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Mistform changes means RIP console VRG HM

  • Chriagon
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    If you guys think Mistform is a problem somehow, fine, but you basically completely remove a Vampire skill for PVE players here. Can't you at least come up with an alternative? Something fun maybe?? As if Vampires weren't boring enough already.

  • karekiz
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    Well I mean.

    Playerbase has asked for a seperate PvE/PvP system for awhile. This is kinda just that.
  • Vevvev
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    karekiz wrote: »
    Well I mean.

    Playerbase has asked for a seperate PvE/PvP system for awhile. This is kinda just that.

    Yes and no.

    This is completely removing an ability instead of the what the player base has been asking for and that's balancing them separately.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Vevvev
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    Just realized something else. If this change goes live Meditate from the Psijic Order skill line with it's unique 30% damage mitigation while channeling would be the new "go to". Can even be healed while it's running!
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • p00tx
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    CyberOnEso wrote: »
    You know they also nerfed the healing and shield reduction of the curse from Bahsei.

    That set is useless, you cannot benefit from a barley noticeable 15% increase in spell damage when you have no magic left.

    This is currently one of the most powerful endgame PvE sets available...
    PC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero
  • Jodynn
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    p00tx wrote: »
    CyberOnEso wrote: »
    You know they also nerfed the healing and shield reduction of the curse from Bahsei.

    That set is useless, you cannot benefit from a barley noticeable 15% increase in spell damage when you have no magic left.

    This is currently one of the most powerful endgame PvE sets available...

    The most powerful.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Michaelkeir
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    Chriagon wrote: »
    If you guys think Mistform is a problem somehow, fine, but you basically completely remove a Vampire skill for PVE players here. Can't you at least come up with an alternative? Something fun maybe?? As if Vampires weren't boring enough already.

    I second this thought. With this morphs current change the use in PvE has been voided. So how about either just removing the skill and replace it with another more requested skill. Or just fix the issue in Rockgrove that’s causing it to be exploited. Because honestly I don’t like having a skill I use on my vamp characters nerfed because of a few trial groups antics. Vampire skills are already limited as is, let’s not take a skill away from an already limited subclass.
  • CaffeinatedMayhem
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    Rex-Umbra wrote: »
    Not a Vampire but making an ability useless in ALL PvE is not a good change.

    I agree, but too many people used mist form very publicly to cheese content. Now, in those people's defense, I'm not sure what the "right" answer is either, but I was pretty sure 12 vampires being REQUIRED to pass vRG HM was not what the devs intended.
  • ajkb78
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    Vampire used to be something that was a straight win for everyone. The extra recovery was nice, the undeath passive was great, and the increased fire damage was basically negligible except for VSS dragon breath.

    Since then it's a straight disadvantage for almost everyone, at least in PVE. And it's seen numerous nerfs even since the badly received rework in Greymoor. (I mean, I know the chapter was supposed to be about killing vampires but ZoS killed them all off through nerfs...)

    Vampire should always have been an option, not better or worse than mortal, but different, and capable in all areas. It's about surrendering your humanity to the monster within.

    This could work by having 3 fully fleshed out vampire skill lines, and making it so that every time you increase your vampire stage, more of your class skills are replaced by vampire skills, and you acquire an increasing set of vampire strengths and weaknesses (in the same way as light / heavy armour). At zero vamp you just have bloodshot eyes but all your class skills ; at max vamp you have no class skills left, all your skills are monstrous vampire skills and there is no remaining humanity. Vampirism would be viable at any stage, though different classes or roles might optimise their vampirism differently.

  • ApostateHobo
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    Seems like somebody at zos is hell bent on making vampirism completely useless. Most people already only take for rp purposes, now they're taking the only usefull skill we have left. This is ridiculous.
  • ajkb78
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    Rex-Umbra wrote: »
    Not a Vampire but making an ability useless in ALL PvE is not a good change.

    I agree, but too many people used mist form very publicly to cheese content. Now, in those people's defense, I'm not sure what the "right" answer is either, but I was pretty sure 12 vampires being REQUIRED to pass vRG HM was not what the devs intended.

    It's interesting, in the patch notes there's a comment about it being used in situations where the devs were trying to ask players to adjust their strategy to deal with the situation. It's borderline snarky, as if it's players' fault that this change is needed, but I'm curious. No tank I know really wanted to become a vampire, because the cost increases suck, but they generally allocated a dedicated VRG tank and left all their others mortal. I know they tried a lot of options before resorting to vamp, but the damage didn't seem to be manageable any other way.

