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Vet Overland Perposal

CP5
CP5
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Yes, this topic has been beaten to death. I stayed away from the subject for some time, but decided to at least leave this outline here describing what I would like to see as a "Vet overland" or a "challenging overland." Please understand that this is simply a perspective that myself and others share, and is intended to be an option. Not forced onto others, not an attempt to hijack the in game market (since that was a point that was brought up before). Just an honest idea from someone who has been with the game for a while and used to enjoy the questing experience, but no longer does.

First are the issues' people like me currently have with overland and questing content.
  • Enemies intentionally using abilities that waste their own time or are counterproductive to the fight. This is things like tank npcs leaping out of fights to leave their allies to die, or conjurer mobs summoning literal bubbles that do so little I still don't know their purpose. Many enemy types have abilities like these that take forever to go off and result in nothing if they do, fireworks to make the fight seem more intense without contributing to the fight.
  • Enemies blending together. Having jumped around several other games lately, and having played games before ESO, it is amazing how little the type of enemy you're fighting matters. An npc dual wielding daggers vs a npc in heavy armor with a sword and shield both fight the same, same hp, same armor, same damage output, with the main factor between the two being which one will pick the 'waste their own time' ability first in a fight.

    This makes almost any fight feel exactly the same, and to any player who understands that using an ability that hits multiple targets at once for its full damage, (carve, arrow spray, impulse, exc.) you can kill any group of 3 mobs no matter the composition without even recognizing who you fought. It would make the fights forgettable, but they would have to be remembered first to be forgotten, and they aren't worth that.
  • Held punches. In the tutorial you are forced to do several things, blocking heavy attacks, bashing to interrupt, cc breaking. Add in something like moving out of red aoe's and these make the core gameplay tools all players have access to. Now, for vet content these skills are used often, more so in pvp, but in overland when do these matter? What mobs aside from world bosses hit hard enough to warrant a block? Which enemies channel spells dangerous enough to be worth your time to interrupt? Which aoe attacks are even big enough for you to find yourself caught in if you actively move during a fight?

    Without engaging these core gameplay tools, overland fails to teach players how to use them and fails to engage players who are already used to content that demands this level of interaction. ESO is a fun game to play, but when the standard fights don't even try to ask anything of you in these areas, I could get a similar or better experience elsewhere.
  • Forgettable bosses. With the One Tamriel update, every zone in the game was brought onto the same level. This is great, since before with zone's being tiered to level ranges if you out-leveled a zone you enjoyed then you had to leave to keep leveling, but not too fast else you enter a zone above your level and hit the artificial difficulty of enemies dodging attacks. The draw back is every zone could be someone's first zone.

    But after clearing their first, or second, or third zone, amassing many skills and decent gear, many players would expect the challenges they face to become more difficult to match their expanding skills. Here your only option is to do group content, solo group content, or do solo arena's. Every zone's story is delivered as if to a new player each time, leaving those who already know what kind of path the plot will take with nothing, since the fights don't engage the player beyond 'deal damage and maybe heal some.'

Now, there is nothing wrong with ESO's current overland. The game goes strong because a large enough part of the population enjoys it, and there is a reason why ZOS keeps putting it out as the largest bit of content. But for both long time players who are looking to do something beyond dungeons and trials, and for new players both looking for a challenge, or looking to practice their abilities outside of group content, overland offers nothing. Self gimping doesn't solve the issue of enemies refusing to fight back, it doesn't matter if the enemy type who does that whole 'backup then throw knife' routine takes 10s to kill or 10min, or if his knife one-shots if it lands or just snares. The simple fact is that enemy is a one note challenge that once overcome does nothing to engage a player despite what satisfaction you could gain by waiting next to him for the last second of his throw channel to approach only to interrupt him and leave him in the dirt. The goal of vet overland would be to let the overland content take advantage of all the game has to offer to provide more memorable and meaningful encounters.

