OCD and ESO

Danikat · January 2020

daemonios wrote: »

I have no experience with OCD, so feel free to correct me, but I feel there's something wrong about this thread.

OP talks about OCD as if it's something that can be specifically targeted by developers. Kind of like colour blindness, where there are tools to check how people with different types of colour blindness would experience the game, so you can address it during development, or filters that actively change a scene in real time to improve readability by people with colour blindness.

I would be very surprised if OCD worked that way and if it were as simple as adopting a few development guidelines. What triggers OP's OCD may not trigger someone else's, and they may be triggered by a completely different aspect. Am I seeing this wrong?

I'm not an expert by any means but from conversations I've had on the subject you're right that they can't anticipate every variation of OCD, or what would be an acceptable solution, but I don't think that means there's nothing they can do.

For example I once had a conversation with several people with OCD about organising their CD collections (back in the 2000s when having lots of CDs was more common). They all agreed their OCD determined how they ordered them, but they all did it differently. One person had them alphabetical by artist and then by album name within that, one by spine colour, and one woman had them in release order, right down to checking what date they were released if two came out the same year, and on the rare occasions two were released on the same day she checked where they were first sold to sort it by timezones (e.g. if one was in Europe and one was in Australia the Australian one went first) or if one had a midnight release.

It wouldn't be possible for them to all agree on an order CDs should always be sorted into, and I'm sure the same applies with game UIs. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to do anything. We had very similar conversations, repeatedly, on this forum, when players asked to be able to re-order the character select screen. Some people were fine with having them ordered by creation date, some wanted alphabetical by name, or grouped by alliance, or sorted by level, and so on. In the end the solution ZOS came up with was to let players manually sort them, that way everyone can have the order they want no matter what that is. I don't know if that was easier or harder (or about the same) as giving a drop-down list of the most commonly requested orders but IMO it was definitely the best solution.

This game already had a lot of UI customisation, even without addons. We can choose to show or hide all kinds of UI elements, change chat colours and text sizes, disable options (like duel invites) and so on. The OP is asking for a specific addition to that which doesn't appear any harder than the existing options. The notification that you've got a new item, collectable etc. is already context sensitive - it only appears when there's actually something new, so there must be code to tell the game when to show it. All that's needed is an option to disable that process.

And there's some things which can be assumed to bother anyone with OCD (and quite a few other people too) in the same way that certain colour combinations should always be avoided in colour coding because you can gaurentee they'll affect people with colour blindness. For example displaying numbered items out of numerical order, or having a mostly alphabetical list with a few seemingly random exceptions, or a set of items where the name changes depending on the item.

daemonios · January 2020

Danikat wrote: »

I'm not an expert by any means but from conversations I've had on the subject you're right that they can't anticipate every variation of OCD, or what would be an acceptable solution, but I don't think that means there's nothing they can do.

That much I can agree with. In fact, I've said repeatedly that ESO's UI has glaring shortcomings, and that ZOS shrug it off thanks to add-ons, even though you only have those on PC/Mac.

My beef here is with the claim that you can design specifically for OCD. Again, I have no direct experience with it, but from what I've read and some people have stated in this thread, you included, everyone's OCD is different. This makes it impossible to design for it.

As for OP, if I understand correctly your issue is with the character next to newly acquired items when you open your inventory, right? That icon is only present the first time you view the item. If you change tabs, or close and reopen your inventory, there is no "new item" indicator. To be honest, with such simple solutions it seems unreasonable for you to request a UI change, since it's not even a permanent UI feature.

ankeor · January 2020

I believe that realisticly a game company or whatever else company can't focus on every single human condition and find some solution because there are so many.

I would understand people who are deaf, colorblind or some have disablities having issues and asking for help but you know.. There is a limit. There are so many things that triggers me in this game but I find my own solutions if I can.

