This ball group thing has to end

DTStormfox · April 2021

Considering that:
- Ball groups (intentionally or not) abuse server load limits by peaking damage and/or continuously spamming area of effect damage and heals
- Ball groups cause lag in the game [I know there was a group size test but empirical evidence demonstrates that generally speaking, lag is more noticeable when ball groups are around or in the area]
- Ball groups' only intent is to farm players for AP by repetitively killing the same players in quick succession
- Ball groups do not play the objectives (taking keeps, scrolls)

Considering that:
- Abusing game limits to gain an advantage over other players is not allowed according to the TOS (it is a form of exploit)
- Repetitively killing the same player(s) in quick succession is not allowed according to the TOS because it can be interpreted as harassment or 'griefing' (code of conduct)
- Ball groups ruin the 'normal' gameplay for the majority of other players, and thus negatively impact the player population, and thus the profitability and continuation of ESO
- When ball groups are not on the server and/or not in the area, the game runs much smoother for many players
- Many threads on the Forums show that the sentiment amongst ESO players is not in favour of ball group gameplay (many people experience it as 'not fun' or 'ruining the fun' or 'causing lag').

I urge ZOS to
- Take action against all players that participate in ball groups that abuse server limits
- Take action against all players that participate in ball groups that farm players for AP by harassing or 'griefing' other players by repetitively and in quick succession killing the same players.
- Take action against all players that participate in ball groups that intentionally aim to ruin the fun of other users of the 'service' (i.e. the game)

Furthermore, I urge ZOS to
- Actively moderate the game to identify players who are breaking the rules.
- Disincentivize ball group gameplay by reducing the amount of AP earned from killing the same player repetitively during a set time period
- Disincentivize ball group gameplay by applying negative returns from running in groups

PS. I will not read any comments on this post, nor will I comment on your comments.

VaranisArano · April 2021

DTStormfox wrote: »

- Take action against all players that participate in ball groups that farm players for AP by harassing other players by repetitively and in quick succession killing the same players.

I too get killed repetitively and in quick succession when I keep running to the same resource tower to fight against tower farmers I can't beat.

And yet I'm not calling for them to be disciplined for harassing me.

Faded · April 2021

DTStormfox wrote: »

PS. I will not read any comments on this post, nor will I comment on your comments.

Pretty rude after we slogged through your wall of Patrick Henrying.

butterrum222 · April 2021

Make friendly fire with aoe attacks a thing, that would be hilarious

GreenHere · April 2021

I'm not a ball group player or advocate per se, but I have no problem with their existence. I did it once, and it was kinda neat for the new experience I guess; but ultimately I didn't like having to adhere to such a rigid style of play. You're getting puppeteered by the leader, and that's not why I play games, personally.

If players can coordinate to become a more formidable force, isn't that kind of what war is all about? Doesn't really seem like they're abusing anything except people's poor decision-making skills. Any technical issues caused are on ZOS, not the players. I don't see why they need to be punished for what seem like legitimate tactics.

BlakMarket · April 2021

This is ridiculous, zergs and faction stacks bring the lag, ball groups do have an impact but only run at specific times - not 24hrs a day.

If you cant deal with ballgroups go elsewhere on the map, or form your own group to fight.

Flangdoodle · April 2021

GreenHere wrote: »

If players can coordinate to become a more formidable force, isn't that kind of what war is all about? Doesn't really seem like they're abusing anything except people's poor decision-making skills. Any technical issues caused are on ZOS, not the players. I don't see why they need to be punished for what seem like legitimate tactics.

I agree that first and foremost the burden is on ZOS to address the technical issues, especially because when these groups are around (not just encountered or engaged- but anywhere in the area) skills, ultimates, siege, potions, and bar-swapping stop working entirely.

However, this isn't just about organized tactics. What war would see an organized force that runs to the top floor of an enemy building and waits for a few soldiers from the other side to stray upstairs so that 12 can jump on them at once? (often while they're side is losing ground) Imagine if the Greeks had hidden inside the Trojan Horse and then jumped out and just ran around the walls of Troy killing a few Trojans who happened to be up there? Think they would have won that war?

No, this is about something different. It's about bullying (which BTW is supposedly also against ZOS TOS.) The leaders of these groups aren't just puppeteering the others in their group, they're using the others in their group to bully other players, and if the game glitches so that those they're attacking can't do anything - they could care less.

You'll see them claim that they just want good fights - but then why do they all play on the same faction? If they just wanted "good fights" wouldn't they want to be on opposite factions and wouldn't they be always fighting each other? I mean - they're the best in the game, right? Don't they want to fight the best in the game all the time?

And here's the tell: if you wanted "good fights" and you found out that something you were doing was glitching out the game and making it impossible for your enemies to fight back - wouldn't you be *first* to report it and be constantly be raising the alarm with ZOS until you got your "good fights" back?

