THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Now I realize I spent an hour healing no one and my game didn’t have a missing animation glitch.

Something about what you say here makes wonder when they made this change for PvP did they remove all of the calculations to the AOE smart healing formulae, or did they leave it all in there, and just make it so that it doesn't apply the heal to anyone it checks who isn't in your group.

From a performance standpoint there is a big difference between the 2 approaches.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Now I realize I spent an hour healing no one and my game didn’t have a missing animation glitch.

Something about what you say here makes wonder when they made this change for PvP did they remove all of the calculations to the AOE smart healing formulae, or did they leave it all in there, and just make it so that it doesn't apply the heal to anyone it checks who isn't in your group.

From a performance standpoint there is a big difference between the 2 approaches.

While I do not have the technical knowhow to answer your question here is what I can tell you. Maybe this will be a clue to open up the answer that you are looking for.

When using regen it would work on me. I had no reason to use it in any place aside from a keep so my assumption was that ZOS simply removed the beam to others that would normally be shown on screen to reduce lag. What got me thinking it was glitched was because I wasn’t getting any of those really small amounts of AP that you would normally get from healing a random.

Now this thread has shown me that I must have looked like a moron to the people on ballistas I was “healing”.

It's something we could never really know unless we were able to dig in and look at the code directly to see how they modified it to work in PvP areas. They would need some conditions like If PlayerPvP flag = yes and PlayerPvPgroup flag = no, then skip calculations, else perform calculations.

Not sure what their variables are that equate to the fillers I put in there, but if they are not doing something along these lines then the calculations are still being performed yielding no performance improvements whatsoever, and only applying heals to those in your group. That would actually make performance worse as they would actually just be adding calculations on top of what are already there to limit the actual application of the heal to a group member.

It does make me wonder though....

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

Maybe not, but I've noticed a sizable increase in purge/heal spamming, unkillable ball groups who do nothing but plant themselves on resources hoping to farm pugs for hours at a time.

I experienced the latest and greatest version of this phenomenon last night.

A ball group of 12 PvDoored one of our back keeps, and started running in a tight pack around the inside of the inner keep, waiting for us to repair both of our doors. Once the doors were repaired, the keep unflagged, and those of us who died were able to respawn back inside the keep.

So, they ran up and down the stairs, killing everyone in their path. They didn't even bother to take the keep or sit on the flags..... they purposely left it in our posession, farming everyone who died, respawned nearby, and rejoined the fight. The inner balconies were lined with sieges, floors were dotted with daedric mines, volcanic runes, tangling webs, people were attacking the pack and dying and respawning 50 feet away... an endless cycle of death and AP farming. Up and down the stairs the ball group would go, out on the inner balcony, back down, past the flags, by the merchant... healing and purging their group, no one dying.

Our own guild and ball groups were out taking enemy keeps and trying to get our scrolls back. So of the 50 of us trying to deal with this farming pack of 12, the vast majority were solo players, many of them healers. Of course, they couldn't really do anything to help each other, since ally buffs and heals no longer work in this situation, so they kept getting burned down and respawning or getting rezzed, only to die again shortly thereafter.

The ball group stayed stacked, followed a predictable path, and just killed everyone who got in their way. Some of us were /sitchair'ing off to the side, watching the parade go by, since we couldn't hurt them individually, and nobody wanted to start a small group of randoms that would just be equally ineffective anyway. It was kind of funny watching our NPC guards respawning and trying to save us, only to get mowed down repeatedly.

After about a half hour of this, I was out of ideas. There wasn't any place large enough to put meatbags on the inner balconies they were pathing on, and putting them on the flags was pointless, as they were avoiding them. So I just logged out of Cyro and did some PvE for a while. I'm not sure if our organized folks came back after a while or the farmers just got tired and left. But it was a stark reminder of the effect these behavioral changes they like were having on AvA play. It should be very interesting to see what kind of farming is done when AP is doubled during the upcoming event.