Now to get this bit out of the way now, rewards. Many people against this idea point to "you just want better loot" as a counterargument. Some ideas have been thrown around by others with varying degrees of commitment that helped fuel these responses, so here is my offer. Slain enemies award more exp to the same ratio that they do between normal and veteran dungeons (compensating for the longer time to kill them, which isn't even enough as is since people would rather farm normal Blackrose for exp rather than vet), and loot dropped by slain enemies or world events would drop one tier higher (green to blue, blue to purple, purple stays purple), and despite the better quality loot people would still farm normal overland for gear because more chances at a drop are better than fewer unless you only need jewelry.

So, the issues are that fights are forgettable, generally seen as a waste of time and avoided, with enemies who don't stand out from one another and with bosses that leave entire year long stories falling flat for some players with anti-climatic endings. I know this would take time to implement, that time is resources, but if they did this then it could be implemented to every zone both present and future and would help people engage with content they wouldn't otherwise ever think to do. So here are some of the steps to do this.
  • Implement an option in some menu to enter "vet overland." On toggle, you would be sent to the nearest wayshrine in a vet instance of your current zone and would be free to turn it off at any time. Note that resource nodes, chest, quest, and the like, all wouldn't award more. Just enemies killed, since they are the only place where difficulty would be altered.
  • A slight buff to mobs health and damage, enough to make them survive long enough to act and hurt enough to be worth notice.
  • Remove worthless skills from enemies.

    Don't have tanks leave the fight and let their allies die, only to return a few seconds later to be killed off themselves. Instead, let them use guard more, and chains and roots, plus a healthy amount of armor to make people actually understand why armor pen is a thing.

    Take the literally worthless conjurer bubble and replace it with any other summon.

    Have necromancers raise multiple undead at once then use an aoe buff rather than a single target one. That would make any fight with multiple necromancers more interesting, more so if there are already some undead in the area.

    Have npc healers actually heal. Give the standard healers the same aoe heal some elite mobs have, like the ones in White Gold Tower. Let them use the single target heal without cooldown unless interrupted so they don't waste time trying to do pitiful damage.

    Let fire mages summon large fields of fire that deal more damage, encouraging players to work around the hazard rather than just being amused with the fire puddle placed on a random crate away from the fight.

    Give frost mage shields the same trait that the druid totems in Selene's web have, encouraging ranged mobs to stack behind it for protection. The AI doesn't need to be overhauled, just passive synergy would be enough.
  • The equally challenging part would be tweaking bosses. Wouldn't be nearly as impressive as what we see in dungeons, where the dev's have plenty of time to script out each fight, but they wouldn't need to. Finding interesting combinations of mobs plus a boss with an ability that plays to those mobs strengths, or finding a set of abilities that synergize in an interesting way, would be enough to at least make these encounters memorable. Like, say, a necromancer boss that endlessly summons mobs, so their necromancer minions can buff them. Or a frost mage boss summoning spikes of ice that also have the 'projectile shield' ability, providing their minions' protection. If mobs would fit a boss that doesn't have any to begin with, then a simple ability that triggers at the beginning of a fight to summon them in would be enough, no need to even modify the world space. Things of that nature.

Like I said, I understand this is a tired subject and many have already made their call on which side they are on. But please understand, it is fine if people enjoy the content as it is, it is fine if people would like to see it improved, this is how I would see the option added for those interested so that they may enjoy more of the game, and I leave it to the forums to do whatever with.
  • Lady_Galadhiel
    Lady_Galadhiel
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    Well I wonder if they will lock this thread as there are already 2 others like this on the front page.
    Total ESO playtime: 8325 hours
    ESO plus status: Cancelled
    ESO currently uninstalled.
  • Narvuntien
    Narvuntien
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    With new armoury we will be able to unselect CP right?
  • Blood_again
    Blood_again
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    CP5 wrote: »
    But after clearing their first, or second, or third zone, amassing many skills and decent gear, many players would expect the challenges they face to become more difficult to match their expanding skills. Here your only option is to do group content, solo group content, or do solo arena's.

    This "only option" includes:
    7 group delves
    24 base game group dungeons
    22 DLC group dungeons
    10 group trials (3 in base game)
    2 group arenas
    2 solo arenas

    Trials and group dungeons are available in normal, vet and vet+HM modes.
    You mentioned that soloing the group content is also available as a new layer for all 3 modes.
    I can add runs in a shortened group as a middle level challenge before soloing.

