I hate subclassing but removing it would make people who like it angry and set a precedent of ZOS removing features.

I may have little interest in or use for subclassing, but it's in the game now, and plenty of people enjoy it. Removing it wouldn't serve much purpose at all in the end.

No. I like and am having fun with it. I have some pure classes, but some I've subbed and liking the mix. It's the closest thing to being able to change a class, which I wanted to do with some of my older characters.

Permanently removed? No.
Disable subclassing to fix it? Yes.
Disable subclassing and bring it back once subclassing can properly fit after changes? Yes.
Should ZOS disable subclassing until they find a good way to make it complement other classes? Yes.
Should ZOS disable subclassing until any class using subclassing loses power instead of becoming stronger? Yes!

So, remove it forever? No.

Disable it until ZOS finds a fair solution that preserves both class identity and subclassing? Yes.

no, but it definitely needs some changes. i don't use it. i don't plan on using it. there are ppl who hate it and those who love it. but ppl definitely shouldn't be subpar just because they want to use a pure class. it needs reworked. it shouldn't have been put in the way they did. which they were told on the pts servers. but oh well

Absolutely not and I'm also not sure why anyone would choose to remove options from other players when they instead should focus on balancing the pure classes to compete with subclassing instead.

I have characters that subclass and others that don't, and I'd be pretty irritated if they removed a feature I've been using because people are too impatient to wait for balancing.

NO !!
I worked my butt off to level up all my subclass skills and since my partner returned to eso recently i am helping him level up his subclass skill lines. I don't want to see all my time and effort wasted.

I am also enjoying subclassing.

I believe those that are against subclassing is cos they feel intimidated by the change and havent even attempted to try it. I too felt intimidated and overwhelmed by the chages but not anymore.

If zos can balance the pure classes to come into alighnment with subclassing then we shall have a win/win. Also the arcanist damage needs to be nerfed to allow other skill lines to match herald of the tome potency. Then we will see more viable builds for damage and subclassing wont seem such a 'one trick pony' as far as the meta for damage.

I'll have to go with "no" for a couple of reasons. Probably the first is that ZOS does not remove content. They've been known to nerf it into borderline irrelevancy on occasion, but not remove it.

The second is that subclassing is/was the solution to character class being hard-coded into the game to the point of immutability. While everything else about a character could be changed, sometimes for a real-cash price, the only work-around to being class-locked was to make a new character. Subclassing mostly circumvents that with the notable exceptions of class-locked gear sets and the Class Mastery script.

From my perspective, the major problem with subclassing is that it was OP'd at the implementation stage. That gripe is further compounded by the devs flat-out stating beforehand that they knew it was going to be OP'd; I believe the comment was "there will be a power spike and we're willing to live with that," or something to that effect. Now the scramble seems to be how to fix it because that particular genie is not going back into the bottle.

The solution probably will end up being added buffs to pure-class characters or nerfs to subclassed skills (probably changing up passives; that seems the path of least resistance to my inexpert eye) or both, but I fully that expect any change to the current subclassing system to be accompanied by assorted howls of outrage.

Didn't we already have a thread about removing subclassing from a few weeks ago?

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/683535/would-you-be-okay-with-subclassing-being-rolled-back/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/680564/do-you-think-zos-should-rollback-subclassing-and-focus-on-class-balance-instead/p1

We can have a hundred of these polls, but they clearly aren't rolling back subclassing. It would be far more productive to offer suggestions for how they can rework and balance it properly, particularly in the context of what they recently announced with the class rework.

Couldn’t have said it better. 👏

I'm surprised by how many people voted no. In an effort to rationalize the results so far, I'll say the folks who voted no are either casual players who don't care about playing meta builds, or that the good folks who would have voted yes have already left the game, which is why they're underrepresented in the poll.
I just don't understand how anybody who plays endgame and uses meta builds would ever be happy with subclassing. I say remove it, and remove hybridization, even though I know neither one of those things will ever happen.

Use it, don't use it, the choice is ultimately up to each individual.

It surprises me the amount of hate subclassing gets but scribing is largely ignored.

I tried subclassing but went back to my preferred mix of Class/Weapon and scribed skills, I don't think I've ever had a class that uses only class skills!

I don't take part in "Endgame" PVE number crunching, maybe that is where subclassing is annoying people or is it also getting under peoples skin in PVP?

I just think any game is about choices to achieve what you wish to achieve, if I wanted to prog vet trials, I would expect to conform with the group's required builds, same if I joined an organised PVP group

If I just wanted to join guild run trials groups I would prefer to use a build I am familiar and comfortable with, as long as that build did the required DPS, which my non subclassed builds can do easily.

I really cannot understand why so many people have got their knickers in a twist over this!!

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

I'm surprised by how many people voted no. In an effort to rationalize the results so far, I'll say the folks who voted no are either casual players who don't care about playing meta builds, or that the good folks who would have voted yes have already left the game, which is why they're underrepresented in the poll.
I just don't understand how anybody who plays endgame and uses meta builds would ever be happy with subclassing. I say remove it, and remove hybridization, even though I know neither one of those things will ever happen.