Ryath_Waylander wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

Maybe not, but I've noticed a sizable increase in purge/heal spamming, unkillable ball groups who do nothing but plant themselves on resources hoping to farm pugs for hours at a time.

I experienced the latest and greatest version of this phenomenon last night.

The ball group stayed stacked, followed a predictable path, and just killed everyone who got in their way. Some of us were /sitchair'ing off to the side, watching the parade go by, since we couldn't hurt them individually, and nobody wanted to start a small group of randoms that would just be equally ineffective anyway. It was kind of funny watching our NPC guards respawning and trying to save us, only to get mowed down repeatedly.

After about a half hour of this, I was out of ideas. There wasn't any place large enough to put meatbags on the inner balconies they were pathing on, and putting them on the flags was pointless, as they were avoiding them. So I just logged out of Cyro and did some PvE ...

It should be very interesting to see what kind of farming is done when AP is doubled during the upcoming event

Yeah, that happened on two evenings for me last week. So I left to do some scrying and furnishing plan looting. I'd be interested to see how mayhem turns out. I know I'm just going to do one daily scouting mission for my ticket and that's it. As a healer that had fun planting rams and healing the crews I saw struggling, there's nothing for me there now. Ball groups and small scale that relish this change can go play with themselves, I ain't giving them any AP this year The great thing about ESO is, if I can't play the way I want in Cyro, I can still do so in PvE. If performance is too laggy, then the real endgame is housing

The last few posts are basically advertisements for turning my healer into a vicious death monster.

Eiregirl wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

I do wish people would stop already with the "performance" benefit of the healing changes and smaller group size. They stated that they were not implementing any performance changes after the live server tests. These changes were made strictly because they "liked the behavioral changes" the testing brought.

Read the official word from ZOS:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7011952/#Comment_7011952

I have read that entirely several times since it was posted and have read other posts about the tests they ran but apparently nobody bothers to read the first or last sentence quoted below.
"In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance"

They do go on to say.
"on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience."
The way I read that is that they want a much greater improvement. So do we.

Then they say.
"As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time."

Some people, mainly healers, consider this change a major change.

So either there was improvement or there was not. They do say that there was some marked improvement and later say there was not a significant enough impact on improving overall player experience. That does not mean there was NONE and a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes during the tests may not seem significant considering the performance problems cyro has had and still has and they have implemented changes based on those tests.

Was healing the entire 25% reduction? Of course not but it was a part of that just as the reduction in group size was a part of it.

Cyrodiil still has lots of issues that need to be dealt with but hopefully they will reverse this change on healing if not now then at some point when they finally get everything sorted out and/or get servers that can handle all the data flowing in and out.

You chop up the quote strangely, which contributes to misunderstanding the reason for the healing and group size changes.

The two paragraphs that discuss it are here:

"In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group."


When you don't chop off the second paragraph, it becomes clear that ZOS implemented the group size and healing changes because they liked the behavioral changes they saw. Sure, there were improvements on the spreadsheet, but when last I checked, spreadsheets don't play in Cyrodiil. Players do, and ZOS said there wasn't a significant enough impact on the player experience to make changes for performance. Instead, they made the changes because they liked the behavioral changes they brought.

Do your argument a favor and don't leave out crucial context.

VaranisArano wrote: »

That said, there were a few elements from the various tests that we’ve decided to enable for both PC and console for the foreseeable future, as we liked the behavioral changes they brought. Starting on Monday, November 9 for consoles and November 16 for PC, we will be limiting group sizes in Cyrodiil to 12 players, and all ally-targeted abilities will only apply to those in your group."

