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Loading Sorcerer's Damage into a 6 second DOT that needs 100% uptime is a slap in the face
acastanza_ESO
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You took the already awful pets that we're forced to double bar, then moved all of their damage into a DOT that we're forced to micromanage by reapplying it every 6 seconds, but also have to be sure to let actually run out so that it delivers any damage itself from its explosion.
Reapply at 5 seconds? Damage loss? Reapply at 7 seconds? Huge damage loss.
I already hate being forced to run pets that take up slots on two bars and have to constantly be resummoned now you're forcing me to micromanage them too for them to even be half decent, but every non-pet option is orders of magnitude worse.
Please explain to me how this is "accessibility? Heck, or even fun. It isn't.
You've made sorcerer an unfun chore to play.
Edited by ZOS_Hadeostry on August 23, 2022 1:18AM Reapply at 5 seconds? Damage loss? Reapply at 7 seconds? Huge damage loss.
I already hate being forced to run pets that take up slots on two bars and have to constantly be resummoned now you're forcing me to micromanage them too for them to even be half decent, but every non-pet option is orders of magnitude worse.
Please explain to me how this is "accessibility? Heck, or even fun. It isn't.
You've made sorcerer an unfun chore to play.
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YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It is truly wildstyle that this skill didn't receive a duration increase to ~10 seconds at least.
Of course, it's also wildstyle that Sorcerers are getting completely shoe-horned into the pet style that many/most Sorcerers (including myself when I play one) profess to hate.
Definitely the antithesis of "play the way you want".32 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »It is truly wildstyle that this skill didn't receive a duration increase to ~10 seconds at least.
Of course, it's also wildstyle that Sorcerers are getting completely shoe-horned into the pet style that many/most Sorcerers (including myself when I play one) profess to hate.
Definitely the antithesis of "play the way you want".
I have taken to running vigor as my heal ....
Now? ___ meh, my sorc is a master crafter, I guess he lives in the crafting hall now, and will do so until the gods get over their constipation, and the universe is right again......
Auldwulfe
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MakeMeUhSamich✭✭✭✭✭Still waiting for my No-Pet MagSorc to be able to wear light armor & use staves for viable DPS.11 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Quethrosar wrote: »this about pvp ?
Not this time.
But I can make it about PVP if you want. There are multitudes of issues to complain about for PVP Sorcerer.17 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Here is the interesting thing. Sorcerer has always been best played on a 6 count rotation, with Prey always on the one, at least since pets became meta. I have been playing sorc that way since about the time VHOF was released. So on the one hand, nothing has really changed for me. I am an above average player, i can parse 100k+ on multiple classes, and sorc is almost always where I start each patch.
That said, ZOS is doing their darndest to raise the floor and lower the ceiling, and sorc has always been one of the better classes to play in terms of breaking into end game. They have always had one of the easier rotations and can usually parse competitively, even if you didnt have perfect uptime on Prey.
Now we have come the other way. Not only is a 6 second rotation nearly mandatory, they also have a funky channeled spammable that creates its own issues with weaving and bar swapping. Sorcs are kind of a mess right now. I have more experience on them in both PVE and PVP than any other class, but I dont see myself playing one anytime soon. They are wildly underpowered in PVP against anybody that isnt a potato, and their rotation is more trouble than its worth in PVE. The fact that pets require two bar slots compounds the problem of using frags as a spammable, because you just dont have the bar space to run a traditional spammable like FP or Ele weapon, and use frags just for the procs (which is how I prefer sorc)
Channeled spammables are the freaking worst. They certainly dont help the floor. Other than maybe Sweeps/Jabs, delete them all!Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on August 22, 2022 8:03PM16 -
joseayalac✭✭✭✭✭Yes, I thought Sorcs were supposed to be destruction magic wielders that also happen to know how to summon pets from Oblivion. But this direction makes them feel almost like a Ranger in the sense that their playstyle and concept are shoe-horned towards pets only.3 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭joseayalac wrote: »Yes, I thought Sorcs were supposed to be destruction magic wielders that also happen to know how to summon pets from Oblivion. But this direction makes them feel almost like a Ranger in the sense that their playstyle and concept are shoe-horned towards pets only.
Unfortunately, its been a long time since sorcs were competitive as a PVE DPS without a pet, and even way back then, they were low on the pecking order.
