PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Non-Class Combat Changes

ZOS_GinaBruno · September 2018

This is the official feedback thread for combat changes that do not affect any of the 5 classes. Please try out the combat changes on the PTS first before providing feedback in this thread. Thank you!

Tsukiino · September 2018

[PvE Scenario]

I'm not sure which category this would go in, but this regards the "changing skills while in combat" fix/revert.

This is an amazing feature that was added in Wolfhunter. It's probably one of the best QoL things to happen. The ability to change your skills on your bar while in combat is very useful. Majority of time you will forget to slot a certain skill that is crucial to your situation, and being able to change it while the fight goes because you pulled accidentally, or someone else pulled is fantastic. I know the counter-argument will be, why didn't you slot it beforehand? Well accidents happen, and being able to change it really fast comes in handy, and as a console player, we already have the short end of the stick when it comes to QoL and game performance.

Through many groups I've been with in random trials, so many of them were happy to learn about this little change. Majority of people were basically saying "That's awesome!" because they too know the struggle of being in a raid, and not having the correct skill on & potentially wasting vitality/time because the only way to change the skill is for your entire group to wipe.

So I beg of you, don't change this! Keep this!

John_Falstaff · September 2018

Magicka folks on PTS, could you run a few rounds of vMA and see how shields feel with 1s cast time? I have a feeling that it's a disaster in making.

Mayrael · September 2018

1s shields cast? Why? Because light armor users were the easiest targets to kill we need to nerf them even more? With servers like we have in PvP casting a shileld will take over 2s. Even if it will go perfectly smooth its pointless now, because all you need to do is to weave 1 skill and 1 LA to break this shield and this takes less than a 1s. GJ, but I'll pass this time.

Darkmage1337 · September 2018

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435633/pts-patch-notes-v4-2-0

Medium Armor
-Agility: Increased the Weapon Damage bonus to 7/15% from 6/12%.
THAT'S IT?!?!
R.I.P. hopes & dreams for Medium Armor passive for Physical Penetration.

Mayrael · September 2018

Tsukiino wrote: »

[PvE Scenario]

I'm not sure which category this would go in, but this regards the "changing skills while in combat" fix/revert.

This is an amazing feature that was added in Wolfhunter. It's probably one of the best QoL things to happen. The ability to change your skills on your bar while in combat is very useful. Majority of time you will forget to slot a certain skill that is crucial to your situation, and being able to change it while the fight goes because you pulled accidentally, or someone else pulled is fantastic. I know the counter-argument will be, why didn't you slot it beforehand? Well accidents happen, and being able to change it really fast comes in handy, and as a console player, we already have the short end of the stick when it comes to QoL and game performance.

Through many groups I've been with in random trials, so many of them were happy to learn about this little change. Majority of people were basically saying "That's awesome!" because they too know the struggle of being in a raid, and not having the correct skill on & potentially wasting vitality/time because the only way to change the skill is for your entire group to wipe.

So I beg of you, don't change this! Keep this!

Not to mention "STUCK IN COMBAT" bug in PvP which happens all the time. At least we could use Equilibrum from mages guild to scuicide easier (its the only usage of this skill).

Monsieur · September 2018

I thought there were going to be improvements to sustain this patch? Or was that a pipe dream...

Karm1cOne · September 2018

On destructable gates/bridges: the repair kits heal too much. 1 person in 30 seconds can fix the gate or bridge to be passable, but takes several siege much longer to destroy. Adjust the repairs the kits heal by maybe 50%.

olsborg · September 2018

Medium Armor: While I apreciate you trying to buff it somewhat...what it needs is a snare and root immunity durations increase to atleast 8s per cast, the skill itself costs 3.8k+ so please see reason:)

WreckfulAbandon · September 2018

25% AoE reduction is entirely too much to just give out like candy to builds. That's the bread and butter of classes like Stamplar and Stamden. Why all the indirect NB buffs??? Heavy armor bleedblade can shrug off even more damage now while dishing out plenty. It should be 15% AoE reduction for Major Evasion and 5% for Minor.

Also, Leki's (25% AoE reduction set) needs to be brought in line with the new Evasion system. Otherwise we will have heavy armor bleedblades running around with 50% AoE reduction shredding people left and right.

5 pc Fury/7th
5 pc Leki's
2 pc Troll King/BS

^ That's what I'm running if Leki's stacks with Major Evasion. It needs to be the same buff and not stack, and Major Evasion needs to be brought down to 15% or 10%. Or the above build will be leagues above any other setup in nearly every scenario.

weedgenius · September 2018

Tsukiino wrote: »

[PvE Scenario]

I'm not sure which category this would go in, but this regards the "changing skills while in combat" fix/revert.