I wonder if these behavioral changes that they liked have held, and are still being noticed, or were they noticed during the testing, but now that people have had time to adapt to the new climate have they completely gone away? Worse yet, have new behavioral changes developed over time that fly 180 degrees in the face of those that they liked at the time? Since we don't know what these behavioral changes were it is hard to say if this behavior is still, in fact, taking place, or if different behaviors have taken their place.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Raevyness wrote: »

I dont understand the issue? Are you saying you dislike that pvp heals are group only? Or that they arent group only??
I've also run heals before in cyro but didnt really like it because:
1. Its only fun when your with a group healing
2. when you cant get into a group, you can't do much else.

currently if your solo in cyrodil you are a group, just a group of 1, yourself, so if you try to heal anyone, you cannot, though any means, you can be standing my 20 almost dead people, and spam heals, and nobody but yourself will receive healing.

if your in a group you can spam away, ball groups are unaffected in any meaningful way.

random solo players however cannot heal or be healed by anyone while they are all being zerg'd down by a ball group, that itself is purge and hot spamming to its hearts content.

Logged in yesterday for the first time in months. Went into Cyrodiil for some PVP. Figured I’d use my healer since I hadn’t played in a while.

Now I realize I spent an hour healing no one and my game didn’t have a missing animation glitch.

I guess my career as a healer of random ungrouped groups is over. Time for a completely selfish re-speck!

Totally agree. I was the same. Couldnt figure out why with my pure heals spec a group of 20 randoms defending a fort in off peak were getting rolled by about 30EP..

Then realized I was useless and only healing myself (besides mend spirit which works on others)...

Way to kill game play right??

I'm retiring that TEMP out and going to respec into DPS... If anyone wants heals too bad, im pure DPS after ZOS stuffed us over so bad.

Play the way you want!... exept being an ungrouped healer thats forbiden

Reaper_00 wrote: »

If you are so worried about healing being broken why are you (and other people who agree with this change) not advocating for nerfing self healing? One of the main reasons healing seems over-powered is because of all the self healing that goes on top of the heals from the healers. Why does a game with dedicated healer classes need such strong self healing anyway?

But people won't complain about that because it would affect their ability to play solo, so they'd rather just throw the healers under the ZOS bus instead.

The sheer hypocrisy of 1vx ers about this is breath taking. Their VD procs outside their group on randoms they haven't targeted. Their aoe DPS skills affect players they haven't targeted. Their armour sets do 50% of their damage.

But healers need nerfing and MUST group to play or contribute?

Just nerf self heals as we said over and over: vigour and resto skills should be nerfed through battle spirit to stop the exploiting of excessive self heals by soloers. All procs should only affect players actually targeted. Nerf aoe skills if solo so they only affect players you tagged.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Ryath_Waylander wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

The healing change is the best thing to happen to eso pvp in a long time. No more unkillable zergs

Maybe not, but I've noticed a sizable increase in purge/heal spamming, unkillable ball groups who do nothing but plant themselves on resources hoping to farm pugs for hours at a time.

I experienced the latest and greatest version of this phenomenon last night.

The ball group stayed stacked, followed a predictable path, and just killed everyone who got in their way. Some of us were /sitchair'ing off to the side, watching the parade go by, since we couldn't hurt them individually, and nobody wanted to start a small group of randoms that would just be equally ineffective anyway. It was kind of funny watching our NPC guards respawning and trying to save us, only to get mowed down repeatedly.

After about a half hour of this, I was out of ideas. There wasn't any place large enough to put meatbags on the inner balconies they were pathing on, and putting them on the flags was pointless, as they were avoiding them. So I just logged out of Cyro and did some PvE ...

It should be very interesting to see what kind of farming is done when AP is doubled during the upcoming event

Yeah, that happened on two evenings for me last week. So I left to do some scrying and furnishing plan looting. I'd be interested to see how mayhem turns out. I know I'm just going to do one daily scouting mission for my ticket and that's it. As a healer that had fun planting rams and healing the crews I saw struggling, there's nothing for me there now. Ball groups and small scale that relish this change can go play with themselves, I ain't giving them any AP this year The great thing about ESO is, if I can't play the way I want in Cyro, I can still do so in PvE. If performance is too laggy, then the real endgame is housing

The last few posts are basically advertisements for turning my healer into a vicious death monster.

