Selfish Sets

josiahva · May 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It’s not a matter of providing stats to one ally vs stats to yourself. Group-oriented sets benefit everyone, and increasing group DPS gets everyone through the content quicker and often easier.

“Selfish” sets are typically those that do nothing beneficial for anyone other than the user. It’s understandable if someone needs these to survive or sustain, but ideally they wouldn’t rely on it as they become more familiar with the content. For example Plague Doctor can give health to the tank, but if they can get away with Ebon then the group will likely have a smoother run (it’s not always about damage buffs).

When it comes to healer sets, there’s typically an expectation of sets like Spell Power Cure or Olorime. This is because it helps the group and themselves more than alternatives. The 430 Spell Power given by these sets outweighs “selfish” options like Julianos or Healer’s Habit even if they were solo, and providing a significant buff to the group makes it the obvious choice. Most healing proc sets also end up with lower healing output than just using a set that buffs themselves and others.

Another point that should be made is that “selfish sets” are not always helping the user perform their role better. It’s pretty common to see players using sets that are objectively weak just because they have a cool visual effect. They have every right to do so, but it’s understandable that those relying on them in groups would prefer they use better options. For example, I think it’s fair to call Ashen Grip a selfish set for a DPS to wear. It’s cool-looking, fun to use, but it’s such a poor DPS set that it ends up wasting the time of everyone else in the group.

The least selfish thing a DPS can do is build for maximum group damage (sometimes this means sets that buff other DPS too, like elemental catalyst, other times it’s individual sets like Siroria or Relequen).

This viewpoint, while accurate is also misleading.

For instance, if I have a choice between ONLY Plague Doctor or Ebon, as a tank I am going to chose Plague Doctor 95% of the time...not because I have anything against giving group members an extra 1200 health, but because 95% of the time, if a DPS is below 1200 health, they are dead anyway...therefore the group will get more benefit from a tank that take that extra bit of damage than a DPS who can, after all if a tank is doing their job, its them who has the vast majority of aggro.(To be clear I have no use at all for plague doctor these days aside from maybe one or two fights(comes in handy for Dranos in vCoS when you get DPS who don't interrupt the clones pinning you), just pointing out how garbage Ebon really is compared to virtually any other set you could equip).

More importantly though, you are looking at the entire idea of a group through the lens of end-game content where the only thing that matters is DPS. Yes, DPS absolutely does matter and you should push it as much as possible where needed. If you a pugging something like vCOAII its ridiculous and very much selfish to ask or expect anyone in the group to wear buff sets. Buff sets that buff the entire group are far more effective in a trial setting than they are in a dungeon setting. The tank wearing Yoln and Alkosh(assuming they hit 3k) in a trial is a HUGE ground DPS buff...but in some random dungeon pug? Unless you get extremely lucky and get 2 good DPS, those sets are virtually a waste.

The point the OP has is that when DPS expect the tank or healer to wear group buffing sets when they themselves would never consider wearing a set that helps the tank or healer is hypocritical and selfish. Case in point:

I pug vDSA in Craglorn with 3 mediocre DPS(fairly common). We get to the last boss, and I say, "ok, which one of you has a taunt for the boss?" the answer I get is silence...its rare a DPS even has a taunt unlocked, or are able to heal themselves well enough to hold the last boss there....but at the same time these same DPS are the ones who will yell at you for running an off-tank setup in vet Darkshade II because it drops their own personal DPS 5k (even if the overall group DPS is higher because you are putting out 20k).

I think the real problem here is a combination of the laser focus in this game on DPS above all else even in content it truly doesn't matter...combined with rigid role expectations, its really a problem stemming from the community more than anything else.

