Sorcerer rework, new class, new systems, house building, and various improvements for ESO

spartaxoxo · February 18

BretonMage wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Sorcs don’t need two skills that two nearly the same thing spread across two skill lines. you chose to get rid of Dark Magic, I did too. I don’t find it particularly useful, but I don’t find Daedric Summoning useful either. I can Scribe skills that are far more effective than any Sorc pet and that’s even before the bad AI and mechanics Sorc pets are plagued with.

This is why many of us cite experienced players because we’ve played the game, and the class, enough to understand what is redundant and what is useful & brings value.

I can appreciate that you’re a casual player and might like the Twilight but asking everyone who plays as a Sorc to have to live with a sub par ability, like Twilight, that you’re using for a self heal when Sorcs already have a strong self heal without the pets doesn’t really make any sense.

The main point of re-working the Sorc class is to help encourage players to actually play and build a fully Sorc class as opposed to just subclassing everything.

Currently, non subclassed Sorc builds aren’t as competitive.

A suggestion was given to take Sorc pets and place them into a separate conjuration line, which I think is phenomenal. This way, if someone wanted to run pets they still could. If someone wants to play a class build that’s not competitive, that should be their choice but it shouldn’t mean making the entire Sorc class non-competitive just to accommodate that.

As ESO_player said, the Matriach ability is unique because it also heals one's companion anywhere they may be on the battlefield provided they're not too far away, damages and provides useful distraction when there are a lot of adds. It is therefore useful in soloing with a companion. It's saved me when I've been solo and hard-CC'ed.

If Sorcs are less competitive as they stand, the solution is to update the effectiveness of their skills, or to address pain points within the skill lines, not to replace skill lines wholesale. Suggestions like:

- Improve the effectiveness of the other morph, the Twilight Tormentor;
- Let one-pet sorcs be as effective as two-pet sorcs;
- Let the Twilight rest on the ground when not in motion. Etc.

And no, I do not like the Dark Magic aspect of the Sorc; I loathe the aesthetic, and it has so far been, with the exception of Crystal Fragments, pretty useless for DPS.

I've played a lightning and daedric summoning mage since TES Skyrim, and having the two skill lines in a class work exceptionally well. The mage calling down powerful lightning magic, while aided by daedric entities, makes perfect thematic sense. While I wholeheartedly support the calls for greater emphasis on the lightning aspect of the class, I equally strongly object against the calls for a replacement of the daedric summoning line.

Qouted because I got to give this thunderous applause.

NxJoeyD · February 18

Lekjih wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

As ESO_player said, the Matriach ability is unique because it also heals one's companion anywhere they may be on the battlefield provided they're not too far away, damages and provides useful distraction when there are a lot of adds. It is therefore useful in soloing with a companion. It's saved me when I've been solo and hard-CC'ed.

If Sorcs are less competitive as they stand, the solution is to update the effectiveness of their skills, or to address pain points within the skill lines, not to replace skill lines wholesale. Suggestions like:

- Improve the effectiveness of the other morph, the Twilight Tormentor;
- Let one-pet sorcs be as effective as two-pet sorcs;
- Let the Twilight rest on the ground when not in motion. Etc.

And no, I do not like the Dark Magic aspect of the Sorc; I loathe the aesthetic, and it has so far been, with the exception of Crystal Fragments, pretty useless for DPS.

I've played a lightning and daedric summoning mage since TES Skyrim, and having the two skill lines in a class work exceptionally well. The mage calling down powerful lightning magic, while aided by daedric entities, makes perfect thematic sense. While I wholeheartedly support the calls for greater emphasis on the lightning aspect of the class, I equally strongly object against the calls for a replacement of the daedric summoning line.

This. We can't just cut off half a class for everyone because one person, or six vocal ones, don't like it. It needs a buff, not removal.
I've recently gone and made a baby sorc to play on as pure sorc and it's surprisingly bursty at times, but spines not hitting flying enemies reduces damage. I would change that. As someone who likes rocks and crystals, dinosaurs and rainstorms in real life, I've just been roleplaying her around Tamriel as a witch. Much fun. Pets should be viable in trials. Even if it makes the tanks question what they're taunting. Fun playstyles shouldn't be penalised. It is a game. It is supposed to be fun! I also don't thing necros are summoners the same way sorcs are. Sorcs have a contract and a permanent 'friend', wardens summon essence and make a permanent magic thrall essentially, while necros use bodies and throw them around untill they rot, collapse and disintegrate. I don't want to see scamps, clannfear, matriarch or storm atro on a necro base class, because necros revolve around corpse use, and sorc pets do not. That's like putting winter's embrace on a dk because fire and ice both temperature based elements.

Removing things wholesale is terrible for the health of the game - it will never go down well with everyone, because someone out there loves what you hate in a class. In terms of ZOS' bottom line, do the roleplayers or elite players spend more money on the game. I've met roleplayers with every house, costume, mount, bought 4k crown crates for a mount to roleplay with, and endgamers who proudly declare they only spend on eso plus (and only during an active prog!), but they stream trials every night and give the game publicity. Both are needed for the game's longevity. Driving away players by deleting their favourite pet from their favourite class isn't great.

But here’s the underlying problem … Sorc pets AREN‘T competitive and they can’t just be “tweaked” to be.

The only scenarios that anyone has given are solo gameplay or soloing content with a companion (which technically isn’t soloing, per se).

This is a very limited scope of the game. No, ESO isn’t designed whereby everyone has to run in a group to play, yes, a lot is solo; but we can’t have skills that are only useful if one just so happens to be running solo non-end game content.

People have demonstrated with mechanics and values how Sorc pets don’t stand up. People have provided data showing that Sorc pets don’t pull their weight in harder hitting content.

People will say “oh, well the answer is to buff pets” .. well, no, it isn’t. And the reason why is because it isn’t simply that Sorc pets are just low DPS, it’s also their fundamental mechanics. That’s not something you can just “buff” .. you’d have to completely rebuild and redevelop them for them to have a useful place across all forms of ESO content.

And no, I don’t think anyone who has played this game and has any experience is going to agree that Sorc pets should be rebuilt in any fashion that sees them infringing upon other gameplay roles such as tanks.

I’m sorry but show me any other class where their skill tree is only good for certain solo content? There aren’t any. Every other class is broadly useful except ours.

It’s clear to me that the only rationale people are citing for keeping the pets are extremely limited use cases but moreso sentimental reasons not because there’s a legitimate, data driven reason to keep them.

Again, if it was just a matter of changing Sorc pet values to make them competitive and useful across more of the game, sure, keep them .. but that’s not the case, it’s mechanics.

Why can’t we move Sorc pets to a separate conjuring line? It would still allow a Sorc who wants to run pets to do so. It wouldn’t require subclassing nor would it cripple the class for the players who do more than solo a base game dungeon once per month. That seems like a fair compromise here.

spartaxoxo · February 18

Pets are a stylistic dot with some extra bonuses but also extra costs. You absolutely can buff them. They should be worth running in all content but lower damage numbers than other similar dots to make up for the added utility. Power creep has left them behind but they've been in good spots before and can be again.

Saying that oh Sorcs are weak right now so they'll always be weak doesn't hold water with an 11 year game where Sorcs have had moments when they were too strong, kinda weak, and somewhere in the middle. As any class should in a long running game.

ESO_player123 · February 18

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Lekjih wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

As ESO_player said, the Matriach ability is unique because it also heals one's companion anywhere they may be on the battlefield provided they're not too far away, damages and provides useful distraction when there are a lot of adds. It is therefore useful in soloing with a companion. It's saved me when I've been solo and hard-CC'ed.

If Sorcs are less competitive as they stand, the solution is to update the effectiveness of their skills, or to address pain points within the skill lines, not to replace skill lines wholesale. Suggestions like:

- Improve the effectiveness of the other morph, the Twilight Tormentor;
- Let one-pet sorcs be as effective as two-pet sorcs;
- Let the Twilight rest on the ground when not in motion. Etc.

And no, I do not like the Dark Magic aspect of the Sorc; I loathe the aesthetic, and it has so far been, with the exception of Crystal Fragments, pretty useless for DPS.

I've played a lightning and daedric summoning mage since TES Skyrim, and having the two skill lines in a class work exceptionally well. The mage calling down powerful lightning magic, while aided by daedric entities, makes perfect thematic sense. While I wholeheartedly support the calls for greater emphasis on the lightning aspect of the class, I equally strongly object against the calls for a replacement of the daedric summoning line.