A few people tried bombing them, but seeing how most were 45k+ HP heavy armor tanks with access to group buffs and group shields and group heals and group resists that their victims were denied by ZOS's behavioral changes, it didn't work.

I rarely play my bomber any more, because the current tank meta makes the play style far less effective than it used to be. Plus, since the best use for a bomb is on flag stacks, which they weren't doing, it becomes a lot harder to hit a moving target full of AOE damage spam that will reveal you before you can really get close.

I hear ya. When I go VD I actually don’t make a typical bomber. Generally what I’ll do is use the morph of the blue ultimate beam (sorry I’m bad with spell names) that explodes for splash damage into the VD or use the regular blue beam into radiant oppression. I’m simply looking ideally for one kill to trigger 8 people dropping at once.

It doesn’t always work but when it does ... chefs kiss.

For the record, shifting all my heals into the more selfish ones, strapping on about 30k resistances and doing what I said above worked out exceptionally well.

The old school blue beam Ult into its splash morph into VD can do some absurd damage if you hit the squishy guy.

eso_lags wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Raevyness wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

Best change ever. You guys dont actually want to solo, no what you want is to chase down solo players with randoms while still being able to heal them. No. But you still will chase actual solo players down with a random group and thank god you wont be able to heal them. You already have the advantage, you dont need more.

Again, one of the best changes they ever made. right along side the group size. Plus its good for performance. Its a step in the right direction for once.

If you really want to randomly heal people find a heal that can still heal others. I dont play a healer, and never will, but ive seen people healing randoms with cauterize. Not sure what else does it.

You said it yourself.. You dont play as a healer and never well. So i'll just go right ahead and disregard your opinion on the matter.

I've played a healer on EVERY MMO for over 15 years of playing MMOs. This is one of the WORST decisions.
What does it actually accomplish??
As a healer heading into PVP and realizing, once again on AD NA, that we were highly outnumbered, with no large organized groups going up against EP and DC, defending forts with about 20 people maybe a few grouped (i suspect mostly not), I log in and see theres 20+ players about to be rolled by incoming EP, attempt to heal them in a bid to help defend the fort and guess what? We were rolled in 2 seconds and I couldn't even help. Prior to these changes MAYBE my heals could have helped slow down the attack, allow us to push them back out the gate & seal the breach and be a defend. But 20 pugs going against like 40 EP. We had 0 chance, especially now I cant even heal we've -80% chance. In fact we mose well have logged off and just handed them the keys to that fort.

It made no difference. These changes are KILLING the class. And I'll be the first to say it. I'm dropping playing a healer and playing something else. Period. Is this a MMO?? BEcause its not very massive if 1/3 of the play style cant actually play in PVP (meaning DPS, Tank, healer).

If you've played NA, AD before you'd realize numbers are already LOW the majority of the time (outside of peak), as an Australian player, I play MOSTLY out of peak, meaning PVP was already a soggy experience at that for me, but this... this really kills it.. This isn't PVP. We don't even stand a chance anymore without the big shot PVP guilds..

Oh well, make a group. Encourage people to make a group. Eventually they will learn. And i cant relate you what you are saying about your faction because i play DC on xbox. When i started I played EP but there were way too many people on EP back then, and still are. too many zergs. In the campaign i played DC was gated almost all the time. So i made my new main on DC because there would be more EP to kill. Go take a resource solo or with a small group, or even a keep, and wipe people. Thats what I enjoy.

Healing is broken in this game. If you have played mmos for 15 years then name some other mmos with healing like this game. Its broken. I mean ffs, i fight max cp players that dont even know how to heal. Its an absolute embarrassment. And do you know the worst part? Its when i fight a group of 5 random players getting carried by a magplar and i cant kill any of them, nor can they kill me. Why? Because they arent using any strategy or combos to kill me, and they are getting carried by some unkillable healer tank that just happend to be there.

