Can we talk about the fact that the current meta is killing the game PVP?

Fixed up!

Trejgon wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

^
Secondly, I'd argue the overall population is not as healthy as advertised. I was in queue for 47 minutes last night on a level 17 tank for a random dungeon with 1 DPS party member.

You mean to tell me that there is no one running dungeons sub 50 during prime time hours who need a tank?

ya....not buying it.

Last time I checked there was a known issue with RND MM that it would get stuck if you queue in a group with a tank or healer as the group leader. I am not aware of ZOS ever fixing that one.

Additionally some time ago there was also an issue with RND MM completely dying, and being unable to make any teams from anything else than full party, but I'd imagine if that was not yet fixed we'd see much much more complaints about that on forums and reddit, so I guess that particular issue was fixed?

How long has this bug been around? Seems a bit game breaking.

Kartalin wrote: »

Bringing soft caps back might help (diminishing returns when a stat reaches a certain value). Disconnecting healing from weapon/spell damage could also improve things.

I've suggested this in the past and got lampooned for it. It feels like they wanted to go that route as evidence by healing procs near universally scaling off stats instead of weapon damage, and as such it would just make sense to disconnect damage and healing from each other by making player heals function the same way.

IncultaWolf wrote: »

exoib wrote: »

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

Undeath in my opinion is the #1 cause of all these issues in pvp, free unique 30% mitigation with basically zero drawbacks, sustain is so easy to get and the fire damage taken isn't noticeable. It's literally a requirement on any competitive pvp build now to be a vampire stage 3. And people only have vamp for this one overtuned passive alone. So much for build diversity..

It's worth noting that the ease with which players can access Minor Resolve now through Resolving Vigor adds to the problem.

And of course, who can't get Minor Resolve without a major expenditure on a build and can't get Undeath at all? Werewolves.

Arcanasx wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

exoib wrote: »

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

Undeath in my opinion is the #1 cause of all these issues in pvp, free unique 30% mitigation with basically zero drawbacks, sustain is so easy to get and the fire damage taken isn't noticeable. It's literally a requirement on any competitive pvp build now to be a vampire stage 3. And people only have vamp for this one overtuned passive alone. So much for build diversity..

I'd rather have unmitigated Health Recovery, which Battle Spirit now cuts that in half.

This is one of the reasons why undeath is as strong as it is right now...investing into health recovery is inefficient as it gets cut in half for PvP.

Yeah I know, its inevitable as there aren't really any good alternatives. Just seems like even with undeath if you don't have a good dot heal behind you still fall flat on your face. Especially with all the insane amounts of damage being dealt out these days in PvP.

Really what makes undeath stronger is heals + blocking but other than that undeath faces the same issue as other things like Pariah in that even when fully mitigated all they have to do is eliminate your remaining health. Its something but not as strong as people might think. But yes, it is a good alternative, but one that really needs to be leveraged in order to take most advantage over it.

Dmg Mitigation and Dmg Resistances still require healing behind them. Just seems like there is no real substitute for lack of health recovery.

El_Borracho wrote: »

Well, this is what you get when there are constant demands to nerf whatever is currently effective. Oh, the irony.

BlueRaven wrote: »

But also, PvP players, there are sooo many nerf threads now: tanks, nbs, dks, etc. it’s just hard to take any of them seriously.

Haha the agree button isn't strong enough. Just in the past few weeks, I've seen nerf arcanist generally, nerf arcanist beam, nerf nb generally, nerf nb cloak, nerf concealed weapon, nerf various arena weapons, nerf wardens generally, nerf polar wind, nerf way of the fire, nerf rele, nerf ww, nerf vampire undeath, nerf sustain generally, nerf sustain glyphs, nerf wretched vitality, nerf rush of agony, nerf engine guardian, nerf templar beam, nerf dk generally, nerf corrosive, nerf tanks, nerf rez... I'm sure there were more.