This is an amazing feature that was added in Wolfhunter. It's probably one of the best QoL things to happen. The ability to change your skills on your bar while in combat is very useful.

Hahaha, I agree completely. I saw this note and was like NOOOO! Especially because on my Magblade I end up "in combat" A LOT even when I'm not in combat.

Also I was hoping to see something interesting happen with frost destro staves/frost damage generally but perhaps next time.

Gnortranermara · September 2018

Overall, this is a great patch with phenomenal changes.

There is one exception: the changes to shields.

There were 4 changes to shields in this patch:

Subject to Crit
Subject to armor/penetration
Longer duration
Cast time

Being critable and subject to armor/penetration are great changes. This is an effective nerf in PvP (as desired by devs) while simultaneously buffing in PvE. Really, really great change. Longer duration is another great buff.

So far so good.

But this cast time nerf is no bueno.

A cast time on a defensive ability is counter-productive for the same reason that it was counterproductive when Templar Healing Ritual had a cast time. Cast times are incompatible with "emergency" skills! Burst heals and wards are "emergency" skills. Our "oh sh...." button needs to work instantly!

The devs claim they wanted shields to be more useful to tanks. Cast times are not useful to tanks. This change contradicts the stated development goal.

Luckily, this is easily fixable in a way that can meet developer goals and balance the buffs that shields received.

Remove the cast times.
Reverse the duration change to bring shields down to 4 seconds.

That will make shielding a proactive measure used only as needed when big incoming damage is expected. The cast will be instant and will need to be more strategically timed. The requirement to use strategic timing and cast more frequently (more magicka drain) is sufficient to balance the buff received (in PvE) and is far less punishing than the cast time in all kinds of content. The cast time is simply too big of a nerf in PvP, especially when combined with the other PvP-related nerfs. I don't even use shields in PvP, but the people who do don't deserve that big of a nerf. Shields are not OP and are easy enough for a competent player to overcome already, and will be even easier to melt after the crit/pen changes. Adding a cast time to them destroys an entire playstyle and reduces diversity.

Finally, one more thing: Templar Sun Shield needs a magicka-scaling morph. The health-based morphs are useless for the overwhelming majority of us.

Starlock · September 2018

I'm a console player, so I can't use PTS, but here are some things I'm seeing that I'm liking:

Damage shields get your physical/spell resistances. As a mostly PvE player, this will be amazing! It will make tanking using damage shields a bit easier and more effective.
Making dodging reactive. I anticipate this will cause some problems in lag-strewn Cyrodiil, but overall, anything that helps make dodge rolling less over tuned is a good change in the long run.
Removing passive dodge chance. While I have mixed feelings about this (as well as the other changes to dodge), I think it's generally a positive direction. I never liked the randomness of the passive dodge, so I think I'll use it more with this change.
Impulse damage increase. Finally! I love this ability, but it always felt so lackluster on the damage side given its relatively high cost.
Increased shield durations. I really miss my 20 second sorc shield, but I'll take an increase in duration at the expense of a cast time. It'll create some interesting possibilities.

Again, I can't test any of this myself, so I defer to you folks who can in terms of how these changes "feel," but on the whole, liking what I see (but that's usual... haha).

arkansas_ESO · September 2018

I have no clue what you were planning with the shield changes. Shields already melt like butter in PVP unless you're stacking Sorcerer's Hardened Ward with Light Armor's Annulment; all you've done is force me back into building for resistances (AKA "equip heavy armor") if I want to have the ability to survive anything more than a NPC attacking me.

If the goal was to make light armor more appealing in PVP, it was a failure.

FrancisCrawford · September 2018

The destruction of shield-reliant playstyles overshadows everything else. The other changes are noise-level compared to that.

ak_pvp · September 2018

olsborg wrote: »

Medium Armor: While I apreciate you trying to buff it somewhat...what it needs is a snare and root immunity durations increase to atleast 8s per cast, the skill itself costs 3.8k+ so please see reason:)

Lol no. Never do this. The speed meta is way too strong, shuffle can be unchained for a lower cost too.

Snare removal, root removal (+2s immunity like roll) and a 50% snare reduction for 20s. Lowered to 3k base.
Snares reduced to 30% and 10% maj/min to combat expd, reducable but not totally removable as that isn't how balance works. Also means its better for slow classes.