vFV before the nerfs is a good example for this as well. In particular the Centurion fight. This is a fight that group DPS simply does not(or rather did not) matter AT ALL. You could put out 2 billion DPS and the centurion would still do his thing. As a tank, for this fight my favored sets are Lord Warden, Imperium and....Kagrenac's Hope. It allowed me to rez people actually during the laser phase...very useful. I lost count of how many DPS just die like flies in this fight. They may have put out a lot of DPS, but unless they were really skilled they would still die all the time here. Why? Because they were all glass cannons and the shockwaves from the spheres just destroyed them(not much you could do about that, the group was forced to move together). Not once did I see a DPS say "hey, I should change gear to something with more resistance" even though THAT is what would have increased the chances of the group winning the fight. Chances are that most DPS don't even carry sets that will make them tankier. The reason being of course is that sets that would help you survive there hurt your DPS significantly. It shows just how focused on "moar DPS" people are. I find it hilarious(but unsurprising) that ZOS caved to those people and nerfed one of the few fights in the game that DPS didn't actually matter

JanTanhide · May 2021

Erelah wrote: »

I have heard the term selfish sets tossed around a lot recently. Typically, it comes from someone in a damage dealing role. It typically refers to other players who do not wear armor or use skills that makes the damage dealer be able to deal more damage.

Having played and still play all the roles this is selfish. If someone is tanking or healing, I do not expect they only use gear and skills that only benefits me. As we are a team, we all do our part to help each other. They do not exist to make me the most powerful damage dealer anymore than I exist to only do damage. I also raise if need be, interrupt mobs, and help with the mechanics, to prevent one person from being overwhelmed trying to do it all while I only focus on a rotation.

If a tank is wearing armor to keep them alive. I do not find it selfish I think the tank is making sure they perform their main function. Being a shield that I am not dying by staying up. If a healer is making sure we are not dying from things other than standing in red aoe I am generally happy. Do I like receiving shards? Sure, but not everyone is a templar. If they are wearing some armor sets to help them do their job I am happy.

My sentiments exactly. You will have quite a few DPS want the Tank and Healer to only wear what buffs them most. Heck with that. Dead Tanks and Healers don't help anyone. Wear what you want and enjoy the game. I never wear what anyone but me wants to wear.

My Tank My Gear. My Healer My Gear. My DPS My Gear. Simple as that.

JanTanhide · May 2021

Athan1 wrote: »

The concept of "selfish" sets is just promoting the propaganda of score-pushing/meta groups that want to dictate what you wear, what you slot, and what you do. Support roles (real tanks, real healers) are already selfless because they give up dps, the core essence of games, to keep the group alive, even at the expense of their own health. If Plague Doctor or Crafty Alfiq help you survive and/or heal the group, then go for it. If someone has an issue, it's probably their problem.

This! Agree.

mobicera · May 2021

The disconnect between players here is disheartening.
Attacking those that wear buff sets.
Attacking those that don't.

Honestly in pug dungeons it essentially doesn't matter what you wear so long as you fulfill the role.
However in vet trials especially hm the whole group has to be taken into consideration.
Everyone in the group should have the same goal and everyone wears sets and runs abilities that assist the group in achieving said goal.
You often find dps in ec, zens, etc, some groups still use ma in vas on magcro.
These sets will slightly lower personal dps however they will substantially buff the group dps.
This is part of optimization for the particular content being run and isn't there to alienate people, but to expedite the current goal, clearing.

If you're problem however is an inability to hit the required dps or inability to stay alive or heal in buff sets and you're simply taking your angst out on people who put in the effort then I frankly have nothing positive to say to you.

VaranisArano · May 2021

Ackwalan wrote: »

ForeverJenn wrote: »

I thought this way in the beginning, but no. I main healers and tanks. Support classes should wear support sets. If the tank is dying then he or the healer is doing something wrong. If the healer is not healing enough they aren't wearing a good support set, doesn't understand their rotation, or dps is taking too long and the tank is struggling. For example, It is selfish to wear Sanctuary as a healer, it isn't needed if you are good at healing and brings little to a group.

A healer just standing there healing is useless. They need to be keeping up buffs and debuffs so that dps doesn't run out of resources.

A tank just standing there blocking is also useless. They need to be buffing and debuffing and rounding up adds

They are called support roles for a reason.

Is this required in you normal casual content? No, but it breeds bad habits and leaves players clueless when trying to do harder content.

Who is calling them support rolls? Could it be the DD folks that want other players to wear gear for what they want.