    You know what... it is a good solid option. I can't say it is "only" :)
  • Hallothiel
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    So, any idea on how much of the devs time & resources this would take?

    For something few would actually use?
  • Tandor
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    CP5 wrote: »
    But after clearing their first, or second, or third zone, amassing many skills and decent gear, many players would expect the challenges they face to become more difficult to match their expanding skills. Here your only option is to do group content, solo group content, or do solo arena's.

    This "only option" includes:
    7 group delves
    24 base game group dungeons
    22 DLC group dungeons
    10 group trials (3 in base game)
    2 group arenas
    2 solo arenas

    Trials and group dungeons are available in normal, vet and vet+HM modes.
    You mentioned that soloing the group content is also available as a new layer for all 3 modes.
    I can add runs in a shortened group as a middle level challenge before soloing.

    You know what... it is a good solid option. I can't say it is "only" :)

    That's a comprehensive list of PvE options, in addition to which you could have listed the various PvP options of course - not forgetting that many PvPers will tell you that PvP has always been the intended endgame in ESO. I don't agree with them, but we might at least expect those who complain about the overland content when they are also PvPers would acknowledge it.
  • Maya_Nur
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    Hallothiel wrote: »
    So, any idea on how much of the devs time & resources this would take?

    For something few would actually use?

    I can ask the same about fixing bugs and performance (If you remember, they took a year for this and now I can't just leave Alinor without waiting while textures are loading up :weary:). [snip]

    [edited for bashing]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 9, 2021 6:01PM
  • Hallothiel
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    I know this is me being extremely pedantic & fussy but PLEASE can the title of this thread be changed to the proper spelling of ‘proposal’ as it’s making me twitch every time I see it. Ta.
  • Maya_Nur
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    By the way, strongly agree with OP, most of the ideas are well thought out :heart:. I just want to add that it doesn't necessary for the whole location to be crazy hard. It should be progressive so the far you get through the quests, the harder opposition becomes.
  • Aelsioln
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    Maya_Nur wrote: »
    I can ask the same about fixing bugs and performance (If you remember, they took a year for this and now I can't just leave Alinor without waiting while textures are loading up :weary:). [snip]

    I think the point he was trying to make is why should people be assigned to work on a feature that only a small percentage of the playerbase will use when instead those same workers could be working on bugs or performance updates or even features that a larger percentage would use.

    If I'm a cashier at a store and there are long lines at each register my boss isn't going to suddenly pull me off a register to work on something like putting returns back on the shelves.

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on October 9, 2021 6:02PM
  • Hallothiel
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    I mean, when my boss asks me to do my job, I don't tell her: "Do you even know how long it will take?" No. I sit and do projects because I get money after that. :sunglasses:

    Maybe you deliver projects differently where you work but my experience of them is that time scales are rather important….
  • Iccotak
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    I agree with your point that it ultimately comes down to mechanics that is the center of people’s issue with Overland.

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    I think there’s a much simpler route to introduce interesting mechanics AND prevent the combat from getting stale or too monotonous.

    Make different types of Tougher NPCs & Mini-Bosses who use varying mechanics. Then make them more common throughout the zones for more encounters, Not too much but just enough to spice up the gameplay.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

    Examples:
    Really take a look at enemies with mechanics we see from Mini-Bosses in the story.
    Disappointing in the story but they’d better serve in general overland.
    Those guys are designed for solo play that anyone can do so just scatter them throughout the zone.

    The problem with “Tougher Enemies” today is that they’re too rare in exploration and only their health and damage is buffed.
    So they’re still boring because they don’t do anything different and don’t utilize ESO mechanics. They aren’t interesting and therefore not Fun.

    However, Mini-bosses like Nathari would be a great base for a “Master Necromancer” overland encounter.

    Video 17:47 mark
    Imagine exploring the wild and encountering a Master Necromancer who summons a Bone Colossus, does a wide ring area affect, and/or possibly transforms into a Lich or Bone Colossus.

