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Heavy Attack Build sets(?)

ACamaroGuy
ACamaroGuy
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Sergeant's Mail gives a total of 2,520 extra damage for your heavy attacks. That's 630x4=2.520, I get that. Why Storm Master over Arms of Relequen's? Storm Master gives you a flat 1,520 extra damage to your light/heavy attacks. Relequen's gives 3,110 physical damage over 10 stacks using light/heavy attacks. I get the heavy attack itself is not giving you the high number but using a heavy attack with Relequen will do more damage overall. Am I missing something?
Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 30, 2022 5:53PM
For the Empire
  • Hapexamendios
    Hapexamendios
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    Haven't done the math, but my guess is with a heavy attack build Relequen is not going to be optimal as the stacks only last for 5 seconds. You can probably get 2-3 stacks before one runs out. That may male the Storm Master's flat damage may be better.
  • gariondavey
    gariondavey
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    Lightning heavy attack is 2x light attack ticks + 1 final tick which isn't a light attack
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • mocap
    mocap
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    Relequen is meh in general on moving targets, or when your tank first time see destro ult and start push away the boss from it or other kekw situations.
  • Dr_Con
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    Relequens stacks refresh every time a HA/LA is done. Contrary to what another poster stated (which is misleading in how they stated it, in my opinion), a lightning HA gives 3 stacks of relequens. Relequens cannot crit, while the damage from the SM & SM build can crit. The damage it does is build-dependant. Relequens does not factor in your stam/magicka into its damage like abilities do, it cares only about weapon/spell damage. Be careful of following out-of-game tooltips as they don't factor in your character's stats- I'm looking right now and my relequens is doing this much on a non-optimized build per second at max stacks:
    2sbicqvbmh5n.png
    (it goes even higher on many other builds, but remember this is only like 5-6k DPS of what many would try to push to be 100k and above, so abilities, synergies, and what your group comp turns out to be are KEY to pushing higher numbers)

    With a HA build you are missing out on a full GCD which means you miss using an ability per each HA, while you can use abilities between HAs normally. it's a point to note this because by using HAs you are getting an insane amount of resources back, if you are not utilizing these resources between HAs your gain is negated

    by using Sergeant's Mail you are locking yourself into using HA sets and HAs as your major damage source. You are also locking yourself into one proc every 2 GCD as opposed to one proc per GCD. This is probably a big reason why Empower grants 180% extra damage as you are sacrificing an entire skill and other procs for something else.

    I do not recommend using lightning staves for boss encounters even on a HA build unless there's a compelling reason for cleave damage to be used, you are sacrificing so much of your damage just to do some AOE that you are better off running inferno staff.

    The most compelling argument against Relequens in non dummy HA build parsing scenarios- It will take you a full 20 seconds to get to max stacks on Relequens with an inferno staff HA build, while it would take around 6-7 seconds on a lightning staff build (Again, it goes against my recommendations to routinely recommend lightning staves, but with a whopping 20 seconds to reach max stacks in certain fights you will likely be forced to swap targets and lose all your stacks- hurting your group DPS overall). You can proc Storm Masters much earlier in most fights and have the damage swap to multiple targets on a Storm Masters/Sergeant's build- whose procs both buff you, as opposed to needing to be inflicted on your target (with a Relequens build), so pick your poison.

    Another factor to consider is that if your crit chance is poor (you don't expect at least 1 of your HAs to crit per 10 seconds, so realistically your crit chance needs to be over 20% per the in-game tooltip, assuming you are landing 5 HAs per 10 seconds), you might want to consider not using Storm Masters as that is the proc requirement, though if your crit chance is this poor I think your build has other issues starting with the traits your gear has.

    In addition to all this information, a source of minor slayer would be nice to include. Relequens does indeed provide this 5% boost in damage to NPC targets, but if you are willing to go Light Armor consider looking at Infalliable Aether, especially if you have no source of minor vulnerability (note- things that apply Concussed status, like Elemental Susceptability applies every 6 seconds for 4 seconds, as well as occasional procs from lightning staves), though this set might just be considered instead of Sergeant's Mail at that point as it provides all the stat bonuses of Relequens- certainly consider it for veteran solo content (arenas, mostly) as it is a more versatile HA set providing 10% damage boost overall in PvE to HAs in the absence of minor vulnerability and minor slayer.