Awkwardly, in one case, it's the Devs: "One of our mantras for ESO is "play the way you want," and in this case, it means any class can fulfill any role (tank, dps, support/healer).
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

They go on to talk about how the roles are more than just their immediately obvious job: "While all healers might have an objective of "prevent ally health from reaching zero," you can achieve this through several effect behaviors: direct heals, heal over time, damage shields, and damage reduction, to name a few...You can apply this same model of thought to damage and tanking abilities."

If we apply that model of thought to tanking, then we get something like "While all tanks might have an objective of "stay alive and hold aggro on the boss", you can achieve this different ways."

Some people choose to achieve it through sheer defense or self-healing sets that benefit them only. This approach works pretty well in dungeons and with random groups, where often the best thing the tank can do for the group is to simply stay alive, hold aggro, and don't screw up the run. Everything extra is gravy on top. If the extras are getting in the way of the tank's main objective, then the tank needs to cut back and focus more on staying alive/holding aggro.

Some people choose to achieve it by wearing group support sets that boost group DPS, because the faster the boss dies, the better it is for the group. This approach works very well in trials
For players who can manage their main objective and support the group, it works very well in dungeons too! Indeed, everyone managing the basics of a given role plus the extra group support is pretty much how you progess to harder content as a group.

But no, it's not a conspiracy of DDs calling tanks and healers "support roles" to get them to wear support sets. Tanks and healers who go beyond the bare minimum are de facto playing support roles with group buffs and boss debuffs.

If you want to play a "bare minimum" tank, it'll work fine in dungeons.

Once we get to the point of 12 people working together for a common goal, people who only want to hit the "bare minimum" become a lot less desirable as teammates for progression.

VaranisArano · May 2021

Ryuvain wrote: »

You have no idea how many times I've been saved by 'selfish' sets as a tank. I'm fine with helping allies as a healer with spc or something.

Usually these 'selfish' sets keep me alive while healer revives or dps does mechanics. If I'm able to hold my own longer as a tank I'm selfish? Ok then. That's why I only tank with friends. Idk about you, but staying alive is my literal job. I can support, but not at my own expense. Saved many a wipe due to staying alive without a healer.

Out of curiosity, what content was this?

Dungeons, arenas, or trials?

I'm mostly curious, because I'm pretty sure some of the debate in this thread is fueled by few people being clear what level of content they are playing.

Selfish sets work fine in dungeons and arenas, IMO. By the time it's a 12-man group effort, then people start wearing the sets that best support the whole group effort.

ZOS_ConnorG · May 2021

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zvavi · May 2021

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

Ryuvain · May 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

You have no idea how many times I've been saved by 'selfish' sets as a tank. I'm fine with helping allies as a healer with spc or something.

Usually these 'selfish' sets keep me alive while healer revives or dps does mechanics. If I'm able to hold my own longer as a tank I'm selfish? Ok then. That's why I only tank with friends. Idk about you, but staying alive is my literal job. I can support, but not at my own expense. Saved many a wipe due to staying alive without a healer.

Out of curiosity, what content was this?

Dungeons, arenas, or trials?

I'm mostly curious, because I'm better sure some of the debate in this thread is fueled by few people being clear what level of content they are playing.

Selfish sets work fine in dungeons and arenas, IMO. By the time it's a 12-man group effort, then people start wearing the sets that best support the whole group effort.

Yeah I agree. I was talking about vet dlc dungeons hm. Selfish sets help keep me up in case someone else wipes.
Trials I can see group buffs being much more valuable. We tend to run them much more often there. That being said I dont find trials as fun, so I mostly do dungeons.

I rarely do dungeons in pugs, but NEVER do trial pugs.

Heimdarm · May 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

preevious · May 2021

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

Yeah, except no one do 70k DPS without any buff. That's just impossible.

Heimdarm · May 2021

preevious wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

Yeah, except no one do 70k DPS without any buff. That's just impossible.

lol google is your friend. youtube also

preevious · May 2021

Heimdarm wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

Yeah, except no one do 70k DPS without any buff. That's just impossible.

lol google is your friend. youtube also

Full of parses, yes ! On the trial dummy ! Wich gives all the buffs !
Link a full parse of 70k on the 3mil or 6 mil dummy, and then, I'll admit I was wrong.