Ertosi · September 2018

Tsukiino wrote: »

[PvE Scenario]

I'm not sure which category this would go in, but this regards the "changing skills while in combat" fix/revert.

This is an amazing feature that was added in Wolfhunter. It's probably one of the best QoL things to happen. The ability to change your skills on your bar while in combat is very useful. Majority of time you will forget to slot a certain skill that is crucial to your situation, and being able to change it while the fight goes because you pulled accidentally, or someone else pulled is fantastic. I know the counter-argument will be, why didn't you slot it beforehand? Well accidents happen, and being able to change it really fast comes in handy, and as a console player, we already have the short end of the stick when it comes to QoL and game performance.

Through many groups I've been with in random trials, so many of them were happy to learn about this little change. Majority of people were basically saying "That's awesome!" because they too know the struggle of being in a raid, and not having the correct skill on & potentially wasting vitality/time because the only way to change the skill is for your entire group to wipe.

So I beg of you, don't change this! Keep this!

I have a hard time believing that this was ever a feature, rather it must have been an unintended side-effect of reworking the skill system to make respecing easier.

EOS has always been firm on never allowing you to swap out skills while in combat, other than switching between your main bar and back bar. Forgetting to slot a certain skill before a fight means you are stuck with what you have until the fight is over. Being able to swap out skills willie-nillie should have never been a thing as its just far to prone to exploitation.

Shinshadow · September 2018

Let me get this straight..

It now reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 1/2/4% per piece of Light Armor worn, and reduces the cost of Sprint by 1/2/3% per piece of Light Armor worn.

Light Armor gets a buff, by getting medium armor's passive ability but Shuffle gets more useless than ever with no real changes to medium armor??

Welcome to ELDER SCROLLS STAVES ONLINE.

Biro123 · September 2018

Shinshadow wrote: »

Let me get this straight..

It now reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 1/2/4% per piece of Light Armor worn, and reduces the cost of Sprint by 1/2/3% per piece of Light Armor worn.

Light Armor gets a buff, by getting medium armor's passive ability but Shuffle gets more useless than ever with no real changes to medium armor??

Welcome to ELDER SCROLLS STAVES ONLINE.

You not notice the shield nerfs? Light armour is all but dead. Heavy or nothing now.

umagon · September 2018

I think changes are a good start in correcting the issue with builds having extreme amounts of offense and defense at the same time. It is good to see this finally be addressed. If players want to have more survivability then they need to build for it. Not have passive dodge, ridiculous shields, etc while at the same time having 40k+ resource pools, 3k+ spell/weapon damage with absurd amounts of burst damage. It’s gone on long enough.

BrokenGameMechanics · September 2018

Shinshadow wrote: »

Let me get this straight..

It now reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 1/2/4% per piece of Light Armor worn, and reduces the cost of Sprint by 1/2/3% per piece of Light Armor worn.

Light Armor gets a buff, by getting medium armor's passive ability but Shuffle gets more useless than ever with no real changes to medium armor??

FWIW,

Medium Armor
Agility: Increased the Weapon Damage bonus to 7/15% from 6/12%.

Also too early for me to tell net-net the 15% rng passive dodge is to a constant 25% AOE reduction. I mean I'm still going to drop dead most of the time from direct hit Dawn Breaker, Eye Of Flame, bath of Siege Oil, or a Cold Fire hit. But too early to tell if there will be an up tic in survivability from Jabs, Steel Tornados etc...

John_Falstaff · September 2018

Problem is, we already had "a good start" in Wolfhunter, with lots of upbeat announcements, promises there'll be more, and "next time reps will have been working with ZOS whole update cycle". Then we had a good start before in Summerset. Then we had a good start during update before. Those good starts are so exciting, I just can't wait for the next good start in a few months.

BrokenGameMechanics · September 2018

umagon wrote: »

I think changes are a good start in correcting the issue with builds having extreme amounts of offense and defense at the same time. It is good to see this finally be addressed. If players want to have more survivability then they need to build for it. Not have passive dodge, ridiculous shields, etc while at the same time having 40k+ resource pools, 3k+ spell/weapon damage with absurd amounts of burst damage. It’s gone on long enough.

Though my Evasion spamming toon is taking the BOHICA on this one, I agree with you. And I'm not sure the AOE and Agility passive damage buffs are a net win for me here or losing passive dodge is a net loss. But its clear to see the from a high level it's more glass for more cannon. OK that makes sense, and I'll take the risk reward that that entails. Good changes overall. I do get the sense ZOS will continue tune and re-tune here to continue to try and get it right in an expeditious manner than in the past. So I'm in for the roller coaster ride.

