PTS Update 15 - Feedback Thread for Armor & Weapon Traits

ZOS_GinaBruno · July 2017

Thanks for all your feedback so far, everyone. Just letting you know we've been reading your posts and are still evaluating all changes we've made so far.

Gilliamtherogue · July 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all your feedback so far, everyone. Just letting you know we've been reading your posts and are still evaluating all changes we've made so far.

Can we get some insider scoops on how the team is feeling about the changes so far, and discussions about potential changes? We don't expect everything the team wants to get through into each patch to happen, but I think it would be super helpful to have the team be a bit more transparent with their hopes/goals with these changes; even if they don't happen right away.

dpencil1 · July 2017

Preach it, @Gilliamtherogue !
We want in on the conversation, ZOS.

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all your feedback so far, everyone. Just letting you know we've been reading your posts and are still evaluating all changes we've made so far.

Can we get some insider scoops on how the team is feeling about the changes so far, and discussions about potential changes? We don't expect everything the team wants to get through into each patch to happen, but I think it would be super helpful to have the team be a bit more transparent with their hopes/goals with these changes; even if they don't happen right away.

I Concur. Use us as a sounding board for potential ideas that you have for the future and would be willing to share. We want to work with you, rather than off you.

LordSlif · July 2017

I Still wating for changes on icestaff

tossop · July 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

tsopoci wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

tsopoci wrote: »

For pvp sharpened is 2 time worse then infused with oblivion enchant. So sharpened isnt competetive. For pve precise is 1,5x better, so also in pve isnt competetive.

This is simply not true, based on everything that is been posted, you got some evidence to support these claims?

Of course i have. Lets do some maths: Sharpened is 2700 penetration, 660 penetration is 1% damage increase which is also boosted by critical chance. Lets consider we have 40% crit. chance and 70% crit. damage bonus which is lowered by crit resist to ~40% critical damage bonus. 2700 penetration is 2700/660 ~ 4% damage increse. Now we adding crit. chance: 4%+(4*0.4*0.4)=4,6% damage increase. Lets take oblivion enchant. Its 2100 unersistable damage every 5s, which is 2100/5= 420 dps alone. Infused shorten cd by half and boosting damage by 30% so its 2100*1.3/2.5=1090 dps. Infused alone bring 670 dps. In pvp i am doing about ~5k dps when fully boosted and my dots are running. But this is often lower because of healing, ccing, dots not running etc. So sharpened is 4,6% damage increase which is about 230 dps (5000*0.046) while infused is near 3 times stronger with 670 dps and often is much stronger then 3 times. Sharpened is good only in burst scenario when dps is near 15k, but no one will have those dps in pvp.

So 670 dps from infused oblivion enchant or 230 dps from sharpened? Even i counted only 1 enchant, u can have 2-3 infused enchants which boosting infused even in better spot.

Lets take precise trait on nb or templar. Lets consider we have 80% crit. damage bonus which is reduced by crit. resistance to 50%. Precise trait give us 9% bonus to crit. chance which is 9*0.5=4,5% damage increase which is comparamble to 4,6% damage increase from sharpened. But precise also boosting healing so who will take sharpened over precise? No one.

I dont have math for nirn. but its doesnt matter, when i compare infused, sharpened and precise its something like Infused by a large margin > precise > sharpened.

In PVE where crit damage is even higher, precise trait offset sharpened even more.

Thats why i dont understand so huge nerf to sharpened, 3300 penetration is much more comparable to precise, little better damage in pvp but not boosting healing and in pve its not so bad trait like it will be with 2700 pen. And nerfing oblivion enchant by 30-50% which also helps with traits balance.

First, your "analysis" is based soley on PVP because you want to use the BS/OD problem to make your case. So this argument holds no sway over the whole PVE realm where OD is not doubled in effectiveness as it is in PVP currently.

Second, you use your actual 5k dps from pvp actual play for the sharpened side and then use straight math (perfect timing) for your infused side? that is bad logic.