It's really hard to take any of it seriously. I guess if ZoS really did do all of these things, people might start playing necro again... so there would be that :P

They need to make a serious effort to balance pvp separately.

Vulkunne wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

exoib wrote: »

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

Undeath in my opinion is the #1 cause of all these issues in pvp, free unique 30% mitigation with basically zero drawbacks, sustain is so easy to get and the fire damage taken isn't noticeable. It's literally a requirement on any competitive pvp build now to be a vampire stage 3. And people only have vamp for this one overtuned passive alone. So much for build diversity..

I'd rather have unmitigated Health Recovery, which Battle Spirit now cuts that in half.

This is one of the reasons why undeath is as strong as it is right now...investing into health recovery is inefficient as it gets cut in half for PvP.

Yeah I know, its inevitable as there aren't really any good alternatives. Just seems like even with undeath if you don't have a good dot heal behind you still fall flat on your face. Especially with all the insane amounts of damage being dealt out these days in PvP.

Really what makes undeath stronger is heals + blocking but other than that undeath faces the same issue as other things like Pariah in that even when fully mitigated all they have to do is eliminate your remaining health. Its something but not as strong as people might think. But yes, it is a good alternative, but one that really needs to be leveraged in order to take most advantage over it.

Dmg Mitigation and Dmg Resistances still require healing behind them. Just seems like there is no real substitute for lack of health recovery.

Undeath stalls out fights that should have ended. Have you never run across someone that gets down to roughly 10% hp and just seems to stop taking damage? Spam an execute all you want, with minimal effort on the part of the undeath abuser they can completely avoid dying. Cutting incoming damage by up to 30% is significantly stronger than a small amount of health back every two seconds.

So first of all yes I have seen that. But I don't think its undeath alone that enables them to be that strong.

What I do know is even with undeath it seems like any damage taken adds up and so without healing you're still going to die. Maybe a little slower but with so much damage being thrown out there 30% to the masses is not going to accomplish alot.

With blocking or other things leveraging undeath, yeah it can be strong but that in and of itself with no healing to make up for the incoming damage you're still going to die quickly.

Who isn't healing in pvp?

The crux of the problem in the comparison is that Undeath requires no investment in your build aside from the skill points. It is effectively a free mitigation that can be tacked on to a full damage build.

Building for health recovery to get even close to what Undeath does for survivability requires significant expenditures into the health recovery stat which has the effect of reducing your damage AND heals via not having weapon damage or stats.

The two aren't even in the same ballpark in terms of impact on survivability despite apparently being on the same spectrum.

Panderbander wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

exoib wrote: »

it is what it is, I've done a post before on this and the "undeath" passive killing the essence of PvP and reason people don't participate

Undeath in my opinion is the #1 cause of all these issues in pvp, free unique 30% mitigation with basically zero drawbacks, sustain is so easy to get and the fire damage taken isn't noticeable. It's literally a requirement on any competitive pvp build now to be a vampire stage 3. And people only have vamp for this one overtuned passive alone. So much for build diversity..

I'd rather have unmitigated Health Recovery, which Battle Spirit now cuts that in half.

This is one of the reasons why undeath is as strong as it is right now...investing into health recovery is inefficient as it gets cut in half for PvP.

Yeah I know, its inevitable as there aren't really any good alternatives. Just seems like even with undeath if you don't have a good dot heal behind you still fall flat on your face. Especially with all the insane amounts of damage being dealt out these days in PvP.

Really what makes undeath stronger is heals + blocking but other than that undeath faces the same issue as other things like Pariah in that even when fully mitigated all they have to do is eliminate your remaining health. Its something but not as strong as people might think. But yes, it is a good alternative, but one that really needs to be leveraged in order to take most advantage over it.

Dmg Mitigation and Dmg Resistances still require healing behind them. Just seems like there is no real substitute for lack of health recovery.