AceAegis · September 2018

Can we make all healing abilities scale off of max stat in a similar manner to the way ultimates function? I would like have a stamdk/stamplar burst heal option since shuffle will be dropped in exchange for blade cloak/forward momentum.

joaaocaampos · September 2018

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Damage Shield changes

The best way, the best solution.

Instead of increasing cast time to 1 second, the cost should be increased. Healing Ritual is an example: the ability had 1 sec cast time and now is instant cast, with increased cost.

Annulment costs have been increased to 7290 Magicka from 4590 Magicka. That is, an increase of 59%.
Conjured Ward costs have been increased to 5580 (+59%), 5890 (+68%) or 6210 (+77%) Magicka from 3510 Magicka. Respectively, the Empowered Ward cost would be 5570, 5440 or 5740.

Unfortunately, something needs to be done. Increased cost has worked before, may work again. No shield spam!

If you want increased cost, press "Agree".
If you want cast time, press "Insightful".

Qbiken · September 2018

Major Evasion is too strong in it´s current state. I suggest lowering major evasion to 15% damage mitigation against AoE abilities. Certain abilities like templar´s jabs is considered an AoE ability and evasion becomes more or less a hardcounter towards that ability.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2018

I actually like the changes to damage shields, though I didn't see notes about Steadfast Ward being changed the same so was that missed?

Here are the pros and cons...

Pros:
1) Resistances applying before damage shields benefits everyone. This is great.
2) Duration of damage shields was too short before requiring doing almost nothing else. Now you can do other things in a rotation.
3) This will make damage shields also help the Light of Cyrodiil set with the damage reduction while casting, as another cast time skill to use.

Cons:
1) Cast time is interruptable. It's not any longer really than the animation was in actual usage, but it does have that slight vulnerability. Getting interrupted while using Light of Cyrodiil though is less of an issue then.

That's right; I only came up with 1 single "con" on that list that I can think of and 3 easy "pros".
The only question is will damage shield strength change with the duration change or will the resistance changes be enough to compensate so that they can possibly last the entire duration. I hope that is the justification for the resistance changes.

Edit:
I'll have to wait and see the shield strength to comment about the shield crit issue, but at least impenetrable helps with that. I don't like it forcing impenetrable even more though.
At this point, I think we just need pvp gear and stats different from and separate from pve like DC Universe did years ago.
The cast time isn't a bad thing though on shields with what we get for it and the Light of Cyrodiil set option.

Mystrius_Archaion · September 2018

I also like the evasion change. A random chance to dodge never felt worth it to me to try even though when it worked it would be amazingly powerful dodging 100% of the hit.
I prefer a constant tangible benefit, which is why critical chance and especially critical magnitude don't really appeal to me as much also.

I think 25% to match what Blade Cloak already gave, since it was common enough and wasn't an issue I ever saw complaints about the defense of, is a good idea. I like that number for the major evasion.
If it does get a nerf, I don't think it should be below final value of 20% damage reduction or it wouldn't be worth the "major" descriptor and would go back to likely being a useless skill for whatever grants it while immediately nerfing Blade Cloak from what it has been.

Soris · September 2018

How about making major/minor evasion a proc based buff 15% of chance procs 25% aoe mitigation for 4 seconds on 6 second cooldown.

100% uptime on 25% AoE reduction is too much. Permanent direct counter to half of the skills in game is way too op. And it stacks with major protection which is already easily accessible. Together they make close to 50% dmg reduction before blocking and resist/crit resist. Heavy armor users can also use this buff through blade cloak. I dont think we need more super tanky heavy stamina builds in cyrodiil. Even dw magcika builds can use this buff.

Remove the buff from blade cloak and let it only accessible from medium armor skill as intended to help medium survivability.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@Soris , I'll agree, ability that doesn't promote player skilll/reflexes/awareness, like shields do (or used to, I'm tempted to say) looks ugly and artless.

That said, removing defense from Blade Cloak will just kill it. It just received damage nerf.

Soris · September 2018

Pirate skeleton + ripostle + blade cloak on dw magplar.. I will never die again lmao. But i will never put people in execute range with sweeps dawnbreaker purifying light combo. /facepalm

If the buff remain in blade cloak, we will see dw become fotm once again for both magicka and stamina.