Third, since your argument is based off only one DPS value, in one type of play, using one type of enchant that is currently OP... it has very little to say about the overall balance of infused vs sharpened.

While personally i do think sharpened might be a tad low at this value, no comparison using this logic will support a need for the change.

Yes i am doing only comparision from pvp perspective with broken oblivion damage. Without oblivion damage infused trait is very good balanced.

U write that infused trait is affected by timing, perfect rotations. Thats true but from my expirience i never have problem procing oblivion enchant every 5-6 sec. I can proc it from la, ha and skills, almost everything procing oblivion enchant.

From pve perspective i dont know how penetration is calculated, but somwhere i was reading thats is 330 per 1% damage. If its true sharpened is still king of the hill, if not precise is better.

From pvp perspective, if someone can get about 80% critical damage bonus which isnt so hard on nb or templar, precise is comparable to sharpened and nirnhoned. Nirnhoned i think will be best trait because isnt affected by shields. Thats why i think sharpened can have little bit bigger bonus. See u in vma.

tossop · July 2017

Aso sharpened trait doesnt boosting any bleed damage from axes, werewolf bleeds, so it will be even worse trait on bleed builds.

Lord_Eomer · July 2017

LordSlif wrote: »

I Still wating for changes on icestaff

Ice staff need some major tweaking to have viable ice tank builds @ZOS_GinaBruno
@Wrobel

Lord_Eomer · July 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for all your feedback so far, everyone. Just letting you know we've been reading your posts and are still evaluating all changes we've made so far.

Thank you @ZOS_GinaBruno for update,

Can you please give next patch sneak peek about this section!

DRXHarbinger · July 2017

@ZOS_GinaBruno Please proceed with these changes, they are actually very good. you know how critical I am and I endorse these changes 100%

STEVIL · July 2017

tsopoci wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

tsopoci wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

tsopoci wrote: »

For pvp sharpened is 2 time worse then infused with oblivion enchant. So sharpened isnt competetive. For pve precise is 1,5x better, so also in pve isnt competetive.

This is simply not true, based on everything that is been posted, you got some evidence to support these claims?

Of course i have. Lets do some maths: Sharpened is 2700 penetration, 660 penetration is 1% damage increase which is also boosted by critical chance. Lets consider we have 40% crit. chance and 70% crit. damage bonus which is lowered by crit resist to ~40% critical damage bonus. 2700 penetration is 2700/660 ~ 4% damage increse. Now we adding crit. chance: 4%+(4*0.4*0.4)=4,6% damage increase. Lets take oblivion enchant. Its 2100 unersistable damage every 5s, which is 2100/5= 420 dps alone. Infused shorten cd by half and boosting damage by 30% so its 2100*1.3/2.5=1090 dps. Infused alone bring 670 dps. In pvp i am doing about ~5k dps when fully boosted and my dots are running. But this is often lower because of healing, ccing, dots not running etc. So sharpened is 4,6% damage increase which is about 230 dps (5000*0.046) while infused is near 3 times stronger with 670 dps and often is much stronger then 3 times. Sharpened is good only in burst scenario when dps is near 15k, but no one will have those dps in pvp.

So 670 dps from infused oblivion enchant or 230 dps from sharpened? Even i counted only 1 enchant, u can have 2-3 infused enchants which boosting infused even in better spot.

Lets take precise trait on nb or templar. Lets consider we have 80% crit. damage bonus which is reduced by crit. resistance to 50%. Precise trait give us 9% bonus to crit. chance which is 9*0.5=4,5% damage increase which is comparamble to 4,6% damage increase from sharpened. But precise also boosting healing so who will take sharpened over precise? No one.

I dont have math for nirn. but its doesnt matter, when i compare infused, sharpened and precise its something like Infused by a large margin > precise > sharpened.

In PVE where crit damage is even higher, precise trait offset sharpened even more.

Thats why i dont understand so huge nerf to sharpened, 3300 penetration is much more comparable to precise, little better damage in pvp but not boosting healing and in pve its not so bad trait like it will be with 2700 pen. And nerfing oblivion enchant by 30-50% which also helps with traits balance.

