what I said. I was talking purely about the amount of threads popping up.
Your comment have little to do with what I said. Once again there were patches that were more impactfull for whole game that were discussed less, that is all I had to say.
Were you around for update 35? It had more threads than this.
Edit: I guess not. Your account joined the forums two weeks ago. You can run a forum search and look for yourself.Edited by AScarlato on April 30, 2023 1:56PM13 -
HazierBlue✭✭Hate is a strong word, HA is just too powerful with little to no effort. Balance is needed.14
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isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭HazierBlue wrote: »Hate is a strong word, HA is just too powerful with little to no effort. Balance is needed.
And yet it still is far weaker and 2 bar out performs it.
Trial and dungeon mechanics are the hard part. Not the pew pew button mash. Not to mention heavy attack needs to really know mechanics and positioning as they have less time to dodge.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 30, 2023 3:24PM10 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »HazierBlue wrote: »Hate is a strong word, HA is just too powerful with little to no effort. Balance is needed.
And yet it still is far weaker and 2 bar out performs it.
Trial and dungeon mechanics are the hard part. Not the pew pew button mash. Not to mention heavy attack needs to really know mechanics and positioning as they have less time to dodge.
[snip]
If heavy attack builds are so weak, and light attack builds so easy, then why are heavy attack builds so popular?
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 30, 2023 3:25PM13 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »HazierBlue wrote: »Hate is a strong word, HA is just too powerful with little to no effort. Balance is needed.
And yet it still is far weaker and 2 bar out performs it.
Trial and dungeon mechanics are the hard part. Not the pew pew button mash. Not to mention heavy attack needs to really know mechanics and positioning as they have less time to dodge.
[snip]
If heavy attack builds are so weak, and light attack builds so easy, then why are heavy attack builds so popular?
Maybe because people want combat that isn’t like a shooter / button masher fighter and combat that feels more like a real elder scrolls game. Maybe people don’t find the weaving bug fun? Ever think people maybe play a game for fun, and don’t want this to be an esport. It’s an elder scrolls game not Fortnite.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 30, 2023 3:31PM15 -
LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭because they don't like that people are enjoying the game without the physically painful "effort" they think we should put in light attack weaving instead.
maybe not completely accurate but it seems close enough to all the heavy attack hate i've seenmiaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.10 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭With the buff to heavy attack builds, they're now part of the 'meta,' everyone running Oaken with Storm master and Sargents mail are playing a 'meta' build. The meta changes, it always does, so that one build doesn't drown out others. Players who are adopting that gear setup are becoming 'meta' players and are for the first time seeing the direct impact of changes, and as is shown in several videos, the nerf to empower barely impacts the outgoing damage those builds can do. Oaken builds are durable, with infinite sustain, while being fully ranged, and having their respectable damage being pure aoe as well. That is a lot for a single, easy to use build to offer.
Now, for my own curiosity I looked at the eso-logs website where people post data from their trial runs, and in particular I looked at vAS+2, a fight that involves a lot of range and is a pain as a healer to keep everyone both alive and buffed up in. 86 of the top 100 dps are sorc's, and every single one of them I looked at was wearing Oakensoul. Is that healthy for the game? Is it good for a single build to dominate so much?
This is what the meta gets balanced around, raw data shows these builds are powerful enough to drown out any other strategies, because if you aren't bringing a durable and self-sufficient build like an Oakensoul build into that place, you're basically making your healer cater only to you to give you buffs while everyone else just needs healing, so in situations like this the build becomes 'strongly encouraged' to the point that anything else is looked down on. A small nerf to empower, plus an overtuned nerf to a single set isn't as drastic as people are making it out to be, but anyone who tries to explain this is labeled a 'heavy attack hater,' despite the fact that nerfs this small are rare, and normally ZOS would have done much more.
https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/7#boss=23 Just in case people wanted to look for themselves. In short, the nerf was small, the gear change was overtuned, but the build still offers so much and is still just as easy to use. But, when people try to explain these points with actual data and are labeled as enemies to those enjoyed the build as is, that is where the conflict has come from. The meta changes, buffs and nerfs happen, acting as though your build should be immune to this despite this being how things have been done for years is the point where people would take issue, not with the kind of build you're bringing into content.Edited by CP5 on April 30, 2023 3:12PM20 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.
Thank you for your understanding.0 -
Ph1p✭✭✭✭✭"Why do some people hate HA?"
