Zenimax, please lend your writers to Bethesda.

Anhedonie · August 2022

Considering how Starfield is approaching its release, Bethesda will soon start working on TES6. And we all know how bad writing was in Skyrim.
But you guys have some really good writers. I've played up till Greymoor and writing was consistently the highlight of my experience with the game. I don't know what happened after though, Greymoor chapter was awfully written and I don't know if it got better after that, but that's beside the point.

You know how back when EA made Mass Effect Andromeda they asked Need for Speed team to help with mako controls and in the end driving ended up being the only good thing about that game. Please, lend your writers to Bethesda. I really want TES6 to have something good in it as well.

Parasaurolophus · August 2022

Anhedonie wrote: »

Considering how Starfield is approaching its release, Bethesda will soon start working on TES6. And we all know how bad writing was in Skyrim.
But you guys have some really good writers. I've played up till Greymoor and writing was consistently the highlight of my experience with the game. I don't know what happened after though, Greymoor chapter was awfully written and I don't know if it got better after that, but that's beside the point.

You know how back when EA made Mass Effect Andromeda they asked Need for Speed team to help with mako controls and in the end driving ended up being the only good thing about that game. Please, lend your writers to Bethesda. I really want TES6 to have something good in it as well.

I don't agree with Skyrim. Yes, the games of the tes series are not distinguished by the most grandiose plot, but they always stand out with the best lore.

INM · August 2022

Unfortunately, writing of the last 3 years in ESO was completely awful, looks like they've changed writers and i don't want to see them in TES6.

SydneyGrey · August 2022

ESO needs to lend its writers to FFXIV.

I always thought ESO had good writers.

TheGreatBlackBear · August 2022

SydneyGrey wrote: »

ESO needs to lend its writers to FFXIV.

I always thought ESO had good writers.

@SydneyGrey enjoy sleeping on the streets after the angry mob of Yoishi P simps burn down your house. Grab any valuables now.

colossalvoids · August 2022

Being disappointed by Skyrim's writing is fine for it's time, but after eso's post Summerset writing it looks pretty good in comparison. Especially after Blackwood, which was the lowest point probably as didn't purchased HI this year to compare.

Danikat · August 2022

I thought at least some of the team was the same? My understanding is there's some people whose job is basically to write for The Elder Scrolls generally and they work with ZOS, Bethesda or any other Zenimax subsidiary or 3rd party who is making something Elder Scrolls related.

Anhedonie · August 2022

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

Considering how Starfield is approaching its release, Bethesda will soon start working on TES6. And we all know how bad writing was in Skyrim.
But you guys have some really good writers. I've played up till Greymoor and writing was consistently the highlight of my experience with the game. I don't know what happened after though, Greymoor chapter was awfully written and I don't know if it got better after that, but that's beside the point.

You know how back when EA made Mass Effect Andromeda they asked Need for Speed team to help with mako controls and in the end driving ended up being the only good thing about that game. Please, lend your writers to Bethesda. I really want TES6 to have something good in it as well.

I don't agree with Skyrim. Yes, the games of the tes series are not distinguished by the most grandiose plot, but they always stand out with the best lore.

Lore is not the same as writing.
Skyrim is not great at telling stories.

Kesstryl · August 2022

It's not the writing itself that's bad, I think the time constraints don't allow development and polish of the stories. I like the premise and themes of Greymoor and Blackwood, and had many enjoyable encounters with the characters, but the stories felt rushed and the delivery was not polished. A lot of it was like reading through a first or second draft that was never finished because the author needed to meet a deadline. There was no player flavor dialogue, and what we had made our characters extremely stupid ("What are we doing again?" questions and the like).

The bad thing about Greymoor was seeing the bad guy a million miles away as if players can't handle a good twist and need to have it smacked right into their noses. That and the lost princess trope being re-used (granted Svanna wasn't literally lost, but she was a little lost in her soul). I loved Fennorian though, he had a great character arc, and my one regret is not seeing him snarling and clawing at the point in the story where we hear about it. Being a character that grew through lack of confidence in his fighting abilities, it was a let down to not see him in action in the final battle and to only hear about it. Hell it would have been awesome to see him transform into a Vampire Lord, but maybe that's not within the scope of his powers yet. Markarth made up for the story though, and I really liked the conclusion.