First, your "analysis" is based soley on PVP because you want to use the BS/OD problem to make your case. So this argument holds no sway over the whole PVE realm where OD is not doubled in effectiveness as it is in PVP currently.

Second, you use your actual 5k dps from pvp actual play for the sharpened side and then use straight math (perfect timing) for your infused side? that is bad logic.

Third, since your argument is based off only one DPS value, in one type of play, using one type of enchant that is currently OP... it has very little to say about the overall balance of infused vs sharpened.

While personally i do think sharpened might be a tad low at this value, no comparison using this logic will support a need for the change.

Yes i am doing only comparision from pvp perspective with broken oblivion damage. Without oblivion damage infused trait is very good balanced.

U write that infused trait is affected by timing, perfect rotations. Thats true but from my expirience i never have problem procing oblivion enchant every 5-6 sec. I can proc it from la, ha and skills, almost everything procing oblivion enchant.

From pve perspective i dont know how penetration is calculated, but somwhere i was reading thats is 330 per 1% damage. If its true sharpened is still king of the hill, if not precise is better.

From pvp perspective, if someone can get about 80% critical damage bonus which isnt so hard on nb or templar, precise is comparable to sharpened and nirnhoned. Nirnhoned i think will be best trait because isnt affected by shields. Thats why i think sharpened can have little bit bigger bonus. See u in vma.

in pve pen is the same but OD does not get the de facto BS double, so OD is not overpowering the calculations.

But as you say, except for OD, infused seems about right so the issue remains OD/BS to be fixed, not everything else changed to balance that out.

nCats · July 2017

Dear @ZOS_GinaBruno ,

Having evaluated the weapon changes, I think they are very good indeed.

I would also suggest improving a few armour traits to make them more competitive for various uses. The traits concerned are Infused (the suggestion is to buff value to 30% instead of 20%), Reinforced and Nirnhoned for armour.

Kind regards,

tossop · July 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

tsopoci wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

tsopoci wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

tsopoci wrote: »

For pvp sharpened is 2 time worse then infused with oblivion enchant. So sharpened isnt competetive. For pve precise is 1,5x better, so also in pve isnt competetive.

This is simply not true, based on everything that is been posted, you got some evidence to support these claims?

Of course i have. Lets do some maths: Sharpened is 2700 penetration, 660 penetration is 1% damage increase which is also boosted by critical chance. Lets consider we have 40% crit. chance and 70% crit. damage bonus which is lowered by crit resist to ~40% critical damage bonus. 2700 penetration is 2700/660 ~ 4% damage increse. Now we adding crit. chance: 4%+(4*0.4*0.4)=4,6% damage increase. Lets take oblivion enchant. Its 2100 unersistable damage every 5s, which is 2100/5= 420 dps alone. Infused shorten cd by half and boosting damage by 30% so its 2100*1.3/2.5=1090 dps. Infused alone bring 670 dps. In pvp i am doing about ~5k dps when fully boosted and my dots are running. But this is often lower because of healing, ccing, dots not running etc. So sharpened is 4,6% damage increase which is about 230 dps (5000*0.046) while infused is near 3 times stronger with 670 dps and often is much stronger then 3 times. Sharpened is good only in burst scenario when dps is near 15k, but no one will have those dps in pvp.

So 670 dps from infused oblivion enchant or 230 dps from sharpened? Even i counted only 1 enchant, u can have 2-3 infused enchants which boosting infused even in better spot.

Lets take precise trait on nb or templar. Lets consider we have 80% crit. damage bonus which is reduced by crit. resistance to 50%. Precise trait give us 9% bonus to crit. chance which is 9*0.5=4,5% damage increase which is comparamble to 4,6% damage increase from sharpened. But precise also boosting healing so who will take sharpened over precise? No one.

I dont have math for nirn. but its doesnt matter, when i compare infused, sharpened and precise its something like Infused by a large margin > precise > sharpened.

In PVE where crit damage is even higher, precise trait offset sharpened even more.