Of course things like that are better this update, but now everyones a tank. Or worse, a filthy werewolf, or even worse still, a filthy werewolf in crimson. Quite possibly one of the most broken builds ive ever seen in this game. I dont envy the people balancing this game.

OK, can't 1v5 people so you want the devs to change the rules so their skills won't function. If your expectations are to kill 5 people and you can't, maybe you're the one who should make a group.

Arent you a class rep for templar? Or used to be? Hmmmm 🙄🙄

Anyway, thats not what i said. Like at all, i swear Ill never understand why people dont read on the forums. I can kill plenty of people 1v5, and there are plenty of people i cant kill 1v5. It doesnt matter. I was giving a random example of how 4 extremely inexperienced players can get carried by an inexperienced magplar because healing is broken. And because of the fact that these groups, or not groups i guess, are sometimes uncoordinated, because they arent grouped, they cant kill me and I cant kill them. Now at least they have to actually be grouped if they want to be carried by a healer. And that will give them a better chance of killing people.

Yes, I was a rep because people communicated to ZOS that I can be trusted when it comes to the concerns of everybody who plays the game, not just a small clique who plays the game the way that I do..

If the magplar is inexperienced, then any 1vXer worth their salt will eliminate them first because A) they're inexperienced B] easier to kill C) they're helping the other 4 the most. Templar is my most killed class in PvP. If you're struggling to kill an inexperienced magplar, the issue here is not Cyrodiil's mechanics, rather your ambitions and expectations of 1v5ing people are out of whack with your capabilities.

If the problem is "because they arent grouped, they cant kill me and I cant kill them," that's going to happen indefinitely because Cyrodiil isn't a battleground or arena where everyone is in 12 person groups and these 12 person groups are in separate instances. The environment is always going to have overlapping groups, ungrouped players, and organized guild groups that will create these random clusters where everybody is playing by different rules. Bob and Emily can heal each other, but Armando and Kate who are in-between them can't get healed by either. This is confusing, inconsistent, and antithetical to competition as some people are playing with an advantageous ruleset. When I run with my guild, I feel sorry for all the random ungrouped players that get farmed mercilessly. It is ridiculous that we can run around a keep vs dozens and dozens of players for upwards of 20-30 minutes. Ever since these changes, we can do this for longer and against more players not just because they can;t heal each other, but also because everyone is building tankier (and thus less damage) for the same reason: because they can't heal each other, which just makes this meta even more miserable than it is.

Your statement that grouping "will give them a better chance of killing people" is disingenuous. All that would do is return to the status quo ante bellum, i.e., the way before these changes. It's not better. Not to mention it is unreasonable to expect and demand that in order for players not to suffer from an artificial debuff before engaging 3 tower humpers, people have to all gather at a designated spot by the resource and go through the process of grouping each other (we won't even get into sorting out roles, coordinating sets/skills, having someone step up and host a discord) while the three ulti bomb them. It's often not practical because of the open world nature of Cyrodiil and thus hardly a justification why players deserve to play under a disadvantageous ruleset.

Jaraal wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The environment is always going to have overlapping groups, ungrouped players, and organized guild groups that will create these random clusters where everybody is playing by different rules. Bob and Emily can heal each other, but Armando and Kate who are in-between them can't get healed by either. This is confusing, inconsistent, and antithetical to competition as some people are playing with an advantageous ruleset. When I run with my guild, I feel sorry for all the random ungrouped players that get farmed mercilessly. It is ridiculous that we can run around a keep vs dozens and dozens of players for upwards of 20-30 minutes. Ever since these changes, we can do this for longer and against more players not just because they can;t heal each other, but also because everyone is building tankier (and thus less damage) for the same reason: because they can't heal each other, which just makes this meta even more miserable than it is.