    In the absence of a reliable source of Empower or a good arena backbar (build-dependent), consider oakensoul, which will also buff your PvE dps considerably and skips over many pre-buffs and slotted passives you might need to have to reach optimal damage output. This also covers your minor slayer source- taking pressure off of Relequens/IA, while covering your empower source and adding minor berserk as a damage source for your build. Minor berserk may or may not be covered by your healer already, but for solo content it's a harder buff to come by, but the need to remind for a lot of pre-buffing for empower, your 20% damage buffs, and your crit buffs can be covered by the use of this ring. With all your bases covered, your DPS relies on crit damage increasing builds provided by your group members as well as any temporary/ancillary buffs provided by certain sets others may be running (MK, war machine/rojo, spc, yoln, TT, encratis, EC, etc) and abilities they may be using (pierce armor, necro ult, warhorn, etc)

    TLDR: the sets to provide optimal outcomes entirely rely on the type of content you want to run, and the playstyle you have. If your group wants you to stick with the main boss and only the main boss, then a Relequens build might suit you. If you are going to be asked to change targets, then storm master may help. Sergeant's Mail pigeonholes you into using a HA build and prevents you from more versatile alternatives that don't always require you to use HA to benefit from what the set has to offer like Infalliable Aether, which has minor slayer and three different 5 piece bonuses as well as all the 1-4 bonuses on the gear being the same as normal rele, and a little better than perfected rele as a whole (except for the proc, of course). There's no one size fits all build, you need to know your group and yourself very well, but allowing for some flexibility can be more beneficial to your group overall.
    Edited by Dr_Con on December 30, 2022 10:42AM
  • ACamaroGuy
    ACamaroGuy
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    Dr_Con wrote: »
    Relequens stacks refresh every time a HA/LA is done. Contrary to what another poster stated (which is misleading in how they stated it, in my opinion), a lightning HA gives 3 stacks of relequens. Relequens cannot crit, while the damage from the SM & SM build can crit. The damage it does is build-dependant. Relequens does not factor in your stam/magicka into its damage like abilities do, it cares only about weapon/spell damage. Be careful of following out-of-game tooltips as they don't factor in your character's stats- I'm looking right now and my relequens is doing this much on a non-optimized build per second at max stacks:
    2sbicqvbmh5n.png
    (it goes even higher on many other builds, but remember this is only like 5-6k DPS of what many would try to push to be 100k and above, so abilities, synergies, and what your group comp turns out to be are KEY to pushing higher numbers)

    With a HA build you are missing out on a full GCD which means you miss using an ability per each HA, while you can use abilities between HAs normally. it's a point to note this because by using HAs you are getting an insane amount of resources back, if you are not utilizing these resources between HAs your gain is negated

    by using Sergeant's Mail you are locking yourself into using HA sets and HAs as your major damage source. You are also locking yourself into one proc every 2 GCD as opposed to one proc per GCD. This is probably a big reason why Empower grants 180% extra damage as you are sacrificing an entire skill and other procs for something else.

    I do not recommend using lightning staves for boss encounters even on a HA build unless there's a compelling reason for cleave damage to be used, you are sacrificing so much of your damage just to do some AOE that you are better off running inferno staff.

    The most compelling argument against Relequens in non dummy HA build parsing scenarios- It will take you a full 20 seconds to get to max stacks on Relequens with an inferno staff HA build, while it would take around 6-7 seconds on a lightning staff build (Again, it goes against my recommendations to routinely recommend lightning staves, but with a whopping 20 seconds to reach max stacks in certain fights you will likely be forced to swap targets and lose all your stacks- hurting your group DPS overall). You can proc Storm Masters much earlier in most fights and have the damage swap to multiple targets on a Storm Masters/Sergeant's build- whose procs both buff you, as opposed to needing to be inflicted on your target (with a Relequens build), so pick your poison.

    Another factor to consider is that if your crit chance is poor (you don't expect at least 1 of your HAs to crit per 10 seconds, so realistically your crit chance needs to be over 20% per the in-game tooltip, assuming you are landing 5 HAs per 10 seconds), you might want to consider not using Storm Masters as that is the proc requirement, though if your crit chance is this poor I think your build has other issues starting with the traits your gear has.

    In addition to all this information, a source of minor slayer would be nice to include. Relequens does indeed provide this 5% boost in damage to NPC targets, but if you are willing to go Light Armor consider looking at Infalliable Aether, especially if you have no source of minor vulnerability (note- things that apply Concussed status, like Elemental Susceptability applies every 6 seconds for 4 seconds, as well as occasional procs from lightning staves), though this set might just be considered instead of Sergeant's Mail at that point as it provides all the stat bonuses of Relequens- certainly consider it for veteran solo content (arenas, mostly) as it is a more versatile HA set providing 10% damage boost overall in PvE to HAs in the absence of minor vulnerability and minor slayer.