Yea pretty much, every other poll related to this subject has been a perfect even split of divisiveness. It gets a little bit touchier though when a complete removal is mentioned since it's apparently an aberration of a thought.

Radiate77 wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

I really cannot understand why so many people have got their knickers in a twist over this!!

It’s quite easy to understand.

You have these mid-tier players all trying to push content they are not ready for, being forced into builds they do not want to play because they have neither the experience, knowledge, or reputation to play something deemed “off-meta.”

They follow cookie-cutter builds from their favorite content creators, and now those creators are complaining because build videos are their job, and mid-tier strugglers are not interested in 2nd best, so they get not even a quarter of the add revenue that they would normally. Negative affirmation takes hold, and then you have those same mid players stumbling onto a forum to complain about how unhappy they are, oblivious to the incoming Class Reworks designed to help them.

“Source: dude, trust me.”

People dislike subclassing for a lot of different reasons. Trying to paint everyone who disagrees with you as the same kind of player, based on guesses and no real proof, doesn’t really help your point. It just comes off as dismissive.

So, here is the reason why me and many other end game PvE players dislike subclassing, and think it was a terrible idea to begin with.
It removes weaknesses from classes, simple as that. What this means is that there is no reason to play anything else, but a specific build which is strongest in all categories. Right now it's Herald of the Tome + Assassination + (any skill line), but even if they were to nerf this, it still wont solve the core problem with this system.

I know people like to say that "there is always a meta and people will play the strongest build etc etc." which while true, completely misses the point. My question is, strongest build for what?
Let's take U45 end game meta as an example. Arcanist was a good, all around class but not always the best. In shorter fights Necromancer with the Goliath ultimate had by far the most DPS, but it came with a downside of being a lot harder to play, and not being able to gain ultimate while in the Goliath form, which made it suboptimal for extended fights. Templar on the other hand was the best single target build, because of the access to an insanely strong execute, but you didn't want to stack a team full of them because you would not have enough damage early on in the fight + your groups AoE damage would we a lot weaker (though this was mitigated by Azureblight). DK was the best class in Rockgrove and a strong class overall. There wasn't a single "best meta build" as people with zero insight in the matter make it out to seem. Was the meta perfect? Absolutely not, sorc was there only for the atronach and warden and NB were in the PvP jail, plus every build relied on Azureblight to keep up with arcanist in AoE. But for all it's faults, U45 had build variety.

How has this changed with subclassing?
Now you can remove the weaknesses from your class entirely and you end up with a build that is great in all situations. Why would you bring a build with more single target damage, when everyone could just pick the skill line with the most single target damage and call it a day? Right now you can pick assassination, herald of the tome and ardent flame and you have a build with the highest AoE damage, and the highest single target damage. For there to be a reason to bring multiple different builds into a trial, those builds would have to fill a gap the general build cannot, but since you can customize the general build to have more AoE, more single target, an execute, a reverse execute, more mobility etc etc. where is the room for other builds?

Even if they nerf the current top builds, there will still remain a core build, which does everything well (by picking the strongest AoE, and the strongest single target skill line), and one skill line for adapting to what's needed. Maybe it's a single execute beam or DKs standard, but the core build and 90% of your skill casts will remain the same.



Hopefully this helped answer why this system ruined the game for a lot of people who don't like playing the same build in every single situation.

Marto wrote: »

The main reason why subclassing is bad is the classes not being designed around it.

If the upcoming Class Refreshes works to update the classes to modern standards, reinforce the identity of solo classes, and make the decision of subclassing less clear-cut (For example, the reason why everyone subclassed into Nightblade is that Nightblade has little identity other than "deals more damage")... then subclassing has the potential to be good.

I can accept the class refreshes as a fair compromise, that I will have very low expectations of since over the course of 11 years of decisions, every time I've been optimistic has led to disappointment as the game grew more and more ridiculously imbalanced. I agree that with proper balancing subclassing -might- not feel like such a detriment to how I've grown to enjoy this mmo for 11 years. But the fact that subclassing exists is evidence of a complete dismissal to class identity and what made each class feel like a fun and different experience in all avenues of the game. I would rather it be completely removed.

BananaBender wrote: »

It removes weaknesses from classes, simple as that. What this means is that there is no reason to play anything else, but a specific build which is strongest in all categories.

Yes, yes and YES to literally your entire post, thank you. This right here is one of the core aspects of class identity, and how it functions in an MMORPG. Limitations by class. One class has limitations but outliers in power and performance. And another class offsets limitations of that class, while having its own limitations uplifted. Group composition, diversification in roster templates, teamwork. Every class has its uses, every single roster should aim to have a MINIMUM of every 7 classes in the roster for all relevant group buffs. It should be like an ornate jigsaw puzzle that looks stunningly spectacular when all the pieces are pieced together. And I don't say this as a mandatory requirement or expectation, but that it should occur NATURALLY and by accident. A baseline, if there's accidental cases as a common, this would be indicative of class identity and balance at its apex.