Thats why i dont understand so huge nerf to sharpened, 3300 penetration is much more comparable to precise, little better damage in pvp but not boosting healing and in pve its not so bad trait like it will be with 2700 pen. And nerfing oblivion enchant by 30-50% which also helps with traits balance.

First, your "analysis" is based soley on PVP because you want to use the BS/OD problem to make your case. So this argument holds no sway over the whole PVE realm where OD is not doubled in effectiveness as it is in PVP currently.

Second, you use your actual 5k dps from pvp actual play for the sharpened side and then use straight math (perfect timing) for your infused side? that is bad logic.

Third, since your argument is based off only one DPS value, in one type of play, using one type of enchant that is currently OP... it has very little to say about the overall balance of infused vs sharpened.

While personally i do think sharpened might be a tad low at this value, no comparison using this logic will support a need for the change.

Yes i am doing only comparision from pvp perspective with broken oblivion damage. Without oblivion damage infused trait is very good balanced.

U write that infused trait is affected by timing, perfect rotations. Thats true but from my expirience i never have problem procing oblivion enchant every 5-6 sec. I can proc it from la, ha and skills, almost everything procing oblivion enchant.

From pve perspective i dont know how penetration is calculated, but somwhere i was reading thats is 330 per 1% damage. If its true sharpened is still king of the hill, if not precise is better.

From pvp perspective, if someone can get about 80% critical damage bonus which isnt so hard on nb or templar, precise is comparable to sharpened and nirnhoned. Nirnhoned i think will be best trait because isnt affected by shields. Thats why i think sharpened can have little bit bigger bonus. See u in vma.

in pve pen is the same but OD does not get the de facto BS double, so OD is not overpowering the calculations.

But as you say, except for OD, infused seems about right so the issue remains OD/BS to be fixed, not everything else changed to balance that out.

Only changes i recommend is nerf OD to by on par with others enchants and change sharp. from 2750 to 3300 which is only 1% more damage which helps sharpened in pve scenario where will be on par with precise. Also it helps sharpened stay in competetive range in pvp vs ninrnhoned. Also when OD got nerf i recommend looking on shield strenght, without proc sets and with lower damage from OD it will be much harder going through double stacked shields enough fast to kill mag classes. It will be clearly op like before. Nerfing shield strenght or dont allow double stack will maybe solve this problem.

LordSlif · July 2017

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

LordSlif wrote: »

I Still wating for changes on icestaff

Ice staff need some major tweaking to have viable ice tank builds @ZOS_GinaBruno
@Wrobel

Yup, they must buff i

LordSlif · July 2017

Shield expert needs changes

overclocker303b14_ESO · July 2017

Universally adjusted the values of some 1, 2, 3, and 4-piece bonus stats for all Item Sets:
Physical or Spell Penetration has been decreased by 22%

The only set I can think of that is even affected by this is Kragh's. Don't feel like it needed a nerf since the sharpened trait was already reduced significantly.

Not a huge deal but I think it might hurt newer players a bit since it is one of the easier monster sets to obtain. Aside from that I've tested a fair amount on PTS now and overall happy with the changes.

Hurika · July 2017

How about "Paper Scissors Rock" traits.....

Paper - do 1-2% more damage to targets per piece of light armor they have
Scissors - do 1-2% more damage to targets per piece of medium armor they have
Rock - do 1-2% more damage to targets per piece of heavy armor they have

Or make it a proc that fires based on the targets armor (similar to procs based on if you're an undead, etc)

It might add some diversity and allow players to improve against target they feel are hardest for them to defeat but offer little/no value to others instead of a blanket damage buff/nerf to all targets. Make/Let players choose to specialize.

ManDraKE · July 2017

overclocker303b14_ESO wrote: »

Universally adjusted the values of some 1, 2, 3, and 4-piece bonus stats for all Item Sets:
Physical or Spell Penetration has been decreased by 22%

The only set I can think of that is even affected by this is Kragh's. Don't feel like it needed a nerf since the sharpened trait was already reduced significantly.

