One more very important thing to consider...

How equal will it be if someone using difficulty just takes a hit or two and lets someone not using difficulty do the rest of the work to defeat the enemy, then walks away with their better rewards? And I can forsee that happening.

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

First of all this is not a vet issue. Players choosing difficulty are not all vets and not all vets will choose difficulty. It's a matter of personal preference. I'm a vet and I never intend to even try difficulty.

Second, the enemies aren't changing. Everyone will be fighting the same enemies just as we do now. It's logical that the same enemies will drop the same rewards for everyone as they do now. If a level 30 and a CP 3600 both fight and defeat the same enemy they will both get rewards from the same loot table. The CP 3600 doesn't get higher quality rewards because they are a vet, and the level 30 doesn't get higher quality rewards because it was harder for them to defeat.

Rewards aren't based on how hard it is for each individual to defeat. It's the same exact enemies so they should drop the same exact rewards for everyone.

I don't think vets should be treated differently, which means any player should not receive increased rewards for fighting the same exact enemies as everyone else just because they chose to make the fight more difficult for themselves.

It's not the same enemies. The modifier is on the player simply, so others don't have to deal with it. But changing either the player or the enemy results in the same thing. The fight takes longer and is a more difficult version. It's like going from normal to vet.

Vets would be treated differently if there was not increased rewards. They would have a more difficult fight that takes longer for less rewards than those doing it on normal.

An enemy whose heavy attack cannot kill you and dies in 5 seconds is fundamentally a different fight than an enemy whose heavy attack will one shot you and who takes 2 minutes to kill. You can ignore the non-lethal mechanic in normal, but most follow it on hard. This is not different than the dungeons.

The modifier was on the player instead of the enemy simply so that people who wanted to opt out didn't have to fight the harder enemy. If the changed the enemy instead of the player, as many people wanted, they'd have to either separate the two groups or force everyone into the same fights. Things that many casual players asked them not to do. This comes with drawbacks to the challenge mode such as not being able to offer new mechanics. A drawback added to the challenge mode specifically to make things nicer for the casual players should not then be used as a reason to treat vets questers differently to everyone else.

All other gameplay modes have their own rewards. Excluding vet players from literally any rewards would be penalizing them.

It's pure math and objective.

If takes me 10 seconds to kill an enemy and I earned 100 coin and now it takes me 30 seconds to kill that same enemy but I still only get 100 coin, then I without any rewards I am incurring a penalty and make less coin per second.

I'm opposed to unique motifs and the like. But nobody should be punished for wanting to play at a harder difficulty. And I cannot support vet players to not being treated equally in the questing areas. It shouldn't be better to be a vet player in the area. But, it also should not be worse.

There's only one mathematical solution to equality. And that is to offset the losses with exp and coin.

Then people who choose immersion by using non-optimal skills and equipment should likewise have their xp and gold per enemy increased to make up for taking longer than if they were optimizing for a 25x damage increase.

Just as soon as they force everyone into a higher difficulty so that their gear choices actually matter to completing the story. Also, I have been very open about how the gap between the worst gear and best is too wide and should be changed. A player shouldn't even be able to build themselves into a fake DPS while equipped in all DPS gear. That's a failure on the game's balance imo.

Regardless, There's a difference between a gameplay setting/mode and your build. Creating a new game mode and then saying anyone who actually wants to play that game mode should be punished for their choice and excluded from being rewarded the same as every other part of the game is not how most games operate.

Most RPGs and MMOs recognize the basic fairness of treating all players the same and attach rewards to all forms of content. And then people who are willing to earn more things by doing more things get more than people who can't or won't.

I don't expect to get PvP rewards when I don't PvP.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

First of all this is not a vet issue. Players choosing difficulty are not all vets and not all vets will choose difficulty. It's a matter of personal preference. I'm a vet and I never intend to even try difficulty.

Second, the enemies aren't changing. Everyone will be fighting the same enemies just as we do now. It's logical that the same enemies will drop the same rewards for everyone as they do now. If a level 30 and a CP 3600 both fight and defeat the same enemy they will both get rewards from the same loot table. The CP 3600 doesn't get higher quality rewards because they are a vet, and the level 30 doesn't get higher quality rewards because it was harder for them to defeat.

Rewards aren't based on how hard it is for each individual to defeat. It's the same exact enemies so they should drop the same exact rewards for everyone.

I don't think vets should be treated differently, which means any player should not receive increased rewards for fighting the same exact enemies as everyone else just because they chose to make the fight more difficult for themselves.

It's not the same enemies. The modifier is on the player simply, so others don't have to deal with it. But changing either the player or the enemy results in the same thing. The fight takes longer and is a more difficult version. It's like going from normal to vet.