Because in a game with millions of players, there are always going to be extreme views one way or another. Question is: Do you really want to pay attention to this minority? Why care about the opinion of people who actually "despise" a build that works for you?
Other threads explain very well the more nuanced reasons why some people have concerns with Oakensoul builds and advocate for balancing changes. But that's not hate and most players won't have an issue with you in their group as long as you (more or less) pull your weight. Why focus on those few that are toxic even though you contribute?3 -
Ph1p✭✭✭✭✭
Why would a "hardcore" player, who clears vCR+3 in less than 3 minutes or who solo-tanks vSS HM while doing as much DPS as I could as a DD, be jealous of an HA build? I'm not an endgame achievement hunter myself, but the more hardcore players I know don't actually care much about Oakensoul builds. Sure, they might consider them a bit unbalanced and support limited nerfs to defensive bonuses or cleave damage, but that's far from jealousy or hate...nemesrichard wrote: »[snip]
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 30, 2023 4:03PM1 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »HazierBlue wrote: »Hate is a strong word, HA is just too powerful with little to no effort. Balance is needed.
And yet it still is far weaker and 2 bar out performs it.
Trial and dungeon mechanics are the hard part. Not the pew pew button mash. Not to mention heavy attack needs to really know mechanics and positioning as they have less time to dodge.
[snip]
If heavy attack builds are so weak, and light attack builds so easy, then why are heavy attack builds so popular?
Maybe because people want combat that isn’t like a shooter / button masher fighter and combat that feels more like a real elder scrolls game. Maybe people don’t find the weaving bug fun? Ever think people maybe play a game for fun, and don’t want this to be an esport. It’s an elder scrolls game not Fortnite.
[edited to remove quote]
I am specifically talking about vet trials, which is basically the only place people actually start to care what other people wear, in my experience.
I personally find vet trials a lot of fun, and I find oakensorc a lot of fun
But what I don't do is insist on bringing my oakensorc to trials. If I'm a fill, and the group seems chill, I'll ask if they mind an oaken sorc-- and if they say no its cool, I bring something else.
Oakensorc is EASY. It is. And the part you guys are missing is in an organized group not everyone can play the easy roles, and THAT is where the resentment comes in.
You still need supports, you still need dds in buff sets that don't translate well to a 1 bar build, and BECAUSE the ceiling for HA builds is lower than with a traditional build, you then get about half the team working harder for people who are not putting forth an equal amount of effort. If someone has a physical limitation and needs the accommodation of a HA build that's different, but in a regular team, that's a known issue and people are only too happy ro see that person succeed.
Where you get issues is when Player A is busting their butt to maximize their damage and contribution to the group and they see players B and C pressing on button the whole trial.
Player A gets annoyed with players B and C, and starts to feel like they don't actually care about the success of the group.and just want to "play how you want" regardless of the goals of the team.
Meanwhile, player D, who has severe arthritis, has gleefully seen a 20k increase in damage done and is doing better on mechanics than they ever have before and everyone is fine with that.22 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I would compare this to people who need a service dog vrs people who bring their cockapoo to the supermarket.
7 -
Soarora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You’re not the problem. People will apparently try to attack you in-game but don’t let them hurt you, do as you want. I will say though, don’t completely fall into the trap of “well I can melt things this way”. Everyone started out as a bad DPS. My second build did about 56k DPS. My first build very likely less than that. Now I do 100k. I’d suggest using your HA build for when you just want to get something done and your traditional build for when you want to practice. Templar is weaker than it used to be but it’s getting buffed again soon.
My problem is with the large amount of endgamers who have traditional builds but use HA out of laziness and then complain about their own build, and people restricting traditional builds from runs they should be welcome in (you don’t NEED ha oakensorc for vAS or for pledges or for a random dungeon). (If anyone is going to comment about how I should just avoid these people, don’t. I can’t. I’m trying, it isn’t working very well.) My problem is not with strangers just wanting to queue a random dungeon or do overland. Although it’s sad to see people instantly get good damage if they build their HA “correctly”, I’m glad people don’t have to feel like a burden with no escape except for “gitting gud” anymore.
Be free! Have fun! Good luck!Edited by Soarora on April 30, 2023 4:13PMPC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore- CP 2000+
- Warden Healer - Warden Brittleden - Sorc Tank
- Trials: 9/12 HMs - 3/8 Tris
- Dungeons: 30/30 HMs - 30/30 Tris
- All Veterans completed!