Not a huge deal but I think it might hurt newer players a bit since it is one of the easier monster sets to obtain. Aside from that I've tested a fair amount on PTS now and overall happy with the changes.

krag's 1piece bonus is being balanced agiasnt other 1piece bonus like +wpndmg, to provide similar DPS increases, so 1 piece krags is comparable to 1 piece kena for example. The change to the sharpened trait is not related at all.

JustSnilloc · July 2017

JustSnilloc wrote: »

Also, Infused armor needs a buff too as it is currently inferior to Divines. My reasoning is the same as to why Prosperous should be buffed.

JustSnilloc wrote: »

Divines - 124 Additional Points of Stat Recovery (*with corresponding Mundus)
Divines - 1065 Additional Points of Stamina/Magicka (*with corresponding Mundus)
Infused - 800 or 900 Additonal Points of Stam/Mag or Health. (Was infused armor buffed too? 866 or 975 if it was buffed).

***I used the wrong numbers/calculations in creating the results for Infused.

Here's another suggestion having ran the numbers. Get rid of small slots for enchantments, make all armor take the full enchantment. This would be a universal buff for everyone, so nobody would gain an unfair advantage from this. What sort of numbers would this produce?

20% Infused Bonus would grant the following - Stamina/Magicka obtain an extra 1215 points, while Health receives 1336.

Therefore, I believe the best route to go is to abolish small enchantment slots for armor and make all the slots large slots. Also, keep the 20% Bonus on gold infused armor instead of raising it to 30%. Why? Because it's only by mixing Infused with Divines that your attributes can be raised to their highest possible values. Infused (armor) has one purpose, to increase your attribute value. Divines should neither be greater, nor required to reach the highest possible value.

Overall, the ramifications of this action results in everyone gaining approximately 2000 points in a single stat. Nothing game-breaking, but a nice little bonus to help builds continue doing what they are doing slightly better than before.

overclocker303b14_ESO · July 2017

ManDraKE wrote: »

krag's 1piece bonus is being balanced agiasnt other 1piece bonus like +wpndmg, to provide similar DPS increases, so 1 piece krags is comparable to 1 piece kena for example. The change to the sharpened trait is not related at all.

I disagree and would argue they are related because Kraghs and the sharpened trait both provided penetration.

Balancing sharpened so it isn't the only game in town is good because it makes other traits viable and makes weapon farming less of a grind. It also deals with the power creep that happens every time they bump the CP level. So yes they nerfed sharpened but between the CP increases in the last two patches you could take those 20 points you got and put them into piercing and be about where you were before Morrowind.

That's if you are at max level and the CP increase affects you. On the other hand, you have players that are over 160 but still far away from the CP cap and may never get there. Those players don't get those 20 extra points, and these changes are going to hurt a lot more for them. Kraghs was (and still is) a good set for those players because it is easier to get and could make up for some of the penetration they lost.

I get that they are trying to make things more equal but at the same time I would argue that monster sets are not, and probably never will be equal.

Bobby_V_Rockit · July 2017

Tag!

Ep1kMalware · July 2017

casparian wrote: »

I'm not sure Prosperous is there yet.

So wearing seven pieces of gold Prosperous gear grants 77 recovery to all three resources. So let's say I'm wearing seven Prosperous, and I have Major and Minor Endurance and Intellect. (I'll ignore health for now since health recovery isn't important on most builds.) That's right around +100 recovery to each resource. Of course, I won't be running full Prosperous. But it might be useful as an off-trait, say, coupled with five or six pieces of Impenetrable in PVP (Well-Fitted currently plays this role on many stam PVP builds).

The cost of dodge-roll on my stamplar right now is 3716 stamina. With one gold Well-Fitted piece, that would go down to 3514, saving me 202 stamina every time I dodge roll. If I switch this out for a gold Prosperous piece (and have Major and Minor Endurance and Intellect), I lose these cost savings but gain something 14 stamina and magicka every two seconds. 28 seconds will need to pass before Prosperous gives me back enough stamina to equal Well-Fitted, and since I'm dodge rolling more often than every 28 seconds during a fight in Cyrodiil, I can't see any way Prosperous can even come close to Well-Fitted for stamina sustain.