Your statement that grouping "will give them a better chance of killing people" is disingenuous. All that would do is return to the status quo ante bellum, i.e., the way before these changes. It's not better. Not to mention it is unreasonable to expect and demand that in order for players not to suffer from an artificial debuff before engaging 3 tower humpers, people have to all gather at a designated spot by the resource and go through the process of grouping each other (we won't even get into sorting out roles, coordinating sets/skills, having someone step up and host a discord) while the three ulti bomb them. It's often not practical because of the open world nature of Cyrodiil and thus hardly a justification why players deserve to play under a disadvantageous ruleset.

So much logic in this post, yet it's not recognized by the people with the power to implement it. What was fair and worked well for six years was tossed out the window overnight. Instead of leveling the playing field with changes, now the weak are made weaker, and the strong stronger. How this behavior is endorsed, encouraged, and enabled is beyond my own comprehension..... and apparently isn't worthy of any sort of explanation, either.

Exactly!!!!!! I've had a few months away and coming back to these changes are just BEYOND me... I can't comprehend what ZOS thought they were doing.

From my own perspective and what I've seen so far:
1. Breaking down groups into 12 has equaled LESS coordination and coordinated attacks, this has thus meant those very few organized guilds in opposing factions are ROLLING over others with more ease than ever before.
2. Those newer players experiencing ESO PVP will be turned away very quickly when they realize the slaughter-fest PVP has become, I've personally witnessed several people come to zone asking why they're so weak & what they're doing wrong - when the realization that its the game mechanics force people to be grouped and the average joe soloer is greatly disadvantaged, they quickly call BS and leave PVP, thus contributing to further faction divisions and population disadvantages.
3. They've removed the way healers can meaningfully contribute to the PVP environment by only allowing healing within groups this has:
* Lead to discrimination against healers as those forming groups more often than not, wanting 10DPS and only 2 healers, for example
* Lead to healers becoming 'feeders' NOT able to kill others, nor able to help their own faction by healing others. Thus just waiting for the opposing sides to roll them over.
4. Further caused disparities and exacerbated population difference when weaker factions (or less player factions) now can't coordinate large attacks given the 12 max per group, this further divides the faction with countless people standing around wondering where the war is and what to do
5. Removed faction unity whereby a bunch of solo players could choose to work together with a healer to achieve goals... Now said solo players can still achieve goals but healers cannot be apart of that 'teamwork' without actually being grouped with them, which has just removed some meaningful game play from healers.

I honestly hope ZOS overturns the healer thing. It adds NOTHING, nor can I see any benefit from it.
In some of the examples above, I can see people mention 1v4 with a healer and the 4 people cant kill the 1 guy because "hes good" and the 1 guy can't kill the 4 because there's a healer healing them.. YOU are the problem in this game!! In WHAT balanced and FAIR universe should ONE GUY be able to go up against FOUR guys and NOT DIE... You, my friend are the problem NOT the healer.

Raevyness wrote: »

5. Removed faction unity whereby a bunch of solo players could choose to work together with a healer to achieve goals... Now said solo players can still achieve goals but healers cannot be apart of that 'teamwork' without actually being grouped with them, which has just removed some meaningful game play from healers.

Along these lines, another undesirable change I've noticed is that since ungrouped healers (and unknown DPS and tanks who's LFG calls go unheeded) no longer find relevance in traveling with clusters of other players, a lot of them have taken to solo capturing resources as one of the few things they can do to help their alliance. The problem with this is, now guild groups who are trying to take keeps by surprise are yelling at the RSS cappers in zone chat for drawing the attention of the enemy, who are now porting in to keep their fort from being cut, while still being unaware of the hit squad setting up at the front door. So naturally, they are in a great position to defend once the sieges start firing. So, not only are they limited in what they can achieve on their own, but they are getting berated by their own people for doing so.