Enough of the conceited guild leaders

blumac81 · February 2018

I've had it with the conceited guild leaders in ESO cyrodil (specifically PC NA Vivec). I dunno if other formats suffer this but I have noticed that the majority of the guilds seem to have leaders who on discord bully their guild members to get results. This is not acceptable! Calling people names is not an effective means of motivation, just boot them. Dehuminization and shaming are NOT ways to encourage your guild members to do what you want them to do. Try POSITIVE reinforcement, rewarding what they do well and ignoring what they fail at. I know it's hard to imagine but I envision a mature cyrodil with socially intelligent guild leaders, and it can happen, I have certainly seen it done, but it's like 1/100 guild leaders. There is no need to shame your guild members or group members to get them to do what you want them to do, no exceptions, we are all humans behind computers, and don't forget that.

Kartalin · February 2018

I’m guessing this was a pick up group and some people weren’t on crown or anywhere near crown.

Correct response would not be berating but simply removing people from the group who aren’t participating in the group, possibly blocking these people so they don’t end up in group again.

blumac81 · February 2018

It was not a pick up group, I was in it for 6 mos. Won't name names

Thogard · February 2018

I feel bad for a lot of those guild leaders. The guilds tbat take anyone and win through large numbers tend to get bad reputations among better players because they tend to lose fights even when they outnumber their opponents.

I’m not surprised to hear that they snap occasionally.

CyrusArya · February 2018

Guild leaders can act like that when their charge are dime a dozen beta lemmings. That stuff wont float in more selective or skilled guilds where everyone in the roster is seen as an asset rather than fodder.

At any rate, leaders like that do not inspire or attract confidence and so their guilds tend to be on farm. So really, their behavior only hurts themselves.

the_broo11 · February 2018

I haven't noticed this on Xbox. On the other hand, I don't exactly pay attention to this type of stuff, so I can't comment to the direct topic. I will note one thing though:

blumac81 wrote: »

Try POSITIVE reinforcement, rewarding what they do well and ignoring what they fail at.

Following the bold portion of this recommendation will be doing a disservice to the members of the guild. Of course there are good/bad ways of acknowledging weaknesses (which is perhaps what you are getting at by saying this), but ignoring the weakness is no better than the latter (assuming the guild members are trying to compete in pvp).

Nestor · February 2018

There are lots of guilds out there. Just find one that fits with what you want and how you want to be treated.

VaranisArano · February 2018

I joined my current PVP guild because they were willing to pick me up and train me when I was just a PUG trailing at their heels because they were a group that looked like they knew what they were doing. I've stayed with them for over a year because the guild leaders that put the time and effort in to lead by example and to be leaders worth emulating while still having fun.

Lieblingsjunge · February 2018

Tough love. Tough love. Gotta' show'm the Tough Love.

MLRPZ · February 2018

What if I roleplay a goat and like to get spanked ?

Reverb · February 2018

I understand how leading pvp groups every day could push someone over the edge, I really do. And I've been in guilds where the GM or raid leader has gotten really openly pissed off, at the game, at the map, at our alliance or opponents. And light mockery and ribbing within the guilds are commonplace. But I've never been part of a guild where the leaders yell at, threaten, or generally bully their own members. I don't think that's tolerated in most guilds.

BUT, I do have the GMs of 2 prominent DC guilds on ignore because of their toxic behavior in zone, and I've heard from many people that they are even worse to their own members. I would bet good money the guild you're talking about is one of them.

Ego and Id are part and parcel of pvp, but ragey leaders are the minority. You should have no problem finding a guild that suits you better.

Also - ignoring things your team does poorly is not the mark of a good leader. People need to know what they're doing wrong, and be shown a path to improvement. That's how teams get better.

Sandman929 · February 2018

Reverb wrote: »

I understand how leading pvp groups every day could push someone over the edge, I really do. And I've been in guilds where the GM or raid leader has gotten really openly pissed off, at the game, at the map, at our alliance or opponents. And light mockery and ribbing within the guilds are commonplace. But I've never been part of a guild where the leaders yell at, threaten, or generally bully their own members. I don't think that's tolerated in most guilds.

BUT, I do have the GMs of 2 prominent DC guilds on ignore because of their toxic behavior in zone, and I've heard from many people that they are even worse to their own members. I would bet good money the guild you're talking about is one of them.