I think the story in Blackwood was also good, but it was obvious who the lost ambitions were, so again, we are smacked with the obvious answer as if we can't handle plot without being shown a huge arrow towards it. I liked the characters though, and Lyranth made the whole thing interesting. I don't get all the hate about the Deadlands though because being a realm of Molag Bal, it's supposed to be all fire and brimstone. I liked the exploration into Dremora culture, and who doesn't love Arox? One of the Ambitions being a long lost princess was a really disappointing revelation though. We need to stop relying on lost princesses and nobility for our strong women roles. A strong woman could be someone born as a nobody who had a chance to rise up to glory through the help of the player.

I don't think the story ideas are bad, and I generally enjoyed them as someone who loves questing and RPing in my head. I just think the stories need more development, and writers need to give the mature 18+ audience that this game is meant for the benefit of the doubt that we experience complex story ideas like adults that know how to read and appreciate good literature.

Anhedonie · August 2022

Danikat wrote: »

I thought at least some of the team was the same? My understanding is there's some people whose job is basically to write for The Elder Scrolls generally and they work with ZOS, Bethesda or any other Zenimax subsidiary or 3rd party who is making something Elder Scrolls related.

There is one guy at Bethesda that is very infamous among TES fans for his...contributions, many people really want him out.
Besides, there is Rivenspire main zone quest, Orsinium main questline and Murkmire main zone questline.
Oblivion and Skyrim could only dream about telling such compelling, personal, full of drama stories. Although, gotta say Oblivion still has better writing than Skyrim. Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild, Mages Guild - all are miles better than anything Skyrim has to offer.

So there are definitely different people writing stories for mainline games and online spinoff.

ZOS_Kevin · August 2022

Danikat wrote: »

I thought at least some of the team was the same? My understanding is there's some people whose job is basically to write for The Elder Scrolls generally and they work with ZOS, Bethesda or any other Zenimax subsidiary or 3rd party who is making something Elder Scrolls related.

We do collaborate regarding making sure lore is accurate and consistent between studios (we don't want Greymoor lore to be inconsistent with Skyrim, for example) , but our writers are ZOS employees. They are not going off to write for other games. And various studios have their own writers.

ZOS_Kevin · August 2022

Also anyone trying to take our talented writers:

Anhedonie · August 2022

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I thought at least some of the team was the same? My understanding is there's some people whose job is basically to write for The Elder Scrolls generally and they work with ZOS, Bethesda or any other Zenimax subsidiary or 3rd party who is making something Elder Scrolls related.

We do collaborate regarding making sure lore is accurate and consistent between studios (we don't want Greymoor lore to be inconsistent with Skyrim, for example) , but our writers are ZOS employees. They are not going off to write for other games. And various studios have their own writers.

Pretty please?

FrancisCrawford · August 2022

What can one reasonably hope for in game writing?

Appealing characters.
A little character development.
A few plot twists.
A few plot points, twisty or otherwise, with emotional punch.
Humor.

And of course mysteries should be resolved and Chekov crossbows fired, or else good explanations given as to why not.

Quite a few quest lines and whole areas did well by those standards, earlier in ESO's existence. Ones I've repeatedly praised include:

Main quest
All of Rivenspire
Stros M'Kai main quest line
All of Daggerfall
Final Glenumbra skill point
First Stormhaven skill point
A lot of (unspecified) other DC quests
Anything with Razum-dar and/or Queen Ayrenn
Thieves Guild quests, unless you really hate thieving
Wrothgar and Clockwork City main quests, although they do get tedious at points
Summerset main quest line
Summerset side quests, until you get sick of the high elves' attitudes.

Also, quick humor in non-quest NPC dialogue has always been a thing, and has indeed seemed to hold up well recently even as other writing seemed to fall off.

Anhedonie · August 2022

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

What can one reasonably hope for in game writing?
Appealing characters.

A little character development.

A few plot twists.

A few plot points, twisty or otherwise, with emotional punch.

Humor.

And of course mysteries should be resolved and Chekov crossbows fired, or else good explanations given as to why not.

Quite a few quest lines and whole areas did well by those standards, earlier in ESO's existence. Ones I've repeatedly praised include:
Main quest

All of Rivenspire

Stros M'Kai main quest line

All of Daggerfall

Final Glenumbra skill point

First Stormhaven skill point

A lot of (unspecified) other DC quests

Anything with Razum-dar and/or Queen Ayrenn

Thieves Guild quests, unless you really hate thieving

Wrothgar and Clockwork City main quests, although they do get tedious at points

Summerset main quest line

Summerset side quests, until you get sick of the high elves' attitudes.

