[I am posting this on behalf of a friend who does not have a forum account at the moment, I will forward any replies of interest to him.]

After Playing Vengeance and reading hundreds and hundreds of players opinions and thoughts on the Test-campaign I wanted to give my 2 cents on the matter.

Let me start by introducing myself. I am KhamulESO, I have been playing ESO since 2016 and have over 10k hours in the game. I mainly PVP, but I PVP differently from most. I roleplay within my PVP, meaning I make my characters look a certain way - in my case like my favourite LOTR characters. I then create a thematic build that goes with the look of the character, fully trying to embrace a theme, playstyle, and story. You can do this with any roleplay that you want to do. (If you're confused to what this means, and this is no self promo, you can check out my YouTube channel to see the joy and passion I have for what I do. We have organized huge RP events and a lot of people have been inspired or reinvigorated in the game through their love for being creative with character building, which is confirmed by the amount of people that have started following me and are embracing the RP aspect of ESO since I started streaming 6,5 months ago, no flex intended).

The customization system in ESO allows RP to be so much more fun and an absolute unique experience compared to any other MMORPG out there. Playing like this is very rewarding and motivates me to become better and more creative every single day. With every new class, set, change to skills, or new systems like scribing, my brain sets off thinking about what roleplay build I can create or improve. This makes me wanna invest time and effort into progressing my characters, which IMO is exactly what an MMORPG is all about. The flexibility and customisation of ESO is incredibly motivating and exciting when it comes to trying to improve builds, get better at gameplay, and delve into all the options and details this game has to offer.

Cyrodiil test

Right now ZoS are testing Cyrodiil PVP for performance, so they have stripped away all customisation and character progression.

First and foremost, I wanna say I admire the courage of doing this and like the fact that they're trying to find a solution to the performance issues. I also wanna make sure you guys understand that I am not defending the current state of PVP, and all the flaws and issues that we know it has.

ZoS has stated that this is never going to be the final form of how PVP would look like and that this is necessary to stress test the servers and see later on in possible future tests what the pain points are of causing the lag and desync. Zos Also hasnt confirmed this is gonna lead to anything in how theyre gonna develop pvp forward it is a test! This whole thought experiment is for the people who DO say they want to see this the permanent form of PVP!

I like that ZoS is trying to figure these things out, and I think we can learn a lot by asking these questions:

•Has sustain been too easy to come by?
•Did we lose too much class identity?
•Do people wanna feel part of something big?
•Do newer players have too big a bridge to gap?
•Could the game provide better education on how to improve?
•Do certain playstyles become too powerful and obnoxious to fight against?


The current test has given us a PVP gamemode with seven classes and 12 slottable skills (out of 18 options to pick from). ZoS has given everyone the same stats (weapon damage, health, stamina, magicka), an unlimited potion to use, and a small number of siege weapons.

The result? Exactly what ZoS wanted and what a lot of us expected: great performance.

It’s great that we have performance, great that we have large scale battles - at least on the surface level.

People are screaming from the top of their lungs how much they like this version of PVP. And by and large they give the following reasons:

•Large scale fights are epic and cool
•Class identity
•No lag
•No combat bug
•Everyone is equal, regardless of level or gear.

What does this mean?

This means that there is a significant portion of players that just wanna be a part of a big battle and have a feeling of being able to be successful doing that.

This results in short-term fun. Which is what we see expressed by the massive amount of positivity around the Vengeance campaign.

This all sounds great! So what’s the issue?

I have a question I want everyone to think about. What exactly is the ‘fun’ in this?
(This is not a gotcha question but a sincere look into what does it mean when we say we have fun)

When you’re standing in front of this keep with 100 vs 100 (which is cool) what action do you personally take to create this fun? What decision as a player do you make to create a moment of fulfilment, impact or satisfaction? Do you become siege number 30 and shoot at the door? Do you become the guy that tosses a 83d light attack at the mass of people on top of the wall? If this is genuinely fun for you, is it fair to say that this deserves a seperate gamemode and not a replacement to the PvP mode we have? (Which is what some people are actually saying)

In reality, I see most people doing nothing, stand still and spectating. So again, where is the fun gameplay in this? Is it fun as spectacle, I would say yes! But where is the gameplay loop that makes you wanna come back in the long run?

I know fun is subjective, so lemme give my subjective take.

We are playing an MMORPG, meaning we play a game where we build a character up and through progression systems and items we find around the world, we gain power for our character, and we then make decisions for our characters to create a playstyle of our preference.

ESO has, by far, the most interesting system in this regard in the MMORPG space and it allows you to make so many small choices and decisions to make your character unique, powerful, and fun according to your personal preferences. We can roleplay whatever we want and have it aesthetically, visually, and even mechanically feel like we want to.

(A HUGE SIDENOTE: I’m not defending the current state of PVP and balance, nor am I saying that we don’t need a lot of changes to balance in order to make PVP fulfilling for everyone. But that doesnt mean the core concept of the game is bad or wrong and that this vengeance type of combat is the solution.)

Then there is a learning curve to gaining skill level. I have over 10k hours in the game and I’m still improving and learning, which is a fulfilling and satisfying feeling - I still need to work on the game. The moment your build clicks and feels right and fun, that moment is so much fun and rewarding.