Vets would be treated differently if there was not increased rewards. They would have a more difficult fight that takes longer for less rewards than those doing it on normal.

An enemy whose heavy attack cannot kill you and dies in 5 seconds is fundamentally a different fight than an enemy whose heavy attack will one shot you and who takes 2 minutes to kill. You can ignore the non-lethal mechanic in normal, but most follow it on hard. This is not different than the dungeons.

The modifier was on the player instead of the enemy simply so that people who wanted to opt out didn't have to fight the harder enemy. If the changed the enemy instead of the player, as many people wanted, they'd have to either separate the two groups or force everyone into the same fights. Things that many casual players asked them not to do. This comes with drawbacks to the challenge mode such as not being able to offer new mechanics. A drawback added to the challenge mode specifically to make things nicer for the casual players should not then be used as a reason to treat vets questers differently to everyone else.

All other gameplay modes have their own rewards. Excluding vet players from literally any rewards would be penalizing them.

It's pure math and objective.

If takes me 10 seconds to kill an enemy and I earned 100 coin and now it takes me 30 seconds to kill that same enemy but I still only get 100 coin, then I without any rewards I am incurring a penalty and make less coin per second.

I'm opposed to unique motifs and the like. But nobody should be punished for wanting to play at a harder difficulty. And I cannot support vet players to not being treated equally in the questing areas. It shouldn't be better to be a vet player in the area. But, it also should not be worse.

There's only one mathematical solution to equality. And that is to offset the losses with exp and coin.

Then people who choose immersion by using non-optimal skills and equipment should likewise have their xp and gold per enemy increased to make up for taking longer than if they were optimizing for a 25x damage increase.

Regardless, There's a difference between a gameplay setting/mode and your build. Creating a new game mode and then saying anyone who actually wants to play that game mode should be punished for their choice and excluded from being rewarded the same as every other part of the game is not how most games operate. .

There's not a difference that changes your equations. Someone taking 30 seconds instead of 2 seconds is equally disadvantaged regardless of it's because of a difficulty setting or a build. Punishing and excluding rewards from those who choose immersion via equipment and skills instead of difficulty settings is not how most games operate.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

First of all this is not a vet issue. Players choosing difficulty are not all vets and not all vets will choose difficulty. It's a matter of personal preference. I'm a vet and I never intend to even try difficulty.

Second, the enemies aren't changing. Everyone will be fighting the same enemies just as we do now. It's logical that the same enemies will drop the same rewards for everyone as they do now. If a level 30 and a CP 3600 both fight and defeat the same enemy they will both get rewards from the same loot table. The CP 3600 doesn't get higher quality rewards because they are a vet, and the level 30 doesn't get higher quality rewards because it was harder for them to defeat.

Rewards aren't based on how hard it is for each individual to defeat. It's the same exact enemies so they should drop the same exact rewards for everyone.

I don't think vets should be treated differently, which means any player should not receive increased rewards for fighting the same exact enemies as everyone else just because they chose to make the fight more difficult for themselves.

It's not the same enemies. The modifier is on the player simply, so others don't have to deal with it. But changing either the player or the enemy results in the same thing. The fight takes longer and is a more difficult version. It's like going from normal to vet.

Vets would be treated differently if there was not increased rewards. They would have a more difficult fight that takes longer for less rewards than those doing it on normal.

An enemy whose heavy attack cannot kill you and dies in 5 seconds is fundamentally a different fight than an enemy whose heavy attack will one shot you and who takes 2 minutes to kill. You can ignore the non-lethal mechanic in normal, but most follow it on hard. This is not different than the dungeons.

The modifier was on the player instead of the enemy simply so that people who wanted to opt out didn't have to fight the harder enemy. If the changed the enemy instead of the player, as many people wanted, they'd have to either separate the two groups or force everyone into the same fights. Things that many casual players asked them not to do. This comes with drawbacks to the challenge mode such as not being able to offer new mechanics. A drawback added to the challenge mode specifically to make things nicer for the casual players should not then be used as a reason to treat vets questers differently to everyone else.

All other gameplay modes have their own rewards. Excluding vet players from literally any rewards would be penalizing them.

It's pure math and objective.

If takes me 10 seconds to kill an enemy and I earned 100 coin and now it takes me 30 seconds to kill that same enemy but I still only get 100 coin, then I without any rewards I am incurring a penalty and make less coin per second.

I'm opposed to unique motifs and the like. But nobody should be punished for wanting to play at a harder difficulty. And I cannot support vet players to not being treated equally in the questing areas. It shouldn't be better to be a vet player in the area. But, it also should not be worse.

There's only one mathematical solution to equality. And that is to offset the losses with exp and coin.