The trial dummy's raison d'etre is actually to gives the buffs that teamates would give (healers, tanks, other DDs..).

So, I repeat.
No one do 70k DPS WITHOUT BUFFS

zvavi · May 2021

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

1. No they won't. Many tanks refuse to run a staff backbar. Or use the minor protection morph of the taunt. Or don't wear yolna. Heck, some staff tanks don't provide any of those buffs.
2. Sure, sure, but we are talking about group damage. If dds in a trial group push out 350k when they could push out 400k with more support, that means tanks don't need to worry about 2nd add wave spawning on yolna.
3. I ain't talking 70k Vs 20k I am talking 60k vs 70k. 60k can be a 70k.

Heimdarm · May 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

1. No they won't. Many tanks refuse to run a staff backbar. Or use the minor protection morph of the taunt. Or don't wear yolna. Heck, some staff tanks don't provide any of those buffs.
2. Sure, sure, but we are talking about group damage. If dds in a trial group push out 350k when they could push out 400k with more support, that means tanks don't need to worry about 2nd add wave spawning on yolna.
3. I ain't talking 70k Vs 20k I am talking 60k vs 70k. 60k can be a 70k.

..and again we arrived to the point: If a tank decide to help the group with wearing support sets, because they think the group's overall damage won't be enough it is absolutley fine. Pushin this idea further, and state/propagate to the playerbase that this is the normal is absolutely ridiculous.

It's only a support, if support needed. If dps needs support for additional damage output for the content, than they are not ready for the content. If they do not need additional support to increase their damage, becasue they have high enough dps, than the tank and healer should take every possibility to strengthen their original role, which means staying alive for the tank, and maximize healing output for the healer.

zvavi · May 2021

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

1. No they won't. Many tanks refuse to run a staff backbar. Or use the minor protection morph of the taunt. Or don't wear yolna. Heck, some staff tanks don't provide any of those buffs.
2. Sure, sure, but we are talking about group damage. If dds in a trial group push out 350k when they could push out 400k with more support, that means tanks don't need to worry about 2nd add wave spawning on yolna.
3. I ain't talking 70k Vs 20k I am talking 60k vs 70k. 60k can be a 70k.

..and again we arrived to the point: If a tank decide to help the group with wearing support sets, because they think the group's overall damage won't be enough it is absolutley fine. Pushin this idea further, and state/propagate to the playerbase that this is the normal is absolutely ridiculous.

It's only a support, if support needed. If dps needs support for additional damage output for the content, than they are not ready for the content. If they do not need additional support to increase their damage, becasue they have high enough dps, than the tank and healer should take every possibility to strengthen their original role, which means staying alive for the tank, and maximize healing output for the healer.

But that's exactly the thing, there is a line in which with support dds would complete content, but without it they won't (portal mechanics usually)

Zodiarkslayer · May 2021

Milchbart wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

I hate the term. It's ridiculously that tanks building for survival or sustain are v
called selfish.

If "staying alive" is all a tank offers for group performance that's like in real life showing up and sitting at your desk is enough for good work performance.
If I would show up with a selfish set in our vet dlc hm trials the raidlead would doubt my capability of tanking endgame content and rightfully replace me.

You are probably working in a german company. 😂

Heimdarm · May 2021

Milchbart wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

I hate the term. It's ridiculously that tanks building for survival or sustain are v
called selfish.

If "staying alive" is all a tank offers for group performance that's like in real life showing up and sitting at your desk is enough for good work performance.

I am doing this all day for 9 years now. I was the employee of the month last december.

Agenericname · May 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

You have no idea how many times I've been saved by 'selfish' sets as a tank. I'm fine with helping allies as a healer with spc or something.

Usually these 'selfish' sets keep me alive while healer revives or dps does mechanics. If I'm able to hold my own longer as a tank I'm selfish? Ok then. That's why I only tank with friends. Idk about you, but staying alive is my literal job. I can support, but not at my own expense. Saved many a wipe due to staying alive without a healer.

Out of curiosity, what content was this?

Dungeons, arenas, or trials?