Or would you run around the the 3rd floors of keeps looking to take out players 1 at a time by piling-on with your whole group?

So yeah, players shouldn't be punished for organizing, and for using advanced tactics, but that's not at all what this is about. This is about bullying, plain and simple.

Crash427 · April 2021

Flangdoodle wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

If players can coordinate to become a more formidable force, isn't that kind of what war is all about? Doesn't really seem like they're abusing anything except people's poor decision-making skills. Any technical issues caused are on ZOS, not the players. I don't see why they need to be punished for what seem like legitimate tactics.

I agree that first and foremost the burden is on ZOS to address the technical issues, especially because when these groups are around (not just encountered or engaged- but anywhere in the area) skills, ultimates, siege, potions, and bar-swapping stop working entirely.

However, this isn't just about organized tactics. What war would see an organized force that runs to the top floor of an enemy building and waits for a few soldiers from the other side to stray upstairs so that 12 can jump on them at once? (often while they're side is losing ground) Imagine if the Greeks had hidden inside the Trojan Horse and then jumped out and just ran around the walls of Troy killing a few Trojans who happened to be up there? Think they would have won that war?

No, this is about something different. It's about bullying (which BTW is supposedly also against ZOS TOS.) The leaders of these groups aren't just puppeteering the others in their group, they're using the others in their group to bully other players, and if the game glitches so that those they're attacking can't do anything - they could care less.

You'll see them claim that they just want good fights - but then why do they all play on the same faction? If they just wanted "good fights" wouldn't they want to be on opposite factions and wouldn't they be always fighting each other? I mean - they're the best in the game, right? Don't they want to fight the best in the game all the time?

And here's the tell: if you wanted "good fights" and you found out that something you were doing was glitching out the game and making it impossible for your enemies to fight back - wouldn't you be *first* to report it and be constantly be raising the alarm with ZOS until you got your "good fights" back?

Or would you run around the the 3rd floors of keeps looking to take out players 1 at a time by piling-on with your whole group?

So yeah, players shouldn't be punished for organizing, and for using advanced tactics, but that's not at all what this is about. This is about bullying, plain and simple.

Don't you run with AOTP?

Gilvoth · April 2021

dear Zenimax, (Microsoft)

please stop the ball groups.
is greefing many of us.

we make threads about this asking for help, but has been no change since launch on this, please make it impossible for these ball groups to exist.

EdmondDontes · April 2021

Yep. People have adapted. There are 50k troll tanks everywhere already now. They don't do quite as much damage, but they are just as indestructible. Today my raid put three coldfires on a group sieging a front door and they appeared to take no damage even when all three coldfires hit same time. The balance is shot already and with only 19 sets there are not options to rebuild for a counter to them.

Still laggy as ever. Still regular disconnecting. Still stuck in combat. Still balance is very bad. And as far as we know, there will never be more than 19 sets allowed in cyro again. Until more sets come back, it's just a promise unfulfilled for now.

Ackwalan · April 2021

If ball groups would play AvAvA, it wouldn't be a problem. When all they do is sit in one Keep, it's becomes harassment.

Theignson · April 2021

Ball groups mostly don't want good fights, they just want to farm pugs, the more disorganized the better. They definitely lag out the server, ZOS has already confirmed this.

I just try to ignore ballgroups since I can't do anything to harm them anyway with my melee characters. If I try I just get lag stunned and unable to move or break free, then die.

I also try to ignore tower humping trolls.

Problem is the population is now so low that if I ignore those 2 groups almost nothing is left

IAmIcehouse · April 2021

DTStormfox wrote: »

- Repetitively killing the same player(s) in quick succession is not allowed according to the TOS because it can be interpreted as harassment or 'griefing' (code of conduct)
-

No it isn't... Deliberately targeting the same individual is. Very different.

DTStormfox wrote: »

- Ball groups ruin the 'normal' gameplay for the majority of other players, and thus negatively impact the player population, and thus the profitability and continuation of ESO

Killing other players in a PVP environment shouldn't be described as "ruining" gameplay for another player. That's silly.

DTStormfox wrote: »

- Many threads on the Forums show that the sentiment amongst ESO players is not in favour of ball group gameplay (many people experience it as 'not fun' or 'ruining the fun' or 'causing lag').

People on forums are only here to complain about what's in Cyrodiil. Not talk about things they like or are indifferent to. We noticed that with the changes to procs where the forums were nearly all positive comments during the tests then extreme negative comments when it was announced it was more than a "test".

kadar · April 2021

No, this is about something different. It's about bullying (which BTW is supposedly also against ZOS TOS.) The leaders of these groups aren't just puppeteering the others in their group, they're using the others in their group to bully other players, and if the game glitches so that those they're attacking can't do anything - they could care less.