This. We can't just cut off half a class for everyone because one person, or six vocal ones, don't like it. It needs a buff, not removal.
I've recently gone and made a baby sorc to play on as pure sorc and it's surprisingly bursty at times, but spines not hitting flying enemies reduces damage. I would change that. As someone who likes rocks and crystals, dinosaurs and rainstorms in real life, I've just been roleplaying her around Tamriel as a witch. Much fun. Pets should be viable in trials. Even if it makes the tanks question what they're taunting. Fun playstyles shouldn't be penalised. It is a game. It is supposed to be fun! I also don't thing necros are summoners the same way sorcs are. Sorcs have a contract and a permanent 'friend', wardens summon essence and make a permanent magic thrall essentially, while necros use bodies and throw them around untill they rot, collapse and disintegrate. I don't want to see scamps, clannfear, matriarch or storm atro on a necro base class, because necros revolve around corpse use, and sorc pets do not. That's like putting winter's embrace on a dk because fire and ice both temperature based elements.

Removing things wholesale is terrible for the health of the game - it will never go down well with everyone, because someone out there loves what you hate in a class. In terms of ZOS' bottom line, do the roleplayers or elite players spend more money on the game. I've met roleplayers with every house, costume, mount, bought 4k crown crates for a mount to roleplay with, and endgamers who proudly declare they only spend on eso plus (and only during an active prog!), but they stream trials every night and give the game publicity. Both are needed for the game's longevity. Driving away players by deleting their favourite pet from their favourite class isn't great.

But here’s the underlying problem … Sorc pets AREN‘T competitive and they can’t just be “tweaked” to be.

The only scenarios that anyone has given are solo gameplay or soloing content with a companion (which technically isn’t soloing, per se).

This is a very limited scope of the game. No, ESO isn’t designed whereby everyone has to run in a group to play, yes, a lot is solo; but we can’t have skills that are only useful if one just so happens to be running solo non-end game content.

People have demonstrated with mechanics and values how Sorc pets don’t stand up. People have provided data showing that Sorc pets don’t pull their weight in harder hitting content.

People will say “oh, well the answer is to buff pets” .. well, no, it isn’t. And the reason why is because it isn’t simply that Sorc pets are just low DPS, it’s also their fundamental mechanics. That’s not something you can just “buff” .. you’d have to completely rebuild and redevelop them for them to have a useful place across all forms of ESO content.

And no, I don’t think anyone who has played this game and has any experience is going to agree that Sorc pets should be rebuilt in any fashion that sees them infringing upon other gameplay roles such as tanks.

I’m sorry but show me any other class where their skill tree is only good for certain solo content? There aren’t any. Every other class is broadly useful except ours.

It’s clear to me that the only rationale people are citing for keeping the pets are extremely limited use cases but moreso sentimental reasons not because there’s a legitimate, data driven reason to keep them.

Again, if it was just a matter of changing Sorc pet values to make them competitive and useful across more of the game, sure, keep them .. but that’s not the case, it’s mechanics.

Why can’t we move Sorc pets to a separate conjuring line? It would still allow a Sorc who wants to run pets to do so. It wouldn’t require subclassing nor would it cripple the class for the players who do more than solo a base game dungeon once per month. That seems like a fair compromise here.

I actually do not think that soloing or doing content with a companion is a "very limited scope of the game". I think that It's the end game community that is the minority here (I say this with no disrespect to them). That is probably because the development of the game took a turn towards a more casual crowd in the last (put your number here) years.

So, I do not feel that your dismissal of our concerns here based on the number of people who "solo" (in whatever form it might take) is justified.

Edit: I'm not capable of soloing Vet DLC dungeons, but I finished all DLC dungeons on normal with a companion that do not require another player to pull levers to open doors or require a communication with a living person (like indication which totem to attack). And while a companion was useless in quite a few of them due to standing in stupid, the Matriarch IS what make it possible for me.

So, I will repeat again: if they give me another skill that a) heals me and my companion reliably b) takes 1 slot c) not the only skill useful in the whole line (as in Dark Magic or a line designed for healers) I will take it. Unfortunately, I'm not confident that that is what we end up with after the rework. So, I'd rather keep my Matriarch and advocate for buffing it.

RebornV3x · February 18

Malyore wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

your going to get a useless class that is bad at both spell casting and pets that suck.

How?

RebornV3x wrote: »

Unless ZOS is gonna give Sorcerer another skill line or two to accommodate both play styles they have to choose battle mage or summoner.

Why?

RebornV3x wrote: »

The Sorcerer can not continue to be pulled in two different directions at once

Why?

You have 3 class skill lines,18 skills and 15 passives by trying to accommodate both pet sorcerers and non pet sorcs your essentially splitting the class in half so at BEST your gonna have 6 or 7 pet related skills and 6 or 7 other rando skills.

How would adding dual functionality to skills/passives, or making diverse morphs lessen the amount of skills available to each playstyle?

That's the neat part you wouldn't get dual functionality there's only so many class skills and passives you have access to
instead you could get a cool dedicated combat pet class or a cool and powerful lighting and dark magic class. But not both theirs currently not enough skills to do it.

Currently Sorcerer is a battle mage, spell slinging class with pets tacked on.

With Necromancer now a thing pets almost feel out of place being on Sorcerer
Whats the point of doing a refresh if were just gonna keep things the same and just update the visuals?

I either want more pets and skills, buffs and passives that complement and synergies with that play style combat pets should be the main focus of the Sorcerer class not just on the sidelines tacked on like an after thought which it currently is.
OR get rid of them completely and give Sorcerer much needed dps/healing options like every other class has.

Imagine if Nightblade or another class had two mediocre unreliable skills that had to be double slotted on both bars and an entire skill line vaguely dedicated to it. There would be massive backlash why does Sorcerer have to accept this?

spartaxoxo · February 18

Dark Magic is the skill line that's actually underused. If there was an argument to ditch an underperforming skill line, it's Dark Magic. Crystal Frags is about the only Dark Magic skill that's popular.

Sorcs are generally lightning mages and/or Summoners. Pets are not tacked on. They're part of the core identity for a lot of players and have been for years. The two things you most think of when you say sorc in ESO is lightning and pets. That's even what the two class sets are built on.

Rewriting what players actually use isn't going to stop the no doubt massive backlash that would come from gutting the core identity of people's characters for over a decade. The class refreshes are supposed to be about reinforcing the identities for players, not tearing them down.

Turtle_Bot · February 19

@spartaxoxo I want to clarify a few things here.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Dark Magic is the skill line that's actually underused. If there was an argument to ditch an underperforming skill line, it's Dark Magic. Crystal Frags is about the only Dark Magic skill that's popular.

Dark Magic has only become underused over the past few years because of 2 external factors not related to the line itself:
1. The abundance of free passive sustain ZOS has given out over the past few years, be that sets (wretched vitality), skills (netch, siphoning strikes, rune, inhale next patch, etc.), champion points, enchants, food, etc.

An almost pure sustain line like dark magic is only underperforming because ZOS gave out far too many easier options that fills its role. The current most overpowered DPS line (Assassination) would also fall into this if ZOS would give out crit chance like they have given out sustain over the past few years.

2. Sub-classing, this was the nail in the coffin so to speak.

Why take Dark Magic when lines such as Assassination give infinitely more damage passives and better active skills for DPS to pair with a ranged hard hitting ability?
Why take Dark Magic when Animal companions gives more sustain that is also passive while providing a delayed burst with double breach and as much utility as Storm Calling?
Why take Dark Magic when a line like Restoring Light gives near infinite healing, cleansing and an armor buff on top of good sustain?
Why take Dark Magic when Siphoning mimics it's sustain benefits (burst sustain) but without the clunkiness or downsides of things like cast times or procs for max stats?
Why take Dark Magic when Ardent Flame (next patch) gives burst sustain on it's AoE delayed burst ability (inhale) that also doesn't suffer from any of the downsides Dark Magic has?

Before Sub-classing and before sustain was given out like candy, Dark Magic actually had a place in the game and was a good line. Even if we had sub-classing back then, Dark Magic would have been a good option to sub-class into because of the sustain it provides, but because every line has sustain somewhere now as well as other ways to get it that don't have the opportunity cost, Dark Magic doesn't get used anymore through no fault of it's own.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sorcs are generally lightning mages and/or Summoners. Pets are not tacked on. They're part of the core identity for a lot of players and have been for years. The two things you most think of when you say sorc in ESO is lightning and pets. That's even what the two class sets are built on.