    Other types of "Tough Enemies" they can do
    - Bandit Chiefs
    - Master Assassin
    - Pyromancer
    - Cryomancer
    - Briar Hearts (they exist but need adjustments)
    - Beast Master
    - Minotaur Champion
    - Werewolf Behemoth (or others)

    All of which are faster, attack & use abilities more frequently, have more abilities - some of which cover more ground.

    Have one of those with a mob every 1 out 5-8 encounters and that changes things up at a reasonable rate without being overdone.

    Also the wide variety of different types would help keep the random encounters more interesting.
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    That's my idea I'm writing out but that's my piece before this thread gets closed :#
    Edited by Iccotak on October 7, 2021 3:20PM
  • Tyrion87
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    Well I wonder if they will lock this thread as there are already 2 others like this on the front page.

    Good, the more such threads, the better. This way the devs will hopefully notice the scale of the problem with overland difficulty, acknowledge it and maybe do something about it. Because the frequency of these threads these days is alarming. And the problem is real because many people, myself included, have quit the game solely because of it. Personally, I can't understand why some people have problem with allowing others to adjust the difficulty somehow, if it was optional - so if you want an easy game, good, but do not take away other people's gaming pleasure.

    And since the OP came up with his own proposals, it deserved a separate thread. Everyone has the same right to voice their opinions and concerns.

    And btw, if you are so tired of the threads like this, you can ignore it and move on, and not post in each of them :)
  • pdblake
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    CP5 wrote: »
    Yes, this topic has been beaten to death.

    So you already know the answer then.

  • Maya_Nur
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    Hallothiel wrote: »
    I mean, when my boss asks me to do my job, I don't tell her: "Do you even know how long it will take?" No. I sit and do projects because I get money after that. :sunglasses:

    Maybe you deliver projects differently where you work but my experience of them is that time scales are rather important….

    Maybe :) But if you are the one who's right, then why say Elsweyr has much more content then Blackwood? Same time scales, same budget, but stunningly different results 🤔 If ZOS freed some people from the work on the BW chapter to do something else, than what is it – something else? I mean, I paid for Elsweyr collectors edition and for the BW one, but I get not an equal in terms of quantity and quality content. Why am I not alowed to ask for more? :(
  • Lady_Galadhiel
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    Tyrion87 wrote: »
    Well I wonder if they will lock this thread as there are already 2 others like this on the front page.

    Good, the more such threads, the better. This way the devs will hopefully notice the scale of the problem with overland difficulty, acknowledge it and maybe do something about it. Because the frequency of these threads these days is alarming. And the problem is real because many people, myself included, have quit the game solely because of it. Personally, I can't understand why some people have problem with allowing others to adjust the difficulty somehow, if it was optional - so if you want an easy game, good, but do not take away other people's gaming pleasure.

    And since the OP came up with his own proposals, it deserved a separate thread. Everyone has the same right to voice their opinions and concerns.

    And btw, if you are so tired of the threads like this, you can ignore it and move on, and not post in each of them :)

    I am free to post wherever I want same as everyone and yes,people get tired of seeing the same topic over and over with different titles,how difficult is it to stick to one or 2 threads about it on the front page instead of opening 5 basically always saying the same? Getting devs attention? If they said it wont happen anytime soon then it wont happen anytime soon,no matter how many discussions will be opened.
    There is other stuff what people have been asking for,for years and they did take them 3 to 4 years before they get implemented.No need ot posting this ALL the time,the devs did notice it and if a difficulty slider will get implemented in the future it will take at least 2 years from now if not more.
    Total ESO playtime: 8325 hours
    ESO plus status: Cancelled
    ESO currently uninstalled.
  • trackdemon5512
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    ALL OVERLAND CONTENT IS ALREADY SET TO CP160.

    The enemies themselves are set to CP160. There is no going above as there is no CP161 or higher programmed into this game. It’s not set to go lower.

    So asking for Vet Overland makes no sense because it has all be “Vet Overland” since One Tamriel. You’re just disappointed with mechanics.
  • Iccotak
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    Hallothiel wrote: »
    I know this is me being extremely pedantic & fussy but PLEASE can the title of this thread be changed to the proper spelling of ‘proposal’ as it’s making me twitch every time I see it. Ta.

