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The more in denial people are the worse it gets
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xylena✭✭✭✭✭CP is your problem. base stats inflated. defensive stats inflated. offensive stats not inflated enough to keep up. defiles nerfed. remove CP and alot of people become alot more killable. that said - a coordinated group with dedicated heals, even in no-cp, will wreak havoc. but that should be expected, since they are operating as a coordinated team.
CP isn't the only problem. High MMR BGs are dominated by the same tank heal stall crap and immovable health bars that CP PvP is. If you want to try to make the point that ESO PvP feels better when you remove CP, zergs, healbots, PvDoor, and organized groups... I'm inclined to agree, but it's a different discussion.Retired until we break the Tank Meta1 -
BaiterOfZergs✭✭✭✭✭CP is your problem. base stats inflated. defensive stats inflated. offensive stats not inflated enough to keep up. defiles nerfed. remove CP and alot of people become alot more killable. that said - a coordinated group with dedicated heals, even in no-cp, will wreak havoc. but that should be expected, since they are operating as a coordinated team.
CP isn't the only problem. High MMR BGs are dominated by the same tank heal stall crap and immovable health bars that CP PvP is. If you want to try to make the point that ESO PvP feels better when you remove CP, zergs, healbots, PvDoor, and organized groups... I'm inclined to agree, but it's a different discussion.
Comparing “top” bg players to the average player skews thing’s. Because if you ever been in a low mmr game you know people die very quick, that is more likely how it will play out.
People that know what they’re doing will always stall out matches to be honest, you can’t stop that.
Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.0 -
NordSwordnBoard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So a mag player ate 2 Onslaughts and you want s+b nerfed because of it? You think you should have been handed a kill?
What if that person came here saying that stamina builds need nerfed because he had to play defensively against you instead of attacking. If he came saying “He kept using his ultimate and all I could do was block and heal, I couldn’t go on the offense and kill him. It’s not faaaaaiiiiirrrrr. Nerf Onslaught!” How does that sound to you? Because that’s pretty much what you sound like to me.
I would be happy with an onslaught nerf and given that your name is reverb it would seem you might be a bit bias discussing the topic?
Your name is fawn, meaning you're a young deer in your first year. How could we listen to someone so inexperienced?
Now have a go at my name and further discredit yourself by addressing the username instead of the point they made.Fear is the Mindkiller6 -
ZOS_RogerJ✭✭✭✭Greetings! As we've removed a few non-constructive comments around baiting, please remember that while it’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site0 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭BaiterOfZergs wrote: »Comparing “top” bg players to the average player skews thing’s. Because if you ever been in a low mmr game you know people die very quick, that is more likely how it will play out. People that know what they’re doing will always stall out matches to be honest, you can’t stop that.
My point is that once No-CP PvP becomes competitive, it has the same problems CP PvP does, one of which is that stalling until your enemy makes a mistake or lets their guard down is heavily rewarded over playing aggressively. People who know what they're doing will always stall out matches if doing so always gives them the best chance of winning, which is core to the Tank Meta.Retired until we break the Tank Meta2 -
BaiterOfZergs✭✭✭✭✭BaiterOfZergs wrote: »Comparing “top” bg players to the average player skews thing’s. Because if you ever been in a low mmr game you know people die very quick, that is more likely how it will play out. People that know what they’re doing will always stall out matches to be honest, you can’t stop that.
My point is that once No-CP PvP becomes competitive, it has the same problems CP PvP does, one of which is that stalling until your enemy makes a mistake or lets their guard down is heavily rewarded over playing aggressively. People who know what they're doing will always stall out matches if doing so always gives them the best chance of winning, which is core to the Tank Meta.
I’m saying they’ll stall out matches even when they aren’t trying to and could even be specced in “glass cannon” builds. It’s really no different than decent players dueling each other, it stalls out until the first person gets bored or both quit.
But the biggest difference is with cp you don’t have to be considered competitive to stall out fights, in no cp you somewhat have to.