This is incorrect, especially the point about the class sets. Sorcerers have always been mages making use of 3 schools of magic, Destruction (Storm Calling), Alteration (Dark Magic) and Conjuration (Daedric Summoning).
- Storm Calling focuses on Lightning because DK already had Flame (and eventually Warden got Ice)
- Dark Magic focuses on arcane (crystals) because NB already had shadows/darkness and templar had light
- Daedric Summoning focuses on a mix of summoning entities (pets, i.e. a familiar from DnD) and armor/weapons/shields (bound armor, aegis, armaments, ward) and curses to help the mage in battle.

Summons (pets) were originally only 1/2 of 1 aspect of the sorcerer class, sure it's a very visual aspect, but it's still only 1/2 of 1/3 of the classes overall theme.

As for the sets, we don't have the third set because ZOS hasn't made it yet. For all we know, it could focus entirely on things unique to the Dark Magic line like the silence effect or other alteration style magics, so it's really not fair to try and claim the current class sets (most of which have been massively complained about across countless threads for various reasons) as an indicator of the classes themes.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Rewriting what players actually use isn't going to stop the no doubt massive backlash that would come from gutting the core identity of people's characters for over a decade. The class refreshes are supposed to be about reinforcing the identities for players, not tearing them down.

Like what ZOS did to Lightning and Arcane mage Sorcerers just to please the few Summoner Sorcerer players over the past X years?

I get it, I really do, nobody likes losing their characters main theme, but there's also a lot wrong (and some things right) with the pets from a mechanical stand point that is hindering the class as a whole (i.e. as a system itself, and I plan to go over this in my more in-depth thread that is purely for Sorcerer rework closer to the Sorc rework (although I will touch on a few things below), since the Sorc rework is not the only topic of this thread).

I also want to note as a year 1 player here, the original design of Sorcerer back then was mage first, with summoner as a sub-theme within that mage theme, mostly due to being the only class to have summons at that time. It was possible back then to play a summoner, using the pets and supporting them with abilities, sets, etc. because of a few things as follows:
1. The lines were balanced such that all of them were of equal value/power and supported each other.
2. Overload's third bar allowed slotting pets on all 3 bars, but maintained a fair allowance of bar slots to also fit necessary utility/support skills, especially since Sorcerers skills did not have the same effect bloat the skills of other classes had/have gotten over the years.
3. The pets were actually viable mechanically due to things like:
- proccing sets like regular DoTs do
- having actually decent damage/stats such that they couldn't be ignored
- there was a distinct lack of free speed that allows players to simply ignore them in PvP
- there was less bloat in the game so it was easier to command them
- there weren't as many detrimental conditions such as sets like plaguebreak that makes the pets detrimental to have since them dying procs the set (or at least used to proc the set)
- the game itself was much slower so the downsides were not as detrimental and as such were a reasonable trade-off for what the pets gave, especially with the third bar allowing needed utility.

However, it was also possible back then to completely ignore the pets without giving up so many fundamental abilities (ward, curse, aegis/armaments, passives, etc.) that have since been reworked over the years to focus more on/tie in with pets, without a real equivalent being given to the other 2 lines of the class, which has also meant that "just sub-class that line out" has never been a real option for non-pet Sorcerers (especially magsorcs). Too many key abilities are locked behind that pet line and sub-classing has really exposed these issues with the class.

As an aside, back when ZOS started to push pets more as the main focus, many Sorcerer mains begged ZOS to simply make a new class or skill line that focused entirely on pets/summons instead of destroying their mage class/characters. ZOS didn't listen back then and as a result many Sorc mains (and there were a lot back then) who's mage characters were gutted as a result of such changes to the class, either shifted to other classes or quit the game entirely.

ZhuJiuyin · February 19

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Pets are a stylistic dot with some extra bonuses but also extra costs. You absolutely can buff them. They should be worth running in all content but lower damage numbers than other similar dots to make up for the added utility. Power creep has left them behind but they've been in good spots before and can be again.

However, Pet didn't give Sorc an advantage in PvE, at least not in the ESO-LOG. For a long time, Sorc has been relegated to a support role in PvE, primarily used for casting Major Berserk, with only a very few well-known players making it onto the leaderboards. This is partly due to the excessively high buffs given to Daedric Prey in U35 as a compensation measure.

In PvP, Pet has never been a mainstream choice because of its low damage, difficulty in control, high skill slot usage, Sorc's lack of necessary buffs, and the pet's susceptibility to death, etc.

As other players have pointed out, unless the pet AI and mechanics are completely rewritten, simple buffs will hardly allow the pet to compete with other builds.

Radiate77 · February 19

I rarely use Dark Magic simply for the fact that ZOS gutted Daedric Minefield. If I still had access to that skill, I would be running it with Arcanist’s Charm.

NxJoeyD · February 19

ESO_player123 wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Lekjih wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

As ESO_player said, the Matriach ability is unique because it also heals one's companion anywhere they may be on the battlefield provided they're not too far away, damages and provides useful distraction when there are a lot of adds. It is therefore useful in soloing with a companion. It's saved me when I've been solo and hard-CC'ed.

If Sorcs are less competitive as they stand, the solution is to update the effectiveness of their skills, or to address pain points within the skill lines, not to replace skill lines wholesale. Suggestions like:

- Improve the effectiveness of the other morph, the Twilight Tormentor;
- Let one-pet sorcs be as effective as two-pet sorcs;
- Let the Twilight rest on the ground when not in motion. Etc.

And no, I do not like the Dark Magic aspect of the Sorc; I loathe the aesthetic, and it has so far been, with the exception of Crystal Fragments, pretty useless for DPS.

I've played a lightning and daedric summoning mage since TES Skyrim, and having the two skill lines in a class work exceptionally well. The mage calling down powerful lightning magic, while aided by daedric entities, makes perfect thematic sense. While I wholeheartedly support the calls for greater emphasis on the lightning aspect of the class, I equally strongly object against the calls for a replacement of the daedric summoning line.

This. We can't just cut off half a class for everyone because one person, or six vocal ones, don't like it. It needs a buff, not removal.
I've recently gone and made a baby sorc to play on as pure sorc and it's surprisingly bursty at times, but spines not hitting flying enemies reduces damage. I would change that. As someone who likes rocks and crystals, dinosaurs and rainstorms in real life, I've just been roleplaying her around Tamriel as a witch. Much fun. Pets should be viable in trials. Even if it makes the tanks question what they're taunting. Fun playstyles shouldn't be penalised. It is a game. It is supposed to be fun! I also don't thing necros are summoners the same way sorcs are. Sorcs have a contract and a permanent 'friend', wardens summon essence and make a permanent magic thrall essentially, while necros use bodies and throw them around untill they rot, collapse and disintegrate. I don't want to see scamps, clannfear, matriarch or storm atro on a necro base class, because necros revolve around corpse use, and sorc pets do not. That's like putting winter's embrace on a dk because fire and ice both temperature based elements.

Removing things wholesale is terrible for the health of the game - it will never go down well with everyone, because someone out there loves what you hate in a class. In terms of ZOS' bottom line, do the roleplayers or elite players spend more money on the game. I've met roleplayers with every house, costume, mount, bought 4k crown crates for a mount to roleplay with, and endgamers who proudly declare they only spend on eso plus (and only during an active prog!), but they stream trials every night and give the game publicity. Both are needed for the game's longevity. Driving away players by deleting their favourite pet from their favourite class isn't great.

But here’s the underlying problem … Sorc pets AREN‘T competitive and they can’t just be “tweaked” to be.

The only scenarios that anyone has given are solo gameplay or soloing content with a companion (which technically isn’t soloing, per se).

This is a very limited scope of the game. No, ESO isn’t designed whereby everyone has to run in a group to play, yes, a lot is solo; but we can’t have skills that are only useful if one just so happens to be running solo non-end game content.

People have demonstrated with mechanics and values how Sorc pets don’t stand up. People have provided data showing that Sorc pets don’t pull their weight in harder hitting content.

People will say “oh, well the answer is to buff pets” .. well, no, it isn’t. And the reason why is because it isn’t simply that Sorc pets are just low DPS, it’s also their fundamental mechanics. That’s not something you can just “buff” .. you’d have to completely rebuild and redevelop them for them to have a useful place across all forms of ESO content.