I'm mostly curious, because I'm better sure some of the debate in this thread is fueled by few people being clear what level of content they are playing.

Selfish sets work fine in dungeons and arenas, IMO. By the time it's a 12-man group effort, then people start wearing the sets that best support the whole group effort.

More specifically I think its about the goal(s) of the group. If youre pugging pledges, the goal is a clear or maybe the HM for the extra shinies. In many cases youre dealing with a few unknowns anyway. In over half of the dungeons it barely matters, if at all.

Groups that run for achievements, like a component of a challenger, trifecta, timed arena runs, or some of the odd ball achievements, have different goals and their expectations change to some extent.

Trials differ slightly from dungeons here because group support weighs so much that it started as the expectation as to where 4 person content can vary to some degree. Most people that do that content dont do it in PUGs so their expectations arent imposed on unwilling players in PUGs, usually. Thats not always the case unfortunately.

The only time Ive ever seen a healer turned away was for an achievement run and it was over their gear.

Blind runs I often do run selfish sets since the objective is more about learning, with our group anyway. BDV HM secret boss is a good example. Its also a shining example of why I oppose proposed restrictions that lock healers and tanks into gear at the queue. Our healer changed sets several times trying to find something that worked well for us, as did I, until we were comfortable with the fight.

I tank and I call them selfish sets as well. I suppose that could be interchangable with "survival sets" as well, or possibly damage sets, but its not calling a tank or healer selfish. We are conditioned to reject the term for its conotation without regard to the denotation, but its not inherently bad on its own.

ClawOfTheTwoMoons · May 2021

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

OP is reading the word "selfish" and interpreting it without context. While the connotations of the word selfish in meatspace are generally negative, in the context of ESO it colloquially just means "set that helps the tank stay alive, but doesn't buff the group" and is a fairly neutral term in most situations. In fact there may be certain situations in which a tank may be encouraged to wear selfish sets by other members of their group.

This 100%

Heimdarm · May 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

1. No they won't. Many tanks refuse to run a staff backbar. Or use the minor protection morph of the taunt. Or don't wear yolna. Heck, some staff tanks don't provide any of those buffs.
2. Sure, sure, but we are talking about group damage. If dds in a trial group push out 350k when they could push out 400k with more support, that means tanks don't need to worry about 2nd add wave spawning on yolna.
3. I ain't talking 70k Vs 20k I am talking 60k vs 70k. 60k can be a 70k.

..and again we arrived to the point: If a tank decide to help the group with wearing support sets, because they think the group's overall damage won't be enough it is absolutley fine. Pushin this idea further, and state/propagate to the playerbase that this is the normal is absolutely ridiculous.

It's only a support, if support needed. If dps needs support for additional damage output for the content, than they are not ready for the content. If they do not need additional support to increase their damage, becasue they have high enough dps, than the tank and healer should take every possibility to strengthen their original role, which means staying alive for the tank, and maximize healing output for the healer.

But that's exactly the thing, there is a line in which with support dds would complete content, but without it they won't (portal mechanics usually)

Yes I fully agree. But the argument here is not about that there is a place for support "in case of low dps". The argument here is there are players who state a tank must wear support set for X Y content, regardless of the dps players damage output.

Xebov · May 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

1. No they won't. Many tanks refuse to run a staff backbar. Or use the minor protection morph of the taunt. Or don't wear yolna. Heck, some staff tanks don't provide any of those buffs.
2. Sure, sure, but we are talking about group damage. If dds in a trial group push out 350k when they could push out 400k with more support, that means tanks don't need to worry about 2nd add wave spawning on yolna.
3. I ain't talking 70k Vs 20k I am talking 60k vs 70k. 60k can be a 70k.

..and again we arrived to the point: If a tank decide to help the group with wearing support sets, because they think the group's overall damage won't be enough it is absolutley fine. Pushin this idea further, and state/propagate to the playerbase that this is the normal is absolutely ridiculous.

It's only a support, if support needed. If dps needs support for additional damage output for the content, than they are not ready for the content. If they do not need additional support to increase their damage, becasue they have high enough dps, than the tank and healer should take every possibility to strengthen their original role, which means staying alive for the tank, and maximize healing output for the healer.