Zerg of House Smallscale, First of his name, wielder of Volendrung, battleground hero, Cyrodiil butcher, the swifft footed, OG of the Templars and first pvpers, defender of scrolls and baiter of zergs.1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭BaiterOfZergs wrote: »But the biggest difference is with cp you don’t have to be considered competitive to stall out fights, in no cp you somewhat have to.
I can agree with that, but it's still frustrating that git gud means stall stall burst, and really nothing else. Not as frustrating as CP zergs heal blobbing keep flags to flip it without actually killing any of the 5 people trying to defend against their 30.Retired until we break the Tank Meta1 -
DarkGottbeard✭✭✭CP isn't the only problem. High MMR BGs are dominated by the same tank heal stall crap and immovable health bars that CP PvP is. If you want to try to make the point that ESO PvP feels better when you remove CP, zergs, healbots, PvDoor, and organized groups... I'm inclined to agree, but it's a different discussion.
I remember before march of 2015. People said what you were doing was bad for the game and required no skill. But you were the one who chose to run enough magicka sustain to make wings more comfortable. You were the one choosing proper line of sight and utilized stamina's superior speed to stay ahead of the melee swarms. You were the one carefully cycling your defenses so that it was very difficult to get a burst window on you. You were the one tracking the health bars of the people behind you waiting for an opportunity to leap execute a sniper out of no where. You were playing your kit very skillfully and deserved all of your power. It was righteous for you to be able to do what you were doing.
Very few people understood the technical side of what you were doing back then, or the time you had invested for that level of kit mastery. So a large number of people who were upset that you wouldn't die when they crosshair'd you cried for nerfs to dragon wings and when that didnt work, they asked for nerfs to dodge rolls then nerfs to shuffle. They kept asking for nerfs.
Edited by DarkGottbeard on December 28, 2019 1:15AM3 -
ecru✭✭✭✭✭
✭Make bad pvp players disappear from the game and stop messing the game up for the rest of us.
SnB block healing is braindead easy yet incredibly effective. It most definitely artificially keeps "bad pvp players" alive in zergs, and responding to kneejerk nerf posts with kneejerk never-nerf-anything posts is equally dumb.
That said, un-nerfing DoTs, Defiles, and Bleeds would probably go a lot farther than more nerfs.
un-nerfing dots/defiles/bleeds won't do a whole lot when every second player is playing a templar, and every group has a player whose sole job it is to spam purge.
until the ability to remove hundreds of thousands of damage worth of dots with one global cooldown is removed, dots will never be an effective form of damage against half decent players. the opportunity cost of purge, ritual, and it's synergy are completely out of whack and zos has been ignoring this for years.
nerfing my major defile from an off hand poison enchant which basically nobody but me even used was pretty dumb though. it already had low uptime, but now it's minor defile, zzz.Edited by ecru on December 28, 2019 1:23AMGryphon Heart
Godslayer
Dawnbringer1 -
Freakin_Hytte✭✭✭✭✭Seriously? You're going to start another thread how you think s&b is "OP"? After your last one got zero confirmation from other players?Edited by Freakin_Hytte on December 28, 2019 8:10AM0
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Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What keeps groups alive is abundance of purges and heals.
dot meta clearly showed SnB builds are weak against strong dots, times and times again whenever dots were strong SnB users dropped. So whats so different about magplars then? The fact that they are practically immune to dots or defiles and they make everyone around them also immune to it. The moment you give tanky builds the means to purge negative effects they go unkillable, if not SnB block they got minor protection,major protection, minor maim, frost staffs...
I'm not calling for any nerfs, I literally do not care at this point I've accepted the fact that dots will never ever be good again, but it is what it is. I barely use SnB for back bar self buffs and the occasional blocking since Dk can not deal with ranged burst otherwise. Not since wings got trashed.