Ego and Id are part and parcel of pvp, but ragey leaders are the minority. You should have no problem finding a guild that suits you better.

Also - ignoring things your team does poorly is not the mark of a good leader. People need to know what they're doing wrong, and be shown a path to improvement. That's how teams get better.

Agreed. I'm not a GM, but do act as a raid lead regularly for a guild and it's a sometimes frustrating role, but there's never any reason to be abusive. Blunt, occasionally, assertive definitely. Just getting chatter to subside and focus from a team requires assertiveness fairly often.
My daughter sometimes listens during a run and says "you're so mean to your friends", but my guild mates know it all comes from love. We all have a better night when we do well, and making sure we do well is largely the leads responsibility.
OP's experience doesn't sound like a pleasant one, but the other side of that coin is that a GM or lead has a specific direction in mind for the guild, and if guild members aren't on board with that direction there's friction and frustration. I'm sure there are some GM's out there who don't communicate and work through those frustrations well.

NinchiTV · February 2018

Been playing on xbox NA since the beta and i honestly cant think of ONE guild leader who is truly toxic like what OP said. TBH if somebody was treated like that they should be smart enough to not put up with that and leave, and other members/officers should call that out. Unless its a really REALLY good guild i dont think most people would put up with that.

MLRPZ · February 2018

ahem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zczxd8isk2s

Thogard · February 2018

Hmm well I am a guild leader and I’m quite conceited so I’ll give you that.

ZOS_Mika · February 2018

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Vermintide · March 2018

That's just the kind of people you are gonna get sadly.

Think about it. Most of the mature, socially well-adjusted folks have more than likely just got other ways they would prefer to spend time, rather than playing drill sergeant in Discord.

Same as with trial guilds, if you are a GM of a "serious" guild you are probably a tryhard by default. And if you're that emotionally invested, you're probably gonna get pretty salty from time to time.

idk · March 2018

Kartalin wrote: »

I’m guessing this was a pick up group and some people weren’t on crown or anywhere near crown.

Correct response would not be berating but simply removing people from the group who aren’t participating in the group, possibly blocking these people so they don’t end up in group again.

While I have not seen this since the first year of the game, maybe I am lucky, the best course of action is to find another group. Maybe form ones own and start the type of group you would like to be in.

Aztlan · March 2018

That is good advice.

These kinds of leaders are shooting themselves in the foot, because sooner or later they will start losing good people (who might be some of their best, most loyal players). I've seen it happen.

ktdotexe · March 2018

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Datthaw · March 2018

I've been lucky, All my guilds are very pleasant. Even my dueling guild on pc na, I'm sure some people know which one, where you would expect a slightly more toxic atmosphere is very pleasant. I've been in one guild where the chat was just very angry and offensive, so...I just left. Nobody's got time for that bull crap.

NyassaV · March 2018

It sounds like both parties likely have it coming to be honest

ktdotexe · March 2018

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SugaComa · March 2018

While I get the sentiment I have to say ... First your definition of conceited is very different from mine by the sounds of it , also positive re-enforcement as a motivator is bad, it's how you train a dog, also ignoring people's weaknesses is bad, what you should be doing is identifying those weaknesses and coaching them, allow them to play to their strengths but understand their weaknesses.

Teams win or fail on the success of the team not on the individuals in the team as long as the team has good strong bond , are engaged in what they do and can compliment each other (doesn't mean tell each other they look pretty) the team will do well and succeed

Awareness and communication are key

And if a guild leader does this well then being a little conceited is ok seeing as it stems from a feeling of proudness ... It's only when that display of proudness becomes obnoxious is deemed conceited

CatchMeTrolling · March 2018

Was a guild leader like for the first few months and I was pretty chill , wouldn’t even know I was guild leader because I let someone else do most of the talking until actual combat. I feel like if you’re going to lead you can’t put yourself on a pedestal but somehow make the people that follow you feel equal but they still have your respect. It can be annoying if you’re taking on new players and they don’t know how to listen but at the end of the day how you respond is a test of your leadership.

I don’t care much about guilds, the last one I “actively” played in was a solo/small scale guild, sadly those types are like a myth. That’s the only type of guild I’d be interested to lead (especially with no aoe caps) but it’s so hard to find people who want to small scale now.