Last time I played mag sorc without a pet in a competitive PVE environment was during our original VMOL HM progression. I pulled way more damage on my DK at that point, but I was in charge of running first back room and kiting meteors, so I needed a ranged spec. Backroom (especially the first one) during HM progressions were absolutely crucial to getting good pulls in. Our team ran two sorcs on first back room so we could use our overload bars with skills like streak for hopping the gap (cant do that anymore) and overload for eaisly taking at the adds. It really was the easiest way to backroom, back when that was actually a difficult task. And since I was also kiting, a ranged class was nice, but OP DPS they were not.
About a year after VMOL released, clearing vet was still a tall task, and only a handful of raid groups had HMs. About that time, Lighting staff heavy attack pet rotations became a thing. Typically, it was just the familiar and not the twilight, but it was a very easy rotation that pulled a TON of damage. All of a sudden, we had groups with 8 sorc DPS clearing VMOL HM. We really haven't seen no pet sorcs since. They have certainly ebbed and flowed in terms of their power, but you have pretty much always needed a pet since VHOF or so.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on August 22, 2022 7:54PM0 -
KlauthWarthog✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It would be kinda fine if it was an actual DoT, instead of delayed damage.
As it currently is, if you recast early, well, it deals no damage. If it was a DoT, recasting early would mean only losing a tick or two, so you´d still deal most of the damage.
... so, yes, tying the sorcerer´s damage to such a clunky skill is, indeed, a metaphorical slap in the face.3 -
Elendir2am✭✭✭✭We are extending the duration of DoTs and buffs to simplify rotation.
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Except for this one skill, we will shorten its duration. Why? Because we want.3 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Elendir2am wrote: »We are extending the duration of DoTs and buffs to simplify rotation.
...
...
...
Except for this one skill, we will shorten its duration. Why? Because we want.
They didn't shorten the duration. What do you mean?PC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit2 -
BronzeCaiman✭✭✭Its similar to Blastbones and Shalks in its current state, so I personally think its fine where it is.0 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tormentor does 33% less damage. This means it deals 67% of the damage it used to deal. If you add 45% additional damage on top of its new damage value, it deals 3% less damage than the tormentor dealt without any buffs at all before the update. I saw a 30% damage reduction on my stam sorc this patch, and it's built for this patch.2 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »It is truly wildstyle that this skill didn't receive a duration increase to ~10 seconds at least.
Of course, it's also wildstyle that Sorcerers are getting completely shoe-horned into the pet style that many/most Sorcerers (including myself when I play one) profess to hate.
Definitely the antithesis of "play the way you want".
Whats funny is this was originally just a mag sorc problem, they rightfully complained about their playstyle being removed in favour of double pet sorc for years and still, no answer to that issue to this day. Only magnified.
Now with hybridization, stam sorc's are in the same boat. I was all for making Clanfear a usable pet for stam sorc a few years ago because it delt physical damage, but hybridization and this patch took it too far..
They've done everything they can to strip away power from Hurricane, Bound Armaments and Crystal Weapon.. then they go ahead and nerf the base values of pets, including Storm Atro. So they take a look at Sorc's dummy DPS and go "Oh damn, Sorc's are way behind on the DPS totem pole, how can we give them more power yet continue to stick to our spreadsheets?"
Answer: Daedric Prey. They over buff it so much to compensate for a lack of base DPS that it's now the only way to play Stam or Mag viably in PVE.
Good luck making anything else work now. To top it off, we're the only class where our damage is only comparable in endgame from 1 target at a time due to Daedric Prey. The class with the worst cleave, just got even worse because our good DPS only applies to enemies with curse.Edited by MashmalloMan on August 22, 2022 10:12PMPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit12 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Elendir2am wrote: »We are extending the duration of DoTs and buffs to simplify rotation.
...
...
...
Except for this one skill, we will shorten its duration. Why? Because we want.
daedric curse is not a DoT, so it wouldnt be affected by that
the double burst one i like better, but if your running pets you would need to use the curse to get the most out of the pets0 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭All classes will become
Dots -> Spammable -> Gimmick class ability.
BB/Shalks/POTL/Prey etc. Its the downfall of the ESO combat systems honestly. While other games can control a players non-dot abilities used with Cooldowns here in ESO there really isn't such a thing. So they add gimmick abilities instead to simulate CD's.
Its why people are really liking FF14 combat. It can be very flexible with a tons of classes without feeling bland of cloned.Edited by karekiz on August 22, 2022 11:14PM1 -
ZOS_HadeostrymodGreetings,
After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.
Thank you for your understanding1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Here is the interesting thing. Sorcerer has always been best played on a 6 count rotation, with Prey always on the one, at least since pets became meta. I have been playing sorc that way since about the time VHOF was released. So on the one hand, nothing has really changed for me. I am an above average player, i can parse 100k+ on multiple classes, and sorc is almost always where I start each patch.