And no, I don’t think anyone who has played this game and has any experience is going to agree that Sorc pets should be rebuilt in any fashion that sees them infringing upon other gameplay roles such as tanks.

I’m sorry but show me any other class where their skill tree is only good for certain solo content? There aren’t any. Every other class is broadly useful except ours.

It’s clear to me that the only rationale people are citing for keeping the pets are extremely limited use cases but moreso sentimental reasons not because there’s a legitimate, data driven reason to keep them.

Again, if it was just a matter of changing Sorc pet values to make them competitive and useful across more of the game, sure, keep them .. but that’s not the case, it’s mechanics.

Why can’t we move Sorc pets to a separate conjuring line? It would still allow a Sorc who wants to run pets to do so. It wouldn’t require subclassing nor would it cripple the class for the players who do more than solo a base game dungeon once per month. That seems like a fair compromise here.

I actually do not think that soloing or doing content with a companion is a "very limited scope of the game". I think that It's the end game community that is the minority here (I say this with no disrespect to them). That is probably because the development of the game took a turn towards a more casual crowd in the last (put your number here) years.

So, I do not feel that your dismissal of our concerns here based on the number of people who "solo" (in whatever form it might take) is justified.

Edit: I'm not capable of soloing Vet DLC dungeons, but I finished all DLC dungeons on normal with a companion that do not require another player to pull levers to open doors or require a communication with a living person (like indication which totem to attack). And while a companion was useless in quite a few of them due to standing in stupid, the Matriarch IS what make it possible for me.

So, I will repeat again: if they give me another skill that a) heals me and my companion reliably b) takes 1 slot c) not the only skill useful in the whole line (as in Dark Magic or a line designed for healers) I will take it. Unfortunately, I'm not confident that that is what we end up with after the rework. So, I'd rather keep my Matriarch and advocate for buffing it.

The Devs already did give you a single slot skill that will heal you and your companion, plus provide additional buffs, it’s called Scribing .. either of Usfelds or Soul Burst are more beneficial than the Twilight when it comes to heals, so to your request of having a comparable skill, it’s already here.

And yes, citing running solo dungeons is very much a limited scope. That’s one small fact of ESO gameplay .. it omits Trials & Arenas, it omits BG’s, Cyrodill, the IC, and it also omits of the newer content. If you look at the mechanics of how new content functions you can clearly see how the devs are increasing the bar on difficulty and as such we need skills that can keep up.

I know you said you can’t solo Vet DLC’s, but get a group together or just rando and go run Vet Black Gem Foundry with those pets, unless you get carried by heavy hitting DPS you’re going to get clobbered with those mongrels as they’ll do next to nothing for you.

To say that it should be considered to leave a class mediocre because you “think” that the bulk of ESO players are simply casual players that aren’t concerned with skills that are competitive in the greater landscape of the game is silly.

Even endgame players can be casual; not all experienced players are dedicated sweats, but, what they are is aware of the fundamental need to fix a class that’s in rough shape.

If what you mostly do is casual solo dungeons then you’re not really seeing the full scope of the impacts that subclassing has had on different aspects of the gameplay and as such your perspective here is missing key context.

For those of us who have spent the time since subclassing playing and testing various skills, mechanics, and gameplay environments what we have is a broader picture of the problem. This is why it matters to us.

Just because you choose to have limited play scope doesn’t mean that Sorc should be short changed for everyone else.

Myself and others have offered suggestions that would still enable players such as yourself to run pets, without having to subclass, while at the same time removing pets from the Sorc class to make room for more versatile skills.

NxJoeyD · February 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

I rarely use Dark Magic simply for the fact that ZOS gutted Daedric Minefield. If I still had access to that skill, I would be running it with Arcanist’s Charm.

Dark Magic was such a neglected skill line for us. … the cast time on Frags makes it unusable in PvP .. and there’s 2 completely redundant skills that don’t even have good mechanics to them. They gave the Stam based Crystal Weapon but I don’t even see that very often.

Dark Magic was the first line I threw away.

And what sucks even more is that for Sorcs, we have to take a hit in the Weapon / Spell damage department for giving up those lackluster lines and not slotting a Sorc skill; so we pay a pretty solid penalty to have to subclass in the first place.

Scribing put Dark Magic in the back seat even before subclassing.

ESO_player123 · February 19

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Lekjih wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

As ESO_player said, the Matriach ability is unique because it also heals one's companion anywhere they may be on the battlefield provided they're not too far away, damages and provides useful distraction when there are a lot of adds. It is therefore useful in soloing with a companion. It's saved me when I've been solo and hard-CC'ed.

If Sorcs are less competitive as they stand, the solution is to update the effectiveness of their skills, or to address pain points within the skill lines, not to replace skill lines wholesale. Suggestions like:

- Improve the effectiveness of the other morph, the Twilight Tormentor;
- Let one-pet sorcs be as effective as two-pet sorcs;
- Let the Twilight rest on the ground when not in motion. Etc.

And no, I do not like the Dark Magic aspect of the Sorc; I loathe the aesthetic, and it has so far been, with the exception of Crystal Fragments, pretty useless for DPS.

I've played a lightning and daedric summoning mage since TES Skyrim, and having the two skill lines in a class work exceptionally well. The mage calling down powerful lightning magic, while aided by daedric entities, makes perfect thematic sense. While I wholeheartedly support the calls for greater emphasis on the lightning aspect of the class, I equally strongly object against the calls for a replacement of the daedric summoning line.

This. We can't just cut off half a class for everyone because one person, or six vocal ones, don't like it. It needs a buff, not removal.
I've recently gone and made a baby sorc to play on as pure sorc and it's surprisingly bursty at times, but spines not hitting flying enemies reduces damage. I would change that. As someone who likes rocks and crystals, dinosaurs and rainstorms in real life, I've just been roleplaying her around Tamriel as a witch. Much fun. Pets should be viable in trials. Even if it makes the tanks question what they're taunting. Fun playstyles shouldn't be penalised. It is a game. It is supposed to be fun! I also don't thing necros are summoners the same way sorcs are. Sorcs have a contract and a permanent 'friend', wardens summon essence and make a permanent magic thrall essentially, while necros use bodies and throw them around untill they rot, collapse and disintegrate. I don't want to see scamps, clannfear, matriarch or storm atro on a necro base class, because necros revolve around corpse use, and sorc pets do not. That's like putting winter's embrace on a dk because fire and ice both temperature based elements.

Removing things wholesale is terrible for the health of the game - it will never go down well with everyone, because someone out there loves what you hate in a class. In terms of ZOS' bottom line, do the roleplayers or elite players spend more money on the game. I've met roleplayers with every house, costume, mount, bought 4k crown crates for a mount to roleplay with, and endgamers who proudly declare they only spend on eso plus (and only during an active prog!), but they stream trials every night and give the game publicity. Both are needed for the game's longevity. Driving away players by deleting their favourite pet from their favourite class isn't great.

But here’s the underlying problem … Sorc pets AREN‘T competitive and they can’t just be “tweaked” to be.

The only scenarios that anyone has given are solo gameplay or soloing content with a companion (which technically isn’t soloing, per se).

This is a very limited scope of the game. No, ESO isn’t designed whereby everyone has to run in a group to play, yes, a lot is solo; but we can’t have skills that are only useful if one just so happens to be running solo non-end game content.

People have demonstrated with mechanics and values how Sorc pets don’t stand up. People have provided data showing that Sorc pets don’t pull their weight in harder hitting content.

People will say “oh, well the answer is to buff pets” .. well, no, it isn’t. And the reason why is because it isn’t simply that Sorc pets are just low DPS, it’s also their fundamental mechanics. That’s not something you can just “buff” .. you’d have to completely rebuild and redevelop them for them to have a useful place across all forms of ESO content.

And no, I don’t think anyone who has played this game and has any experience is going to agree that Sorc pets should be rebuilt in any fashion that sees them infringing upon other gameplay roles such as tanks.

I’m sorry but show me any other class where their skill tree is only good for certain solo content? There aren’t any. Every other class is broadly useful except ours.

It’s clear to me that the only rationale people are citing for keeping the pets are extremely limited use cases but moreso sentimental reasons not because there’s a legitimate, data driven reason to keep them.

Again, if it was just a matter of changing Sorc pet values to make them competitive and useful across more of the game, sure, keep them .. but that’s not the case, it’s mechanics.