Undeath stalls out fights that should have ended. Have you never run across someone that gets down to roughly 10% hp and just seems to stop taking damage? Spam an execute all you want, with minimal effort on the part of the undeath abuser they can completely avoid dying. Cutting incoming damage by up to 30% is significantly stronger than a small amount of health back every two seconds.

So first of all yes I have seen that. But I don't think its undeath alone that enables them to be that strong.

What I do know is even with undeath it seems like any damage taken adds up and so without healing you're still going to die. Maybe a little slower but with so much damage being thrown out there 30% to the masses is not going to accomplish alot.

With blocking or other things leveraging undeath, yeah it can be strong but that in and of itself with no healing to make up for the incoming damage you're still going to die quickly.

Who isn't healing in pvp?

The crux of the problem in the comparison is that Undeath requires no investment in your build aside from the skill points. It is effectively a free mitigation that can be tacked on to a full damage build.

Building for health recovery to get even close to what Undeath does for survivability requires significant expenditures into the health recovery stat which has the effect of reducing your damage AND heals via not having weapon damage or stats.

The two aren't even in the same ballpark in terms of impact on survivability despite apparently being on the same spectrum.

To be honest I have so many folks using Starvenom against me in BGs and sometimes Cyrodiil to the point where neither undeath or healing does me any good and I still die. Starvenom is some bad stuff lol.

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@DigiAngel don't wanna sound rude or anything but keep in mind the original ame used to be a PvP game and yes it is killing the game just as much as all the one bar heavy attack builds

no it wasnt. I am here since Beta and even then PvP was more of a novelty, and something you had to do to get Assault Level 7 for the Heal.

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@DigiAngel don't wanna sound rude or anything but keep in mind the original ame used to be a PvP game and yes it is killing the game just as much as all the one bar heavy attack builds

It was always a game with PvE and PvP. it was never just a PvP game. The back of the original box makes that very clear. Yes they promoted the PvP (just as they promoted the PvE), but it was never just a PvP game or they wouldn't have committed so much investment to the overland content, questing, and voice acting, nor would they have promoted the TES aspect of the game so heavily as the TES titles were of course entirely PvE-based.

I accept of course that ZOS have scaled back their support for PvP, but that's largely a consequence of performance issues (which mainly arose from the need to move data storage from client-side to server-side to counter the prolific cheating in the early days) and the imbalance of population numbers between the two playstyles.

If I was an outside observer, I'd say that the fact that people are both complaining about overly tanky people with passive mitigation and complaining about people who deal an unreasonable amount of damage with proc sets means that there is some counter to the other playstyle, and thus means the game is balanced.

However, I'm not an outside observer. Although I recognize that people complain about gameplay that isn't fun, I think it's important to stress why such gameplay isn't fun. It comes down to lack of build diversity — while not every set should be meta, the gap between the meta and the ordinary build is too big for skill alone to help you win an encounter.

Half of the combat skill comes from planning out a build before engaging in combat. The other half comes from actually fighting. However, it feels as if the overwhelming amount of the benefit comes from the build that's being planned, and not the skill of combat itself.


If there was some way to put more emphasis on the skill of engaging in combat (such as knowing when to set your enemy Off Balance, when to interrupt, when to roll dodge, etcetera) rather than the planning of the build (the skills, passives, sets, Champion Points, etcetera) then this game would feel more fair, because it'd be less about something that's not immediately controllable on the battlefield (your build) and more about your skill level (the actions you take). At least then you could adapt and feel as if you're getting better.

The biggest problem is the health one along with the ease of getting high resistances and crit resist. Damage dealers in Cyrodiil used to never have over 30k health. Now 30k has become the new bare minimum.

Something needs to be done to the way damage is calculated so that if you’re running health sets and resistance sets and have over 40k health your damage and healing should be trash.

They need to change all of the heals that scale based on maxed health. Tanks don’t need to be completely self sustaining. That’s what the healer is there for.