Nerf SnB even more and then what? Those magplars will probably switch to an frost staff or whatever else, they won't stop purging all the dots , defiles, negative effects on them and outheal it like its nothing. If you're not admitting that templar class design and anything that imitates it, allows this tank meta to happen but blaming it all on SnB then you are just shitfing the focus away from the real problem.Edited by Ragnarock41 on December 28, 2019 7:44AM4 -
Raudgrani✭✭✭✭✭
✭Have a hunch part of the problem is, that some people expect that they should be able to single handedly steamroll each and every enemy they come across. If you encounter someone who's reeeeally hard to kill. Watch them for a while. Do they really do anything that demands them being killed? Or are they just troll tanks or healers?
I've had some healers with S&B/resto, and of course - they haven't gone down easily. Only way they went down, was through loads of CC and negate. WHEN I was actually being attacked badly, I couldn't do what I was supposed to do - heal others in the group. In the end, I was standing alone, and saw enough CC/defile/DOT's/negates to go down.
Of course it's annoying if someone like that is left alive inside a keep, and you see like 10 guys chasing them. But the solution is simple, just leave them alone. Eventually they will leave, if none keeps wasting their time chasing them up and down towers.
Haven't played now for a while, but I really doubt things have changed that much. I'm yet to see an "unkillable tank" that actually kills decent players, or does anything worse than draw aggro and heal allies.1 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm yet to see an "unkillable tank" that actually kills decent players, or does anything worse than draw aggro and heal allies.
That is the problem. Healers who can provide strong heals for their allies while themselves being nigh unkillable is just bad design. Either you are a tank who can stay alive forever but provide some buffs/debuffs or a healer who can keep 20 other people alive but explode the moment someone looks at you weird. Not the mix of two.1 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm yet to see an "unkillable tank" that actually kills decent players, or does anything worse than draw aggro and heal allies.
That is the problem. Healers who can provide strong heals for their allies while themselves being nigh unkillable is just bad design. Either you are a tank who can stay alive forever but provide some buffs/debuffs or a healer who can keep 20 other people alive but explode the moment someone looks at you weird. Not the mix of two.
The mix should definitely exist, ESO shouldn´t fall into the same mistakes that old MMO´s had where you could only fulfill 1 specific role. What can be adjusted is how potent it can be.2 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Have a hunch part of the problem is, that some people expect that they should be able to single handedly steamroll each and every enemy they come across. If you encounter someone who's reeeeally hard to kill. Watch them for a while. Do they really do anything that demands them being killed? Or are they just troll tanks or healers?
I've had some healers with S&B/resto, and of course - they haven't gone down easily. Only way they went down, was through loads of CC and negate. WHEN I was actually being attacked badly, I couldn't do what I was supposed to do - heal others in the group. In the end, I was standing alone, and saw enough CC/defile/DOT's/negates to go down.
Of course it's annoying if someone like that is left alive inside a keep, and you see like 10 guys chasing them. But the solution is simple, just leave them alone. Eventually they will leave, if none keeps wasting their time chasing them up and down towers.
Haven't played now for a while, but I really doubt things have changed that much. I'm yet to see an "unkillable tank" that actually kills decent players, or does anything worse than draw aggro and heal allies.
Yea, I think this is the problem too.
In cyrodiil I heal and there’s one super tank who follows me around in battles. Almost impossible to kill, and usually sticks to me and throws stuns and probably debuffs on me constantly. It’s not worth the effort to take them out because they’re so tanky.
Do I see anything wrong with this? No. The person can’t kill me, and is doing their job as a pvp tank disrupting past enemy lines.
Build diversity makes for a better game. If specs like that go away then all the game will be is burst damage builds and healers. People need to stop trying to kill build diversity. Diversity is what makes MMO pvp better than shooters.Edited by Iskiab on December 28, 2019 2:53PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten3 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm yet to see an "unkillable tank" that actually kills decent players, or does anything worse than draw aggro and heal allies.
That is the problem. Healers who can provide strong heals for their allies while themselves being nigh unkillable is just bad design. Either you are a tank who can stay alive forever but provide some buffs/debuffs or a healer who can keep 20 other people alive but explode the moment someone looks at you weird. Not the mix of two.
The mix should definitely exist, ESO shouldn´t fall into the same mistakes that old MMO´s had where you could only fulfill 1 specific role. What can be adjusted is how potent it can be.