    So what is the adjusted strategy the devs were hoping we'd spot? What is the "expected" way of tanking the untankable damage in Bahsei (or for that matter doing the portals in HM) without being a vampire? Has anyone spotted it? Would be great if the devs would tell us next patch once it doesn't matter any more, or maybe even show us in one of those streamed events where they play their own content.
  • starkerealm
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    This runs contrary to one of their main design goals. They're creating a situation where a PvE skill is PvP only.
  • CaffeinatedMayhem
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    ajkb78 wrote: »
    Rex-Umbra wrote: »
    Not a Vampire but making an ability useless in ALL PvE is not a good change.

    I agree, but too many people used mist form very publicly to cheese content. Now, in those people's defense, I'm not sure what the "right" answer is either, but I was pretty sure 12 vampires being REQUIRED to pass vRG HM was not what the devs intended.

    It's interesting, in the patch notes there's a comment about it being used in situations where the devs were trying to ask players to adjust their strategy to deal with the situation. It's borderline snarky, as if it's players' fault that this change is needed, but I'm curious. No tank I know really wanted to become a vampire, because the cost increases suck, but they generally allocated a dedicated VRG tank and left all their others mortal. I know they tried a lot of options before resorting to vamp, but the damage didn't seem to be manageable any other way.

    So what is the adjusted strategy the devs were hoping we'd spot? What is the "expected" way of tanking the untankable damage in Bahsei (or for that matter doing the portals in HM) without being a vampire? Has anyone spotted it? Would be great if the devs would tell us next patch once it doesn't matter any more, or maybe even show us in one of those streamed events where they play their own content.

    My guess is using a Major Aegis set and sending a healer/tank in the portal. Bahsei (set) and Kilt are great for damage in content, not so much for survivability. Also the new tank CP (bracing anchor, MT on Bahsei fight doesn't need to run) and the note that Death Touch damage was reduced should fix Flame-Herald Bahsei for vet. I haven't run HM tho.
    Edited by CaffeinatedMayhem on September 20, 2021 11:39PM
  • Vaoh
    Vaoh
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    ajkb78 wrote: »
    Rex-Umbra wrote: »
    Not a Vampire but making an ability useless in ALL PvE is not a good change.

    I agree, but too many people used mist form very publicly to cheese content. Now, in those people's defense, I'm not sure what the "right" answer is either, but I was pretty sure 12 vampires being REQUIRED to pass vRG HM was not what the devs intended.

    It's interesting, in the patch notes there's a comment about it being used in situations where the devs were trying to ask players to adjust their strategy to deal with the situation. It's borderline snarky, as if it's players' fault that this change is needed, but I'm curious. No tank I know really wanted to become a vampire, because the cost increases suck, but they generally allocated a dedicated VRG tank and left all their others mortal. I know they tried a lot of options before resorting to vamp, but the damage didn't seem to be manageable any other way.

    So what is the adjusted strategy the devs were hoping we'd spot? What is the "expected" way of tanking the untankable damage in Bahsei (or for that matter doing the portals in HM) without being a vampire? Has anyone spotted it? Would be great if the devs would tell us next patch once it doesn't matter any more, or maybe even show us in one of those streamed events where they play their own content.

    Who knows tbh. I guess the tank needs to run Elfbane+Pearls on an ult gen build to have maximum uptime on Magma Shell.

    And then portal dps can take it very slow with shield spam and heck maybe even use Gaze of Sithis.

    No group on console has Planesbreaker yet even with mist form....
  • DarkPicture
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    CyberOnEso wrote: »
    You know they also nerfed the healing and shield reduction of the curse from Bahsei.

    That set is useless, you cannot benefit from a barley noticeable 15% increase in spell damage when you have no magic left.

    oh my god Porvalo XD
  • Lord_Hev
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    A more tempered response is to just make it so certain core mechanics just ignore mistform... just like other core pve mechanics already do...

    Just make certain dots, or all dots ignore mistform mitigation. Make mistform mitigate only direct damage.
    Neqamancer | Qaevir/Qaevira Av Morilye/Molag
    Tri-Faction @Lord_Hevnoraak ingame
    PC NA
  • Vonkarolinas
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    ajkb78 wrote: »
    Vampire used to be something that was a straight win for everyone. The extra recovery was nice,

    What extra recovery? Vampires take recovery debuffs at every stage up to 100% at stage for for health. As for magicka and stamina they don't get any extra recovery.
  • icAirborne
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    ajkb78 wrote: »
    Vampire used to be something that was a straight win for everyone. The extra recovery was nice,

    What extra recovery? Vampires take recovery debuffs at every stage up to 100% at stage for for health. As for magicka and stamina they don't get any extra recovery.