If we have to complain about somethings in the game and ask somethings it should be about game breaking issues or the things that the actual game needs to have in order to function better. Because there is no end for pleasing every single individual.

witchdoctor · January 2020

ankeor wrote: »

I believe that realisticly a game company or whatever else company can't focus on every single human condition and find some solution because there are so many.

I have to agree.

Sure, its easy for me to say as I am totally in the normal range here, (well, if we ignore those nasty devils on my shoulders), but there is only so much any 'person,' be it a game developer, business, or the Random Joe on the Street can do.

ZOS_Mika · January 2020

We have removed a handful of insulting and off topic comments from this thread. Keep in mind that, while it is fine to disagree, personal attacks or insults are not in the spirit of our game and the community around it. Please ensure that the commentary in this thread remains civil moving forward.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · January 2020

I have an extremely severe form of OCD that I wouldn't wish upon my enemies.

Suffice to say, I have been known to check the same thing repeatedly, to make sure nothing about it has changed, for hours on end. Yes. Hours of time spent repeatedly reading or looking at the same thing over and over again because my mind will not let me believe everything is safe.

It's not nice when you are completely unable to believe your own eyes.

OCD is a real illness and it is very, very debilitating.

SocialAssassin · January 2020

daemonios wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

I'm not an expert by any means but from conversations I've had on the subject you're right that they can't anticipate every variation of OCD, or what would be an acceptable solution, but I don't think that means there's nothing they can do.

That much I can agree with. In fact, I've said repeatedly that ESO's UI has glaring shortcomings, and that ZOS shrug it off thanks to add-ons, even though you only have those on PC/Mac.

My beef here is with the claim that you can design specifically for OCD. Again, I have no direct experience with it, but from what I've read and some people have stated in this thread, you included, everyone's OCD is different. This makes it impossible to design for it.

As for OP, if I understand correctly your issue is with the character next to newly acquired items when you open your inventory, right? That icon is only present the first time you view the item. If you change tabs, or close and reopen your inventory, there is no "new item" indicator. To be honest, with such simple solutions it seems unreasonable for you to request a UI change, since it's not even a permanent UI feature.

It's present every time I pick something up. Whether it be a new piece of equipment or crafting item. I have tried turning off loot history and it didn't do anything? That I can tell. The only way I can get the "!" to go away is to go through each item every single time. Sure I can try to ignore the "!" but I know it's there. Every time I go into my menu. All I want is the ability to turn off my loot indicator. I really don't think that's much to ask?

SocialAssassin · January 2020

ankeor wrote: »

I believe that realisticly a game company or whatever else company can't focus on every single human condition and find some solution because there are so many.

I would understand people who are deaf, colorblind or some have disablities having issues and asking for help but you know.. There is a limit. There are so many things that triggers me in this game but I find my own solutions if I can.

If we have to complain about somethings in the game and ask somethings it should be about game breaking issues or the things that the actual game needs to have in order to function better. Because there is no end for pleasing every single individual.

I have the right to complain as much as you or anyone on this forum. 1. let's be honest ZOS is never going to fix those "game-breaking issues" because then they would be out of a job. And you and others would have nothing to complain about.
The last thing that people thought this game needed was a text chat. And that's the last thing this game ever needed. All I am asking is to be able to turn the loot indicator off. So it's not triggering my OCD. This game hasn't functioned properly since 2014. And it never will.

FierceSam · January 2020

barney2525 wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

I’d be really interested to know how game developers like ZOS work to cater for people with OCD and other conditions that have a bearing on game and interface design. Especially on consoles where I can imagine there are console manufacturer’s guidelines that have to be obeyed.

I think on a general level it would be great if there were more options to manage the display of inventory and other items in game.

Thanks for raising this issue.

They are not going to cater to anyone. There are players who Like all the detail. The more, the merrier. So they just design it to what 'they' (the devs) think will work best - which is of course purely their own opinions.

Having more options to customize your display for your own tastes is always a good thing tho.