View my builds!
3 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »HazierBlue wrote: »Hate is a strong word, HA is just too powerful with little to no effort. Balance is needed.
And yet it still is far weaker and 2 bar out performs it.
Trial and dungeon mechanics are the hard part. Not the pew pew button mash. Not to mention heavy attack needs to really know mechanics and positioning as they have less time to dodge.
[snip]
If heavy attack builds are so weak, and light attack builds so easy, then why are heavy attack builds so popular?
Maybe because people want combat that isn’t like a shooter / button masher fighter and combat that feels more like a real elder scrolls game. Maybe people don’t find the weaving bug fun? Ever think people maybe play a game for fun, and don’t want this to be an esport. It’s an elder scrolls game not Fortnite.
[edited to remove quote]
I am specifically talking about vet trials, which is basically the only place people actually start to care what other people wear, in my experience.
I personally find vet trials a lot of fun, and I find oakensorc a lot of fun
But what I don't do is insist on bringing my oakensorc to trials. If I'm a fill, and the group seems chill, I'll ask if they mind an oaken sorc-- and if they say no its cool, I bring something else.
Oakensorc is EASY. It is. And the part you guys are missing is in an organized group not everyone can play the easy roles, and THAT is where the resentment comes in.
You still need supports, you still need dds in buff sets that don't translate well to a 1 bar build, and BECAUSE the ceiling for HA builds is lower than with a traditional build, you then get about half the team working harder for people who are not putting forth an equal amount of effort. If someone has a physical limitation and needs the accommodation of a HA build that's different, but in a regular team, that's a known issue and people are only too happy ro see that person succeed.
Where you get issues is when Player A is busting their butt to maximize their damage and contribution to the group and they see players B and C pressing on button the whole trial.
Player A gets annoyed with players B and C, and starts to feel like they don't actually care about the success of the group.and just want to "play how you want" regardless of the goals of the team.
Meanwhile, player D, who has severe arthritis, has gleefully seen a 20k increase in damage done and is doing better on mechanics than they ever have before and everyone is fine with that.
I’d argue that HA style is harder when it comes to mechanics it’s very hard to block and dodge when you are doing a Channeled attack.
The mechanics are the hard part of trials and vet content. Weaving isn’t hard to do I can weave no problem and 2 bar builds can put perform 1 bar ha builds anyway. The problem is I can’t stand rhythm combat in an elder scrolls game it doesn’t fit. I don’t enjoy the combat so I don’t do it and it hurts my hand which already has issues.
However people are still
Surviving the mechanics, and dodging which is to a hard part. You can argue the buffs from oakensoul keep people more alive and that’s fine, I’ve even said keep the buffs to empower and nerf the survivability that would have been a better balance but they went the other direction.Edited by isadoraisacat on April 30, 2023 4:19PM1 -
FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭isadoraisacat wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »HazierBlue wrote: »Hate is a strong word, HA is just too powerful with little to no effort. Balance is needed.
And yet it still is far weaker and 2 bar out performs it.
Trial and dungeon mechanics are the hard part. Not the pew pew button mash. Not to mention heavy attack needs to really know mechanics and positioning as they have less time to dodge.
[snip]
If heavy attack builds are so weak, and light attack builds so easy, then why are heavy attack builds so popular?
Maybe because people want combat that isn’t like a shooter / button masher fighter and combat that feels more like a real elder scrolls game. Maybe people don’t find the weaving bug fun? Ever think people maybe play a game for fun, and don’t want this to be an esport. It’s an elder scrolls game not Fortnite.
[edited to remove quote]
I am specifically talking about vet trials, which is basically the only place people actually start to care what other people wear, in my experience.
I personally find vet trials a lot of fun, and I find oakensorc a lot of fun
But what I don't do is insist on bringing my oakensorc to trials. If I'm a fill, and the group seems chill, I'll ask if they mind an oaken sorc-- and if they say no its cool, I bring something else.
Oakensorc is EASY. It is. And the part you guys are missing is in an organized group not everyone can play the easy roles, and THAT is where the resentment comes in.
You still need supports, you still need dds in buff sets that don't translate well to a 1 bar build, and BECAUSE the ceiling for HA builds is lower than with a traditional build, you then get about half the team working harder for people who are not putting forth an equal amount of effort. If someone has a physical limitation and needs the accommodation of a HA build that's different, but in a regular team, that's a known issue and people are only too happy ro see that person succeed.