This creates a super interesting way of combat, where every fight can be a a little story, a fight of styles and classes. Ideally, we want this to be balanced so a lot of different options feel viable.

The current form of vengeance has nothing of that. Our characters journey doesn’t matter and we simply play an avatar with some limited options and throw ourselves into big scale fights with no individual impact to the outcome. It’s just a matter of bringing the numbers. Your individual skill doesn't matter, because when you’re outnumbering people you’re just making these kills without putting in the effort, and vice versa you’re getting killed by people who just outnumber you.

Now that so many people have taken this test, which is designed to have such limited gameplay. It makes players say this form of combat is a positive outcome for the PVP experience in ESO ( Not talking about the people that are happy with the test and performance), makes me think that people just don't want to put in work and effort into character progression. Which, in turn, makes me wonder if these people should even play an MMORPG. ( I know this sounds harsh but it feels contradicting to what the game is) There are games out there where everyone starts out equal and you can just jump straight into PVP. Think about Mordhau, Chivalry, arena shooters even Mobas. Imo that’s all fun and fine, but is not part of an MMORPG. At best, maybe it could function as a standalone mode within the game. But the arguments people are giving around this vengeance test, it seems like they literally want this dumbed down and minimized version of PVP and character building so that they can enjoy their PVP.

In the short-term, this might sound good, people wanna dive into PVP, its not as scary to join PVP, and people can find their success relatively quick. Acces to PVP is easier than ever( IMO a wrong image of what rpg pvp is about, simular to how currently leveling your character in overland and delves does not make you ready for actual endgame pve content I see this dumbed down PVP version as an inaccurate way to prepare and present PVP to players)

In the long-term though, this removes actual replayability - unless people just enjoy running around the map and taking down keeps (on day two it already started happening where people weren’t even PVPing anymore and were just PVDooring, and not even actively but just standing there and zerging down a bunch of guards to gain some AP).

Trust me I know the feeling, when I started cyrodiil pvp for the first time, capping keeps, shooting sieges, seeing masses of people, yes very epic, but in the long term that playstyle get stale and what kept pvp fresh was the progression and change to characters and classes and playstyles. Ive been in the honeymoon phase of sieging cyrodiil, and I understand if people still enjoy it after a long time. But I can predict for most players it will fall flat at a point, Im speaking of experience of having seen this happen to hundreds and hundreds of friends and guildies in their pvp journey.

So to all the people that are preaching this is the way forward, does this look like a realistic form of gameplay you wanna get into to a long period of time?


Also it does not motivate a player to play any other aspect of the game ( overland,dungeons,IA,Trials ) because nothing is needed to make a character powerfull, it gives no reason to be excited for new content, new items, or new options to pick from and grow your character.

Another long-term side effect to consider: monetisation. If this is the PVP mode people wanna see, or something close this vengeance form of combat, why would you need ESO Plus? Why would you need the DLCs? Why would you use any of the systems in the game? And why would you ever spend money on ESO?

I know we all don't like alot of the monetisation of studios we see today and especially not the predatory methods, the FOMO, the RNG rewards for IRL money etc. I don't like any of that. But the game still needs income and if masses flock towards this new gameplay loop, isn't that extremely counter-intuitive for the studio as a form to gain money?

Another long-term effect will be on alt characters. A lot of people like to make a lot of alts to create new roleplay experiences, new stories, and new playstyles. This all negates that. You don’t even need to progress anything, because you can just step in with a low lvl and have the same power as someone who put time and effort into building their character. Is this MMORPG like?

A final long-term effect that worries me. Once people have felt the instant gratification, why would these same people ever wanna put in time and effort in the game for other game modes? Why don't we make ESO housing the same, give everyone limited options ( a couple walls, doors, tables, chairs etc) - but we are all equal so everyone can make the same quality of house? Sounds terrible right? Would this create a feeling of why would people want this for the housing community? Don't we like putting in that effort into housing to feel fulfilment when your creation is done? That same feeling of fulfilment should be your character on the battlefield - your whole journey matters. And again, I repeat, I’m not defending the state of PVP outside the test. It is full of flaws and promotes certain playstyles to much - but it remains eons beyond this limited version that so many seem to be in favour of.

Or imagine this is being done to PVE, Taking away all your options and toys and all have the same powerlevel going and just have no connection to your character progression. Would this feel good?

To conclude, I wanna reconfirm that I’m not against the test. What I am against, is the narrative being adopted that the limited playstyle necessitated by this test is somehow a preferable way to PVP.

So by all means, continue the test. As I said above, I think we can learn things like:

•Has sustain been too easy to come by?
•Did we lose too much class identity?
•Do people wanna feel part of something big?
•Do newer players have too big a bridge to gap?
•Could the game provide better education on how to improve?
•Do certain playstyles become too powerful and obnoxious to fight against?

These are examples of things ZoS could really learn from to improve the experience for everyone. But please people, lets not sacrifice the core concepts of an MMORPG for the sake of a quick fix to your dopamine.

I love ESO, I love MMORPGs, I love the community, and I love how I can express myself creatively in ESO. Seeing the response to the vengeance test so far, Make me a bit anxious people wanna take that away from the game.

Much Love, KhamulESO