Misrepresenting to get a faster que.

KhajiitLivesMatter · September 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

You're literally why dps have to wait ages for another healer or tank, or the group fails and all that time is wasted. You only prove my point further.

On ANY of my 11 characters I would still move forward and clear the dungeon.

As the group is.

With a companion.

Slide myself over to "tank" and let another dps come in...to make it easier.

Hit up a guild asking for any dps to join.

Those who would wait are just...seriously?

You ever play dungeons at 12am-3am PST? I mean, if the group can we move forward. But on vMHK? Nah bruh, goodluck with that. I've been farming DLC dungeons lately. Waiting for a tank or dropping group are my only options since me (like many others you're ignoring) aren't very social or active in our guilds.
EDIT: Actually I've swapped to my tank characters if I wait more than 10 minutes. But I hate when I can't even play a full dungeon through as my dps (it's rare I get to play a dungeon on my dps because I can't wait an our for a queue to pop). Tanks drop because "this dungeon is too long" literally as soon as players spawn at the start.

I work 2 jobs and can play from 9pm to 12am weeknights, and I also am building up my own design and fabrication business when I have time, I don't have as much time to be as social as I used to when I basically breathed this game for 4 years straight. People have different lives, and I know I'm not the only one. Let's not guildless/friendless shame people.

so ur saying u dont have much time and still blame people who drop a dungon cause its to long and they dont have much time (or dont wanna spend so much time )

rly?

ZOS_FalcoYamaoka · September 2021

Greetings,

We are closing this thread as another thread of very similar nature is currently open for discussion. Please refer to the following: https://beth.games/3EZoFO4

newtinmpls · September 2021

Nogawd wrote: »

Slide myself over to "tank" and let another dps come in...to make it easier.

Hey, is this a thing? I ask because on general principles all my characters can "backup" either tank or healer (generally the stam ones know a taunt and a pull, and the magicka ones can backbar resto and most also have orbs from the Undaunted line)

Syrpynt · September 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

so ur saying u dont have much time and still blame people who drop a dungon cause its to long and they dont have much time (or dont wanna spend so much time )

rly?

Yeh, rly.

Just because I'm busy doesn't mean I can [snip] on others for my wants. I'm not selfish, and I really hope ZoS comes up with a solution to make everyone happy.

I support a client-side solo-version of group dungeons, but people are gonna pushback and be like "Awww u kiddin me?? I could have avoided people in an MMO for years if they did this sooner!" and have a hissyfit because things got BETTER later on as they updated the game. Things stay [snip] because people complain that others have it "way better now" and refuse to let positive change take away the exploits or excessive freedoms that were causing harm to the game's "social health."

Edit; Clarification below--

Continuing on with the Tank, Healer, DD buff and debuff's I mentioned earlier--
I also support making people stick to their roles. If a group doesn't want roles (bonuses buffs and debuffs), I think there should be a "no role" option that lets players make whatever formation they want (only not when queueing with DF with less than 4 players already grouped, it's unfair for the unsuspecting players getting tossed into someone's experimental run).

[edited for profanity bypass]

WraithShadow13 · November 2021

If they're not doing things about the people forcing every dungeon to be a speed run, then i doubt they're going to do anything about queueing as a role you aren't.

Larcomar · November 2021

Honestly, this comes up over and over. As ever, I think we really need to distinguish normals and vets here.

For norms, a full on tank is really unnecessary and a waste of a slot. If you've got 4 high level players, there just going to burn through it. If you've got low level players, you really need to do some damage - and ideally have a group heal - as tank because the rest of the team may not be able to do that much. I personally find a hybrid build with one bar focused on AOE damage to take down trash, and one bar defensive with snb for bosses works best, but quite honestly at this point, I wonder if the easiest thing would simply be to simply abolish roles for RNDs, and maybe move to having an experienced/fast and a newbie/slower queue, and just let DF stick the next 4 players together. Everyone gets groups quicker and no faking possible.

For vets, it's obv more of an issue. But the player base has the tools to deal with this itself. Maybe the vote to kick function needs to be streamlined - I find it often gets lost in combat - and as somone else said, having a reasons tag would be useful. But do we really need anything more than that? If people actually kicked fakers, Id guess they'd stop doing it. If they won't, then I think that's on us...

Daffen · November 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

...vDsa, i was on a healer, we had a good expierenced tank, and the dude and another of his friends on the same skill lvl - i explained them every small mechanic - and after 5 tanks and 13h they gave up quit the game and blamed me for it - and what did i get from that time

litterly nothing i wasted it cause i was kind to a random - why should i continue to waste my time by doing dlc dungoens normal or vet doesnt matter basicly alone not getting anything from it like it should be for a carry and maybe even getting blamed by randoms cause i dont wanna explain every mechanic of e.g. nWgt

Everyone gets blamed occasionally, and sometimes they are right. Sometimes they're not and you have to let it go. But it sounds like you let one experience make you bitter and vengeful. Either way, doesn't justify rushing a group activity to suit just YOUR needs. If you want to be selfish, solo the dungeon yourself.