Also, quick humor in non-quest NPC dialogue has always been a thing, and has indeed seemed to hold up well recently even as other writing seemed to fall off.

Yeah, I agree.

As a side note, I don't like thieving, but can't deny that ESO has well written Thieves Guild quest line.
Also I remember some npcs were able to flirt with the player, that was pretty endearing.

Dark Brotherhood in ESO had very predictable quest line, but very enjoyable nonetheless.

tauriel01 · August 2022

INM wrote: »

Unfortunately, writing of the last 3 years in ESO was completely awful, looks like they've changed writers and i don't want to see them in TES6.

Damn, Y'all will complain about literally anything

Suddwrath · August 2022

SydneyGrey wrote: »

ESO needs to lend its writers to FFXIV.

I always thought ESO had good writers.

FluffyBird · August 2022

INM wrote: »

Unfortunately, writing of the last 3 years in ESO was completely awful, looks like they've changed writers and i don't want to see them in TES6.

This

fiender66 · August 2022

ESO still stands out for its plots and dialogues among MMO's, IMHO.

Sure, there are lapses in originality, especially in the starting quests that looks so similar with only settings changed, and this may hold true also for some recent DLC and chapters, but all in all the scripting work is good, often very good.

Gargath · August 2022

Anhedonie wrote: »

Considering how Starfield is approaching its release, Bethesda will soon start working on TES6. And we all know how bad writing was in Skyrim.
But you guys have some really good writers. I've played up till Greymoor and writing was consistently the highlight of my experience with the game. I don't know what happened after though, Greymoor chapter was awfully written and I don't know if it got better after that, but that's beside the point.

Comparing ESO base game with TesV Skyrim, imo Skyrim has much better writings (even better in native localisation) - basically much shorter and deeper, only the most important to read while questing.
In my opinion ESO has a tonne of unnecesary texts written for every quest, it usually forces me to click through most of them without reading. I feel that most of dialogue options, after the quest goes forward, gives lots of irrelevant information.
Some text lines we click without ability to choose, are simply dumb, like when some npc. states that "he is tired", and our next line to pick is "are you tired"? If he just told it, why asking him silly questions.

alanmatillab16_ESO · August 2022

I finally got round to completing Blackmoor, it seemed to me that the writers for the main quest were not the same ones as some of the side quests. I found the side quests to be far more interesting, funny and more importantly memorable than the main quest. That I found to be generic, predictable and simply "made by the numbers" though that could be because side quests can have different endings that dont affect the main story which has to follow on its rails to the pre-planned conclusion.

Ashryn · August 2022

I always enjoy the side quest stories as bit more.

Holycannoli · August 2022

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I don't agree with Skyrim. Yes, the games of the tes series are not distinguished by the most grandiose plot, but they always stand out with the best lore.

I beg to differ with Morrowind. The plot and the lore are top notch.

Dragonlord573 · August 2022

Please no. I don't want to end up asking what's an Argonian while playing as an Argonian in TES6.

K9002 · August 2022

Writing in ESO is atrocious from start to finish, it's a pants on head parody of TES and one big outlet for the wildest fanfictions, not so different from the TESlore subreddit. All it does for me is satiate morbid curiosity, it provides answers to the question - how badly can alleged fanboys subvert, warp and mangle TES? Sometimes the results are really funny. It's also compounded by the same exact problem that Star Wars has with the Old Republic era. Distant past in which everything was more advanced, magical and bombastic but somehow it became utterly forgotten and not a trace remains in the setting's original timeline. Just what happens when parasitic writers desperately want the brand recognition and refuse to create a proper spinoff.

From the design standpoint, ESO utterly misses the direction of real TES games, where the world itself is the biggest and most important character. Not quirky fanfic-grade NPCs. I like TES because it's mostly free of moronic interpersonal drama and writers' self-insert characters or their cool imaginary friends. A common complaint is that BGS writes characters who don't feel like real (modern) people. That's good for me, I don't need real people and their histrionics in my games, I get plenty of that in the meatspace. So I'm glad that ESO writers will not be injecting any of it into TES 6 and Kevin's clarification gives me some mental comfort. At the same time I'm looking forward to new chapters of contained ESO lunacy. There's still more Tamriel left to put through the skooma filter.