Why can’t we move Sorc pets to a separate conjuring line? It would still allow a Sorc who wants to run pets to do so. It wouldn’t require subclassing nor would it cripple the class for the players who do more than solo a base game dungeon once per month. That seems like a fair compromise here.

I actually do not think that soloing or doing content with a companion is a "very limited scope of the game". I think that It's the end game community that is the minority here (I say this with no disrespect to them). That is probably because the development of the game took a turn towards a more casual crowd in the last (put your number here) years.

So, I do not feel that your dismissal of our concerns here based on the number of people who "solo" (in whatever form it might take) is justified.

Edit: I'm not capable of soloing Vet DLC dungeons, but I finished all DLC dungeons on normal with a companion that do not require another player to pull levers to open doors or require a communication with a living person (like indication which totem to attack). And while a companion was useless in quite a few of them due to standing in stupid, the Matriarch IS what make it possible for me.

So, I will repeat again: if they give me another skill that a) heals me and my companion reliably b) takes 1 slot c) not the only skill useful in the whole line (as in Dark Magic or a line designed for healers) I will take it. Unfortunately, I'm not confident that that is what we end up with after the rework. So, I'd rather keep my Matriarch and advocate for buffing it.

The Devs already did give you a single slot skill that will heal you and your companion, plus provide additional buffs, it’s called Scribing .. either of Usfelds or Soul Burst are more beneficial than the Twilight when it comes to heals, so to your request of having a comparable skill, it’s already here.

I have Ulfsild Contingency scribed for healing and used it a bit before, but I personally find it more cumbersome to use. It needs to be recast every so often + , correct me if I'm wrong, it triggers "when you cast an ability with a cost". Matriarch, as it stands right now, does not require any coordination and gives burst heals on demand as long as it's alive and the caster has magicka. May be I was using it wrong, but it was definitely less convenient to use.

spartaxoxo · February 19

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Before Sub-classing and before sustain was given out like candy, Dark Magic actually had a place in the game and was a good line. Even if we had sub-classing back then, Dark Magic would have been a good option to sub-class into because of the sustain it provides, but because every line has sustain somewhere now as well as other ways to get it that don't have the opportunity cost, Dark Magic doesn't get used anymore through no fault of it's own.

It doesn't get used because it's poorly designed. A skill line that could get replaced by potions and set bonuses was never going to last 10 years. It's actually completely outdated but I'm not going to suggest it get deleted just because I don't like Crystal Frags. Instead crystal drags needs buffs and then the other skills that aren't actually used need adjustments. Because the refresh should be about preserving player class identity not some backdoor to creating some new class that completely ignores how players have used the class.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This is incorrect, especially the point about the class sets. Sorcerers have always been mages making use of 3 schools of magic, Destruction (Storm Calling), Alteration (Dark Magic) and Conjuration (Daedric Summoning).

No. It's not incorrect. I never asserted that the class didn't have three skill lines nor that that those 3 skill lined never once had a use.

I said that lightning Sorcs and pet Sorcs are the primary builds people make and have made for several years now. And that is 100% accurate. You can't simultaneously make the argument that dark magic is underused "through no fault of its own," and then also claim it's wrong to claim that most people are using lightning or summoning. I don't think it's at all a coincidence that the least used skill line got its class mastery set last.

Comparing nerfs to the outright deletion of a class line is also bad faith. You can still ignore pets in this game. Deleting a skill line doesn't just make some other option more competitive, it completely removes the core identity of a ton of players. Sorcerors will rage quit the class (or the game) in droves if they completely delete class identity. And that's true of all the classes. I would definitely delete my sorc and would be sorely tempted to delete the game entirely if they do that.

BretonMage · February 19

ESO_player123 wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Lekjih wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

As ESO_player said, the Matriach ability is unique because it also heals one's companion anywhere they may be on the battlefield provided they're not too far away, damages and provides useful distraction when there are a lot of adds. It is therefore useful in soloing with a companion. It's saved me when I've been solo and hard-CC'ed.

If Sorcs are less competitive as they stand, the solution is to update the effectiveness of their skills, or to address pain points within the skill lines, not to replace skill lines wholesale. Suggestions like:

- Improve the effectiveness of the other morph, the Twilight Tormentor;
- Let one-pet sorcs be as effective as two-pet sorcs;
- Let the Twilight rest on the ground when not in motion. Etc.

And no, I do not like the Dark Magic aspect of the Sorc; I loathe the aesthetic, and it has so far been, with the exception of Crystal Fragments, pretty useless for DPS.

I've played a lightning and daedric summoning mage since TES Skyrim, and having the two skill lines in a class work exceptionally well. The mage calling down powerful lightning magic, while aided by daedric entities, makes perfect thematic sense. While I wholeheartedly support the calls for greater emphasis on the lightning aspect of the class, I equally strongly object against the calls for a replacement of the daedric summoning line.

This. We can't just cut off half a class for everyone because one person, or six vocal ones, don't like it. It needs a buff, not removal.
I've recently gone and made a baby sorc to play on as pure sorc and it's surprisingly bursty at times, but spines not hitting flying enemies reduces damage. I would change that. As someone who likes rocks and crystals, dinosaurs and rainstorms in real life, I've just been roleplaying her around Tamriel as a witch. Much fun. Pets should be viable in trials. Even if it makes the tanks question what they're taunting. Fun playstyles shouldn't be penalised. It is a game. It is supposed to be fun! I also don't thing necros are summoners the same way sorcs are. Sorcs have a contract and a permanent 'friend', wardens summon essence and make a permanent magic thrall essentially, while necros use bodies and throw them around untill they rot, collapse and disintegrate. I don't want to see scamps, clannfear, matriarch or storm atro on a necro base class, because necros revolve around corpse use, and sorc pets do not. That's like putting winter's embrace on a dk because fire and ice both temperature based elements.

Removing things wholesale is terrible for the health of the game - it will never go down well with everyone, because someone out there loves what you hate in a class. In terms of ZOS' bottom line, do the roleplayers or elite players spend more money on the game. I've met roleplayers with every house, costume, mount, bought 4k crown crates for a mount to roleplay with, and endgamers who proudly declare they only spend on eso plus (and only during an active prog!), but they stream trials every night and give the game publicity. Both are needed for the game's longevity. Driving away players by deleting their favourite pet from their favourite class isn't great.

But here’s the underlying problem … Sorc pets AREN‘T competitive and they can’t just be “tweaked” to be.

The only scenarios that anyone has given are solo gameplay or soloing content with a companion (which technically isn’t soloing, per se).

This is a very limited scope of the game. No, ESO isn’t designed whereby everyone has to run in a group to play, yes, a lot is solo; but we can’t have skills that are only useful if one just so happens to be running solo non-end game content.

People have demonstrated with mechanics and values how Sorc pets don’t stand up. People have provided data showing that Sorc pets don’t pull their weight in harder hitting content.

People will say “oh, well the answer is to buff pets” .. well, no, it isn’t. And the reason why is because it isn’t simply that Sorc pets are just low DPS, it’s also their fundamental mechanics. That’s not something you can just “buff” .. you’d have to completely rebuild and redevelop them for them to have a useful place across all forms of ESO content.

And no, I don’t think anyone who has played this game and has any experience is going to agree that Sorc pets should be rebuilt in any fashion that sees them infringing upon other gameplay roles such as tanks.

I’m sorry but show me any other class where their skill tree is only good for certain solo content? There aren’t any. Every other class is broadly useful except ours.

It’s clear to me that the only rationale people are citing for keeping the pets are extremely limited use cases but moreso sentimental reasons not because there’s a legitimate, data driven reason to keep them.

Again, if it was just a matter of changing Sorc pet values to make them competitive and useful across more of the game, sure, keep them .. but that’s not the case, it’s mechanics.

Why can’t we move Sorc pets to a separate conjuring line? It would still allow a Sorc who wants to run pets to do so. It wouldn’t require subclassing nor would it cripple the class for the players who do more than solo a base game dungeon once per month. That seems like a fair compromise here.

I actually do not think that soloing or doing content with a companion is a "very limited scope of the game". I think that It's the end game community that is the minority here (I say this with no disrespect to them). That is probably because the development of the game took a turn towards a more casual crowd in the last (put your number here) years.

So, I do not feel that your dismissal of our concerns here based on the number of people who "solo" (in whatever form it might take) is justified.