That said, ZOS is doing their darndest to raise the floor and lower the ceiling, and sorc has always been one of the better classes to play in terms of breaking into end game. They have always had one of the easier rotations and can usually parse competitively, even if you didnt have perfect uptime on Prey.
Now we have come the other way. Not only is a 6 second rotation nearly mandatory, they also have a funky channeled spammable that creates its own issues with weaving and bar swapping. Sorcs are kind of a mess right now. I have more experience on them in both PVE and PVP than any other class, but I dont see myself playing one anytime soon. They are wildly underpowered in PVP against anybody that isnt a potato, and their rotation is more trouble than its worth in PVE. The fact that pets require two bar slots compounds the problem of using frags as a spammable, because you just dont have the bar space to run a traditional spammable like FP or Ele weapon, and use frags just for the procs (which is how I prefer sorc)
Channeled spammables are the freaking worst. They certainly dont help the floor. Other than maybe Sweeps/Jabs, delete them all!
This, so much this. My sorc is back to being a crafter again after finally finding some semblence of viability in U33 and being at least playable in U34.
U36 is going to have to be a huge rework (see fix) of the entire class kit. Although, with their known hatred of the class, I wouldn't be surprised if zos decides to nerfs sorcs for crafting too next update....5 -
Dr_Con✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭channeled spammables that can be dodged create issues, especially when there's add-ons that tell you when to dodge. I personally feel this is cheating, I should see the thing coming at me if I am to dodge, but a pro pvper will just say that there's stacking penalties for roll dodging in quick succesion and to spam more. Legit saw a dude dodge 8 crystal fragments in a battleground in a row without looking at me once (yes, in non-CP gameplay). it's excessive.Edited by Dr_Con on August 23, 2022 7:52AM3 -
Elendir2am✭✭✭✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »
daedric curse is not a DoT, so it wouldnt be affected by that
the double burst one i like better, but if your running pets you would need to use the curse to get the most out of the pets
I know that it is delayed DMG. I raid with it for several years now. I will not have problem with keeping it uptime, because it has had fix position on my front bar for that time.
Yet it is change, which go against all reasoning ZOS gave us around U35, and changes they implemented with it.
They increased on essential level importance of debuff, it provides at same time.3 -
Pelanora✭✭✭✭✭So many important threads on the sorc issue, fading into the pages of the forum.
What hope does this class actually have. It's so depressing.2 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭Ok, as a joke, I made a Redguard Sorcerer, focused on Stamina, no pet, using the self version of Vigor as my heal.
For spells, I took the Haunting Curse (not the pet focused version), Crystal Shards, and for lightning, I am using the ultimate
Weapons are a great sword, Stampede, and Cleave .....
And at level 28, it is so out performing my Breton magicka based sorcerer with pets and staves, and that guy is CP 780
I, finally, activated my CP points on the Redguard guy, and he is soloing material I NEED help with on my Magicka based guy.
Both have ONLY crafted armor sets, and identical ones ---- I switched them to the same to be sure it wasn't gear.
So, Law of Julianos 5 pieces, Hunding's Rage 5 pieces, and Dragon's Appetite 2 pieces .... a bit different than I normally use for the Magicka guy, but I wanted an equal playing field.
On stats, I did all Magicka for the Breton, and all Stamina for the Redguard ..... again, solid focus to keep them comparing, each in their own arena.
Did the EXACT same delves and dungeons with both .....
The Stamina based stamped sorcerer is tearing everything apart, fast.. while my magicka guy has to play the wear down game ..... and it's so obvious a difference that even a friend who is incredibly new noted that the magic in this game seems to suck, next to just stomping your way through.....
I, also, built a new Templar, didn't bother with jabs at all -- tosses the unblockable javelin, instead.
And yeah, duel wield for the win.... I focus on weapon skills, and some fighting guild stuff, and am tearing through things my other templar has to plan and carefully manage in a fight.
I am also seeing my crit based characters lagging a bit behind my weapon skill guys, so am wondering if they stealth "patched" a crit cap in there......
Not sure it the intention was to force unorthodox style as the new norm..... but it does seem to be the way things are working now.
AuldwulfeEdited by Auldwulfe on September 6, 2022 4:55PM3 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ok, as a joke, I made a Redguard Sorcerer, focused on Stamina, no pet, using the self version of Vigor as my heal.
For spells, I took the Haunting Curse (not the pet focused version), Crystal Shards, and for lightning, I am using the ultimate
Weapons are a great sword, Stampede, and Cleave .....