Wolf_Eye · August 2022

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Also anyone trying to take our talented writers:

*slides a cheesecake across the table as a bribe*

Actually, I do have a (somewhat) related question!

Who were the lead writers for Markarth and Rivenspire? (I found the credits for Greymoor on the website, but I am not sure if the same people who worked on Greymoor also worked on Markarth). I was just very curious, as I've always wanted to know who invented my fav characters.

I am guessing lead writers are the ones who did most of the dialogue writing in a zone right?

AzuraFan · August 2022

I think the writing in ESO is just fine. I haven't really seen any decline. The only thing I haven't liked in later chapters is all the filler. I've been playing through the base zones with an alt and the quest dialogues are to the point. Sure, you might have a question or two to ask to get some background, but exploring all the dialogue paths for an NPC doesn't mean standing there for 10 minutes listening to the guy give you a history lesson or the story of his life since he was 10 years old. In later chapters, it has felt like the filler is there to make the chapter feel longer.

But in terms of the dialogue and stories, ESO is great.

Call_of_Red_Mountain · August 2022

Anhedonie wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I thought at least some of the team was the same? My understanding is there's some people whose job is basically to write for The Elder Scrolls generally and they work with ZOS, Bethesda or any other Zenimax subsidiary or 3rd party who is making something Elder Scrolls related.

There is one guy at Bethesda that is very infamous among TES fans for his...contributions, many people really want him out.
Besides, there is Rivenspire main zone quest, Orsinium main questline and Murkmire main zone questline.
Oblivion and Skyrim could only dream about telling such compelling, personal, full of drama stories. Although, gotta say Oblivion still has better writing than Skyrim. Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild, Mages Guild - all are miles better than anything Skyrim has to offer.

So there are definitely different people writing stories for mainline games and online spinoff.

What are you talking about? Oblivion story was fantastic. And not just main quest. Side quests too.

In Skyrim I enjoyed dlcs.

In ESO it's only Morrowind-Clockwork City-Summerset. Murkmire and The Reach not bad too. Imo.

Northwold · August 2022

TES (and ESO) do adopt the ethos that the player can do whatever they like, whenever they like, and must always come out the hero.

That is not a criticism: that is the selling point that the main series explicitly staked out for itself and that Bethesda sells itself on.

I don't think Skyrim is going to win any writing prizes. The main quest is both beige and, at least the way I see it, actually pretty repugnant in that it (accidentally?) calls on the player to sympathise with xenophobic, ultra-nationalistic thugs. It is a story that feels like it was written on the back of a napkin to serve up gameplay hoops and came out very badly indeed.

But then the writing in ESO has its good and bad moments, too. When ESO does well, as in something like the Thieves Guild quest, it has approached writing from the very best story studios like CD Projekt Red. The characters have colour and personal motivations and the story follows them, rather than mangling the characters into the service of the wider plot, etc.

But when ESO does badly, as, unfortunately, I think it did with several of the year-long plots, eg Greymoor and Blackwood and the second part of Elsweyr (I haven't played High Isle), it has felt every bit as flaccidly-written as Skyrim, if not even worse. The characters have been paper-thin cyphers, unsympathetic and plain uninteresting, changing direction like weathervanes to suit the needs of the plot rather than the plot being built around their personalities.

But the basic point is, if you prioritise player wish fulfilment and flexibility, it doesn't really matter who's writing it: almost by definition gameplay has to take priority and story has to suffer to get there. And, yes, there are degrees of good and bad, but it is never going to be superlative (the only memorable quest line I can think of in the entire Elder Scrolls main series is Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood, although Oblivion did show more willingness in all its storytelling to tie down stakes and restrict player choice to enhance the stories than any other game in the main series).

TES, the main series, never made a secret about that. They have particular priorities as games and you can wish for them to have the best stories in the world, but you would have to sacrifice what TES stands for to get there. Think more enforced linearity, more time spent on long cut scenes and the like, less flexibility of choice and the possibility that the player can fail. You do not play Elder Scrolls games because you want literary art; you play them because you want to be God for a day.

mIstyKisshot · August 2022

I don't think eso is better than skyrim

FluffWit · August 2022

This games writing varies from slightly funny to really cringey to just plain bad.

I just did all of Ebonheart on a Nord. There was ONE line of Nord specific dialogue from an npc in 300 quests. ONE.