You'll see them claim that they just want good fights - but then why do they all play on the same faction? If they just wanted "good fights" wouldn't they want to be on opposite factions and wouldn't they be always fighting each other? I mean - they're the best in the game, right? Don't they want to fight the best in the game all the time?

Honest question, which faction are you referring to?

I really only play at primetime on GH (PC NA):

AD: Queen's Brigade, Knights Paravant, Homicide, CUTEST (newly)
DC: Drac, Tyr, Iron Legion, Xan's Army (rip maybe?), Ni
EP: Arrius 51, Another Ball Group (rip maybe?)

There are other groups that "stack" to varying degrees, but these are really the only ones that make "ballgroup" distinction in my mind. I probably forgot 1 or 2 idk.

You can think ball groups want to bully people if you like, but as a member of a guild on that list, I can assure you that our group (of 12 max) builds and desires to fight as many players at one time as possible i.e. that faction stack of 70 rotating the map looking for lit PvDoors

The reason groups push the top floor of keeps is to avoid being sieged by said 70 players at a time, not repeatedly kill 1s and 2s. When this happens for whatever reason, our group either hops out and leaves (cause it's boring AF), or tries to flag the keep to draw more peeps to fight.

Faded · April 2021

Ackwalan wrote: »

If ball groups would play AvAvA, it wouldn't be a problem. When all they do is sit in one Keep, it's becomes harassment.

Did you know you can go do something else on the entire map they're not playing? Pass it on.

VaranisArano · April 2021

Ackwalan wrote: »

If ball groups would play AvAvA, it wouldn't be a problem. When all they do is sit in one Keep, it's becomes harassment.

As someone who prefers to play AvAvA by taking and defending keeps for my alliance, I am very leery of condemning players who don't like that playstyle.

Are we going to say the same thing about tower farmers? They routinely sit at one resource, killing players who come out to take it. How many times would you say I have to throw myself at that resource before I can call it "harassment"?

How about the players who camp at towns during Midyear Mayhem? Most of them are certainly engaging in PvP, but there's minimal if any gain to their alliance in terms of AvAvA to be found from killing players questing in the towns. How many times would you say I have to walk into a known ambush spot before I can call it harassment?

Frankly, I say those are valid activities in Cyrodiil. It's not harassment just because I repeatedly died. To quote Gina:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/546727/was-it-ever-confirmed-if-tea-bagging-is-against-tos-now/p1

ks888 · April 2021

Datty may have quit ESO, but didn't quit the forums

MipMip · April 2021

DTStormfox wrote: »

- Ball groups' only intent is to farm players for AP by repetitively killing the same players in quick succession

Apparently OP has no idea why we play: for the thrill and fun teamplay, challenging ourselves as coordinated group in heavily outnumbered situations, where each player has to play all aspects of their role perfectly, and the group has to work together with high precision

Also btw killing the same players in quick succession doesn't bring much AP

Crash427 · April 2021

Dat wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I know AOTP isn't a ballgroup. The thing is I've watched them run down 2 people with their three groups. If their members are complaining about ballgroups going after people it's a bit hard to take their complaints seriously.

VaranisArano · April 2021

Crash427 wrote: »

Dat wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I know AOTP isn't a ballgroup. The thing is I've watched them run down 2 people with their three groups. If their members are complaining about ballgroups going after people it's a bit hard to take their complaints seriously.

This one just might be me, but I feel like every organized group ends up running down one, two, or a few people at some point. Sometimes it's mopping up the last bits of an assault. Sometimes it's "kill those guys before they set up a rez camp for their faction." And sometimes it's just "Hey, I know that guy, kill him before he gets away!"

There's been a couple times we arrived in full force to deal with what we thought was an enemy force flipping the flags at Cropsford. It was one player fighting on the flags and after we blew them up, we were like "Man, that poor quester. That had to suck."

Stuff like that happens on a fluid battlefield.

Sanctum74 · April 2021

-Playing the game as intended is not abusing server load limits, exploiting, harassing, or griefing.
-Zergs and guards cause lag too, should they be removed next?
-Killing the same player over and over is not griefing when that player is the one that keeps going back to be killed, if anything they are the griefer.

All play styles should be relevant in cyro since there are many counters available. Wanting other play styles removed because you don’t like them is not a valid reason and is toxic to the community.

Crash427 · April 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Dat wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

I know AOTP isn't a ballgroup. The thing is I've watched them run down 2 people with their three groups. If their members are complaining about ballgroups going after people it's a bit hard to take their complaints seriously.

This one just might be me, but I feel like every organized group ends up running down one, two, or a few people at some point. Sometimes it's mopping up the last bits of an assault. Sometimes it's "kill those guys before they set up a rez camp for their faction." And sometimes it's just "Hey, I know that guy, kill him before he gets away!"