But that's exactly the thing, there is a line in which with support dds would complete content, but without it they won't (portal mechanics usually)

But many of these lines can be naturally crossed by DDs. Every DD can naturally reach a DPS higher than the minimum for a given content. If they need support gear to cross this line than they are just bad.
The idea behind support gear is not to help the group to fullfil minimum requirements but to increase an already good performance. Thats a problem tanks often encounter that they have to wear certain sets because their groups natural progress is not good enought yet so they need the tanks to offset this, or better said they expect the tanks to offset this. This however usually forces tanks into have a better performance compared to the groups average to maintain support while they fill the role.

zvavi · May 2021

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

1. No they won't. Many tanks refuse to run a staff backbar. Or use the minor protection morph of the taunt. Or don't wear yolna. Heck, some staff tanks don't provide any of those buffs.
2. Sure, sure, but we are talking about group damage. If dds in a trial group push out 350k when they could push out 400k with more support, that means tanks don't need to worry about 2nd add wave spawning on yolna.
3. I ain't talking 70k Vs 20k I am talking 60k vs 70k. 60k can be a 70k.

..and again we arrived to the point: If a tank decide to help the group with wearing support sets, because they think the group's overall damage won't be enough it is absolutley fine. Pushin this idea further, and state/propagate to the playerbase that this is the normal is absolutely ridiculous.

It's only a support, if support needed. If dps needs support for additional damage output for the content, than they are not ready for the content. If they do not need additional support to increase their damage, becasue they have high enough dps, than the tank and healer should take every possibility to strengthen their original role, which means staying alive for the tank, and maximize healing output for the healer.

But that's exactly the thing, there is a line in which with support dds would complete content, but without it they won't (portal mechanics usually)

Yes I fully agree. But the argument here is not about that there is a place for support "in case of low dps". The argument here is there are players who state a tank must wear support set for X Y content, regardless of the dps players damage output.

Well naturally you don't need those sets to finish the content, just like you don't need weaving to do so. But a dd that doesn't weave is not bringing as much to the group as he could. it is just preferable. Group content is group content, everyone are expected to bring what they can to the table. I am willing to slot off heals and barrier if we are 3 dd group. if I can survive i will be wearing 3 support sets on my supports. I will slot eledrain for portal in vSS if needed. I will even swap to full heal if groups end up needing it.

I ain't saying that support sets are mandatory, but why wouldn't you want to enhance your group's performance if you can?

zvavi · May 2021

Xebov wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

1. No they won't. Many tanks refuse to run a staff backbar. Or use the minor protection morph of the taunt. Or don't wear yolna. Heck, some staff tanks don't provide any of those buffs.
2. Sure, sure, but we are talking about group damage. If dds in a trial group push out 350k when they could push out 400k with more support, that means tanks don't need to worry about 2nd add wave spawning on yolna.
3. I ain't talking 70k Vs 20k I am talking 60k vs 70k. 60k can be a 70k.

..and again we arrived to the point: If a tank decide to help the group with wearing support sets, because they think the group's overall damage won't be enough it is absolutley fine. Pushin this idea further, and state/propagate to the playerbase that this is the normal is absolutely ridiculous.

It's only a support, if support needed. If dps needs support for additional damage output for the content, than they are not ready for the content. If they do not need additional support to increase their damage, becasue they have high enough dps, than the tank and healer should take every possibility to strengthen their original role, which means staying alive for the tank, and maximize healing output for the healer.

But that's exactly the thing, there is a line in which with support dds would complete content, but without it they won't (portal mechanics usually)

But many of these lines can be naturally crossed by DDs. Every DD can naturally reach a DPS higher than the minimum for a given content.

show me vCR+3 solo portal logs without the tank supporting that dd.

EmEm_Oh · May 2021

Might want to use a different word. Selfish implies one-person centric apathy, but it actually means helping the entire group achieve a goal.

Xebov · May 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

1.) The tank/healer will give those buffs anyway, just the availability time will be lower. So that 30% is very deceptive..