So the question is whether the additional magicka sustain is worth losing all that stamina sustain by choosing 1-piece Prosperous over 1-piece Well-Fitted. I suspect the answer is No, since 14 magicka every two seconds is not going to make a noticeable difference in how often my stamplar can cast Ritual, or how often a stamblade can cast Cloak.

But I know ZOS maths and so I'm sure they ran through these same calculations. I just don't see the use yet.

Zos doesnt math LOL.

Wabu · July 2017

The new prosperous is not bad, compared to the previous state. Maybe it's useful for builds when released. It should be improved. or a different way to manage resource pools;

(2% could be anything, just for this example)

prosperous on heavy: without holding block heavy armour has a 2% chance for to block an attack.
prosperous on medium: 2% chance to deal 2% bonus damage with light/heavy attacks.
prosperous on light: 2% chance to absorb 2% magicka from enemy spell.

The weapon trait changes look great.
Tchau

Mettaricana · July 2017

So are one handed traits adjusted with this tweak if not i see 2 handed gear falling back into a crevace again

phaneub17_ESO · July 2017

I would like to see traits have dual purpose, for both Weapons and Armor traits.

Weapons:
Decisive - In addition to having a chance to generate additional Ultimate points it should also reduce the cost of Ultimate by 10% at two-handed gold.

Powered - Can you have it affect both Healing Done and Healing Received, so even non-healers can benefit from having it.

Precise - Have it also affect Critical Strike damage by half the value.

Infused - Love it, it's already a dual purpose trait and we need to see more like it!

Armor:
Prosperous - Having it grant resource recovery is a good start, add 5% resource cost reduction as well.

Well-Fitted - Is it too much to add Bash attack as well?

Sturdy - Also increasing amount of damage blocked by half as much?

Rungar · July 2017

i like all the changes but think reinforced should be 20% and infused should be 30%

i would rather if prosperous was a jack of all trades like divines for tanks.

10% reinforced,2% sturdy, 2% well fitted (gold)

basically half of those three traits, similar to the prismatic glyph but for tanks.

Dubhliam · July 2017

@AuT6GHad
The math behind calculating DPS is not as simple as you may think.

If Sharpened reduces the boss' resistances by 4,15%, that does not equal a 4,15% DPS increase.

Please leave the calculations to the better informed, or do some extensive testing of your own before posting "statistics".

IxskullzxI · July 2017

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I would like to see traits have dual purpose, for both Weapons and Armor traits.

Weapons:
Decisive - In addition to having a chance to generate additional Ultimate points it should also reduce the cost of Ultimate by 10% at two-handed gold.

Powered - Can you have it affect both Healing Done and Healing Received, so even non-healers can benefit from having it.

Precise - Have it also affect Critical Strike damage by half the value.

Infused - Love it, it's already a dual purpose trait and we need to see more like it!

Armor:
Prosperous - Having it grant resource recovery is a good start, add 5% resource cost reduction as well.

Well-Fitted - Is it too much to add Bash attack as well?

Sturdy - Also increasing amount of damage blocked by half as much?

Wouldnt that be a huge buff for powered? I'm pretty sure healing done applies to yourself as well. If it increased healing done and healing received it would increase the heals cast in yourself by 18% with a gold 2h.

MyrddinEmrys · July 2017

Gonna put my 2¢ in:

The sharpened nerf seems a little extreme. Bring it down to 3.5k or 4k, but a 55% cut is unacceptable.

And before all the people start throwing accusations - NO, I don't have a sharpened vMA staff (I dont have any vMA staff for that matter)

Lord_Eomer · July 2017

MyrddinEmrys wrote: »

Gonna put my 2¢ in:

The sharpened nerf seems a little extreme. Bring it down to 3.5k or 4k, but a 55% cut is unacceptable.

And before all the people start throwing accusations - NO, I don't have a sharpened vMA staff (I dont have any vMA staff for that matter)

Better not be lying? one wolf in skin of sharpen