Then people who choose immersion by using non-optimal skills and equipment should likewise have their xp and gold per enemy increased to make up for taking longer than if they were optimizing for a 25x damage increase.

Regardless, There's a difference between a gameplay setting/mode and your build. Creating a new game mode and then saying anyone who actually wants to play that game mode should be punished for their choice and excluded from being rewarded the same as every other part of the game is not how most games operate. .

There's not a difference that changes your equations. Someone taking 30 seconds instead of 2 seconds is equally disadvantaged regardless of it's because of a difficulty setting or a build. Punishing and excluding rewards from those who choose immersion via equipment and skills instead of difficulty settings is not how most games operate.

Most games don't have equipment that's like "this armor piece is trash but since your stats are garbage, we'll give you some stuff for building poorly." They do however have rewards for taking on harder difficulty settings. Building a character is your individual skill expression not a game mode.

The whole slider thing was requested by casuals and those vets who were willing to compromise on the best mode for vets to ensure that the needs of casual players were met. Many vet players actually requested an entirely separate game mode. But casual players wanted us on the map. I was completely on board with that from the very beginning because I had family members that I wanted to be able to play with. But I remember very well taking a lot of heat for having that opinion and being labeled falsely anti-vet because so many vet players wanted a separate instance.

Now, what was a compromise on the part of vet players from the beginning is being used as a primary reason to campaign for punishing us for "our" request for difficulty options.

No. Vet players should not be the only players excluded from rewards. The players who did request a slider did so out of solidarity and practically about the expenses to the devs. The rest, and they were many, did not actually get what they wanted. And neither is a good reason to exclude players from getting rewards the same way everyone in every other game mode in the game does.

There are literally no exceptions. All game modes in this game get rewards. To treat vet questers differently from players who choose to play any other form of content would be unfair.

This is a video game. All of it is optional. We all choose to play it.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Building a character is your individual skill expression

Perhaps it could be, but it's an individual immersion expression as well.

You're being told that you're not being punished or excluded for choosing an option that increases immersion at the expense of making battles take longer for the same reason you're saying that people are not being punished or excluded for choosing an option that increases immersion at the expense of making battles take longer.

A bit funny how equal exp/gold per hour is even considered as a reward, it's just basics structural logic at best. This "us versus them" mentality already gave us the most stripped down version of a feature people were requesting so most people who I know aren't interested in said iteration on difficulty at all. So "they've asked for this" as an substitute for "that's what you get for taking away devs time from what I wanted!" isn't flying really. Barely anyone asked for "this", it's a compromise made in favour of people who were firmly against the feature in a first place. The basic request to have equality in experience rates is more than justified as it's not just a veteran feature, new players would chose it and will have the penalty from the get go for having more enjoyable experience. Not an okay trade off for an mmorpg that has level barriers and other people to play with.

Deserrick wrote: »

The effects are equivalent: battles take longer.

Deserrick wrote: »

Immersive choices are not equivalent to low skill. If they are, then choosing the most efficient difficulty option is also a skill issue and should likewise not be rewarded.

Creating a build requires a lot of thought, number crunching, practice, and knowledge. It's a skill. Choosing a difficulty setting is not a skill. It is a few button presses. There are few "immersive," choices that would produce similar results as the slider anyway. Even my stealth character kills faster and easier than vestige level setting.

Vestige Challenge Difficulty is a game mode setting specifically created by the devs to produce harder fights.

Deserrick wrote: »

Then just as soon as everything is equally balanced, higher difficulties could be more rewarding, since the difficulty choice would be the only factor in battle efficiency.

They are introducing a challenge difficulty setting now so it should launch in a proper state where all the choices are fun and rewarding. Which they have done. Whenever they get around to balancing sets properly, if ever, then they can get around to ensuring there aren't gear sets that are completely worthless

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

The effects are equivalent: battles take longer.

Correct. It is not a false equivalence because none of the differences are key. None of the minor distinctions make any difference in exercise or outcomes.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

Immersive choices are not equivalent to low skill. If they are, then choosing the most efficient difficulty option is also a skill issue and should likewise not be rewarded.

Creating a build requires a lot of thought, number crunching, practice, and knowledge. It's a skill. Choosing a difficulty setting is not a skill. It is a few button presses. There are few "immersive," choices that would produce similar results as the slider anyway. Even my stealth character kills faster and easier than vestige level setting.

Vestige Challenge Difficulty is a game mode setting specifically created by the devs to produce harder fights.

Getting an efficient build is as easy as looking one up. You can choose to copy an efficient one, or choose to make one that is more fun and immersive at the cost of increased difficulty. Either way, it’s a few button presses.

Consider the complaints of people who have had their group dungeon, trial, or battlegrounds group entered by players who just used what was fun or interesting. They do about a tenth of the damage and get shredded in short order. It’s more of a difference than the slider.