Where you get issues is when Player A is busting their butt to maximize their damage and contribution to the group and they see players B and C pressing on button the whole trial.
Player A gets annoyed with players B and C, and starts to feel like they don't actually care about the success of the group.and just want to "play how you want" regardless of the goals of the team.
Meanwhile, player D, who has severe arthritis, has gleefully seen a 20k increase in damage done and is doing better on mechanics than they ever have before and everyone is fine with that.
I’d argue that HA style is harder when it comes to mechanics it’s very hard to block and dodge when you are doing a Channeled attack.
The mechanics are the hard part of trials and vet content. Weaving isn’t hard to do I can weave no problem and 2 bar builds can put perform 1 bar ha builds anyway. The problem is I can’t stand rhythm combat in an elder scrolls game it doesn’t fit. I don’t enjoy the combat so I don’t do it and it hurts my hand which already has issues.
However people are still
Surviving the mechanics, and dodging which is to a hard part. You can argue the buffs from oakensoul keep people more alive and that’s fine, I’ve even said keep the buffs to empower and nerf the survivability that would have been a better balance but they went the other direction.
Do you not know you can cancel a heavy attack at any time?
As someone who plays both, there is no contest: HA is easier as a dd, by a large margin, regardless of the trial.16 -
isadoraisacat✭✭✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »HazierBlue wrote: »Hate is a strong word, HA is just too powerful with little to no effort. Balance is needed.
And yet it still is far weaker and 2 bar out performs it.
Trial and dungeon mechanics are the hard part. Not the pew pew button mash. Not to mention heavy attack needs to really know mechanics and positioning as they have less time to dodge.
[snip]
If heavy attack builds are so weak, and light attack builds so easy, then why are heavy attack builds so popular?
Maybe because people want combat that isn’t like a shooter / button masher fighter and combat that feels more like a real elder scrolls game. Maybe people don’t find the weaving bug fun? Ever think people maybe play a game for fun, and don’t want this to be an esport. It’s an elder scrolls game not Fortnite.
[edited to remove quote]
I am specifically talking about vet trials, which is basically the only place people actually start to care what other people wear, in my experience.
I personally find vet trials a lot of fun, and I find oakensorc a lot of fun
But what I don't do is insist on bringing my oakensorc to trials. If I'm a fill, and the group seems chill, I'll ask if they mind an oaken sorc-- and if they say no its cool, I bring something else.
Oakensorc is EASY. It is. And the part you guys are missing is in an organized group not everyone can play the easy roles, and THAT is where the resentment comes in.
You still need supports, you still need dds in buff sets that don't translate well to a 1 bar build, and BECAUSE the ceiling for HA builds is lower than with a traditional build, you then get about half the team working harder for people who are not putting forth an equal amount of effort. If someone has a physical limitation and needs the accommodation of a HA build that's different, but in a regular team, that's a known issue and people are only too happy ro see that person succeed.
Where you get issues is when Player A is busting their butt to maximize their damage and contribution to the group and they see players B and C pressing on button the whole trial.
Player A gets annoyed with players B and C, and starts to feel like they don't actually care about the success of the group.and just want to "play how you want" regardless of the goals of the team.
Meanwhile, player D, who has severe arthritis, has gleefully seen a 20k increase in damage done and is doing better on mechanics than they ever have before and everyone is fine with that.
I’d argue that HA style is harder when it comes to mechanics it’s very hard to block and dodge when you are doing a Channeled attack.
The mechanics are the hard part of trials and vet content. Weaving isn’t hard to do I can weave no problem and 2 bar builds can put perform 1 bar ha builds anyway. The problem is I can’t stand rhythm combat in an elder scrolls game it doesn’t fit. I don’t enjoy the combat so I don’t do it and it hurts my hand which already has issues.
However people are still
Surviving the mechanics, and dodging which is to a hard part. You can argue the buffs from oakensoul keep people more alive and that’s fine, I’ve even said keep the buffs to empower and nerf the survivability that would have been a better balance but they went the other direction.
Do you not know you can cancel a heavy attack at any time?
As someone who plays both, there is no contest: HA is easier as a dd, by a large margin, regardless of the trial.