Edit: I'm not capable of soloing Vet DLC dungeons, but I finished all DLC dungeons on normal with a companion that do not require another player to pull levers to open doors or require a communication with a living person (like indication which totem to attack). And while a companion was useless in quite a few of them due to standing in stupid, the Matriarch IS what make it possible for me.

So, I will repeat again: if they give me another skill that a) heals me and my companion reliably b) takes 1 slot c) not the only skill useful in the whole line (as in Dark Magic or a line designed for healers) I will take it. Unfortunately, I'm not confident that that is what we end up with after the rework. So, I'd rather keep my Matriarch and advocate for buffing it.

The Devs already did give you a single slot skill that will heal you and your companion, plus provide additional buffs, it’s called Scribing .. either of Usfelds or Soul Burst are more beneficial than the Twilight when it comes to heals, so to your request of having a comparable skill, it’s already here.

I have Ulfsild Contingency scribed for healing and used it a bit before, but I personally find it more cumbersome to use. It needs to be recast every so often + , correct me if I'm wrong, it triggers "when you cast an ability with a cost". Matriarch, as it stands right now, does not require any coordination and gives burst heals on demand as long as it's alive and the caster has magicka. May be I was using it wrong, but it was definitely less convenient to use.

I agree. I've tried Ulfsild's (and hate it with a passion), Wield Soul and Soul Burst, and all of them are inferior to the Matriarch. Ulfsild's takes 2 casts to activate, and sometimes activates when you don't intend it to; Wield Soul only heals one person (the animation also is less instant than the Matriarch), and Soul Burst doesn't have enough range.

The Matriarch may need two slots, but its huge instant burst heal that effectively heals 2 people is worth it to me. It's only the the wings that bother me, really.

Master_Assassin999 · February 19

The first character I played in 2015 was a sorc, I mained that class and I did find it weird to have conjuration on the sorcerer. Out of every school, why does our dark Raiden know how to summon a parrot and a hare ?

I love the idea of a new class for conjuration where we would have daedric summoning

Everyone who is complaining about having to make a new character....yes, we used to do that since almost every major update before subclassing, it's fine

ESO_player123 · February 19

Master_Assassin999 wrote: »

The first character I played in 2015 was a sorc, I mained that class and I did find it weird to have conjuration on the sorcerer. Out of every school, why does our dark Raiden know how to summon a parrot and a hare ?

I love the idea of a new class for conjuration where we would have daedric summoning

Everyone who is complaining about having to make a new character....yes, we used to do that since almost every major update before subclassing, it's fine

You find it weird, I do not. So, it's a matter of preference. And Sorcs are not summoning parrots or hares, they are specifically summoning Daedra.
Lore wise it looks like Mages Guild's mages summon them right and left, be it on a battlefield or if they simply need to deliver a message. There is even a lorebook where a Dremora complains about Vanus Galerion summoning it for his needs (and being bullied afterwards because of that). Unfortunately, I do not remember the title, but I found it amusing.

Edit: and I will gladly create a new character if they create a new class. I hope that they will not forget to add another free slot for that.

ZhuJiuyin · February 19

Master_Assassin999 wrote: »

The first character I played in 2015 was a sorc, I mained that class and I did find it weird to have conjuration on the sorcerer. Out of every school, why does our dark Raiden know how to summon a parrot and a hare ?

I love the idea of a new class for conjuration where we would have daedric summoning

Everyone who is complaining about having to make a new character....yes, we used to do that since almost every major update before subclassing, it's fine

I understand that feeling. When I first saw Sorc, I also thought it would be a class focused on destruction spells, with summoning spells as a secondary or supportive element. Who knew that later, especially after U35, pets became the only viable way to play Sorc in PvE, to the point that many Sorc players I know abandoned Sorc altogether.

I know that pets are still loved by some people in some niche gameplay, but instead of letting Sorc be held back by the current pet gameplay, it would be better to add a universal pet skill line so that Sorc can get rid of the limitations brought by pets.

Master_Assassin999 · February 19

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Master_Assassin999 wrote: »

The first character I played in 2015 was a sorc, I mained that class and I did find it weird to have conjuration on the sorcerer. Out of every school, why does our dark Raiden know how to summon a parrot and a hare ?

I love the idea of a new class for conjuration where we would have daedric summoning

Everyone who is complaining about having to make a new character....yes, we used to do that since almost every major update before subclassing, it's fine

You find it weird, I do not. So, it's a matter of preference. And Sorcs are not summoning parrots or hares, they are specifically summoning Daedra.
Lore wise it looks like Mages Guild's mages summon them right and left, be it on a battlefield or if they simply need to deliver a message. There is even a lorebook where a Dremora complains about Vanus Galerion summoning it for his needs (and being bullied afterwards because of that). Unfortunately, I do not remember the title, but I found it amusing.

Edit: and I will gladly create a new character if they create a new class. I hope that they will not forget to add another free slot for that.

Right, the parrot, hare, and even the atronach, could then be moved to a "public" skill line, like mage's guild

Yudo · February 19

BretonMage wrote: »

As ESO_player said, the Matriach ability is unique because it also heals one's companion anywhere they may be on the battlefield provided they're not too far away, damages and provides useful distraction when there are a lot of adds. It is therefore useful in soloing with a companion. It's saved me when I've been solo and hard-CC'ed.

If Sorcs are less competitive as they stand, the solution is to update the effectiveness of their skills, or to address pain points within the skill lines, not to replace skill lines wholesale. Suggestions like:

- Improve the effectiveness of the other morph, the Twilight Tormentor;
- Let one-pet sorcs be as effective as two-pet sorcs;
- Let the Twilight rest on the ground when not in motion. Etc.

And no, I do not like the Dark Magic aspect of the Sorc; I loathe the aesthetic, and it has so far been, with the exception of Crystal Fragments, pretty useless for DPS.

I've played a lightning and daedric summoning mage since TES Skyrim, and having the two skill lines in a class work exceptionally well. The mage calling down powerful lightning magic, while aided by daedric entities, makes perfect thematic sense. While I wholeheartedly support the calls for greater emphasis on the lightning aspect of the class, I equally strongly object against the calls for a replacement of the daedric summoning line.

The rework is needed because the contradiction exist. The pain point to address within the skill line is also non-pet sorc. As long as this is not solved, they are just shuffling things around for the pet sorc again.

Dark magic line is what give the sorcerer the flavour of being more than an elemental mage and I love it. The skills are very useful, though maybe not popular in the current meta and multiclass system, that is again what rework should attempt to fix.

Skill lines like Dark magic can be improved but must be preserved. Lightning seems obvious it needs to be there. The crux is to find a solution for the Daedric line that is inclusive to non-pet sorc if the theme is not changing.

BretonMage · February 19

Yudo wrote: »

The crux is to find a solution for the Daedric line that is inclusive to non-pet sorc if the theme is not changing.

Yeah, that would be a lot better than expecting daedric pets to be moved out of the sorc toolkit. Off the top of my head, I think that bound weapons skills could be an avenue for non-pet sorcs to use the daedric summoning line. We have one skill, Bound Armaments, but they could do a lot more with this theme.

Turtle_Bot · February 19

Yudo wrote: »

The crux is to find a solution for the Daedric line that is inclusive to non-pet sorc if the theme is not changing.

This right here is probably the key take away to this whole debate surrounding Sorcerer (pet v non-pet).

So far ZOS has only really gone in the opposite direction (trying to force everything to work with/revolve around the pets) and all that has done is tear the class (and it's players) even further apart.

BretonMage wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

The crux is to find a solution for the Daedric line that is inclusive to non-pet sorc if the theme is not changing.

Yeah, that would be a lot better than expecting daedric pets to be moved out of the sorc toolkit. Off the top of my head, I think that bound weapons skills could be an avenue for non-pet sorcs to use the daedric summoning line. We have one skill, Bound Armaments, but they could do a lot more with this theme.

My guess is (if ZOS is not going to separate the pets from sorc entirely) that ZOS will have to use morphs to differentiate pet v non pet builds instead of specific skills/skill lines and have specific morphs tie in with pets or function entirely without them (while ensuring that both playstyles are equally viable to each other as well as with the other classes).

Sort of like how Curse does it where prey is the clear pet morph with it's bonus to pet damage, but the other morph is a standard delayed burst ability (albeit a rather mediocre one now) that has nothing to do with the pets, but it needs to be done across more skills and with more up to date abilities and effects.