It can't be adjusted. Either you can be tanky and provide enough heals to keep people alive or no. It's not a question of potency.
Should a tanky healer be possible? Yes, but their heals should be weak and insufficent to keep allies alive against 2-3 oponents. Should a strong healer be possible? Yes, but at the price of being a very soft target.2 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
The problem is a little more complicated than that.The mix should definitely exist, ESO shouldn´t fall into the same mistakes that old MMO´s had where you could only fulfill 1 specific role. What can be adjusted is how potent it can be.
Deal damage, heal allies, face tank, high sustain: How many of these should a build be able to effectively choose?
Thanks to power creep, we can build for 3 of these at a time in CP PvP pretty easily. Being tanky and healing allies together isn't actually a problem until they've been doing it for 20 seconds straight holding block and spamming BoL the entire time, at which point they drop Remembrance and an Argonian tripot and are back at full mag and stam. Such builds typically do invest in mitigation and sustain, but not healing strength. You get that for free. That's bad for the game.
Back in the permablock meta of 2014, you could quickly run a blocking enemy out of stam by aggressively attack weaving multi-hit abilities like Twin Slashes, Flurry, or Jabs. Now, while you can't quite 100% permablock anymore, you also probably won't run out of stam holding block against 1-2 guys, while trying to go aggressive against the guy holding block is only going to blow your own stam bar thanks to various offensive nerfs.
TL;DR this PvP was much better when you could only realistically build for 2/4 options above. You could still fill multiple roles, but the tradeoffs were much more significant.Retired until we break the Tank Meta2 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭@DarkGottbeard thanks, I know I hate on blocking a lot, but respect to the original Sap Tank.
Potatoes are always going to cry for nerfs to whatever beats them, without understanding the mechanics of what beats them, but I don't recall any mass of players clamoring for Sap Essence nerfs. ZOS butchered that one on their own accord, along with any number of other instances where they saw fit to "fix" what zero players considered broken, or any of their massive sweeping nerfs that hammered entire game systems into the dirt to address a single specific abusable combo. It's not just on the players, nobody was crying for DoT nerfs until ZOS buffed single target DoTs to the sky out of nowhere.Retired until we break the Tank Meta2 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm yet to see an "unkillable tank" that actually kills decent players, or does anything worse than draw aggro and heal allies.
That is the problem. Healers who can provide strong heals for their allies while themselves being nigh unkillable is just bad design. Either you are a tank who can stay alive forever but provide some buffs/debuffs or a healer who can keep 20 other people alive but explode the moment someone looks at you weird. Not the mix of two.
The mix should definitely exist, ESO shouldn´t fall into the same mistakes that old MMO´s had where you could only fulfill 1 specific role. What can be adjusted is how potent it can be.
It can't be adjusted. Either you can be tanky and provide enough heals to keep people alive or no. It's not a question of potency.
Should a tanky healer be possible? Yes, but their heals should be weak and insufficent to keep allies alive against 2-3 oponents. Should a strong healer be possible? Yes, but at the price of being a very soft target.
Disagree, in my book it's perfectly acceptable to be tanky and dish out good heals. I absolutely despise the old MMO standards where healers needs to be squishy or tanks just pure meatshields or dds needs to be glass cannons. It's fine if you don't share my viewing of things. One of the main reasons I enjoy this game is that it offers the opportunity to build characters to serv multiple purposes (I mainly play in NO-CP (but I do play CP as well)).
And I disagree that you can't adjust it. At the end of the day, it's all about numbers. And numbers can be adjusted. I'll happily share my ideas on what should be done to adjust the current situation about about the high ttk if you're interested.0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm yet to see an "unkillable tank" that actually kills decent players, or does anything worse than draw aggro and heal allies.
That is the problem. Healers who can provide strong heals for their allies while themselves being nigh unkillable is just bad design. Either you are a tank who can stay alive forever but provide some buffs/debuffs or a healer who can keep 20 other people alive but explode the moment someone looks at you weird. Not the mix of two.