IMHO

I disagree. For any digital project there will be guidelines and established best practices to cater for a wide variety of user ‘types’. Indeed the whole ‘usability’ area of the industry revolves around developing and adhering to just such practices. These might range from the character width of dialogue boxes to accommodate text in languages that may have many very long words or read from right to left, to modifying effects so they don’t trigger epilepsy. Getting these elements right greatly enhances the usability of the game. Considering them early on in the design/development process is both creatively and economically sensible.

It is not unrealistic to expect game designers to consider these very seriously. Good professional designers will spend time with groups with varying specific needs to understand how best to design for them. It is part of the design challenge to create things that are both effective and consider the needs of the various user types.

Only the least competent design solely for themselves...

Salix_alba · January 2020

I can be ocd about some things and not others but I still don't know what the original issue is but

if you are playing on pc there might be an addon that can change whatever notification you are having an issue with and there are some inventory management addons on the esoui website

bakthi · January 2020

Danikat wrote: »

And there's some things which can be assumed to bother anyone with OCD (and quite a few other people too) in the same way that certain colour combinations should always be avoided in colour coding because you can gaurentee they'll affect people with colour blindness. For example displaying numbered items out of numerical order, or having a mostly alphabetical list with a few seemingly random exceptions, or a set of items where the name changes depending on the item.

This. Some of the things being mentioned in this thread are things that have bothered other people (who may or may not have OCD) for a long time. The (!) bother me also, but I am fortunate in that I can eventually forget about it for a bit if I stay out of the menu. But still, it bothers me every time I see it, and I don't want to go scrolling through my craft bag, collections, etc. to clear them. And as far as I know, it is impossible to clear the (!) from notifications, so I constantly have 3, one from each guild, because the weekly events are posted in the messages and I don't want to delete them.

The thread reminded me of this article. By building/designing a better ESO that is more accommodating to those with OCD, ZoS will most likely build a better ESO for everyone:

https://www.fastcompany.com/90338379/i-wrote-the-book-on-user-friendly-design-what-i-see-today-horrifies-me

(If you haven't read Don Norman's book The Design of Everyday Things, please do! It's quite good.)

ADPhil · August 2020

Im actually a couple of months late but hopefully not TOO late. But i'd just like to add my story and agree with some of the past posts that mention how bad this can get. As ridiculous as some might think this is , it can get pretty bad. For example, im currently going through another OCD phase since i recently got my Emp costume and its pretty bad right now. Like i said, it sounds ridiculous but bear with me. Anyways, ever since i got it i developed a huge attachment to it since , like i mentioned, it took me a while to get so i want to make sure im wearing it.

But the problem is that when i was previewing a style one day, it switched my costume and just like that my phase was triggered. Now im checking every second to make sure im wearing it and even though i clearly am, its like my brain still doesn't want to accept it and i even go as far as too look at photos online of the costume and conparing to make sure im not just wearing a different one.

This isn't the only case i have about being worried of something being wrong and checking everytime. This happens with Call of Duty aswell, i hate going into settings because im afraid of changing my sens or some other setting and not noticing. Its gotten to the point where i also took a photo so that i could compare everytime i accidently went into settings, just to make sure i didn't change anything. This process continues for god knows how long until im "satisfied" enough to continue.

Something i also want to make clear is that Video games aren't the only OCD trigger for me, it can get just as bad in real life with clothes and homework and whatnot.

While everyones trigger case may be different , such as mine not necessarily being affected by UI like other people here, the point everyone is trying to make is the same. This topic shouldn't be something that should be taken lightly. Its a very real thing that affects every aspect of our lives and can get very intrusive when there are more "important" things to worry about. It's like one of the previous posts mentioned, it feels like hell when your brain or eyes just don't want accept something as ridiculous as having a costume on. Its such a bad feeling to be worrying about something and having insane amounts of stress added into your life over something so small and dumb, but at the same time not being able to control it no matter what at times.