    In the absence of a reliable source of Empower or a good arena backbar (build-dependent), consider oakensoul, which will also buff your PvE dps considerably and skips over many pre-buffs and slotted passives you might need to have to reach optimal damage output. This also covers your minor slayer source- taking pressure off of Relequens/IA, while covering your empower source and adding minor berserk as a damage source for your build. Minor berserk may or may not be covered by your healer already, but for solo content it's a harder buff to come by, but the need to remind for a lot of pre-buffing for empower, your 20% damage buffs, and your crit buffs can be covered by the use of this ring. With all your bases covered, your DPS relies on crit damage increasing builds provided by your group members as well as any temporary/ancillary buffs provided by certain sets others may be running (MK, war machine/rojo, spc, yoln, TT, encratis, EC, etc) and abilities they may be using (pierce armor, necro ult, warhorn, etc)

    TLDR: the sets to provide optimal outcomes entirely rely on the type of content you want to run, and the playstyle you have. If your group wants you to stick with the main boss and only the main boss, then a Relequens build might suit you. If you are going to be asked to change targets, then storm master may help. Sergeant's Mail pigeonholes you into using a HA build and prevents you from more versatile alternatives that don't always require you to use HA to benefit from what the set has to offer like Infalliable Aether, which has minor slayer and three different 5 piece bonuses as well as all the 1-4 bonuses on the gear being the same as normal rele, and a little better than perfected rele as a whole (except for the proc, of course). There's no one size fits all build, you need to know your group and yourself very well, but allowing for some flexibility can be more beneficial to your group overall.

    Thank you so much for the information and your time.
    For the Empire
  • ZOS_Icy
    ZOS_Icy
    mod
    Greetings,

    This thread has been moved to the Combat & Character Mechanics section, as it is better suited there.

    Thank you for your understanding.
    Staff Post
  • Zodiarkslayer
    Zodiarkslayer
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    For pure heavy attack builds, there is no better way than Oakensoul Lightning Staff with SM/SM. Whatever others say.

    Lightning Staff looses the least damage compared to light attack weaving builds. Frost Staff and even Inferno Staff in single target situations fall behind the two (!) additional light attack damage procs that a Lightning Staff heavy attack gets over the other two destro staffs.
    Damage wise Restoration Staff comes in second place, actually. But it's a <female dog> to weave.
    In theory Lightning Staff is even higher LA damage than when light attack weaving in a regular build, because the LAs profit from SM/SM procs. After all you get two LA damage in two GCs plus a bonus damage proc at the end.


    What most people do not know, is that heavy attack weaving is possible. It's counterintuitive at first, but once you figure it out, you can push yourself over 90k on a trial dummy.
    The cool thing is, that it looses not as much DPS in content, compared to normal LA weaving DPS builds. You can easily stay over 70k. 80k with practise and a cool head.

    The simplicity is the main selling point though, not the raw power. Its a one size fits all kind of a build.

    If you want to progress in a Trials group, using a heavy attack build is questionable anyways. All raid leads that I know have "heavy" opinions about heavy attack builds.
    But for everything else its good and most of all reliable under pressure.
    Edited by Zodiarkslayer on January 3, 2023 7:40AM
    read, think and write.In that order.
  • jerj6925
    jerj6925
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    What is sm\sm ?
  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
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    jerj6925 wrote: »
    What is sm\sm ?

    Sergeant's Mail / Storm Master
  • Jammet
    Jammet
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    Most of my friends picked up this kind of build over the last few days, and I'm astounded, really, that it, as they describe it, basically is a one-button super high damage build. Sometimes, perhaps the simplest things, are those that turn out to be the most effective. Myself, I'm not performing nearly in that range of damage even if I put effort into it, with a regular build, but ... I just enjoy having two bars, and I enjoy having a rotation. I hope all of these can stay relevant in the future so everyone has something that matches their preferences.
  • Jammet
    Jammet
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    Not to make it weirder, but observing almost everybody around me dishing out insane damages, with heavy attack one-bar builds, without a rotation at all, and having around 27k health ontop of all of this, I am unsure if this is something I should adapt as well, or not. I *enjoy* having two bars, but it's awkward to put all this work into a rotation and have less to show for it. ^^'
  • goatlyonesub17_ESO
    goatlyonesub17_ESO
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    My standard public dungeon XP+gold farming set is 5 pieces New Moon Acolyte, 5 pieces Aetheral Ascension, 1 Molag Kena (shoulder), and that speed buff ring that you get from antiquities. All heavy with impenetrable trait. All enchanted with stamina buff, except the speedy ring.