The main issue I see with doing this though is it's likely to cut into the stamsorc and shieldless sorc playstyles if not done carefully (yes there is more to sorc than just magsorc and petsorc and even stamsorc, so ZOS definitely has their work cut out for them to get this one right).

Malyore · February 19

RebornV3x wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

your going to get a useless class that is bad at both spell casting and pets that suck.

How?

RebornV3x wrote: »

Unless ZOS is gonna give Sorcerer another skill line or two to accommodate both play styles they have to choose battle mage or summoner.

Why?

RebornV3x wrote: »

The Sorcerer can not continue to be pulled in two different directions at once

Why?

You have 3 class skill lines,18 skills and 15 passives by trying to accommodate both pet sorcerers and non pet sorcs your essentially splitting the class in half so at BEST your gonna have 6 or 7 pet related skills and 6 or 7 other rando skills.

How would adding dual functionality to skills/passives, or making diverse morphs lessen the amount of skills available to each playstyle?

That's the neat part you wouldn't get dual functionality there's only so many class skills and passives you have access to
instead you could get a cool dedicated combat pet class or a cool and powerful lighting and dark magic class. But not both theirs currently not enough skills to do it.

Why aren't there enough skills to do it? What do you think dual functionality and separate/diverse morphs means in this context?

IviRo · February 19

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

The crux is to find a solution for the Daedric line that is inclusive to non-pet sorc if the theme is not changing.

This right here is probably the key take away to this whole debate surrounding Sorcerer (pet v non-pet).

So far ZOS has only really gone in the opposite direction (trying to force everything to work with/revolve around the pets) and all that has done is tear the class (and it's players) even further apart.

BretonMage wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

The crux is to find a solution for the Daedric line that is inclusive to non-pet sorc if the theme is not changing.

Yeah, that would be a lot better than expecting daedric pets to be moved out of the sorc toolkit. Off the top of my head, I think that bound weapons skills could be an avenue for non-pet sorcs to use the daedric summoning line. We have one skill, Bound Armaments, but they could do a lot more with this theme.

My guess is (if ZOS is not going to separate the pets from sorc entirely) that ZOS will have to use morphs to differentiate pet v non pet builds instead of specific skills/skill lines and have specific morphs tie in with pets or function entirely without them (while ensuring that both playstyles are equally viable to each other as well as with the other classes).

Sort of like how Curse does it where prey is the clear pet morph with it's bonus to pet damage, but the other morph is a standard delayed burst ability (albeit a rather mediocre one now) that has nothing to do with the pets, but it needs to be done across more skills and with more up to date abilities and effects.

The main issue I see with doing this though is it's likely to cut into the stamsorc and shieldless sorc playstyles if not done carefully (yes there is more to sorc than just magsorc and petsorc and even stamsorc, so ZOS definitely has their work cut out for them to get this one right).

Curse/prey - In my opinion, this ability should be transferred to the Dark Magic line. This ability makes more sense in this line than in the Daedric Summoning line.

Turtle_Bot · February 19

IviRo wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

The crux is to find a solution for the Daedric line that is inclusive to non-pet sorc if the theme is not changing.

This right here is probably the key take away to this whole debate surrounding Sorcerer (pet v non-pet).

So far ZOS has only really gone in the opposite direction (trying to force everything to work with/revolve around the pets) and all that has done is tear the class (and it's players) even further apart.

BretonMage wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

The crux is to find a solution for the Daedric line that is inclusive to non-pet sorc if the theme is not changing.

Yeah, that would be a lot better than expecting daedric pets to be moved out of the sorc toolkit. Off the top of my head, I think that bound weapons skills could be an avenue for non-pet sorcs to use the daedric summoning line. We have one skill, Bound Armaments, but they could do a lot more with this theme.

My guess is (if ZOS is not going to separate the pets from sorc entirely) that ZOS will have to use morphs to differentiate pet v non pet builds instead of specific skills/skill lines and have specific morphs tie in with pets or function entirely without them (while ensuring that both playstyles are equally viable to each other as well as with the other classes).

Sort of like how Curse does it where prey is the clear pet morph with it's bonus to pet damage, but the other morph is a standard delayed burst ability (albeit a rather mediocre one now) that has nothing to do with the pets, but it needs to be done across more skills and with more up to date abilities and effects.

The main issue I see with doing this though is it's likely to cut into the stamsorc and shieldless sorc playstyles if not done carefully (yes there is more to sorc than just magsorc and petsorc and even stamsorc, so ZOS definitely has their work cut out for them to get this one right).

Curse/prey - In my opinion, this ability should be transferred to the Dark Magic line. This ability makes more sense in this line than in the Daedric Summoning line.

I agree with this and it's something I have suggested often, my reasons on curse had more to do with how it separates the ability into playstyles by it's morphs (1 for pets, other for non-pets) rather than tying the whole ability (both morphs) to the pets, which would exclude it from non-pet sorcs.

ESO_player123 · February 19

Master_Assassin999 wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Master_Assassin999 wrote: »

The first character I played in 2015 was a sorc, I mained that class and I did find it weird to have conjuration on the sorcerer. Out of every school, why does our dark Raiden know how to summon a parrot and a hare ?

I love the idea of a new class for conjuration where we would have daedric summoning

Everyone who is complaining about having to make a new character....yes, we used to do that since almost every major update before subclassing, it's fine

You find it weird, I do not. So, it's a matter of preference. And Sorcs are not summoning parrots or hares, they are specifically summoning Daedra.
Lore wise it looks like Mages Guild's mages summon them right and left, be it on a battlefield or if they simply need to deliver a message. There is even a lorebook where a Dremora complains about Vanus Galerion summoning it for his needs (and being bullied afterwards because of that). Unfortunately, I do not remember the title, but I found it amusing.

Edit: and I will gladly create a new character if they create a new class. I hope that they will not forget to add another free slot for that.

Right, the parrot, hare, and even the atronach, could then be moved to a "public" skill line, like mage's guild

Following that logic the Assassination line could then be moved to Dark Brotherhood guild because they are all asssassins.

NxJoeyD · February 19

ESO_player123 wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Lekjih wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

As ESO_player said, the Matriach ability is unique because it also heals one's companion anywhere they may be on the battlefield provided they're not too far away, damages and provides useful distraction when there are a lot of adds. It is therefore useful in soloing with a companion. It's saved me when I've been solo and hard-CC'ed.

If Sorcs are less competitive as they stand, the solution is to update the effectiveness of their skills, or to address pain points within the skill lines, not to replace skill lines wholesale. Suggestions like:

- Improve the effectiveness of the other morph, the Twilight Tormentor;
- Let one-pet sorcs be as effective as two-pet sorcs;
- Let the Twilight rest on the ground when not in motion. Etc.

And no, I do not like the Dark Magic aspect of the Sorc; I loathe the aesthetic, and it has so far been, with the exception of Crystal Fragments, pretty useless for DPS.

I've played a lightning and daedric summoning mage since TES Skyrim, and having the two skill lines in a class work exceptionally well. The mage calling down powerful lightning magic, while aided by daedric entities, makes perfect thematic sense. While I wholeheartedly support the calls for greater emphasis on the lightning aspect of the class, I equally strongly object against the calls for a replacement of the daedric summoning line.

This. We can't just cut off half a class for everyone because one person, or six vocal ones, don't like it. It needs a buff, not removal.
I've recently gone and made a baby sorc to play on as pure sorc and it's surprisingly bursty at times, but spines not hitting flying enemies reduces damage. I would change that. As someone who likes rocks and crystals, dinosaurs and rainstorms in real life, I've just been roleplaying her around Tamriel as a witch. Much fun. Pets should be viable in trials. Even if it makes the tanks question what they're taunting. Fun playstyles shouldn't be penalised. It is a game. It is supposed to be fun! I also don't thing necros are summoners the same way sorcs are. Sorcs have a contract and a permanent 'friend', wardens summon essence and make a permanent magic thrall essentially, while necros use bodies and throw them around untill they rot, collapse and disintegrate. I don't want to see scamps, clannfear, matriarch or storm atro on a necro base class, because necros revolve around corpse use, and sorc pets do not. That's like putting winter's embrace on a dk because fire and ice both temperature based elements.

Removing things wholesale is terrible for the health of the game - it will never go down well with everyone, because someone out there loves what you hate in a class. In terms of ZOS' bottom line, do the roleplayers or elite players spend more money on the game. I've met roleplayers with every house, costume, mount, bought 4k crown crates for a mount to roleplay with, and endgamers who proudly declare they only spend on eso plus (and only during an active prog!), but they stream trials every night and give the game publicity. Both are needed for the game's longevity. Driving away players by deleting their favourite pet from their favourite class isn't great.