Lunerdog · August 2020

ADPhil wrote: »

While everyones trigger case may be different , such as mine not necessarily being affected by UI like other people here, the point everyone is trying to make is the same. This topic shouldn't be something that should be taken lightly. Its a very real thing that affects every aspect of our lives and can get very intrusive when there are more "important" things to worry about. It's like one of the previous posts mentioned, it feels like hell when your brain or eyes just don't want accept something as ridiculous as having a costume on. Its such a bad feeling to be worrying about something and having insane amounts of stress added into your life over something so small and dumb, but at the same time not being able to control it no matter what at times.

This ^^

If I may say this to the people reading this thread who don't understand what OCD sufferers go through:

Be glad that you don't understand, be glad that you don't feel what we feel.

Try to show show a little empathy, just because you don't get what it's all about doesnt mean that it's not very very real.

Tandor · August 2020

I wish all those suffering from any clinical condition well, and hope that they are receiving the right treatment for their condition - which is naturally far more important than changing a game's UI to cater for that condition. Of course, some conditions can be treated and in at least most cases cured, OCD being one of them, while others like blindness and hearing loss can only be minimally treated and in most cases never cured or reversed. It's important that they are not compared as if equal in severity and inevitable permanence.

However, I'm a great believer in choice and if there are aspects of the UI that can be afforded additional choices in the settings without impacting on performance then I'm all in favour of that. One additional factor, however, that I don't think has been mentioned thus far, apologies if it has been, is the impact of any such changes on the demands on customer support. For example, opting out of notifications about new items in your inventory could at least theoretically result in additional tickets along the lines of "I didn't realise I had that item so I didn't notice when I deconstructed it". I'm not suggesting that's a reason not to make changes, just that it's an additional factor for any developer to take into account when considering making them. These sorts of things aren't always as simple to implement as those lobbying for them make out, and they can also cause unforeseen impacts on other parts of the coding resulting in more bug reports.

Ectheliontnacil · August 2020

Nightblade stats changing with barswap if you don't have the same amount of shadow skills on both bars is sooooooo annoying!!!

Also the fact that you can put a glyph on your shield and thus you have different stats on the other bar should be changed.

TjPhysicist · March 2021

I know this thread is a bit old but - PLEASE PLEASE for the love of all that is good, ZOS can we get an option to remove the (!) icon in the inventory for every single item i pick up? I don't think I have OCD, at least not that it's been diagnosed and this drives even me batty. This isn't such a big issue (at least for me) for the one off items I pick up, but it's really really weird and completely unnecessary for the crafting bag. I obsessively pick up on every crafting node I encounter, and I have the daily mail things that deliver me materials for 3 or 4 of the crafting professions so I see the (!) in the inventory all the time. And removing it isn't a trivial matter either, you have to actually GO IN, scroll through, what in mine is a rather massive list of items in the crafting bag stopping at each one briefly pausing so the game registers that I have seen it and I know about it.

And this isn't even getting into the new Sets thing, or when you learn a full motif set...the looks show up under appearance and I have to go to each single appearance type and scroll through, again, a rather sizable list pausing briefly at the one item among hundreds that has a little (!) next to it...why?

And of course the best of all (sarcasm)...antiquities. I have many alts, only my main has learnt scrying, there's no reason to waste points on it on all my characters it's all shared anyways. If i pick up a lead on an alt, it shows the (!) in the journal in Antiquities and i CANNOT make it go away until I log onto a character that has learnt scrying.

Please make this an option, at the very least make this an on/off setting somewhere PLEASE. I have genuinely gotten to the point where I stop picking up crafting items in the wild, removed auto transfer to crafting bag and obsessively delete absolutely any crafting items I pick up by mistake. I WOULD completely stop looting anything, but there's i'm compelled into at least looting bodies.

And just so there's no confusion, please see screenshot about what I (and others) mean when we're talking about the (!). Note: I'm playing on PC with a gamepad so the UI is the gamepad UI rather than the Keyboard/Mouse UI but the same principles apply equally to both.