The mix should definitely exist, ESO shouldn´t fall into the same mistakes that old MMO´s had where you could only fulfill 1 specific role. What can be adjusted is how potent it can be.
It can't be adjusted. Either you can be tanky and provide enough heals to keep people alive or no. It's not a question of potency.
Should a tanky healer be possible? Yes, but their heals should be weak and insufficent to keep allies alive against 2-3 oponents. Should a strong healer be possible? Yes, but at the price of being a very soft target.
Disagree, in my book it's perfectly acceptable to be tanky and dish out good heals. I absolutely despise the old MMO standards where healers needs to be squishy or tanks just pure meatshields or dds needs to be glass cannons. It's fine if you don't share my viewing of things. One of the main reasons I enjoy this game is that it offers the opportunity to build characters to serv multiple purposes (I mainly play in NO-CP (but I do play CP as well)).
And I disagree that you can't adjust it. At the end of the day, it's all about numbers. And numbers can be adjusted. I'll happily share my ideas on what should be done to adjust the current situation about about the high ttk if you're interested.
What is the counterplay to a tanky healer who can heal through anything? You can't kill them since they are tanky and their friends will kill you before you can do anything. You can't kill their friends since they will just heal through your damage. So you just... walk away? Opportunity to build for multiple purposes is fine. But you really shouldn't have everything at the same time.
And I don't see how "tanky healer with big heals" can be adjusted through numbers. If you reduce healing/increase damage output you get into the "tanky healer with poor heals" situation. And if you limit tankiness (through numbers) you are back to "squishy healer with big heals". You either can do it or you can't. Regardless of specific numbers.
Xylena brings a good point. I guess you can have a tanky healer with big heals. Who will run out of resources in 15-20 seconds of sustained combat. But this is definitely not the case and let's be honest, no one finds poor sustain fun.1 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭Freakin_Hytte wrote: »Seriously? You're going to start another thread how you think s&b is "OP"? After your last one got zero confirmation from other players?
This guys is hopefully trolling and if not I just feel sad for this person, I mean you started the EXACT same thread a while ago and everyone disagreed with you (because s&b is not OP). just give up m8 you obviously have no understanding or any type of skill in pvp, go do your world bosses or normal maelstrom if you want easy killsHave a hunch part of the problem is, that some people expect that they should be able to single handedly steamroll each and every enemy they come across. If you encounter someone who's reeeeally hard to kill. Watch them for a while. Do they really do anything that demands them being killed? Or are they just troll tanks or healers?
I've had some healers with S&B/resto, and of course - they haven't gone down easily. Only way they went down, was through loads of CC and negate. WHEN I was actually being attacked badly, I couldn't do what I was supposed to do - heal others in the group. In the end, I was standing alone, and saw enough CC/defile/DOT's/negates to go down.
Of course it's annoying if someone like that is left alive inside a keep, and you see like 10 guys chasing them. But the solution is simple, just leave them alone. Eventually they will leave, if none keeps wasting their time chasing them up and down towers.
Haven't played now for a while, but I really doubt things have changed that much. I'm yet to see an "unkillable tank" that actually kills decent players, or does anything worse than draw aggro and heal allies.
Yea, I think this is the problem too.
In cyrodiil I heal and there’s one super tank who follows me around in battles. Almost impossible to kill, and usually sticks to me and throws stuns and probably debuffs on me constantly. It’s not worth the effort to take them out because they’re so tanky.
Do I see anything wrong with this? No. The person can’t kill me, and is doing their job as a pvp tank disrupting past enemy lines.
Build diversity makes for a better game. If specs like that go away then all the game will be is burst damage builds and healers. People need to stop trying to kill build diversity. Diversity is what makes MMO pvp better than shooters.
Build diversity is whats been killing pvp for some time, having nearly unkillable tanks that purely just get res and sit on flags coupled with healers with sword and board makes pvp slow, grindy and not fun for everyone else that isn’t running in a zerg or a ball group, at one stage when the game was more skill based before broken sets, there wasnt enough cp to play those builds1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Freakin_Hytte wrote: »Seriously? You're going to start another thread how you think s&b is "OP"? After your last one got zero confirmation from other players?