Being a player created expression of skill and being an official game mode are not minor differences.

That's like saying the dueling arena at my old guild's house is the same thing as Cyrodiil because they both involve killing players.

Player generated content has no reasonable expectation that the devs will add rewards to it. All official game modes come with rewards. So to say they should exclude one group of players, and only one, from rewards because some miniscule amount of people go out of their way to create bad builds for immersion is a false equivalence.

What's next? My guild had a housing contest with a small entry free. Maybe we should start charging players every time they decorate their house too?

Player socializing is also not a message from Zenimax. Should Zenimax start sending out hate tells because some jerks in group finder got bent out of shape at someone with low damage in the normal dungeons? Maybe if someone queues as tank but doesn't slot a taunt there could be a big message on their screen that's like "stop being a jerk and slot a taunt," since so many people don't like fake tanks.

Those are obviously bad ideas. Official features should respect the entire playerbase for the time and money that we have ALL spent on this game. All official gameplay features should be fun and rewarding. There should not be a group of players excluded from the rewards system because another group of players cannot or will not participate in the content on offer. PvP players deserve rewards regardless if some people can't or won't PvP. Both normal trials and vet trials deserve rewards. And the same is true for the questing.

Thankfully, ZOS sees the basic fairness of equal treatment and has attached rewards. They aren't even good ones, just a small bonus to show people there time is valued. That's a good thing.

The more I see arguments like "an official game mode shouldn't be treated the same as other official game modes because player created content exists," and "you deserve to have penalties because you dared to be cooperative with casual players when making your request" have pushed me to the opposite direction on rewards. Because it doesn't seem to me like those arguments are actually about negative impacts the system might have on you.

However, I know that some players would feel obligated to turn on the feature if it had the fancy stuff. And that there should be content everyone can all get all of the most significant rewards. And that is a good and valid reason things are the way they are right now. Idk why people can't just be happy with that. It's not like we're getting mounts. Nobody is going to ruin their own game for 20 coins so the way the devs are doing things now should be a perfectly fair compromise.

Their current strategy shows respect for vet players time and effort to include them in rewards the same as literally everyone else has been. And it also ensures nobody feels forced to treat even the tutorial content like a massive challenge and turn this game into Dark Souls. They have done their best to give both groups of players a fun, functional, and rewarding experience. To treat all of us as valued customers. I can't get behind that being a bad thing.

All vet difficulty modes in the game have increased rewards from the difficulty setting chosen. The fight is designed to be harder. The values they chose for the setting ensures that the fights will be harder. It's just a vet difficulty version of the quest.

Defeat Poxito, Voskrona Stonehulk Poxito and Talen-Lah in Naj-Caldeesh

Rewards:
Skill Style: Weakness to Elements, Orange
Trophy: Bar-Sakka
Naj-Caldeesh Drawbridge, Stone

Defeat Poxito, Voskrona Stonehulk Poxito and Talen-Lah in Veteran Naj-Caldeesh.

Rewards:
Memento: Haunted Mirror of Introspection
Bust: Squall of Retribution

Like the dungeons, regardless of your build, you will have a harder fight that takes both more time AND EFFORT, to beat it. The same person in a bad build that finds normal mode hard probably can't even complete vestige mode.

A player choosing difficulty is getting proper rewards for their time. Just like everyone else.

The reason players are buffed to CP160 is so they can play any zone in any order and play with their friends. They do NOT get better rewards than anyone else fighting the same enemies.

I don't agree with it but if they are getting increased experience and gold what more do they want?

I'm fine with the rewards planned (although they could give a bit more exp imo) but different individuals will want different things.

Saying it's cool what they already have planned is what sparked this whole conversation.

Deserrick wrote: »

1: It's a player choice of immersion, not a player created expression of skill.
2: The reason it's a minor difference is because is does not change your claimed point that equal time should result in equal rewards, and thus choices that incur more time spent should result in increased rewards to achieve equality.

1. No. Most people are not intentionally building to be bad when they make roleplay builds.
2. No. What I said was that it is an game mode and later clarified official game modes should respect the players time. You are the one that brought player generated content into it. I rejected that argument because it is a false equivalency to my point and I do not believe that player generated content is the same thing as official game modes by the devs.

We are not going to agree that player created content is basically same thing as official content just because they share a superficial similarity. So I will digress from here.

Not sure if that's a new werewolf or a difficulty setting by itself but I wasn't able to leave a singular delve in Vvardenfell due to how awesome it felt going through it times and times again. I don't even remember the times I was doing something similar to that and had genuine fun outside of instanced content.

Well I have said all I need to say. I'm ready to put this to rest now. It's long overdue.