    Vamp had extra recovery pre greymoor
  • Avoranti
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    wow, what a terrible decision. I have a couple vampire tanks. I guess I’ll be deleting them now along with my DD vampires. I have 18 characters, all that money, time and such building them around vampire for pve just to have it stripped away. Might as well just removed the entire skill line now. It’ll be complete trash if this goes live.

  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    ajkb78 wrote: »
    Vampire used to be something that was a straight win for everyone. The extra recovery was nice,

    What extra recovery? Vampires take recovery debuffs at every stage up to 100% at stage for for health. As for magicka and stamina they don't get any extra recovery.

    Vampire used to get 10% (could be 15% but I forgot) stamina and Magicka regeneration at stage 2+. At stage 2 with the unnatural regeneration passive they had no health regeneration debuff but took 15% more flame damage.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • starkerealm
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    ajkb78 wrote: »
    Vampire used to be something that was a straight win for everyone. The extra recovery was nice,

    What extra recovery? Vampires take recovery debuffs at every stage up to 100% at stage for for health. As for magicka and stamina they don't get any extra recovery.

    Vampire used to get 10% (could be 15% but I forgot) stamina and Magicka regeneration at stage 2+. At stage 2 with the unnatural regeneration passive they had no health regeneration debuff but took 15% more flame damage.

    It was +10%. Originally, they just got +10% regardless. 1.5 (I think) added the requirement of having a vampire active ability slotted. Then Dark Brotherhood changed it so you needed to be in stage 2 to get the bonus.

    Honestly, if they're taking mistform, bringing back Supernatural Recovery would be a fair trade.

    Also, as random trivia, originally werewolf simply granted you +15% stam recovery at all times. That was changed in the 1.5 patch to require slotting the ult.
  • Vevvev
    Vevvev
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    ajkb78 wrote: »
    Vampire used to be something that was a straight win for everyone. The extra recovery was nice,

    What extra recovery? Vampires take recovery debuffs at every stage up to 100% at stage for for health. As for magicka and stamina they don't get any extra recovery.

    Vampire used to get 10% (could be 15% but I forgot) stamina and Magicka regeneration at stage 2+. At stage 2 with the unnatural regeneration passive they had no health regeneration debuff but took 15% more flame damage.

    It was +10%. Originally, they just got +10% regardless. 1.5 (I think) added the requirement of having a vampire active ability slotted. Then Dark Brotherhood changed it so you needed to be in stage 2 to get the bonus.

    Honestly, if they're taking mistform, bringing back Supernatural Recovery would be a fair trade.

    Also, as random trivia, originally werewolf simply granted you +15% stam recovery at all times. That was changed in the 1.5 patch to require slotting the ult.

    Ah yes, right! Wow, it's been so long I forgot about that. Remember trying to RP a vampire in my guild struggling with the old stage timers of 30 minutes from one to two, 1 hour for two to three, and 1 hour and 30 minutes from three to four. Old system since you got all the passives favored feeding unless you wanted cheaper Mistform, Drain, or Bat Swarm.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • starkerealm
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    Vevvev wrote: »
    ajkb78 wrote: »
    Vampire used to be something that was a straight win for everyone. The extra recovery was nice,

    What extra recovery? Vampires take recovery debuffs at every stage up to 100% at stage for for health. As for magicka and stamina they don't get any extra recovery.

    Vampire used to get 10% (could be 15% but I forgot) stamina and Magicka regeneration at stage 2+. At stage 2 with the unnatural regeneration passive they had no health regeneration debuff but took 15% more flame damage.

    It was +10%. Originally, they just got +10% regardless. 1.5 (I think) added the requirement of having a vampire active ability slotted. Then Dark Brotherhood changed it so you needed to be in stage 2 to get the bonus.

    Honestly, if they're taking mistform, bringing back Supernatural Recovery would be a fair trade.

    Also, as random trivia, originally werewolf simply granted you +15% stam recovery at all times. That was changed in the 1.5 patch to require slotting the ult.

    Ah yes, right! Wow, it's been so long I forgot about that. Remember trying to RP a vampire in my guild struggling with the old stage timers of 30 minutes from one to two, 1 hour for two to three, and 1 hour and 30 minutes from three to four. Old system since you got all the passives favored feeding unless you wanted cheaper Mistform, Drain, or Bat Swarm.