There's been a couple times we arrived in full force to deal with what we thought was an enemy force flipping the flags at Cropsford. It was one player fighting on the flags and after we blew them up, we were like "Man, that poor quester. That had to suck."

Stuff like that happens on a fluid battlefield.

It absolutely does. We all do it and we've all been on the wrong end of it. We've all zerged and been zerged, that's the game. Just tired of hearing people complain about things they themselves do.

GreenHere · April 2021

Flangdoodle wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

If players can coordinate to become a more formidable force, isn't that kind of what war is all about? Doesn't really seem like they're abusing anything except people's poor decision-making skills. Any technical issues caused are on ZOS, not the players. I don't see why they need to be punished for what seem like legitimate tactics.

I agree that first and foremost the burden is on ZOS to address the technical issues, especially because when these groups are around (not just encountered or engaged- but anywhere in the area) skills, ultimates, siege, potions, and bar-swapping stop working entirely.

However, this isn't just about organized tactics. What war would see an organized force that runs to the top floor of an enemy building and waits for a few soldiers from the other side to stray upstairs so that 12 can jump on them at once? (often while they're side is losing ground) Imagine if the Greeks had hidden inside the Trojan Horse and then jumped out and just ran around the walls of Troy killing a few Trojans who happened to be up there? Think they would have won that war?

No, this is about something different. It's about bullying (which BTW is supposedly also against ZOS TOS.) The leaders of these groups aren't just puppeteering the others in their group, they're using the others in their group to bully other players, and if the game glitches so that those they're attacking can't do anything - they could care less.

You'll see them claim that they just want good fights - but then why do they all play on the same faction? If they just wanted "good fights" wouldn't they want to be on opposite factions and wouldn't they be always fighting each other? I mean - they're the best in the game, right? Don't they want to fight the best in the game all the time?

And here's the tell: if you wanted "good fights" and you found out that something you were doing was glitching out the game and making it impossible for your enemies to fight back - wouldn't you be *first* to report it and be constantly be raising the alarm with ZOS until you got your "good fights" back?

Or would you run around the the 3rd floors of keeps looking to take out players 1 at a time by piling-on with your whole group?

So yeah, players shouldn't be punished for organizing, and for using advanced tactics, but that's not at all what this is about. This is about bullying, plain and simple.

How is killing players in PvP bullying? That's the whole point.

Is it because they have a solid tactic that can't be beaten unless you have similar force/numbers to counter them? Is it because they repeatedly beat you and you get upset by it? Is it because the technical issues that arise when they're around frustrate you? I'm not being snarky here, I'm honestly just trying to wrap my head around it; what possible cause could one have for accusing a ball group (a group of people with their own objective which is almost certainly not focused on any one person very often at all) of harassment of any kind? I'm honestly asking -- could someone please break it down for me because I don't seem to understand.

As far as strategic choices on where they go or how they help the alliance, or how any of that compares to what a real soldier should do or how a real war would play out: Who cares? Pretty sure "Play Your Way" is one of the marketed tenets of the game to this day, and if it tickles people's pickles to just mindlessly fight enemy players wherever they find them then they should be allowed to do that. It's a game, yo. A lot of people are here to have fun, not reenact the proper tactics needed to win a fictional war they don't care about. Condemning them for not helping their alliance by going where they "belong" or whatever sounds like the kind of Chat Commander BS that is way closer to bullying than anything I've ever experienced from a ball group. Let them do their thing, and avoid them if you want no part of it. Or form a formidable enough group to take them on / deter them. But calling for their entire play style to be abolished seems absurd and selfish, at least in my view.

And keep in mind, I'm not a ball group player; I don't even enjoy being on the winning end of the play style. Just to make my (lack of) bias clear.

Ackwalan · April 2021

MipMip wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

- Ball groups' only intent is to farm players for AP by repetitively killing the same players in quick succession

Apparently OP has no idea why we play: for the thrill and fun teamplay, challenging ourselves as coordinated group in heavily outnumbered situations, where each player has to play all aspects of their role perfectly, and the group has to work together with high precision

Also btw killing the same players in quick succession doesn't bring much AP

I had no idea that spamming heals and cc while ult dumping on groups of 2 maybe 3 was considered challenging.

master_vanargand · April 2021

To be honest, Resource Tower should be removed from Cyrodiil.
This is abused by enemy alliances and has only a negative effect.

Minnesinger · April 2021

- Repetitively killing the same player(s) in quick succession is not allowed according to the TOS because it can be interpreted as harassment or 'griefing' (code of conduct)

Wait I lost the plot here. You should be able to report a player for killing you more than once twice? You know it is impossible to monitor the game the way that people get bans for multi kills.

ZOS_ConnorG · April 2021

Greetings all,

After review we have closed this thread as it is not constructive and could become quite hostile. Remember when creating a thread that it must be civil, constructive, and within the rules.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.