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

and the few times i still did dlc dungoens like 1 time i farmed wgt withrandoms they are NORMALY increadibly annyoing - i did farm a specific item - 5 randoms got it - i asked them if i could buy it for 100k - 3 didnt awnser / 1 said no cause they need it for collection but dont wanna play it / 1 said no cause i have a addon which shows me their loot - like rly how am i supoust to know if they normaly not even write in chat....

Welcome to the grind. People are there for loot also, if you happen to need something someone else needs, it sucks but you move on and keep grinding. I spend weeks grinding the same place until someone is willing to trade. Just how it goes, and it doesn't justify being bitter about it.

And tbh, I wouldn't want to trade with someone who asks at the VERY end, that rushed me the entire way... But ya know, that's for you to figure out.

Back on point: Better balance and making players do the roles that they set, would work--and I thought about it more: There should be an "other" role-option for players to select in group menu, but you can only use dungeon finder with it, if you are already pregrouped. This way no one gets a buff/debuff. Dungeon finder without a full 4-player group would still default to the 2 dps, 1 heal, 1tank.

Also, good news for you--next update, everyone gets ported to the boss spawn room when fight starts.

Way to go man, you are also selfish. By not giving the rusher the item drops he needed from the dungeon, he will just queue for the dungeon again with the same fake role. This results in him "tormenting" another group by his speed. All normal dungeons can be done with 4 dps, when i queue as tank and get a "hard" dlc dungeon i might slot a taunt so that the boss stays on me. I dont queue for veteran dungeons that often, but when i do i queue as a healer or tank depending on if it is dlc or not. When i queue as healer i say 3 dd run, slot self heals and finnish dungeon no problem.

Yes, i have a tank char, but what is the point of queuing as a tank when the dps i get in my group do a total of 15k dps, it is a waste of my time. Yes i am selfish, and i dont care, ive wasted enough time in this game farming sets. (i play PvP and need to farm PvE to get sets for PvP, great design i know.) Beeing selfish for loot, doesnt mean solo the dungeon, sure i can do that but it is a waste of time to only get 1/4 of the drops possible, the fastest and most selfish way is to queue as tank and do it with 3 others.

The buffs and debuffs sound good on paper, but wouldnt help the situation at all. The problem is theres not enough tanks or healers because everyone likes playing dd. Giving tanks more tankiness and healers more heals doesnt give players the incentive to swap roles. The ones who are allready fake role, will stay fake role because 40kdps -10% is still more than 20k dps +10% (1 decent dd as fake tank, 2 bad dd as dps role). Good tanks dont use dungeon finder because of the majority of players have trash dps, and noone likes to waste their time. This results in almost noone queueing as a real tank or healer. Been there, done that, never again. (wasted 1 hour trying to clear an easy dungeon, instead of just playing fake tank and finnishing in 20 min).

newtinmpls · November 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

Tough love is not toxic

Elsonso wrote: »

Yeah, it pretty much is. Sorry.

Tough love is setting limits, including those with natural consequences (such as vote-kicking someone not doing their actual role).

For those people who have not experienced having limits put on them, it might certainly FEEL toxic. Often this is because they have essentially been insulated from much of how life works, often by money.

I work in mental health, and some folks use the term "Affluenza" to describe this unfortunate condition.

It is quite difficult to recover from.

Syrpynt wrote: »

Also, good news for you--next update, everyone gets ported to the boss spawn room when fight starts.

Oddly this doesn't seem to have been back-dated to older dungeons.

Yet.

etchedpixels · November 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

Then why are you using dungeon finder if you can form a tank brigade, for crystals? Dungeon finder with daily rewards is to promote the standard PUG formation style groups, and to play in a group that plays with a standard formation. Again, this is somewhat exploitative, and you can do it--but you shouldn't mind the penalties for your niche scenario so that the rest of PUG players suffer fake roles just so someone can bypass roles and still get crystals or "practice".

You are assuming you can change people to deal with toxic incentives. It doesn't work. You change the incentives to change the behaviour. A lot of the really toxic speedrunning and fakery started with the transmute change and there's a reason for that.

Change the transmute incentives to something that doesn't force bad mixers of player skills or promote speedrunning (like say one crystal per boss normal, two per boss vet any dungeon any way you run it with a daily cap). Now all the random farmers will want to do all the bosses, and the speedrunners or skilled players will go solo them.