    Yeah, the 30 minute stage timmers were a nightmare if you were trying to do anything semi-serious, especially before they added Double Bloody Maras. You're stage would just gradually tick up to stage 4, and at that point it was just misery.
  • Rianov
    Rianov
    Soul Shriven
    This change really upsets me because one of my fave chars for multiple years now is my Vampire Necro i have been a vamp necro since pre greymoor and have remade the build countless times from dps to healer to hybrid solo play to group content i have tried it all sometimes in love with the build only for them to nerf vamp and i start all over they have slowly taken every skill from his build by making them less and less viable after this patch all i will have left is the vampire ult.
    The spammable doesn't do enough damage for its cost on either morph, blood frenzy takes too much hp in my onion, drain makes fights just feel longer and my caster has no need for stamregen (i used to use the one that built up ult but it didnt feel like ult gain fast enough to validate it), hypnosis was sometimes useful when solo but in groups or with a companion its pointless, and now ive completely lost mist as its only for pvp (which i only play on my night blade and templar) over all this makes me want to remove vampire from my char as i can easily use Frozen Colossus instead but the only reason i made him was to be a vampire necro so its sad to say but i think i might just stop playing him entirely.
  • Troodon80
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    As title.

    Since mistform no longer works against pve enemies
    I do think people are focusing a lot on the Mist Form changes themselves and less on this fight.
    Vevvev wrote: »
    Just realized something else. If this change goes live Meditate from the Psijic Order skill line with it's unique 30% damage mitigation while channeling would be the new "go to". Can even be healed while it's running!
    Depending on how severe the ticks are, it's only 30%. Bear in mind, that you're still taking 10k+ light attacks every ~2 seconds on top of the ticks. Those could be blocked (50%+ mitigation). Considering how generally mobile you need to be in this fight, it woud be better to just slot Revealing Flare and shield yourself through it as you move. Assuming hard mode damage goes down to current non-hard mode and regular veteran gets reduced, this should become a lot more manageable for tanks and healers without the use of Mist Form and, hopefully, without needing to be rooted in place.
    CyberOnEso wrote: »
    You know they also nerfed the healing and shield reduction of the curse from Bahsei.

    That set is useless, you cannot benefit from a barley noticeable 15% increase in spell damage when you have no magic left.
    Even if that were true... You completely missed the point of the quoted comment. Cyber was not referring to the Bahsei set, he was referring to the patch notes regarding the Bahsei fight. Something, it seems, a lot of people haven't read all the way through.

    I feel as though not many people have actually read the patch notes to their entirety, and as said above are focused too much on the Mist Form change itself as opposed to the thread topic, so I'll copy this here:
    • Flame-Herald Bahsei
      • Death's Touch now deals less damage per tick.
      • Decreased the negative effects on healing and shielding from Death’s Touch.
      • Grave Thorn now deals less damage.
      • Wraiths now reappear less frequently.
      • Your channel will no longer be interrupted after activating a sigil if another player activates a sigil while blocking.
    As an aside, I would also like to see a reduction of damage to Abomination bleed and Behemoth fire DoT.
    @Troodon80 PC | EU
    Guild: N&S
    Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
    Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics
  • Troodon80
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    As an additional note regarding the use of Mist Form. Another suggestion/request: please also "fix" the Kjalnar fight so that the tank doesn't take all four Abyss hits by standing in melee range of the boss (unless you're kiting the boss, Kjalnar will almost always be within melee range), thus requiring Mist Form or Magma Shell. Sometimes you can get lucky and have him just at max melee range (6-8m) when Abyss fires (Abyss seems to spawn around 3-5m in front of the boss), but the fight shouldn't be about getting lucky with your positioning.

    This change is relatively recent (something tells me this wasn't a specific change to this fight but rather an unintended change caused by something else), it wasn't like this when Unhallowed Grave was first released, and largely breaks this fight in terms of tanking. One of the rare exceptions where content has actually become harder over time (only other time I remember was Cradle of Shadows when the Hoarvers didn't go away and would follow you into Velidreth's room). I've seen any number of tanks just keel over because of this, and have experienced and tried to test it myself for potential ways to overcome it. Mist Form is one way to remove the "luck" element. If you're going to make Mist Form unusable, then please consider fixing some of the content that has since become reliant on it as a means to get past broken mechanics.
    @Troodon80 PC | EU
    Guild: N&S
    Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
    Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics
  • Bashev
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    I am really glad that they did not just straight nerf it, because then all PvE players will immediately accuse PvPers that the nerf was PvP related. If bosses do not complain it does not mean that something is OP, right :smiley: ?
    Because I can!
  • Spectral_Force
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    Come on guys, you're blowing this way out of proportion. This is obviously just a temporary band-aid fix until ZOS come up with a better solution before the patch goes live, right?
    ...This is just temporary, right?
    43etoepi7ot6.png

    On a more serious note, way to kill yet another skill in a Vampire's toolkit. Hopefully we can talk up enough of a storm to get this decision overturned, or at least get them to buff the skill line in other ways. I'm trying my best to stay polite here, but every patch it's looking more and more like whoever is in charge of Vampire development wants to run it into the ground.