Of course I know you cancel it at any time. But to take advantage of the plays style and it’s set up you need to do fully charged heavy attacks. It’s not easy to do when you are always dodging.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on April 30, 2023 5:47PM1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭isadoraisacat wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »HazierBlue wrote: »Hate is a strong word, HA is just too powerful with little to no effort. Balance is needed.
And yet it still is far weaker and 2 bar out performs it.
Trial and dungeon mechanics are the hard part. Not the pew pew button mash. Not to mention heavy attack needs to really know mechanics and positioning as they have less time to dodge.
[snip]
If heavy attack builds are so weak, and light attack builds so easy, then why are heavy attack builds so popular?
Maybe because people want combat that isn’t like a shooter / button masher fighter and combat that feels more like a real elder scrolls game. Maybe people don’t find the weaving bug fun? Ever think people maybe play a game for fun, and don’t want this to be an esport. It’s an elder scrolls game not Fortnite.
[edited to remove quote]
I am specifically talking about vet trials, which is basically the only place people actually start to care what other people wear, in my experience.
I personally find vet trials a lot of fun, and I find oakensorc a lot of fun
But what I don't do is insist on bringing my oakensorc to trials. If I'm a fill, and the group seems chill, I'll ask if they mind an oaken sorc-- and if they say no its cool, I bring something else.
Oakensorc is EASY. It is. And the part you guys are missing is in an organized group not everyone can play the easy roles, and THAT is where the resentment comes in.
You still need supports, you still need dds in buff sets that don't translate well to a 1 bar build, and BECAUSE the ceiling for HA builds is lower than with a traditional build, you then get about half the team working harder for people who are not putting forth an equal amount of effort. If someone has a physical limitation and needs the accommodation of a HA build that's different, but in a regular team, that's a known issue and people are only too happy ro see that person succeed.
Where you get issues is when Player A is busting their butt to maximize their damage and contribution to the group and they see players B and C pressing on button the whole trial.
Player A gets annoyed with players B and C, and starts to feel like they don't actually care about the success of the group.and just want to "play how you want" regardless of the goals of the team.
Meanwhile, player D, who has severe arthritis, has gleefully seen a 20k increase in damage done and is doing better on mechanics than they ever have before and everyone is fine with that.
I’d argue that HA style is harder when it comes to mechanics it’s very hard to block and dodge when you are doing a Channeled attack.
The mechanics are the hard part of trials and vet content. Weaving isn’t hard to do I can weave no problem and 2 bar builds can put perform 1 bar ha builds anyway. The problem is I can’t stand rhythm combat in an elder scrolls game it doesn’t fit. I don’t enjoy the combat so I don’t do it and it hurts my hand which already has issues.
However people are still
Surviving the mechanics, and dodging which is to a hard part. You can argue the buffs from oakensoul keep people more alive and that’s fine, I’ve even said keep the buffs to empower and nerf the survivability that would have been a better balance but they went the other direction.
Blocking or doding is the same wheter You are light or heavy attacking. You can do it whenever You need no matter the rotation because game gives these moves the highest priority.
HA style is easier by a big margin. You no longer need to monitor Your sustain and majority of buffs, You have way less DoTs running to reaply on time, You have over 2 seconds inbetween each ability use to make a decision what to use next, You have only one bar to monitor so no need to swap bars and You can rely less on group support. Amount of actions per minute drops down heavily which by default allows You to be more free to focus on other things in this case mechanics. Focusing on mechanics is the most important part in doing them so setup that allows You to focus more allows You to do mechanics easier.
Mechanics themselves are becoming easier also because oakensoul provides You with a hefty amount of defense so propely built You can reach stats close to those of tanks. Me personally I am reaching 32k HP and 28k resistances as one bar HA sorc in trials. You can sometimes completly ignore mechanics and just face tank them because many trials were designed around people with half of that defense. And because my magicka sustain is perfectly fine and now all damage scale from highest stats I've spent all atributes into stamina and I am using max stam+hp food resulting with high stamina pool which allows me to keep the same DPS as I would have as magicka based char but now I also have plenty of stamina to dodge and block when needed or even to use vigor as main heal.
Mechanics are not that hard if You can ignore them or when You need to put way less attention into Your rotation and sustain.
The real hard part about mechanics in ESO always was to perform them while keeping an eye on Your rotation. This is why so many people noticed such a big drops in DPS in real fights or they were dying so often. With heavily simplified rotation and noticably buffed defense mechanics are becoming simplier so it's logical move to keep in check the DPS of setup which allows for it.18