DeadlyRecluse · March 2018

If the raid lead is happy with the performance they get out of their leadership style, whatever.

If you aren't happy with the style, leave the group. If it's a pug group, remember the leader/pick up tag and avoid it in the future.

Thogard · March 2018

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Was a guild leader like for the first few months and I was pretty chill , wouldn’t even know I was guild leader because I let someone else do most of the talking until actual combat. I feel like if you’re going to lead you can’t put yourself on a pedestal but somehow make the people that follow you feel equal but they still have your respect. It can be annoying if you’re taking on new players and they don’t know how to listen but at the end of the day how you respond is a test of your leadership.

I don’t care much about guilds, the last one I “actively” played in was a solo/small scale guild, sadly those types are like a myth. That’s the only type of guild I’d be interested to lead (especially with no aoe caps) but it’s so hard to find people who want to small scale now.

I’ve had a lot of luck finding good small scalers by talking to the better players of the BGs and bringing them out into cyrodil. The good players learn fast that the positional strategies are quite different when you’re fighting significantly larger numbers...

A small scale guild is hard though because you can’t, by definition, let it get large... it’s definitely not something you’d want to advertise.

Ley · March 2018

I like to pvp with an effective group. That being said, the moment I stop liking the tone of the group I'm playing with, even if it's not directed at me, I leave. I'm not about to get on a game to be bossed around by someone or listen to someone barking orders.

My favorite pvp guild that I'm in has earned its place as my favorite because they don't tell you how to play, they are extremely laid back, friendly and still highly effective.

CatchMeTrolling · March 2018

Thogard wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Was a guild leader like for the first few months and I was pretty chill , wouldn’t even know I was guild leader because I let someone else do most of the talking until actual combat. I feel like if you’re going to lead you can’t put yourself on a pedestal but somehow make the people that follow you feel equal but they still have your respect. It can be annoying if you’re taking on new players and they don’t know how to listen but at the end of the day how you respond is a test of your leadership.

I don’t care much about guilds, the last one I “actively” played in was a solo/small scale guild, sadly those types are like a myth. That’s the only type of guild I’d be interested to lead (especially with no aoe caps) but it’s so hard to find people who want to small scale now.

I’ve had a lot of luck finding good small scalers by talking to the better players of the BGs and bringing them out into cyrodil. The good players learn fast that the positional strategies are quite different when you’re fighting significantly larger numbers...

A small scale guild is hard though because you can’t, by definition, let it get large... it’s definitely not something you’d want to advertise.

A lot of people are already in guilds and when they are in cyrodiil they usually zerg surf. The amount of small scalers on my platform has drastically decreased over the last year. The ones that will barely play or on a different alliance.

I know in my last one I usually played by myself or with one other person unless we had to crown an emp and of course emp groups.

One of the players I was 2v cyrodiiling hasn’t been on lately so now I’m usually across the map by myself or trying to defend an enemies home keep with like 2 random people.

GreenhaloX · March 2018

Thogard wrote: »

Hmm well I am a guild leader and I’m quite conceited so I’ll give you that.

Definitely a life's achievement to strive for.. Hey, if being such on ESO gives someone such meaning and purpose; well, so be it.

Ehh, personally, for me, guilds are just good for the traders. Although, it does seem to be a social club for many others; which is cool, for an alternate non-real life social venue. Whatever works and gets you through your day or evening. For PvP, you can still fair just fine without being in a guild or group. That, and one of the reasons I don't join in a group; just lots of holiness than you complex and other salty attitudes.

shaielzafine · March 2018

Hi Bluma, I know what you mean.

a mature cyrodil with socially intelligent guild leaders

would be really nice but it's usually the opposite and it gets really toxic on discords & zone chat esp. in Vivec (PC NA). I'm pretty sure I know at least one of the people you're talking about, since we ran in the same guild for a while there. I also agree positive reinforcements are better than negative comments, borderline / actual? bullying, etc. I've been enjoying solo play & just casual zerg surfing in Cyrodiil because it's too much in guild raids sometimes. I did read the hate document / flyer you posted on discord, and then seeing this forum post now makes me wonder what happened, like were you directly messaging them or something? I think you can report if the name-calling / inappriopriate language was in game.