This guys is hopefully trolling and if not I just feel sad for this person, I mean you started the EXACT same thread a while ago and everyone disagreed with you (because s&b is not OP). just give up m8 you obviously have no understanding or any type of skill in pvp, go do your world bosses or normal maelstrom if you want easy killsHave a hunch part of the problem is, that some people expect that they should be able to single handedly steamroll each and every enemy they come across. If you encounter someone who's reeeeally hard to kill. Watch them for a while. Do they really do anything that demands them being killed? Or are they just troll tanks or healers?
I've had some healers with S&B/resto, and of course - they haven't gone down easily. Only way they went down, was through loads of CC and negate. WHEN I was actually being attacked badly, I couldn't do what I was supposed to do - heal others in the group. In the end, I was standing alone, and saw enough CC/defile/DOT's/negates to go down.
Of course it's annoying if someone like that is left alive inside a keep, and you see like 10 guys chasing them. But the solution is simple, just leave them alone. Eventually they will leave, if none keeps wasting their time chasing them up and down towers.
Haven't played now for a while, but I really doubt things have changed that much. I'm yet to see an "unkillable tank" that actually kills decent players, or does anything worse than draw aggro and heal allies.
Yea, I think this is the problem too.
In cyrodiil I heal and there’s one super tank who follows me around in battles. Almost impossible to kill, and usually sticks to me and throws stuns and probably debuffs on me constantly. It’s not worth the effort to take them out because they’re so tanky.
Do I see anything wrong with this? No. The person can’t kill me, and is doing their job as a pvp tank disrupting past enemy lines.
Build diversity makes for a better game. If specs like that go away then all the game will be is burst damage builds and healers. People need to stop trying to kill build diversity. Diversity is what makes MMO pvp better than shooters.
Build diversity is whats been killing pvp for some time, having nearly unkillable tanks that purely just get res and sit on flags coupled with healers with sword and board makes pvp slow, grindy and not fun for everyone else that isn’t running in a zerg or a ball group, at one stage when the game was more skill based before broken sets, there wasnt enough cp to play those builds
Well CPs are definitely a culprit. In BGs I can take anyone down solo, healer or not. It’s only solo in the CP campaign that I’ve run into stalemates against tanky opponents.
How much of this is people specing full tank and then not being able to kill anyone?Edited by Iskiab on December 29, 2019 6:23PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don’t see a problem with someone using sword and board for defense. I mean, isn’t that the point?
I think at this point this is just another part of the merry go round request for nerfs without understanding the issue.
The only class I’ve seen that can successfully even use S&B is stamwarden, besides them people give up too much and lack burst. As a mag you give up cross healing, as stam you give up burst. Seems balanced to me.
This. For *** hell's sake, so much this. People need to stop talking about *** they have no experience in playing, on both sides -- played with, and played against.2 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don’t see a problem with someone using sword and board for defense. I mean, isn’t that the point?
I think at this point this is just another part of the merry go round request for nerfs without understanding the issue.
The only class I’ve seen that can successfully even use S&B is stamwarden, besides them people give up too much and lack burst. As a mag you give up cross healing, as stam you give up burst. Seems balanced to me.
This. For *** hell's sake, so much this. People need to stop talking about *** they have no experience in playing, on both sides -- played with, and played against.
Yea, there’s definitely a pattern here:
Uses S&B or Stam who only use resolving vigor: nerf cross healing,
Tanky specs and uses S&B: tank meta sucks, I can’t kill anyone
The people having the biggest issue with the tank meta are tanks, or people who don’t get DKs and fall for their counter punch.
The people who refuse to refuse to use abilities that heal others complain about cross healing.
These are all choices by those players contributing to their problem. Resolving vigor is only really required by classes with weak self healing.Edited by Iskiab on December 29, 2019 6:34PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don’t see a problem with someone using sword and board for defense. I mean, isn’t that the point?
I think at this point this is just another part of the merry go round request for nerfs without understanding the issue.