    Rian Raynuldz and Saundrah Bolluck in "The Perposal" :D
  • Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo
    Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo
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    Iccotak wrote: »
    Hallothiel wrote: »
    I know this is me being extremely pedantic & fussy but PLEASE can the title of this thread be changed to the proper spelling of ‘proposal’ as it’s making me twitch every time I see it. Ta.

    Rian Raynuldz and Saundrah Bolluck in "The Perposal" :D

    I was about to write to OP about the typo in the header, but your joke has done it in style :)

    'Proposal' is indeed the correct word. No problem, just us native English speakers being..well...English.

    On another hand, I agree with OP; Perhaps mechanics (combat styles) of the mobs would be a better thing to approach than just lifting up the difficulty via damage. Good point, OP and I think your idea deserves a geunine tag @ZOS_Kevin for a follow up :)
    Edited by Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo on October 7, 2021 5:03PM
  • CaffeinatedMayhem
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    Did everyone ignore Rich saying "We could do that, but it would be developer time spent rehashing old content and I'd rather make new stuff?" I mean, and all the players we'd lose because they don't want a harder overland.....
  • Xebov
    Xebov
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    CP5 wrote: »
    Implement an option in some menu to enter "vet overland." On toggle, you would be sent to the nearest wayshrine in a vet instance of your current zone and would be free to turn it off at any time. Note that resource nodes, chest, quest, and the like, all wouldn't award more. Just enemies killed, since they are the only place where difficulty would be altered.

    Which means that we would use up twice the amount of server resources because we have to keep open 2 copies of each zone.
    CP5 wrote: »
    A slight buff to mobs health and damage, enough to make them survive long enough to act and hurt enough to be worth notice.

    I realy would like to see how you want to manage to get the 20k DPS DDs and the 50k+ DPS DDs into this difficulty together. You will end up with scenarios where its still to easy for the top end players or you will end up with players stuck inbetween with one to easy and one to hard or worst case both.
    CP5 wrote: »
    Don't have tanks leave the fight and let their allies die, only to return a few seconds later to be killed off themselves. Instead, let them use guard more, and chains and roots, plus a healthy amount of armor to make people actually understand why armor pen is a thing.

    Take the literally worthless conjurer bubble and replace it with any other summon.

    Have necromancers raise multiple undead at once then use an aoe buff rather than a single target one. That would make any fight with multiple necromancers more interesting, more so if there are already some undead in the area.

    Have npc healers actually heal. Give the standard healers the same aoe heal some elite mobs have, like the ones in White Gold Tower. Let them use the single target heal without cooldown unless interrupted so they don't waste time trying to do pitiful damage.

    Let fire mages summon large fields of fire that deal more damage, encouraging players to work around the hazard rather than just being amused with the fire puddle placed on a random crate away from the fight.

    Give frost mage shields the same trait that the druid totems in Selene's web have, encouraging ranged mobs to stack behind it for protection. The AI doesn't need to be overhauled, just passive synergy would be enough.

    So you want to use up even more resources to implement some semi inteligent NPCs that are facerolled anyways by high tier DPS?
    CP5 wrote: »
    The equally challenging part would be tweaking bosses. Wouldn't be nearly as impressive as what we see in dungeons, where the dev's have plenty of time to script out each fight, but they wouldn't need to. Finding interesting combinations of mobs plus a boss with an ability that plays to those mobs strengths, or finding a set of abilities that synergize in an interesting way, would be enough to at least make these encounters memorable. Like, say, a necromancer boss that endlessly summons mobs, so their necromancer minions can buff them. Or a frost mage boss summoning spikes of ice that also have the 'projectile shield' ability, providing their minions' protection. If mobs would fit a boss that doesn't have any to begin with, then a simple ability that triggers at the beginning of a fight to summon them in would be enough, no need to even modify the world space. Things of that nature.

    Which would more or less put you in need of having tanks and healers present, except that they have no reason to visit the DD wonderland you just created.
  • ZOS_Ragnar
    ZOS_Ragnar
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    We have closed this thread as there is already an existing thread discussing this topic found here. Please feel free to add your thoughts and ideas to that thread.
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