2.) Deceptive, but lets stay with it a little. A 20k dps get a 30% buff. Not sure if directly 30%, but lets say directly and lets cheat a little so after buff it will be: 27k dps. WOW! xD

3.) A 70k dps do twice as much damage without any buff (but he will still get some anyway, because of the skills and tank enchant) and we have a proper tank and good damage dealers in the team, not noobs.

1. No they won't. Many tanks refuse to run a staff backbar. Or use the minor protection morph of the taunt. Or don't wear yolna. Heck, some staff tanks don't provide any of those buffs.
2. Sure, sure, but we are talking about group damage. If dds in a trial group push out 350k when they could push out 400k with more support, that means tanks don't need to worry about 2nd add wave spawning on yolna.
3. I ain't talking 70k Vs 20k I am talking 60k vs 70k. 60k can be a 70k.

..and again we arrived to the point: If a tank decide to help the group with wearing support sets, because they think the group's overall damage won't be enough it is absolutley fine. Pushin this idea further, and state/propagate to the playerbase that this is the normal is absolutely ridiculous.

It's only a support, if support needed. If dps needs support for additional damage output for the content, than they are not ready for the content. If they do not need additional support to increase their damage, becasue they have high enough dps, than the tank and healer should take every possibility to strengthen their original role, which means staying alive for the tank, and maximize healing output for the healer.

But that's exactly the thing, there is a line in which with support dds would complete content, but without it they won't (portal mechanics usually)

But many of these lines can be naturally crossed by DDs. Every DD can naturally reach a DPS higher than the minimum for a given content.

show me vCR+3 solo portal logs without the tank supporting that dd.

Thats not the point. You said "there is a line in which with support dds would complete content, but without it they won't". That includes cases where players dont meet the minimum requirements and support sets push them over the edge as well as cases where already good players need support. Thats why i said "many" and not all. In the second case i have a group that is already good and support makes sense, but there is also the first case where players dont progress and rely on others fixing the issue.

Varana · May 2021

Heimdarm wrote: »

It's only a support, if support needed. If dps needs support for additional damage output for the content, than they are not ready for the content. If they do not need additional support to increase their damage, becasue they have high enough dps, than the tank and healer should take every possibility to strengthen their original role, which means staying alive for the tank, and maximize healing output for the healer.

But getting support from the healer and tank allows the group to do content better. Faster, with fewer deaths, fewer mechanics, more relaxed clears, all in all more enjoyable gameplay for everyone.

"Strengthen their original role" - and what if that's not needed? Spell Power Cure, a very common healer support set, literally procs on overhealing. If a healer can get decent SPC uptimes, they have zero, nada, nikakoy need of "maximising healing output" even more.
That is where we stand - the group can get sufficient healing even without healers pumping everything into HPS. And similarly with tanks, even though there isn't that nice stat to measure them. If a tank can survive and keep taunt without maximising health, resistances, block mitigation, etc., then why would they invest in those even further, while they don't need them?

At that point, they don't strengthen their role. They waste potential.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · May 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

The long and short of it is it’s just not fun to tank this game was made for DD that’s no secret so on top of not being able to play the game the way it was meant to be played. You also have to give buffs so other people can can all out on damage. It’s not fair and it’s the main reason we have had a tank shortage since year one.

Some have no problem with group support but most people do have a problem with it. I say this cause everyone is able to made a tank and yet we still have so few. You don’t see tanks in a one hour queue players are still not making tanks. Why pay money and use your limited free time to not have fun.

No matter how you look at it or which side you’re on the reality is clear the way the system is caused a massive shortage in tanks. Tank role is just boring as hell.

etchedpixels · May 2021

It depends what you do with the sets. If I run a magtank and I wear plague doctor I can have more stats assigned to magicka and enough health to tank. If I have more magicka I can use more skills to help the group - maybe those magicka based heals and buffs are worth more than say battalion defender ?. Unless you look at whether the self set bonuses unlock other group benefits you are missing the core of the question.

.. and that 100k necrotank in capture the relic with entirely selfish gear is definitely providing group support holding a relic and keeping half the enemies occupied 8)

Klad · May 2021

God I hate Theorycrafting