    The 3 BIG armor items and the weapons (sharp trait for melee, infused for bow) are NMA. Three of the little armor items, excluding the shoulder, the necklace and one ring are AA set. This gives a lot of defense versus weapon attacks and decent defense vs magic - and most of the Crimson Cove (Malabal Tor) enemies are sword/dagger users. It also nicely boosts my weapon damage.

    My nightblade character also uses an alternate set that differs with the aforehereindescribed standard set by substituting Swamp Raider for New Moon Acolyte. SR gives a 600 damage boost to poison/disease attacks, such as the nightblade's Power Extraction.

    However, since SR is a medium set found overland in Shadowfen and isn't craftable, only one minor bit of worn armor is SR (the hand or waist piece). The other SR bits are necklace, 1 ring, and weapons. The Aetheral Ascension bits are the wearable armor excluding shoulder, which is Molag Kena, and either hand or waist, whichever is SR. Again, all worn armor has the impenetrable trait and the stamina enchantment, and all non-SR pieces are heavy armor.
    Edited by goatlyonesub17_ESO on January 13, 2023 9:57PM
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  • Snamyap
    Snamyap
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    My standard public dungeon XP+gold farming set is 5 pieces New Moon Acolyte, 5 pieces Aetheral Ascension, 1 Molag Kena (shoulder), and that speed buff ring that you get from antiquities. All heavy with impenetrable trait. All enchanted with stamina buff, except the speedy ring.

    The 3 BIG armor items and the weapons (sharp trait for melee, infused for bow) are NMA. Three of the little armor items, excluding the shoulder, the necklace and one ring are AA set. This gives a lot of defense versus weapon attacks and decent defense vs magic - and most of the Crimson Cove (Malabal Tor) enemies are sword/dagger users. It also nicely boosts my weapon damage.

    My nightblade character also uses an alternate set that differs with the aforehereindescribed standard set by substituting Swamp Raider for New Moon Acolyte. SR gives a 600 damage boost to poison/disease attacks, such as the nightblade's Power Extraction.

    However, since SR is a medium set found overland in Shadowfen and isn't craftable, only one minor bit of worn armor is SR (the hand or waist piece). The other SR bits are necklace, 1 ring, and weapons. The Aetheral Ascension bits are the wearable armor excluding shoulder, which is Molag Kena, and either hand or waist, whichever is SR. Again, all worn armor has the impenetrable trait and the stamina enchantment, and all non-SR pieces are heavy armor.

    First of all, this thread is about heavy attack sets, as in sets that boost the damage of heavy attacks. This is not about offensive heavy armor sets. Second, I don't know how far your progression is CP wise and stuff but you shouldn't be needing heavy armor to survive in a public dungeon. Full out dps and a maybe a self heal should suffice.
  • Araneae6537
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    Snamyap wrote: »
    My standard public dungeon XP+gold farming set is 5 pieces New Moon Acolyte, 5 pieces Aetheral Ascension, 1 Molag Kena (shoulder), and that speed buff ring that you get from antiquities. All heavy with impenetrable trait. All enchanted with stamina buff, except the speedy ring.

    The 3 BIG armor items and the weapons (sharp trait for melee, infused for bow) are NMA. Three of the little armor items, excluding the shoulder, the necklace and one ring are AA set. This gives a lot of defense versus weapon attacks and decent defense vs magic - and most of the Crimson Cove (Malabal Tor) enemies are sword/dagger users. It also nicely boosts my weapon damage.

    My nightblade character also uses an alternate set that differs with the aforehereindescribed standard set by substituting Swamp Raider for New Moon Acolyte. SR gives a 600 damage boost to poison/disease attacks, such as the nightblade's Power Extraction.

    However, since SR is a medium set found overland in Shadowfen and isn't craftable, only one minor bit of worn armor is SR (the hand or waist piece). The other SR bits are necklace, 1 ring, and weapons. The Aetheral Ascension bits are the wearable armor excluding shoulder, which is Molag Kena, and either hand or waist, whichever is SR. Again, all worn armor has the impenetrable trait and the stamina enchantment, and all non-SR pieces are heavy armor.

    First of all, this thread is about heavy attack sets, as in sets that boost the damage of heavy attacks. This is not about offensive heavy armor sets. Second, I don't know how far your progression is CP wise and stuff but you shouldn't be needing heavy armor to survive in a public dungeon. Full out dps and a maybe a self heal should suffice.