And at level 28, it is so out performing my Breton magicka based sorcerer with pets and staves, and that guy is CP 780
I, finally, activated my CP points on the Redguard guy, and he is soloing material I NEED help with on my Magicka based guy.
Both have ONLY crafted armor sets, and identical ones ---- I switched them to the same to be sure it wasn't gear.
So, Law of Julianos 5 pieces, Hunding's Rage 5 pieces, and Dragon's Appetite 2 pieces .... a bit different than I normally use for the Magicka guy, but I wanted an equal playing field.
On stats, I did all Magicka for the Breton, and all Stamina for the Redguard ..... again, solid focus to keep them comparing, each in their own arena.
Did the EXACT same delves and dungeons with both .....
The Stamina based stamped sorcerer is tearing everything apart, fast.. while my magicka guy has to play the wear down game ..... and it's so obvious a difference that even a friend who is incredibly new noted that the magic in this game seems to suck, next to just stomping your way through.....
I, also, built a new Templar, didn't bother with jabs at all -- tosses the unblockable javelin, instead.
And yeah, duel wield for the win.... I focus on weapon skills, and some fighting guild stuff, and am tearing through things my other templar has to plan and carefully manage in a fight.
I am also seeing my crit based characters lagging a bit behind my weapon skill guys, so am wondering if they stealth "patched" a crit cap in there......
Not sure it the intention was to force unorthodox style as the new norm..... but it does seem to be the way things are working now.
Auldwulfe
Fun story i guess, but not relevant at all to any discussion of balance. Overland PVE content is absurdly easy. Any class can breeze through overland. Delves are just overland with a roof over your head, so they are pretty much useless as well for balance discussions..
Any discussion about PVE class/spec balance outside of Vet HMs is meaningless.
Also, there was nothing stealth about the crit damage cap that was added. Crit is still king in PVE in any fight that actually matters.1 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭Well, I also work a job, so I don't have endless hours to play a game -- and I wasn't done yet.
I now took both into Maelstrom Arena -- and yes, the Redguard is now 30 --- I haven't recrafted the armor yet, meaning that he is at a slight disadvantage versus the magicka ... but is still getting further into Maelstrom than the magicka guy does ... and faster.
The point, as that using the skill with the 6 second dot does NOT help, as they have nerfed the Magicka Sorc into the ground to a level that means that even if you CAN keep it up the 6 seconds, and constantly run around, letting your pets do damage... it may not be enough counter. It is MORE than a slap in the face, it's a kick to the gut, with repeated kicks once you are down.
I think I may try Morkuldin's and a few other pet armors, and see if having your own entourage changes things much..... but the point of my discussion is that even with a 45% increase on that one skill.... one you have to almost spam ..... you are still struggling against a stamina build.
And, that similar to the Warden now needing an ice staff in hand just to get full use of one of their skills.... that it is seeming more and more that we are heading into "gimmick" version classes.... you either slot the approved gimmick powers, or you don't play the class.
Auldwulfe
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malistorr✭✭✭✭I won't even consider sorc in PVP anymore unless I'm just quickly getting to tier 1 for the transmute crystals that month. The skills are just too wonky and hard to cast/difficult to aim and the disadvantages far outweigh any advantages. Nevermind that you can get better stats wtih duel-wielding vs. staves. My mag sorc is a heavy-attacker with a lightning staff for PVE dungeons. With Oakensoul giving empower and a lightning staff (shock glyph/charged) providing concussion/off balance with Elemental Blockade my DPS is probably buffed by the recent changes in U35. Other than that it's my crafter and only for PVE. I only use my nightblade for PVP now. I won't even use my magplar anymore as I feel I can't do as enough damage.
I have only ever completed normal/vet Maelstrom on my mag sorc using heavy attacks from a lightning staff and no pets. Most recently my gear was Undaunted Infiltrator and Noble Duelist Silks with a Maelstrom lightning staff back-barred to get that extra heavy attack damage buff from Elemental Blockade/concussion/off-balance. With the changes to the Maelstrom staff where it doesn't buff HA damage any longer I'm going Oakensoul for Empower, the same 2-sets, and maybe a 1-piece monster set for more crit. chance or pen. I never have to worry about sustain as I do almost all heavy attacks and all my CP and gear is designed to buff it. So this at least is 1-way to play mag sorc and pass just about any content without LA weaving, even if it is not elite DPS. I can pass vet Maelstrom so I don't care about the meta.Edited by malistorr on September 7, 2022 9:02PM2