The only class I’ve seen that can successfully even use S&B is stamwarden, besides them people give up too much and lack burst. As a mag you give up cross healing, as stam you give up burst. Seems balanced to me.
This. For *** hell's sake, so much this. People need to stop talking about *** they have no experience in playing, on both sides -- played with, and played against.
Yea, there’s definitely a pattern here:
Uses S&B or Stam who only use resolving vigor: nerf cross healing,
Tanky specs and uses S&B: tank meta sucks, I can’t kill anyone
The people having the biggest issue with the tank meta are tanks, or people who don’t get DKs and fall for their counter punch.
The people who refuse to refuse to use abilities that heal others complain about cross healing.
These are all choices by those players contributing to their problem. Resolving vigor is only really required by classes with weak self healing.
I think there are a lot of dimensions to the problem but among them this is definitely a hidden element of perspective problems along with missing context (like tanking with respect to what context).
Another large contributing factor at a pvp level is to do with players being newer versus experienced, and the perspective that brings. Especially in pvp as well, you have crowds who place a strong emphasis on grouping or zerg dynamics, which has starkly different requirements than engaging Solo or small group.The Tomb of FPS Alteration Magic - Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Praise Malacath.1 -
CompM4s✭✭✭✭✭The bad player is the one that cant figure out how to kill someone with a shield... then makes nerf threads0 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭The bad player is the one that cant figure out how to kill someone with a shield... then makes nerf threads
I use sword and board on some of my builds lmao and watching someone spam execute whilst im on 15% health as I block cast burst heals pulling me out of execute makes me think how badly the other player has been robbed of the kill, only burning light from templars can kill a sword and board with weak burst heals1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭The bad player is the one that cant figure out how to kill someone with a shield... then makes nerf threads
The bad player is the one that can't figure out how to time their blocks to enemy attacks, so they just hold the block button down as long as possible.Retired until we break the Tank Meta1 -
Raudgrani✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm yet to see an "unkillable tank" that actually kills decent players, or does anything worse than draw aggro and heal allies.
That is the problem. Healers who can provide strong heals for their allies while themselves being nigh unkillable is just bad design. Either you are a tank who can stay alive forever but provide some buffs/debuffs or a healer who can keep 20 other people alive but explode the moment someone looks at you weird. Not the mix of two.
You are not wrong. But also, when the tank is seeing some abuse, they can share less healing with their allies - eventually their allies dies, and if people actually bother doing it, the tank can be killed too. The game is not supposed to be easy, and we also have the fable of "equality". Some players are better than others, and if they decide to make a very specific single purpose build, it will be hard to kill them.
I was in a group, facing a smaller enemy group with a guy often called "best healer Xbox EU" way back. The tower itself collapsed, but they did not. We could kill but a few of them, if we coordinated ulti drops etc. - but eventually, they were resurrected. In the end we left them alone, there was like no actual reason to even try; besides pride perhaps. They were no threat whatsoever, but "tower farmers". We were ridiculed, humiliated - thanks to ONE vamp/lizard/templar healer.
I have never been a very good healer, and never had any of these ultra tanky healers; but I have seen what difference it makes with a dedicated decent healer. I was in light armor, S&B/resto - and used this mystic bond on a friend. I literally spammed heal on us until my hands were aching, facing a pretty good group of 5-6 DC enemies. When they decided/realized I had to go down in order for them to kill us, I died in perhaps 40 seconds, and she died in like 4 seconds after that. But again, there was no reason to kill us, besides that we were of another alliance of course. We simply ran into them by accident and had to fight.
Wall of text, with point being: This if often the case, it doesn't fill any strategic purpose to kill these healtanks, but you want to because they are annoying. Very annoying. In bigger fights that really matters, these tanks are not nearly as much of a problem.
I'm yet to see any ultra tanky dude, that actually manages to kill me so many times, that I'm ready to consider it a problem. I'm not saying I'm some professional elite ESO PVP'er, but I have never been running into any of these. Some people I can't kill, but they sure as **** don't kill me either.0