    There's definitely a better way to nerf Mist Form (if you deem it needs nerfing at all) than by essentially disabling it in all PvE situations, right? Make it only work outside of dungeons, or against enemies below a certain amount of max health (read: bosses), or just nerfing the damage reduction? Obviously we wouldn't be very happy with these changes, either, but I'd rather have a crippled ability than one that doesn't function at all.

    Also, if it's meant as a disengagement tool, why does Blood Mist exist? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Elusive Mist gives you slower speed than sprinting (+30% Maj Exp vs +40% Sprint), so is this now just a Magicka sprint that removes snares and immobilizations while also preventing healing and recovery? Wouldn't it be better at that point to rework Mist into some form of instant-cast cleanse and add additional effects to bring it in line with similar cleansing abilities, like adding a while-slotted effect or an AoE damage effect? Because as it stands right now, you may as well grey out the ability outside of Cyrodiil.
    Edited by Spectral_Force on September 21, 2021 9:17AM
    I've unearthed the Legendary Antiquity of Mêlée Island and all I got was this stupid T-shirt!
  • code65536
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    Frankly, this change is several is long-overdue and several months late.

    When Blackwood was being tested on the PTS, two quarters ago, one of the most persistent points of feedback that was given to ZOS was, "the damage on the Bahsei HM fight is so overtuned that Mist Form is the only option that tanks have to reliably survive".

    Most tanks don't want to be a vampire. Most tanks don't want to mist through that fight. But none of us had a choice: you either use mist, or you can't tank Bahsei HM. ZOS had this silly notion that mist wasn't required for HM and that it was just, to quote a dev, "a strong option".

    That was nonsensical, of course. They peppered that fight with health-scaled DoTs, from the curse, from the colossi, from the behemoths, and with so much of the healer's toolkit being positional, that kind of DoT damage on such a movement-heavy and anti-stacking fight was simply not practical. And we told them that, repeatedly, that Bahsei HM was clearable only with mist form. The great irony was, the overtuned damage on Bahsei was designed to challenge healers, but they tuned it so much that it forced people to mist, which completely eliminated the need to heal through that damage.

    And yet, despite it being clear that things were not okay during the Blackwood PTS, absolutely nothing was done about it...

    Until two whole patches later. Honestly, the biggest problem is the atrocious balancing on Bahsei HM, which forced players to get "creative", which exposed how OP mist form was in endgame PvE. Yes, mist form needed to be changed. Yes, the damage in Rockgrove needs to be retuned.

    And yes, I'm appalled that it took them this bloody long to pull their head out of the sand on this issue.
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  • Troodon80
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    code65536 wrote: »
    Most tanks don't want to be a vampire. Most tanks don't want to mist through that fight. But none of us had a choice: you either use mist, or you can't tank Bahsei HM. ZOS had this silly notion that mist wasn't required for HM and that it was just, to quote a dev, "a strong option".
    I've said this over and over. But who tested this internally? How did they test it? Did ZOS QA and internal devs test this with godmode dev commands? Who on their team said 10k-15k (health scaling) ticks per second, with 10k light attacks on top, and healing/shielding debuff was good? At the same time also saying "Mist Form wasn't the intended approach. Enjoy it while you can."

    Previously on the PTS you could pre-emptively dodge the sickle and avoid the DoT, same thing with the bleed and fire DoTs from the adds. Then they changed that because they wanted people to take the DoTs. Mist Form through everything is the most brainless, boring, mind-numbing thing imaginable, but ZOS made it this way and then complained that people were overusing it. What did they think was going to happen with the Bahsei fight?

    Then it gets used in other content as a means to make it easier, maybe it's because of broken mechanics (e.g. Unhallowed Grave), maybe it's just out of convenience. But using Mist Form is worse than "just taunt and block." In Mist Form you can't apply your buffs/debuffs. You're just... a cloud. A very chunky cloud. A somewhat useless chunky cloud in the case of first boss in Dread Cellar. I fully agree that in most cases tanks don't want to be a vampire and use Mist Form everywhere, but ZOS did this themselves with this recent penchant for unpurgable, health scaling DoTs.

    Because for some reason this makes healers feel needed? Or something? But that's a whole different topic.
    @Troodon80 PC | EU
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