    And the impen trait is useless against NPCs — only other players can crit.
  • haelgaan
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    sergeants mail / storm master only on the trials dummy or in groups with pen sources. sergeants mail / noble duelist outperforms storm master in pen-limited cases where positioning for the 5th pc bonus is not a problem
  • haelgaan
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    Jammet wrote: »
    Not to make it weirder, but observing almost everybody around me dishing out insane damages, with heavy attack one-bar builds, without a rotation at all, and having around 27k health ontop of all of this, I am unsure if this is something I should adapt as well, or not. I *enjoy* having two bars, but it's awkward to put all this work into a rotation and have less to show for it. ^^'

    Oakensoul raised the floor. HA build with a lightning staff can perform relatively well for players not otherwise able to do >80k dps on a trials dummy.

    Two-bar builds still outshine Oakensoul builds by a good chunk, for those that are good at the LA weave and maintaining their rotation.

    Me, i can do >100k on a trials dummy if i want to, but i am liking the HA builds simply because why the hell would i want to work that hard. 120k DPS with 140 or so actions per minute is great for kids, but is masochistic for my joints. I'm far happier with 70-80k dps on an HA lightning staff build, and only 30-40 actions per minute. That's easily good enough for overland, norm dungeons/arenas/trials, most if not all vet dungeons and arenas, and even some vet trials.

    Edited by haelgaan on January 13, 2023 11:31PM
  • Araneae6537
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    haelgaan wrote: »
    sergeants mail / storm master only on the trials dummy or in groups with pen sources. sergeants mail / noble duelist outperforms storm master in pen-limited cases where positioning for the 5th pc bonus is not a problem

    What about storm master / noble duelist? But how often is pen limited, at least in a PVE group? I thought everyone was wearing medium armor for maximum DPS now.
  • haelgaan
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    armor passives relevant to this - medium armor (eg storm master) boosts damage, light armor (eg noble duelist) boosts penetration. if you're in excess of the penetration needed for your content, then medium armor is good. if you are below the penetration needed, then light armor is better.

    everyone looks great on the trials dummy in part because you need virtually no penetration - meaning medium sets have the advantage. In real content, getting Penetration right comes before Damage buffs (or Crit Chance, IMO).

    9.1k penetration is good for overland, 18.2k penetration for group/trial content (and a range between those for solo arenas, depending on the boss)

    Your group can bring a lot - typical group tank can bring in 9k penetration with Major and Minor Breach, plus another 2k with Crusher - leaving 7k to come from elsewhere. Wearing light armor can give 4.7k, assuming 5 pcs., or 5.7k if that Slimecraw is also light - getting you pretty close to that 7k needed...

    This is a good resource to help explain pen sources
    https://skinnycheeks.gg/crit-damage-and-penetration


    Edited by haelgaan on January 13, 2023 11:50PM
  • haelgaan
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    What about storm master / noble duelist? But how often is pen limited, at least in a PVE group? I thought everyone was wearing medium armor for maximum DPS now.

    Empower boosts based on the HA damage, and the Sergeant's boost to damage is juicer than the other sets... I would guess the 5pc bonus from Sergeant outweighs the lost buff from the one heavy armor pc you have to wear, meaning it would outperform a storm/noble combo, but tbh i haven't tested and my brain doesn't want to do that math on a Friday night.

    plus the HP boost from that one heavy piece is honestly kinda nice for survivability...
  • Araneae6537
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    @haelgaan Thank you so much for all the info and that link is super helpful to see when and how much pen and crit one should build for! :)
    Edited by Araneae6537 on January 20, 2023 7:21PM
  • JJMaxx1980
    JJMaxx1980
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    So if you are doing content in a trial, where you don’t need to worry about pen at all, wear SM/SM with 1 pc. Light Slime with Thief Mundus. All ya need. That’s also the parse setup for blasting that 100k+.

    If you’re in a dungeon setup with a tank the is applying minor/major breach and crusher, that’s 11,000 right there. You need to bring another 7.2k. You have 700 from CP, 929 for each light armor piece so you have options. I’m not a fan of Noble Duelist because I want to be able to attack from range whenever I can. I prefer Sergeants/Grave Inevitability with a Medium Slime. Those 6 light armor pieces give you 17.3k pen, only 1.8% damage missing from the maximum. Keep thief and you’re good to go. This also frees up the support to use other ultimates besides warhorn.

    If you are solo you need to do everything. My setup is SM/GI Medium Slime, Lover Mundus with a Sharpened Lightning Staff. You will also need to run Ele Sus or Caltrops for Major Breach but that will get you to pen cap.
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