Some people will still do randoms at high level and not play nice with others, some of them will still be fakes, some will still run off ignoring the group but it'll cut it down a lot and most of the group toxic folks will be soloing stuff where they'll be happy too.

buttaface · November 2021

Read some of the replies, same old stale rationalizations that always crop up among selfish fake queuers. Queue for role, do that role, simple. For the tank role that means taunts, aggro management, grouping trash where possible and debuffing. If you aren't doing those things you aren't a tank and should never queue as one into a PUG. Do whatever you like outside the group finder.

Moreover, tanks should tailor their gear and loadouts to the content they are doing. In normal, that means throwing in 10k+ dps into the team, which is far more useful than your 50k health and permablocking things that don't need blocking. So there is another side to this issue.

To the topic, any attempts to implement as some kind of TOS violation will never be implemented and would fail if they did. Such system would be trolled and hesaidshesaid to death, and I will guarantee that ZOS customer service would never allow being in an arbitrator role of such a provision, no way no how, won't happen.

Solutions? Relaxed leave timers. At some point early in any dungeon, the leave timer should disappear and people can then leave without penalty. Now with a leave timer that kicks in until the dungeon is complete, bad, dishonest players and their many antics that include all kinds of trolling, afking, faking, etc., can't hold players hostage. This would get rid of lot of poor, crappy play because one of the main enablers of bad PUG play is the bads know that the team will probably put up with their crap rather than sit through the timer. Relaxed timer? and suddenly lots of people start doing the role they signed up for. They will still rationalize and make up weak excuses for their bad PUG play of course, that's what bads do over and over on gaming forums and elsewhere.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · November 2021

This one can't count the many time qued as DPS and ended up being the healer because the one in the healer role....couldn't heal.

DrSlaughtr · November 2021

I tank for sweaty trial groups. When I run normal dungeons or non dlc vet dungeons I queue to tank on my magplar DD. Why? Because my time is valuable and I can do a better job with inner beast on a 26k health templar than most can on their 40k health dk.

Merlin13KAGL · November 2021

There needs to be a reporting/rating system for runs and kicks both. Add filters to your queue and you can be guaranteed to get a solid tank/healer/dps with a high enough experience score, provided you're willing to wait the extra time for it. The occasional troll rating wouldn't have much effect in the grand scheme.

Newer players/roles would be exempt until a certain number of runs took place.

The problem happens on the flip side. Fakes getting far into the negative, or with certain tags in the 'why' category would ultimately have to be investigated by staff in some way. This takes time and money they're not going to allocate anytime soon. (When was the last time you saw an actual gamemaster?)

If someone does well, you should be able to give them rep for it. If someone consistently does not, same. Someone flat out exploiting by fake roll without party consent should be warned, eventually having their account queue privileges removed on a permanent basis.

Play nice, the intended way, or don't play at all.

gariondavey · December 2021

I queue on a dps character but queue as tank/healer all the time...
...But on my mag dps characters I run burst heals and radiating regen back bar and never let anyone die,
and
On my stam characters I run ice staff or sword and board back bar with a taunt and never let anyone take agro from mobs, never die myself, or let anyone else die.
The majority of group content is manageable as all dps, just in PvP style set-ups, essentially.

katorga · December 2021

Syrpynt wrote: »

My solution for this would be useful in any content of the game:

When you select your "role" in the group menu, your character gets buffs and debuffs according to their roles:
Tank: +10% buff potency, +10% healing received potency, -10% damage potency.

Healer: +10% healing done potency, +10% buff potency, -10% damage potency.

Dps: +10% damage potency, -10% healing done potency,

This keeps people from faking roles, and could be applied similar to how "Battlespirit" is applied in status FX.

The 10% values can be increased to further gap the roles, and increasing dependency on the others. Of course, group content would need a rebalance also--but nothing too difficult for the ZoS team.

But you know, people who dislike this idea are probably the fakers. \o/

That is pretty clever. DPS should aslo get +10% damage taken. Otherwise 4 dps would be better in all cases.

ke.sardenb14_ESO · December 2021

Speaking as someone that has been a tank for 7 years, something that can kill your desire to tank, is tanking for randoms. A lot people don't realize that tanks(and healer) can only organize a fight and provide buffs/debuffs, it is up to the DPS to capitalize. And if they can't, you(the tank or healer) are just gonna be a hostage to terrible DPS for an hour(if you are lucky).

ke.sardenb14_ESO · December 2021

gariondavey wrote: »

I queue on a dps character but queue as tank/healer all the time...
...But on my mag dps characters I run burst heals and radiating regen back bar and never let anyone die,
and
On my stam characters I run ice staff or sword and board back bar with a taunt and never let anyone take agro from mobs, never die myself, or let anyone else die.
The majority of group content is manageable as all dps, just in PvP style set-ups, essentially.

I don't even do that, I run a standard stamina DPS set up(2h/DW), that I take into vet solo arenas. The only difference is that I slot inner beast which provides aggro and increased damage. I vigor when I need to, carve for a shield, and maintain 100% up time of spectral cloak for mitigation and aoes.