But here’s the underlying problem … Sorc pets AREN‘T competitive and they can’t just be “tweaked” to be.

The only scenarios that anyone has given are solo gameplay or soloing content with a companion (which technically isn’t soloing, per se).

This is a very limited scope of the game. No, ESO isn’t designed whereby everyone has to run in a group to play, yes, a lot is solo; but we can’t have skills that are only useful if one just so happens to be running solo non-end game content.

People have demonstrated with mechanics and values how Sorc pets don’t stand up. People have provided data showing that Sorc pets don’t pull their weight in harder hitting content.

People will say “oh, well the answer is to buff pets” .. well, no, it isn’t. And the reason why is because it isn’t simply that Sorc pets are just low DPS, it’s also their fundamental mechanics. That’s not something you can just “buff” .. you’d have to completely rebuild and redevelop them for them to have a useful place across all forms of ESO content.

And no, I don’t think anyone who has played this game and has any experience is going to agree that Sorc pets should be rebuilt in any fashion that sees them infringing upon other gameplay roles such as tanks.

I’m sorry but show me any other class where their skill tree is only good for certain solo content? There aren’t any. Every other class is broadly useful except ours.

It’s clear to me that the only rationale people are citing for keeping the pets are extremely limited use cases but moreso sentimental reasons not because there’s a legitimate, data driven reason to keep them.

Again, if it was just a matter of changing Sorc pet values to make them competitive and useful across more of the game, sure, keep them .. but that’s not the case, it’s mechanics.

Why can’t we move Sorc pets to a separate conjuring line? It would still allow a Sorc who wants to run pets to do so. It wouldn’t require subclassing nor would it cripple the class for the players who do more than solo a base game dungeon once per month. That seems like a fair compromise here.

I actually do not think that soloing or doing content with a companion is a "very limited scope of the game". I think that It's the end game community that is the minority here (I say this with no disrespect to them). That is probably because the development of the game took a turn towards a more casual crowd in the last (put your number here) years.

So, I do not feel that your dismissal of our concerns here based on the number of people who "solo" (in whatever form it might take) is justified.

Edit: I'm not capable of soloing Vet DLC dungeons, but I finished all DLC dungeons on normal with a companion that do not require another player to pull levers to open doors or require a communication with a living person (like indication which totem to attack). And while a companion was useless in quite a few of them due to standing in stupid, the Matriarch IS what make it possible for me.

So, I will repeat again: if they give me another skill that a) heals me and my companion reliably b) takes 1 slot c) not the only skill useful in the whole line (as in Dark Magic or a line designed for healers) I will take it. Unfortunately, I'm not confident that that is what we end up with after the rework. So, I'd rather keep my Matriarch and advocate for buffing it.

The Devs already did give you a single slot skill that will heal you and your companion, plus provide additional buffs, it’s called Scribing .. either of Usfelds or Soul Burst are more beneficial than the Twilight when it comes to heals, so to your request of having a comparable skill, it’s already here.

I have Ulfsild Contingency scribed for healing and used it a bit before, but I personally find it more cumbersome to use. It needs to be recast every so often + , correct me if I'm wrong, it triggers "when you cast an ability with a cost". Matriarch, as it stands right now, does not require any coordination and gives burst heals on demand as long as it's alive and the caster has magicka. May be I was using it wrong, but it was definitely less convenient to use.

Usfelds does take a learning curve to get used to because what you’re, basically, doing is pre-paying the GCD to enable dual skill proccing.

Both Soul Burst and Usfelds can provide heals to yourself or a companion, it’s not solely a self heal. And yes, depending on how you have scribed it one would need to recast it periodically depending on scenario, scribe, & build. Usfelds is an immensely popular skill due to its versatility. Proper use of a self heal is a cornerstone of combat strategy, self healing is supposed to be a supplement to combat, a factor of combat, not a persistent “get out of trouble” card.

I would agree that Usfelds is less convenient, however, Soul burst isn’t, that’s immediate.

Now, if the concern is also that neither Soul Burst nor Usfelds provide as much healing then that’s where I’m going to default back to Sorcs Vibrant Shroud, which does provide a very strong heal for yourself and your companions.

Just because you aren’t slotting any of those abilites doesn’t mean that they aren’t an option, which all see the Pets redundant. The healing mechanics already exist for Sorc without having to subclass, so again, we don’t need pets as part of our class.

Making them a conjuring world line would still let you or anyone else who wants them to slot them but at the same time open up skill spaces for DPS or utility that we very much need.

Again, Sorc pets are just not good enough when it comes to things like end game PvE or any PvP content, and that’s a lot of the game.

spartaxoxo · February 19

BretonMage wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

The crux is to find a solution for the Daedric line that is inclusive to non-pet sorc if the theme is not changing.

Yeah, that would be a lot better than expecting daedric pets to be moved out of the sorc toolkit. Off the top of my head, I think that bound weapons skills could be an avenue for non-pet sorcs to use the daedric summoning line. We have one skill, Bound Armaments, but they could do a lot more with this theme.

Having the least used pet morphs become bound weapons would actually good be a good way to bolster non-pet Sorcs without completely obliterating and deleting pet Sorcs.

Lekjih · February 19

I think complaining about pets on a class that has always had pets is redundant. They have always been there. It is part of the class. There's a video out there of a British morning show where a woman makes a comment that the dish just needs one ingredient to be an entirely different dish, and the chef replies that his granny could have wheels and then she would be a bike, but she doesn't so she isn't (as in, things are what they are). There are a huge number of people who do not come to the forums, or read patch notes or watch youtube videos. Imagine their horror when they log on and their pets are missing. Not a reasonable ask tbh.

Something I would like to see is conduit reworked into something similar to Conduit from vKA second boss, where it chains to mobs and players within a certain range. The current conduit is outshone by pretty much any lightning aoe from destro line and the lightning with chains could make it more useful in pvp. Needs testing of course.

NxJoeyD · February 19

Lekjih wrote: »

I think complaining about pets on a class that has always had pets is redundant. They have always been there. It is part of the class. There's a video out there of a British morning show where a woman makes a comment that the dish just needs one ingredient to be an entirely different dish, and the chef replies that his granny could have wheels and then she would be a bike, but she doesn't so she isn't (as in, things are what they are). There are a huge number of people who do not come to the forums, or read patch notes or watch youtube videos. Imagine their horror when they log on and their pets are missing. Not a reasonable ask tbh.

Something I would like to see is conduit reworked into something similar to Conduit from vKA second boss, where it chains to mobs and players within a certain range. The current conduit is outshone by pretty much any lightning aoe from destro line and the lightning with chains could make it more useful in pvp. Needs testing of course.

The basis that we should keep something because it’s always been there has, historically, shown to be short sighted.

I think many of us can identify numerous things which have evolved away from what they used to be into things that are much better and more acceptable and I think that’s what people are asking for here.

Again, we can’t just look at Sorc in a vacuum. Sure they’ve always had pets but that was also before the Devs went and cooked up Necro and gave them much more summoning lore and better mechanically operating pets.

Too many things across the whole game have changed which makes the argument of keeping pets simply because they’ve always been there less viable. We can have Sorc still keep aspects of Daedric lore, it just doesn’t have to be pets.

spartaxoxo · February 19

They also made wardens into the nature mages but ultimately you don't see people arguing that lightning should be the thing deleted and moved to warden. If you want to play a nature mage so bad, you could go play Warden.

Daedric pets are a staple of the Elder Scrolls franchise and a staple of the Sorcerer in particular in ESO. It is by far one of the most popular setups for Sorcerer. I don't like how other people play the game is not a valid reason to delete 11 years of work of someone else. And that's what most of the arguments boil down towards because buffs fix competitive weakness, which has not always been the case.

When you take drastic negative and permanent action against players that undoes over a decade of work then that requires equally weighty reasons. A handful of players finding a skill line weird isn't one of those things. The fact of the matter is that those that don't want to play with permanent pets have 19 skill lines to choose from. If you want to play with permanent pets there are 2. And only 1 of those actually had the whole skill line devoted to supporting it. You are not at a disadvantage if you don't like pets. The decision to slot a permanent pet skill line when you don't like pets is entirely self inflicted. You are already the one with the wealth of options.